North Korea admits Nuclear Programme

[Famine]

Yahoo! News

North Korea has now admitted that it has nuclear weapons and has withdrawn from nuclear disarmament talks. Although they've admitted this in private before - and everyone sort of suspected - this is the first public admission...

"We ... have manufactured nukes for self-defense to cope with the Bush administration's ever more undisguised policy to isolate and stifle the (North),"

What the hell kind of defence is based around nuclear weapons with no efficient delivery systems when your opponent can obliterate you from the map with two missiles from a sub parked in your front garden - or from orbit?

North Korea & Nukes. Discuss.

(note that this MAY be moved to the Opinions forum - if things get too... opinionated )

 

[DQuaN]

Yahoo! News

What the hell kind of defence is based around nuclear weapons with no efficient delivery systems when your opponent can obliterate you from the map with two missiles from a sub parked in your front garden - or from orbit?

Do we know for sure that they have no delivery systems? It's the old 'mutual destruction' standoff. If you obliterate us, we obliterate you. It's quite a scary thought. I wish Nukes were never invented and wars were faught like they were in the olden days.

 

[Famine]

They have enough material for "several" nukes. My mathematics says it's about 8-10 small yield nukes.

They have never, to my knowledge, tested a delivery system which will allow them to reach clean across the Pacific to US land.


So what... when the US re-entry vehicles start dropping out of the sky, they'll nuke themselves to stop the US getting possession of any patriotic North Koreans?

 

[DQuaN]

I suppose they can always deter a US invasion with the threat of an attack on a neighbouring nation.

 

[sn00pie]

Why can't everyone just be like China - instead of building nukes to surpass the US and Russia, everyone should just try to get their asses on the moon first.

Take it step by step, you know.

 

[Famine]

I suppose they can always deter a US invasion with the threat of an attack on a neighbouring nation.

If they nuke South Korea, prevailing winds will dump the fallout on... North Korea.

If they try to nuke China a) there's a hell of a lot of it and b) the resulting Chinese reply - the largest army ever seen on this Earth - will last about 4 minutes and North Korea will be underwater.

If they have a go at Japan they'll struggle to hit it and Japan would SO carve it up it isn't funny. And the US would probably join in, from Okinawa.


It seems that "nuclear deterrent" isn't quite what it used to be.

 

[CFM]

The US military is stretched too thin right now, so both Iran and N.Korea are both talking smack because, essentially, they can get away with it. Iran announced today that they have no intentions of stopping their nuclear program whatsoever. Looks like we'll all be drafted soon here in the U.S. Oh well.

 

[///M-Spec]

In the past, North Korea's main line of deterrance against a possible invasion was a huge concentration of heavy artillery pieces arrayed along the DMZ. They have enough peices there to more or less reduce Seoul to rubble and inflict massive civilian casualties before airstrikes, cruise missles or counter artillery can neutralize them.

It had always been assumed that any outbreak of hostility between the North and South would reduce the capital and surrounding countryside to ruins within the first few hours. So really, the North main deterant has been holding the lives of the people living near the DMZ hostage.

I would imagine that in addition to short range missle technology based on the Scud-C and it's variants, they would try to deploy a number of tactical nukes which can be delivered via the large guns array near the DMZ.

North Korea has also thought to have bought long range ballistic missle technology from other countries, including Russia, Pakistan and China. In 2003, George Tenat told congress he thought N. Korea had an untested intercontinental missle capable of reaching the west coast of the US. Of course, this is CIA speculation and possible fearmongering. I would suspect not even North Korea knows if it can successfully test a weapon, let alone possess a missile that can cross the Pacific.


M

 

[Ev0]

Well, at least this news confirms my suspicions. North Korea had nukes all along, but since they have so few (as far as we know), they are of little use, especially considering they have no effective method of delivery (an airstrike is a laughable prospect considering they are the weakest airpower in the area using vastly outdated aircraft, and if they have ballistic missiles, the technology is probably second hand, and therefore outdated and obsolete).

And I think the possibility of S. Korea getting nuked is virtually non existant, since as stated before, one good north wind, and they are just shooting themselves in the foot.

 

[Carl.]

The only way I'd seen a possible use of a nuke missile by North Korea would be as some sort of kamikaze last resort in case of an invasion... not gonna happen.

Personnaly, I'd be more worried about a scenario where a bomb quietly leave Asia by cargo... what's the size of a modern nuke? Does it emit a lot of radiations?

 

[///M-Spec]

While I agree right now, North Korea is not a huge military threat to the US or even a neighbor like Japan, I find it hard to downplay or dismiss their ability to wreck havoc on their penisula. If I were a Korean living in Seoul, I would certainly not brush these throughts aside so easily. There is no doubt that millions of innocent Korean lives are at stake here. There are more than 10 million people living in Seoul alone and North Korea does not need a nuclear weapon to inflict devastating casualities there.

And what will happen in 5 years? or 10? Even a country like North Korea will figure out a efficient way of delivering a weapon eventually. A missle shield doesn't sound like such a bad idea, doesn't it?


M

 

[Danoff]

"We ... have manufactured nukes for self-defense to cope with the Bush administration's ever more undisguised policy to isolate and stifle the (North),"

I love it - capitalizing on popular disdain for Bush to justify nuclear weapons. It's very thinly veiled.

These NK guys are becoming more and more of a problem, and they don't seem to want to listen to diplomacy... things could get messy down the road, but I imagine that the economic battle can still do some damage.

 

[///M-Spec]

Personnaly, I'd be more worried about a scenario where a bomb quietly leave Asia by cargo... what's the size of a modern nuke? Does it emit a lot of radiations?

As am I.

I am not an expert on these things, but I do know a modern nuke runs the gamut of sizes and yields, and they can be very small indeed. Miniaturization of components are perhaps the scariest of nuclear secrets. A .1-.05 kiloton device can be carried in someone's backpack and weigh only about ~120 lbs. These are the infamous "suitcase nukes" the former Soviet Union created for its special forces units. Other weapons of lesser yield are small enough to be deployed in artillery shells, the so-called "tactical nukes" intended for troop concentrations.

I'm not very knowledgable about detection methods, however. I've avoided researching this kind of stuff in the past because it is a scary and depressing subject.

EDIT: And just because N. Korea may have a few weapons doesn't mean they've successfully made them small enough to move discreetly. I would guess their devices are large, primative and fragile. Not some you can slap a label on that says "Love, Pyongyang XXXOOO" and FedEx to the White House or NY Port Authority.


M

 

[Carl.]

but I imagine that the economic battle can still do some damage.

Like the 2 millions of deaths due to starvation in the late 90s? 👍 (although starvation was initially started by droughts and floods). Even after that, dissidence was kept to marginal levels in its population by media control and harsh, oppressive measures.
The weird thing is that its population is so much isolated from the rest of the world that a vast majority of them still genuinely revere their leader.

 

[Carl.]

I'm not very knowledgable about detection methods, however. I've avoided researching this kind of stuff in the past because it is a scary and depressing subject.

I agree, I wish I could easily dismiss the idea. There's a small step from staying alert to being paranoiac, but given the current situation, I think this is more of a threat than russia ever was, from North Korea or the middle-east.

 

[ExigeEvan]

If America do launch an attack on NK whether nuclear or conventional you can guarantee there will be dozens of anti-missile ships, vehicles and planes ready to shoot down any missile launched. But then again, if they were to somehow launch a missile (possibly from an island base towards Japan?) they would pause a significant threat.

And you can be assured that Japan will not be happy if Amrica starts a war that puts Japan directley in danger.

 

[///M-Spec]

If America do launch an attack on NK whether nuclear or conventional you can guarantee there will be dozens of anti-missile ships, vehicles and planes ready to shoot down any missile launched.

I seriously doubt it. Cruise missles like the Tomahawk are very hard to shoot down even with state of the art interceptors and advanced radar systems. Their operating altitudes make it hard for even the best look-down shoot down systems like in the F15 or MiG-31 to aquire one. N. Korea's air defenses are largely based on the old Soviet paradigm of central radar control optimized against against high flying bombers and is not very different from Iraq's. And we know how effective Iraq's system was against US air power.

But then again, if they were to somehow launch a missile (possibly from an island base towards Japan?) they would pause a significant threat.

Why would they bother with Japan before reuniting their own penisula? Are you familiar with North Korea's strategic goals? Any shooting war that occurs will start on the Korean mainland. Any threatening gesture towards Japan would only be bluster and brinkmanship.

And you can be assured that Japan will not be happy if Amrica starts a war that puts Japan directley in danger.

Not a realistic scenario, but thanks for stating the obvious.


M

 

[Tacet_Blue]

Ever the cynic, I'm not convinced by N Korea's latest announcement. Yes they have weaponised plutonium, but it is doubtful they actually have a working bomb.

The claim could not be independently verified. North Korea expelled the last U.N. nuclear monitors in late 2002. It is not known to have tested an atomic bomb, although international officials have long suspected it has one or two nuclear weapons.

When countries develop nuclear weapons, they make sure the world doesn't think they are kidding, usually by detonating one or two underground. The seismic shockwave can be picked up from any one of hundreds of monitoring stations, and verified as a nuclear explosion.
Of course with the exception of France, they like above ground tests and were the last country to explode a device into the atmosphere, despite being told not to

After its previous claims had failed to draw enough attention, North Korea now seeks to make people take it more seriously, create an atmosphere of crisis and make its negotiating partners pay more in order to persuade it to give up its nuclear capabilities

I agree with this person, it seems to be N Korea drawing attention to itself.

Standard protocol: detonate a nuke underground, wait for seismic evidence to confirm it, then admit it a week later. That way there can be no doubt.

 

[///M-Spec]

Ever the cynic, I'm not convinced by N Korea's latest announcement. Yes they have weaponised plutonium, but it is doubtful they actually have a working bomb.

I definately agree that this is more bluster on N. Korea's part while they desperately try to scrape up one working weapon. But surely they can't be far away? Even conservative estimates put them only a few years away? What can change the situation between now and then?


M

 

[Tacet_Blue]

What can change the situation between now and then?

M

How about a big fat pre-emptive strike, and a "Sorry guys, but we took your threat seriously"

Only joking, but it is a dangerous game they are playing.

For real change, I'd like to see North and South Korea re-unite. South Korea is about 30 times wealthier than the North. If the borders were torn down, and the N Korean people allowed to see what their country could be like, and that wealth shared, their standard of living would increase dramatically.

I believe the people of N Korea are kept in a state of fear, and have not been told that the cold war has actually ended.

 

[///M-Spec]

For real change, I'd like to see North and South Korea re-unite. South Korea is about 30 times wealthier than the North. If the borders were torn down, and the N Korean people allowed to see what their country could be like, and that wealth shared, their standard of living would increase dramatically.

I believe the people of N Korea are kept in a state of fear, and have not been told that the cold war has actually ended.

That is a nice thought, Tacet. And probably something the rulers of N. Korea would never, ever let happen. This is a country that tells their people their leader is descended from divinity and that Americans eat Korean children in their sleep.


M

 

[a6m5]

I agree with the Tacet's take. North Korea is probably just trying make it's position more favorable on the negotiation table for the termination of nuclear weapons program.

However, that does not mean North Korea doens't have an "delivery system". They can reach as far as Japan for sure. NK has already tested shooting their rockets on both sides of Japan(Sea of Japan&Pacific Ocean). Not a realistic scenario? Try telling that to Japan. If one of your major enemy test fire couple of rockets(fully capable of carrying nukes) to both coasts of your country, wouldn't you be just a little bit worried? If you are an American, that's like the former Soviet firing couple of rockets(i.e. big missiles), one to west coast into the pacific ocean and another one on the east coast into the atlantic. Now, what kind of crazy country would do that? What are they trying tell us?

Some seemed to think that Japan are somehow able to retaliate in case of NK attack on Japan. Unfortunately, Japanese Military are defense forces. As the name suggests, their weapons are focused on defending against an invasion, but 100% useless on invading its enemies. JGSDF(ground defense force) has no way of sending it's ground forces to North Korea, maritime defense force does not possess one carrier, and air defense does not possess an single bomber. Currently, Japanese law says, that even if we are 100% sure that North Korea is going to hit Japan with the nukes, say within a week, we can't take any military action to prevent it. North Korea can hit Japan with an WMD, and Japan will not be able to do anything about it. In my opinion, JSDF is like an handgun, that can shoot bullets with an range of just few feet, and you're allowed to use it, only after you've been shot, stabbed, or blown up. They are trying to fix this law, and I hope they will change it soon.

Other comments that caught my attention were, how NK won't nuke Seoul/South Korea, because of the fallout. Chances are, NK won't nuke the south, they'll deploy chemical/biological weapons instead. Also, they will not attack China. China is the only real ally NK has.

Finally, someone posted, why NK can't be more like China. Actually, China is the most dangerous country in the world. North Korea and other crazy countries can cause only so much damage. China could destroy an country or two ,fairly easily. I think they might be the only major country that is still trying to expand it's territory in the world today. Some say Chinese invasion of Taiwan could take place in few years. They are having run-ins with the Japanese on the regular basis as well.

 

[Minnesota01R6]

Good discussion guys, the only thing I have to add is that I feel sorry for the NK people who are suffering horribly because of their retarded leader. Just as saddam took all the oil for food money and used it to build incredible palaces while his people starved, North Koreans are dieing from starvation and disease all because their leader will not give in to the immense pressure from every sensible nation in the world.

As for the nuclear weapons debate, I don't have any answers. NK will be wiped off the face of the earth if they can be linked to an attack of another country, so I believe the real threat is smuggling a dirty bomb to extremists in the middle east who hate the U.S. as well.

 

[Ev0]

However, that does not mean North Korea doens't have an "delivery system". They can reach as far as Japan for sure. NK has already tested shooting their rockets on both sides of Japan(Sea of Japan&Pacific Ocean). Not a realistic scenario? Try telling that to Japan. If one of your major enemy test fire couple of rockets(fully capable of carrying nukes) to both coasts of your country, wouldn't you be just a little bit worried? If you are an American, that's like the former Soviet firing couple of rockets(i.e. big missiles), one to west coast into the pacific ocean and another one on the east coast into the atlantic. Now, what kind of crazy country would do that? What are they trying tell us?

Some seemed to think that Japan are somehow able to retaliate in case of NK attack on Japan. Unfortunately, Japanese Military are defense forces. As the name suggests, their weapons are focused on defending against an invasion, but 100% useless on invading its enemies. JGSDF(ground defense force) has no way of sending it's ground forces to North Korea, maritime defense force does not possess one carrier, and air defense does not possess an single bomber. Currently, Japanese law says, that even if we are 100% sure that North Korea is going to hit Japan with the nukes, say within a week, we can't take any military action to prevent it. North Korea can hit Japan with an WMD, and Japan will not be able to do anything about it. In my opinion, JSDF is like an handgun, that can shoot bullets with an range of just few feet, and you're allowed to use it, only after you've been shot, stabbed, or blown up. They are trying to fix this law, and I hope they will change it soon.

I'm sure that if Japan were attacked or under an extreme threat from NK, the US bases in the region would help them out. Otherwise, I could certainly see Japan launching attacks on NK if nobody else would, and if a big enough threat would warrant such actions. The Japanese do have a large force of F-2 (a Japanese version of the F-16) aircraft, which are very capable strike aircraft that could probably do significant damage to facilities, such as, a nuclear missle silo.

Finally, someone posted, why NK can't be more like China. Actually, China is the most dangerous country in the world. North Korea and other crazy countries can cause only so much damage. China could destroy an country or two ,fairly easily. I think they might be the only major country that is still trying to expand it's territory in the world today. Some say Chinese invasion of Taiwan could take place in few years. They are having run-ins with the Japanese on the regular basis as well.

I think the Chinese are becoming less of a threat. As we know, China's economy is currently experiencing massive growth, much of it thanks to foreign investors. I highly doubt the Chinese would invade Taiwan right now, since if they did so, they would likely lose many of the foreign investors who would not want to support a nation of warmongerers.

 

[///M-Spec]

However, that does not mean North Korea doens't have an "delivery system". They can reach as far as Japan for sure. NK has already tested shooting their rockets on both sides of Japan(Sea of Japan&Pacific Ocean). Not a realistic scenario? Try telling that to Japan. If one of your major enemy test fire couple of rockets(fully capable of carrying nukes) to both coasts of your country, wouldn't you be just a little bit worried? If you are an American, that's like the former Soviet firing couple of rockets(i.e. big missiles), one to west coast into the pacific ocean and another one on the east coast into the atlantic. Now, what kind of crazy country would do that? What are they trying tell us?

Some seemed to think that Japan are somehow able to retaliate in case of NK attack on Japan. Unfortunately, Japanese Military are defense forces. As the name suggests, their weapons are focused on defending against an invasion, but 100% useless on invading its enemies. JGSDF(ground defense force) has no way of sending it's ground forces to North Korea, maritime defense force does not possess one carrier, and air defense does not possess an single bomber. Currently, Japanese law says, that even if we are 100% sure that North Korea is going to hit Japan with the nukes, say within a week, we can't take any military action to prevent it. North Korea can hit Japan with an WMD, and Japan will not be able to do anything about it. In my opinion, JSDF is like an handgun, that can shoot bullets with an range of just few feet, and you're allowed to use it, only after you've been shot, stabbed, or blown up. They are trying to fix this law, and I hope they will change it soon.

Other comments that caught my attention were, how NK won't nuke Seoul/South Korea, because of the fallout. Chances are, NK won't nuke the south, they'll deploy chemical/biological weapons instead. Also, they will not attack China. China is the only real ally NK has.

Yes, I would be worried, because it is possible. But still highly unlikely. If N. Korea is going to threaten anyone, it would be the South because it is more capable of following up on a threat there. And I'll tell you why a North Korean attack on Japan, especially one involving nuclear weapons, is highly unlikely: everything to lose and nothing to gain.

N. Korea's leadership is crazy, but not stupid. There is no reason to attack Japan because they cannot possibly gain anything from an actual war with Japan and the world would put an end to N. Korea if they tried.

Even if they attacked with nuclear weapons, the second they do, the security council for call a resolution authorizing any force nessessary to remove the N. Korea government. I do not think there is a single country on the council that would not sign it (China may abstain from voting, but not veto) and it would pass within hours of any event.

So now N.Korea has attacked a country across a sea and is at war. It has half a million hostile RoK forces to the south (plus US Army), the world's most advanced navy off their shores and a great big sea between it and Japan which it would have absolutely ZERO chance of successfully invading because the US and Japanese navy would sink every ship in the invasion force within hours.

Worse yet for them, the entire world is going to sit back an watch Japan's largest military ally, the United States turn everything north of the 38th parallel into something that looks like the surface of the moon, quite possibly, with nuclear weapons of their own. (which, in case some of you are too young to remember the Cold War, the US has more than enough to destroy the world several times over)

It is not realistic because it is a certain total loss for N. Korea. The missle test over Japan was nothing but empty blustering.

It is also not realistic for the United States to start a shooting war in the Korea penisula for the very reasons I pointed out in the my first post.


M

 

[a6m5]

I'm sure that if Japan were attacked or under an extreme threat from NK, the US bases in the region would help them out. Otherwise, I could certainly see Japan launching attacks on NK if nobody else would, and if a big enough threat would warrant such actions. The Japanese do have a large force of F-2 (a Japanese version of the F-16) aircraft, which are very capable strike aircraft that could probably do significant damage to facilities, such as, a nuclear missle silo.

I do agree that U.S. will back South Korea and Japan, if there was an North Korean attack. Only problem I see there is that Japanese defense being heavily dependant on favor of another country. I don't believe S. Korea has this problem.

I don't know the exact number of F-2s(Japanese version F-16s) JASDF has. They also have F-15s & F-4s, which should be able to handle more loads than the F-2s. If all Japan wanted to do is to strike specific facility or two, I agree that these jets will be sufficient. I just hope the target is not buried underground.

I think the Chinese are becoming less of a threat. As we know, China's economy is currently experiencing massive growth, much of it thanks to foreign investors. I highly doubt the Chinese would invade Taiwan right now, since if they did so, they would likely lose many of the foreign investors who would not want to support a nation of warmongerers.

You would think so, but as far as Taiwan is concerned, that is not the case. As far as Japan is concerned, Chinese threat is actually getting worse lately. Also, country like France is always looking to deal with countries such as China, as long as it is profittable. They would sell the hi-tech weapons to China, if law allowed them to(IMO). I don't know how accurate this infomation is, but I've heard that France and Germany were still doing business with Sadam Hussein, before he was taken out of power. If that's the case, I get the feeling they'll do business with anybody as long as it's good for their economy.

Yes, I would be worried, because it is possible. But still highly unlikely. If N. Korea is going to threaten anyone, it would be the South because it is more capable of following up on a threat there. And I'll tell you why a North Korean attack on Japan, especially one involving nuclear weapons, is highly unlikely: everything to lose and nothing to gain.

N. Korea's leadership is crazy, but not stupid. There is no reason to attack Japan because they cannot possibly gain anything from an actual war with Japan and the world would put an end to N. Korea if they tried.

Even if they attacked with nuclear weapons, the second they do, the security council for call a resolution authorizing any force nessessary to remove the N. Korea government. I do not think there is a single country on the council that would not sign it (China may abstain from voting, but not veto) and it would pass within hours of any event.

So now N.Korea has attacked a country across a sea and is at war. It has half a million hostile RoK forces to the south (plus US Army), the world's most advanced navy off their shores and a great big sea between it and Japan which it would have absolutely ZERO chance of successfully invading because the US and Japanese navy would sink every ship in the invasion force within hours.

Worse yet for them, the entire world is going to sit back an watch Japan's largest military ally, the United States turn everything north of the 38th parallel into something that looks like the surface of the moon, quite possibly, with nuclear weapons of their own. (which, in case some of you are too young to remember the Cold War, the US has more than enough to destroy the world several times over)

It is not realistic because it is a certain total loss for N. Korea. The missle test over Japan was nothing but empty blustering.

It is also not realistic for the United States to start a shooting war in the Korea penisula for the very reasons I pointed out in the my first post.


M

Yes, you are right. NK has nothing to gain and everything to lose by hitting Japan with the WMD. In my opinion, that's when your earlier statement comes into play. "North Korean leadership is crazy".

Also, I'm not sure if you are familiar with the history between the Korea-Japan. This is the second reason(for me), that makes an N. Korean WMD strike on Japan an realistic risk. Korea(both south&north) hates Japan, and Japan looks down on Korea. This is so childish and unbelievably stupid(on both sides), but it is true. Things between Japan and South Korea is getting better than in the past, but I remember as recent as in the 90's, Japanese car manufactures were not allowed an space at Seoul's International Auto Show. I do not know if this is still going on. From what I understand, there still are laws and regulations prohibiting Japanese this and Japanese that, in South Korea. If South Korea hates Japan this much, can you imagine how much the North despises Japan? Also, they had been kidnapping hundreds of Japanese citizens, supposedly to make them teach North Korean spies, how to act Japanese. NK claims kidnapping lot fewer numbers of people, and that they've returned all surviving victims. I don't buy any of that.

North Korea=Crazy, combined with the history of their hatred against Japan, makes WMD attack on Japan an realistic risk. If NK actually get attacked or cornered by South Korea or the U.S., chance of WMD attack on Japan is better than 50-50.

P.S. Sorry this post got so long! I wanted to make sure, I've explained why I think N.K. attack on Japan is entirely possible, while it might make no sense at all to some. I've seen many posts by you two( M-Spec&EvO) and do have lot of respect for you guys, so thanks for nice discussion.

 

[Ev0]

I think Japan has numerous squadrons of F-2s, and their fleets of F-4Js and F-1s are being phased out of service (I belive there is only one remaining squadron of F-1s). The F-2 is just like the F-16 in terms of it's role. It's a very capable multirole fighter, being a formidible air to air combatant, while maintaining excellent air to ground capabilities.

And the F-15Js are not very good strike aircraft. They have been optimised for air to air combat, and when combined with Japan's fleet of E-3 Sentrys (With upgraded electronics and radar), they make what is easily one of the world's most potent air defence forces.

As for Taiwan, I would highly doubt China would invade them at the current point in time, unless some huge, and drawn out event comes up, which would divert attention away from them, giving them an opportunity to attack. And I also believe China is starting to move away from purchasing foreign military equipment, as they are starting to produce their own, probably to help support their rapidly advancing level of technological expertise. Although as you said, nations like France will be there as long as a profit can be made, although I think that time could be coming to an end within the next decade perhaps.

And France did excellent business with Iraq in the past (I'm not too sure about what involvement the Germans had; maybe someone could fill me in). Lots of Iraq's airforce was comprised of Mirage fighters (Until they were either bombed or shot down by the coalition, or 'borrowed' by Iran when much of the Iraqi Air Force fled certain death at the hand of the coalition in Desert Storm). And of course there was the nuclear reactor the French were helping the Iraqis with, until Israel lauched their brilliant attack to destroy the reactor under construction. (Side note: the Israeli astronaut killed aboard Columbia was an F-16 pilot on that mission).

And I think we all know that Kim Jong Il is a bit crazy.

 

[a6m5]

I think Japan has numerous squadrons of F-2s, and their fleets of F-4Js and F-1s are being phased out of service (I belive there is only one remaining squadron of F-1s). The F-2 is just like the F-16 in terms of it's role. It's a very capable multirole fighter, being a formidible air to air combatant, while maintaining excellent air to ground capabilities.

And the F-15Js are not very good strike aircraft. They have been optimised for air to air combat, and when combined with Japan's fleet of E-3 Sentrys (With upgraded electronics and radar), they make what is easily one of the world's most potent air defence forces.

EvO, you know your jets. Yes, they are phasing out the F-4s & F-1s, replacing them with the F-2s. F-4J/EJ Phantoms are one of my favorite planes of all-time, so I hate to see them go, but JASDF must be one of the last countries to be hanging onto an "vintage" jets like that. I don't think F-15J's strike capabilities are as bad as you might think. While it's true that F-15Js are great at air-air combat(w/E-2s or E-767s), they also are also fully capable of striking ground targets.

.

As for Taiwan, I would highly doubt China would invade them at the current point in time, unless some huge, and drawn out event comes up, which would divert attention away from them, giving them an opportunity to attack. And I also believe China is starting to move away from purchasing foreign military equipment, as they are starting to produce their own, probably to help support their rapidly advancing level of technological expertise. Although as you said, nations like France will be there as long as a profit can be made, although I think that time could be coming to an end within the next decade perhaps.

And France did excellent business with Iraq in the past (I'm not too sure about what involvement the Germans had; maybe someone could fill me in). Lots of Iraq's airforce was comprised of Mirage fighters (Until they were either bombed or shot down by the coalition, or 'borrowed' by Iran when much of the Iraqi Air Force fled certain death at the hand of the coalition in Desert Storm). And of course there was the nuclear reactor the French were helping the Iraqis with, until Israel lauched their brilliant attack to destroy the reactor under construction. (Side note: the Israeli astronaut killed aboard Columbia was an F-16 pilot on that mission).

And I think we all know that Kim Jong Il is a bit crazy.

I didn't know about the Israeli F-16 pilot. That's pretty cool(and sad).

I also didn't know that French were that close with Hussein. French are not as cool as I once thought..............

 

[Solid Fro]

Let's not forget about the French made Roland anti-aircraft missiles, Gazelle helicopters, Matra SNEB rockets, RPGs, night vision goggles, and Mirage F1 fighters that were found in Iraq.

No wonder why France was against the war... Saddam was a great customer!

One more reason why I have a Boycott France bumper sticker.

 

[Anderton Prime]

Let's not forget about the French made Roland anti-aircraft missiles, Gazelle helicopters, Matra SNEB rockets, RPGs, night vision goggles, and Mirage F1 fighters that were found in Iraq.

No wonder why France was against the war... Saddam was a great customer!

One more reason why I have a Boycott France bumper sticker.

Oh yeah, like the US has never sold weapons to questionable nations before. And don't you dare try and use "That was a long time ago, we've learned better now" to pass it off.

I wish they had "Boycott America" stickers for me to use, but you'd all probably get into a big hissy fit if you saw a Canadian with one on his car.