North Korea admits Nuclear Programme

[Solid Fro]

There is no rule that a country cannot sell weapons to another. The problem is that France broke the weapons embargo that was placed on Iraq by the UN.

Go ahead, get a "Boycott America" sticker. Let's see how far you get.

 

[Ev0]

EvO, you know your jets. Yes, they are phasing out the F-4s & F-1s, replacing them with the F-2s. F-4J/EJ Phantoms are one of my favorite planes of all-time, so I hate to see them go, but JASDF must be one of the last countries to be hanging onto an "vintage" jets like that. I don't think F-15J's strike capabilities are as bad as you might think. While it's true that F-15Js are great at air-air combat(w/E-2s or E-767s), they also are also fully capable of striking ground targets.

Thanks for the compliment! But you'd be surprised at how many countries are still operating the F-4. Gremany, Greece, and Turkey, just to name a few, still operate Phantoms. I think Israel might still have a few in service (They could have been phased out by now perhaps). I know there are more countries operating them, but I can't remember who they are atm.

And after doing a bit more research, the F-15J is very close to an F-15C, which means that although it can be used as a strike aircraft, it's first and foremost an air to air fighter.

 

[a6m5]

Oh yeah, like the US has never sold weapons to questionable nations before. And don't you dare try and use "That was a long time ago, we've learned better now" to pass it off.

That's true. I didn't even think about that.

And after doing a bit more research, the F-15J is very close to an F-15C, which means that although it can be used as a strike aircraft, it's first and foremost an air to air fighter.

Yes, and Yes. I think F-15J was based on the F-15C, and I remembered reading something about how the bombing control and the brain of the plane was in one unit, so they couldn't just take out the bombing ability of F-15C. Funny thing is, I noticed that not many people know about this, and I suspect the Japanese kept quiet about it on purpose, not to upset those who are against Japanese arming too heavily.

 

[Solid Fro]

The F-15J is more or less based on the F-15A, not the C. The J model is more like the E model, lite, with only one pilot. It has hard points for bombs, as well as air-to-air missiles, minus the capability to carry nuclear weapons.

 

[a6m5]

The F-15J is more or less based on the F-15A, not the C. The J model is more like the E model, lite, with only one pilot. It has hard points for bombs, as well as air-to-air missiles, minus the capability to carry nuclear weapons.

I thought the F-15Es were two seaters...... I don't know anything about F-15A, but F-15J is definitely based on F-15C. I remember reading about it many times(from both Japanese & American sources). Only other Japanese F-15 I'm aware of is the DJ, two-seaters based on F-15D, if I'm not mistaken. I'm gonna google search about the F-15A, though.

 

[Solid Fro]

Yeah, that's what I said. It's like an E with only one pilot.

The J model is based on the A model.

 

[a6m5]

Yeah, that's what I said. It's like an E with only one pilot.

The J model is based on the A model.

I'm sorry Viper, but you've got it all mixed up. That's ok though, I didn't know that much either......... until I just finished my research.

OK, F-15C is a updated version of F-15A. F-15J was to be based on the "A", but was instead based on the "C". Also, I couldn't find one site that confirms the F-15J being based on F-15A(every single sites says "J" is based on the "C").

Now on the F-15E. F-15Es are Strike Eagles, F-15Js are definitely not like the Strike Eagles. However, during my search, I found out that JASDF purchased two Strike Eagles as experiment planes! Experiment are to be concluded in 2008, and if it's succesful, JSDF will finally have an plane with decent ground attacking capability.

 

[Solid Fro]

Maybe we are both right. But, I learned that it was the A model (from the Discovery channel).

Clicky on my scans:

 

[a6m5]

Those are cool scans, many interesting facts on F-15s. Thanks, Viper!

 

[Ev0]

Experiment are to be concluded in 2008, and if it's succesful, JSDF will finally have an plane with decent ground attacking capability.

They already do have a good attack aircraft, the F-2.

 

[animateria]

Also, I'm not sure if you are familiar with the history between the Korea-Japan. This is the second reason(for me), that makes an N. Korean WMD strike on Japan an realistic risk. Korea(both south&north) hates Japan, and Japan looks down on Korea. This is so childish and unbelievably stupid(on both sides), but it is true. Things between Japan and South Korea is getting better than in the past, but I remember as recent as in the 90's, Japanese car manufactures were not allowed an space at Seoul's International Auto Show. I do not know if this is still going on. From what I understand, there still are laws and regulations prohibiting Japanese this and Japanese that, in South Korea. If South Korea hates Japan this much, can you imagine how much the North despises Japan? Also, they had been kidnapping hundreds of Japanese citizens, supposedly to make them teach North Korean spies, how to act Japanese. NK claims kidnapping lot fewer numbers of people, and that they've returned all surviving victims. I don't buy any of that.

Dead On!! If you live there for a couple years you will experience it in schools, media, and by everyone around you... It is a crazy double standard in many aspects (hypocritical in many aspects)...

For example, Korean Schools (Middle and High school) are structured the same way Japan had done in the past in Korea (and presently in Japan)... Uniforms, student-teacher relationships... And group activities (a whole school doing a warm up exercise at the same time... I thought it was bizarre)... Korean kids to teens enjoy Japanese manga and anime to a degree that it seems like a 'colony' of that culture... But there seems to be some level of hatred that spills out in the way they talk about Japan... (Theirs tend to be more oblivious... Its just taught in school(home for so long, to hate Japan, its just natural...)

Go to Korea when there is a Soccer match Korea vs. Japan... You will hear a whole apartment (or all apartments) roar (people shouting) when the Korean team scores against Japan... (Once I thought it was a earthquake...)

My personal oberservation was from 3 years ago when I lived there... So they might have change a little bit but I don't think it will fade a way for a long while...

I find it odd that they tend to blame Japan for a lot of problems in their culture... If you read history book about Korea right before the invasion of Japan... It isn't a pretty sight... I think many of them today believe that before the invasion, Korea was at peace... but it is quite the opposite...

But anyways... Japan understates the stuff they did during the invasion in their text book (I heard that they barely have anything about it) And China and Korea are never happy about that... Always telling them that they are not amitting their faults... Which is true... I've also heard that many Japanese don't even know where Korea is... (If its true... Thats just hilarious...)

But NK announcing that they have nukes... That was a stupid move... I guess they are trying to gain attention again to gain more supplies from other countries... (While their TV twists the fact that they get help from other countries.. Outrageous...) Its like a little baby threatening that it will punch the adult if it doesn't get its way....

 

[a6m5]

They already do have a good attack aircraft, the F-2.

Ok, ok. Superior ground attacking capability! 👍

Dead On!! If you live there for a couple years you will experience it in schools, media, and by everyone around you... It is a crazy double standard in many aspects (hypocritical in many aspects)...

For example, Korean Schools (Middle and High school) are structured the same way Japan had done in the past in Korea (and presently in Japan)... Uniforms, student-teacher relationships... And group activities (a whole school doing a warm up exercise at the same time... I thought it was bizarre)... Korean kids to teens enjoy Japanese manga and anime to a degree that it seems like a 'colony' of that culture... But there seems to be some level of hatred that spills out in the way they talk about Japan... (Theirs tend to be more oblivious... Its just taught in school(home for so long, to hate Japan, its just natural...)

Go to Korea when there is a Soccer match Korea vs. Japan... You will hear a whole apartment (or all apartments) roar (people shouting) when the Korean team scores against Japan... (Once I thought it was a earthquake...)

My personal oberservation was from 3 years ago when I lived there... So they might have change a little bit but I don't think it will fade a way for a long while...

I find it odd that they tend to blame Japan for a lot of problems in their culture... If you read history book about Korea right before the invasion of Japan... It isn't a pretty sight... I think many of them today believe that before the invasion, Korea was at peace... but it is quite the opposite...

But anyways... Japan understates the stuff they did during the invasion in their text book (I heard that they barely have anything about it) And China and Korea are never happy about that... Always telling them that they are not amitting their faults... Which is true... I've also heard that many Japanese don't even know where Korea is... (If its true... Thats just hilarious...)

But NK announcing that they have nukes... That was a stupid move... I guess they are trying to gain attention again to gain more supplies from other countries... (While their TV twists the fact that they get help from other countries.. Outrageous...) Its like a little baby threatening that it will punch the adult if it doesn't get its way....

I agree 100%, animateria. Both Japan and South Korea needs to make peace with one another and move on. One good thing between Japan and S. Korea is that, there won't be an war anymore. Being able to say that, is an huge improvement in their relations.

P.S. Just to clarify, Japanese(99% of them) are aware of their wrong doing by their Army in the World War II. It is true though, Japanese government do understate what happned.

 

[///M-Spec]

Both Japan and South Korea needs to make peace with one another and move on. One good thing between Japan and S. Korea is that, there won't be an war anymore. Being able to say that, is an huge improvement in their relations.

P.S. Just to clarify, Japanese(99% of them) are aware of their wrong doing by their Army in the World War II. It is true though, Japanese government do understate what happned.

Not to spent TOO much time off topic, but the national resentment towards the Japansese was probably no doubt a result of the Japanese occupation of Korea. I understand it was a brutal one, where the Japanese actively tried to stamp out native Korean culture and assimulate Koreans into their own culture as an underclass of servants and slaves. Their customs were strongly discouraged and even their language was forbidden to be spoken around the Japanese. Japanese racial superiority was rammed down their throats so no wonder old feelings die hard, I guess.

I've seen many posts by you two( M-Spec&EvO) and do have lot of respect for you guys, so thanks for nice discussion.

Thank you, and I appreciate your input as well.


M

 

[PS]

Let's not forget about the French made Roland anti-aircraft missiles, Gazelle helicopters, Matra SNEB rockets, RPGs, night vision goggles, and Mirage F1 fighters that were found in Iraq.

No wonder why France was against the war... Saddam was a great customer!

One more reason why I have a Boycott France bumper sticker.

Wow, another war that France lost, and they weren't even being attacked!



And is it just me, or does this smell like the dawn of another Cold War?

 

[MrktMkr1986]

And is it just me, or does this smell like the dawn of another Cold War?

I disagree -- it is my belief that N. Korea announced this partly because they didn't want to risk a U.S. invasion. Remember, Iraq, Iran and North Korea are all on Pres. Bush's "Axis of Evil".

I remember reading somewhere that we already have some troops in Iran.

 

[a6m5]

Not to spent TOO much time off topic, but the national resentment towards the Japansese was probably no doubt a result of the Japanese occupation of Korea. I understand it was a brutal one, where the Japanese actively tried to stamp out native Korean culture and assimulate Koreans into their own culture as an underclass of servants and slaves. Their customs were strongly discouraged and even their language was forbidden to be spoken around the Japanese. Japanese racial superiority was rammed down their throats so no wonder old feelings die hard, I guess.
M

Yep, I've heard those stories too. There really is no excuse for doing something like that to another nation. 👎

 

[Max_DC]

I don't think that they will attack Japan because of the reasons, that were already mentioned in this high niveau discussion. I just wanted to say something I saw in a reportage (quality, no private TV): I've been to Japan for several times, and you see hardly any military.... and I've been driving around over 1000 km by car,... well I saw some military in the Fuji/ Hakone area and a US/japanese military base at the foot of the Fujisan but that was it....

Did you know that Japan has the most modern military in the world and the spends most money of all countries worldwide (of course after USA each time) ?

Especially their navy seems to have the latest technology and their ground troops are all perfectly equipped and the number of soldiers (can't remember the exact number) is not as small as I thought...

I mean ok, after a nuclear strike this high tech won't help anybody, so this info is kind of offtopic, but I personally was really surprised... silently Japans military grows and grows....who would have thought this 40 years ago?....

 

[Tacet_Blue]

Did you know that Japan has the most modern military in the world and the spends most money of all countries worldwide (of course after USA each time) ?

Especially their navy seems to have the latest technology and their ground troops are all perfectly equipped and the number of soldiers (can't remember the exact number) is not as small as I thought...

No, it's actually China that spends the most after the US. China spends $60Billion a year. At $42 Japan is actually lower than the UK.
More telling is that Japan only spends 1% of its GDP on its military which places it at a very low 138th!

One of the reasons that Japan is so advanced in terms of its computer technology, gadgets etc, is because they were banned from developing nuclear weapons as part of a cease fire agreement after Hiroshima, and plowed the money into technology instead. They have done pretty well 👍

The Japanese army has 25,189,438 soldiers fit for duty, yes that is twice that of the UK, but large amounts of troops doesn't count for much these days. Iraq had the largest ground army in the world one before 1991...

 

[Max_DC]

No, it's actually China that spends the most after the US. China spends $60Billion a year. At $42 Japan is actually lower than the UK.
More telling is that Japan only spends 1% of its GDP on its military which places it at a very low 138th!

One of the reasons that Japan is so advanced in terms of its computer technology, gadgets etc, is because they were banned from developing nuclear weapons as part of a cease fire agreement after Hiroshima, and plowed the money into technology instead. They have done pretty well 👍

The Japanese army has 25,189,438 soldiers fit for duty, yes that is twice that of the UK, but large amounts of troops doesn't count for much these days. Iraq had the largest ground army in the world one before 1991...

I thought it were 25,189,439 soldiers.....
Well, you seem to know it better... it was a documentary in a highly respected weekly reportage.... hmm about 3 months ago or so.... As for the numbers... I don't want to question them ( as you named them exactly and I don't know too much about it) but the tone of the reportage was, that they stay silent and get powerful.

I searched for offical numbers and found these ( official government homepage of the militay of Austria )

Active soldiers : 236.300
Fight-ready soldiers about 50000 (don't want to count them together, navy, air etc)

Well, I don't know how much is public.... the reportage was vague, but they seemed to know what they were talking about...

And by the way 1% of Japan's GTP is a lot, as we all know it is one of the richest countries in the world... Of course they don't focus on military as for ecample North Korea or some African states... it's the sum, that counts in the end isn't it ?

 

[a6m5]

The Japanese army has 25,189,438 soldiers fit for duty, yes that is twice that of the UK, but large amounts of troops doesn't count for much these days.

I searched for offical numbers and found these ( official government homepage of the militay of Austria )

Active soldiers : 236.300
Fight-ready soldiers about 50000 (don't want to count them together, navy, air etc)

Well, I don't know how much is public.... the reportage was vague, but they seemed to know what they were talking about...

And by the way 1% of Japan's GTP is a lot, as we all know it is one of the richest countries in the world... Of course they don't focus on military as for ecample North Korea or some African states... it's the sum, that counts in the end isn't it ?

Japanese ground military is not considered an Army, and it is called Japan Ground Self-Defense Force. Its' focus is solely on repelling aggressors from the mainland(or islands), and they are not equipped to attack other nations.

As for the numbers of Japanese ground troops, it was just under 150,000 few years ago. As for Tacets' figure of, over 25million troops, it's just not possible. Especially considering North Koreas' One million men Army is considered one of the largest Armies in the world.

 

[Tacet_Blue]

As for Tacets' figure of, over 25million troops, it's just not possible. Especially considering North Koreas' One million men Army is considered one of the largest Armies in the world.

You are right about my figures, they are misleading.
The 25 million is Military manpower - fit for military service:males age 15-49: 25,189,438 (2004 est.)
Not actually in the armed forces but available for draft.
Sorry for the confusion!

 

[a6m5]

You are right about my figures, they are misleading.
The 25 million is Military manpower - fit for military service:males age 15-49: 25,189,438 (2004 est.)
Not actually in the armed forces but available for draft.
Sorry for the confusion!

Ah!, I see. I was wondering, where the figure came from. It is very interesting, but in the U.S., I don't think they draft men with age over 26(I could be wrong). If the same rule applied to Japan, the figure of 25 million will be even smaller.

I want to add this interesting fact about Korean Peninsula situation and the "One million men" N. Korean Army. One million sounds like a lot, but in reality, their weapons are out dated and their moral is questionable. South Korean Army on the other hand has only around 585,000 troops, but when you bring in the reserves, the number is estimated to reach close to a million. Also, due to the much larger population in the South, if you bring the draft into the equation, South can balloon the size of their Army in no time.

After the Korean War, in a case of N.K. invasion, Souths' plan was to win back Seoul with help from the U.S. By the 90's, that plan changed to stopping the N.K. Army at the border, advancing thru the demilitarized zone, surrounding Pyongyang, secure the China-N.K. border, have dialogue with China, unify North and South Korea. No wonder North's been so nervous last few years, table really has turned. 👍