Obama Presidency Discussion Thread

[Solid Fro]

Hmm --One Guy Bush --used terrorist Crisis to effect regime change in Iraq and push an agenda --based on the beliefe that a Democracy in the Middle east would improve the whole region.

The result ?

Iran wants to Nuke Israel off the map ...while Europe gets rich selling them the tools of their own destruction .

I disagree. Iran came to the decision of nuking Israel long before President Bush's administration. As for Iraq... enough is enough. From 1991 to 2002, how many Iraqis died and how many UN violations did Saddam commit?

A humanitarian crisis? Yeah, I agree.

 

[Omnis]

Iran hasn't come to the decision to do anything about Israel. They literally can't. They are against Zionism, but so what? Plenty of Israelis are too.

 

[YSSMAN]

Well, we created the power vacuum for Iran, so its good enough for them to start throwing their weight around. They want to run the Middle-East, plain and simple. Things will get interesting when the Saudis and the Jordanians say "No."

Are any of you actually going to any of the protests on tax day? I probably will.

Go here: http://www.taxdaycoalition.com/

I might go just to see how many people actually turn out. I have the day off anyway... Well, I think I do. Meh. I was reading one of the local blog posts about it, was interesting.

 

[FoolKiller]

Ermm --why do you believe what you you read like its gospel truth ?

The truth --Factual matter is this NUT JOB --was Mad because his dog pissed on floor --if you believe his own WORDS ---

THE MEDIA HOWEVER has taken MIND READING lessons and used their SPECULATION on his MOTIVES --NOT FACTS --to say there is some correlation between his beliefs in Obama being anti Gun --and Glenn Beck being PRO SECOND AMENDMENT --as THEIR explaination on why he went NUTS .

While more extremist views are blatantly trying to say that Beck is to blame, what Olbermann, and myself are trying to say is that this guy is nuts, as are any other guys that do these things, but Beck only says they are blatantly nuts when it looks like he may have had an influence. Had this guy been a fan of video games or violent movies then Beck would have not been saying it is just because he is a nut job, but that he is influenced by these other forms of media.

Basically, I am calling Beck a hypocrite and pointing out why anything he says cannot be taken at face value because Beck only does what is good for Beck.

I never once implied that Beck is responsible for this man's rampage. Doing so would make myself a hypocrite.

I'll let the rest of your rant go, because it was all over the place. But it does appear that you missed my point. I only used Olbermann because it was the only video of Beck's comments going both ways that I could find at the time.





In regard to President Obama:

He ordered his first kill command this past weekend, and I believe it was the proper decision. This gives me a glimmer of hope that he will not back down on this kind of activity. I am now hopeful that his calls to meet with other nations involved in shipping in the region will be so that he can tell them to stop paying the pirates because he is not sending naval ships in for anyone but US citizens.

That said, I think it important to look at comments made by Ron Paul on October 10.

Mr. PAUL. Mr. Speaker, I rise to introduce the Air Piracy Reprisal and Capture Act of 2001 and the September 11 Marque and Reprisal Act of 2001. The Air Piracy Reprisal and Capture Act of 2001 updates the federal definition of ``piracy'' to include acts committed in the skies. The September 11 Marque and Reprisal Act of 2001 provides Congressional authorization for the President to issue letters of marque and reprisal to appropriate parties to seize the person and property of Osama bin Laden and any other individual responsible for the terrorist attacks of September 11. Authority to grant letters of marque and reprisal are provided for in the Constitution as a means of allowing Congress to deal with aggressive actions where a formal declaration of war against a foreign power is problematic, Originally intended to deal with piracy, letters of marque and reprisal represent an appropriate response to the piracy of the twentieth century: hijacking terrorism.

Basically, the US Constitution is already setup to deal with this. Now Congress and the President just need to follow it.

 

[Omnis]

Obama sinks to a new low: Using sound economic rhetoric to push insane, poor economic policy.

I present to you, Peter Schiff vs. Barack Obama:

 

[Keef]

Glenn Beck is on about Progressivism and how Theodore Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson were from separate political parties, but of the same progressive movement. That was an early time when many bad decisions were made, like *gasp* the UN. He started this bit of the show with an explanation of the total government/no government graph that was in that video The American Form of Government.

He also just mentioned how back in the day before this progressive thing came along, a "liberal" was actually akin to a libertarian. But nowadays liberal is a bad thing. I've already forgotten what he said about how that changed.

Apparently I can't type as fast as he can talk, so I'm out of material, lol.

 

[YSSMAN]

Silly Glen Beck thinking progressivism was bad. Silly, silly indeed.

Oh, yes, and your (his?) point on Liberal =/= liberal is true. Most of us are liberals, speaking to economic and civil ideas of government. As I recall, those terms started to shift around toward the end of the 19th century, generally when the idea of Liberal and Conservative (which =/= conservative) came about.

Hmmm. I'm surprised how he didn't talk about how many times the Republicans and Democrats have switched places politically.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=

EDIT:

Tea Party coverage has been rather funny today, on both the internets (esp. Twitter) and the television. Sounds like things haven't exactly gone to plan in some places, and apparently the

from the GOP takeover of the movement.

Too bad I'm going to miss out on the Tea Party in town today.

 

[Omnis]

That's because they're not tea parties. Those take place in december. It's supposed to be a tax day protest. A lot of the people showing up are just there for blind anger's sake.

If you saw Rachel Maddow's segment on it, I swear that show hit the ultimate low. Seems like MSNBC only exists to criticize Fox News and make fun of people. What a stupid network.

 

[FoolKiller]

Seems like MSNBC only exists to criticize Fox News and make fun of people. What a stupid network.

Judging by what I have had to do at work this week, you likely aren't the only person that thinks that.

 

[Solid Fro]

TAX DAY TEA PARTY!*

(*No GOP takeover, just an American take over.)

 

[Solid Fro]

MOAR!

THE CROWD:

GOP MOB TAKEOVER BY RIGHT-WING EXTREMIST FANATICS WHO HATE OBAMA CUZ HE'S BLACK!:

[NONE]

No anti-Obama people, no Right-Wing nuts, no crazy Ron Paul coots, just Americans.

THE BIG PARTY:

 

[Danoff]

It's cool to see people protesting deficit spending. You don't see that everyday.

 

[homeforsummer]

It's cool to see people protesting deficit spending. You don't see that everyday.

After the crap going on in protests around the rest of the world, it's nice to see people protesting peacefully too.

 

[Omnis]

No anti-Obama people, no Right-Wing nuts, no crazy Ron Paul coots, just Americans.

What is your problem?

By the way, none of these people actually did anything to promote the correct action. Where were the HR1207 signs? Lansing did it better:

 

[Solid Fro]

After the crap going on in protests around the rest of the world, it's nice to see people protesting peacefully too.

When real Americans protest, we don't need burning effigies and flags, riots with police, or spitting and shouting at those you don't agree with.

What is your problem?

There is no problem, thanks.

:gasp: My Republican hottie:

 

[Joey D]

If those people are so deep in debt how did they afford to be able to take the day off to protest?

I don't really care for protesters, no matter what side they are on. All they seem to do is reinforce untrue stereotypes for the group they are representing. Based on the coverage we got here in my area the only conclusion I can draw is that all right-wingers and libertarians are nut jobs who have no grasp of reality. Is that true? No not at all (although I would debate their ideology about some things). Plus I really do not see what this accomplished, ok you stood on the steps and complained, now what? Nothing is going to change and the government will keep on failing...no matter who's in charge because ultimately they are all politicians and are only looking out for who can line their pockets with the most money.

I paid the government and I'm getting a bit of money back from Michigan so I affectivly owed nothing. I think Benjamin Franklin's quote saying "in this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes." Just pay the taxes and go on with life.

 

[YSSMAN]

By the way, none of these people actually did anything to promote the correct action. Where were the HR1207 signs? Lansing did it better

w00t Lansing!

My Mom was downtown when they were doing the protests here in Grand Rapids, she informed me that there were quite a few people there. Good for them, I'm glad to see that people are getting out, having their forces heard. Problem is, like Omnis pointed out, I don't think they're getting it either. Lets see if they get active with their representatives and such. They want to claim that this is their own grassroots movement to rival that of Obama's, so lets see it get something done.

OH, HELLO, I'M FROM TEXAS AND I WANT TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT SECESSION

Really? I guess Rick Perry (R-TX) seems to think its a legitimate idea...

"We've got a great union," Perry said. "There's absolutely not reason to dissolve it. But if Washington continues to thumb their nose at the American people, you know, who knows what might come out of that. But Texas is a very unique place, and we're a pretty independent lot to boot."

Good luck with that Texas.

 

[Solid Fro]

OH, HELLO

Oh, hai! You have to use font size 7. Anything less is just not enough.

THE MAIN STAGE:
I get it, do you? Tea Parties on July 4th!

 

[YSSMAN]

Oh, hai! You have to use font size 7. Anything less is just not enough.

Meh, I just decided to change it to something a bit more liberal. Works well enough.

Politico had a very interesting story on Fox News and the Tea Parties from today:

On “America’s Newsroom” Wednesday morning, Fox News host Megyn Kelly declared that “it’s tea party time, from sea to shining sea.” A short while later, “anti-tax tea parties” rose to the top of the network’s Hot List.

In between, Fox News reporter Griff Jenkins — who earlier this week donned colonial garb as he traced the history of the tea party movement — reported on a tea party protest in Washington’s Lafayette Park. Meanwhile, Fox hosts Neil Cavuto, Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity and Greta Van Susteren were all preparing for their own on-the-scene reports from tea parties around the country.

“Can’t get to a tea party?” Fox’s Bill Hemmer asked viewers the other day. “Fox Nation hosts a virtual tea party — you can check it out on the site, a location of a tea party in your area.”

Nobody’s covering the tea parties quite like Fox — and that’s prompting critics and cable news competitors to say that the network is blurring the line between journalism and advocacy.

READ THE FULL ARTICLE HERE

An interesting read that certainly plays to some of the stuff we've been talking about with Hannity, Beck, Olbermann, Maddow and such.

 

[Solid Fro]

Meh, I just decided to change it to something a bit more liberal. Works well enough.

Something smaller in size... that's a Liberal for sure.

 

[Keef]

After the crap going on in protests around the rest of the world, it's nice to see people protesting peacefully too.

Most of us are pretty sensible when it comes to that. At least these Americans still understand the Constitution well enough to know their right "peaceably to assemble", as it goes.

YSSMAN, Glen Beck's message has nothing to do with parties. I'm not surprised you'd extrapolate that, you poli-sci student, you. Political parties and politicians in general don't change things. We the People change things.

 

[YSSMAN]

YSSMAN, Glen Beck's message has nothing to do with parties. I'm not surprised you'd extrapolate that, you poli-sci student, you. Political parties and politicians in general don't change things. We the People change things. They simply listen and do, with exception of course to their duty to protect the common welfare and whatnot.

Hey, its what we do. I could talk about The People's Party, The Greenback Party, and the Progressive "Bull Moose" Party here, but that only extrapolates things further. Your final point is sound, however. Makes you wonder why a certain group of folks didn't fair a bit better last year...

 

[Keef]

Hey, its what we do. I could talk about The People's Party, The Greenback Party, and the Progressive "Bull Moose" Party here, but that only extrapolates things further. Your final point is sound, however. Makes you wonder why a certain group of folks didn't fair a bit better last year...

Seems most Americans don't pull their head out of their ass until after the damage has already been done. Woops, we forgot all our history lessons, so even though pretty much this exact same scenario has happened to many a civilization, notably Rome, we just didn't see it coming.

Of course I didn't see it coming either. But come on, just 5 years ago I was 15 and more worried about riding my bike to the store for an Icee than considering my country's history and principles.

 

[Omnis]

People should have been promoting HR1207, not bitching and moaning about spending. If they were protesting spending, they should have had this nationwide thing before congress/Obama passed the spending bill, bailout sequel, and tarp trap.

 

[YSSMAN]

...I think we can wind the clock back a bit more than that...

In some of the writing I've done today on the protests, the total conclusion that I've come to is that while they have some understandable grievances, the message comes off in a sensationalized blitz that I find questionable in terms of longevity. For real change to happen, a single day of protest isn't enough. Otherwise, its a small blip on the political radar. Lets hope these people remain energized, and continue to actively engage themselves to make change a distinct possibility in the future.

RE: Keef

Have you read DeToquieville's Democracy in America? He noticed our short attention spans as early as the 1830s...

 

[Keef]

I haven't read much, no. I'll look it up.

I agree that this stuff has to keep going, but just one day will certainly get attention. Obviously more days will get more attention. It would be nice to overwhelm congress and the President with protests about everything so that they would have to change it.

EDIT: YSSMAN, I liked the graph you posted previously which didn't name names and didn't suggest things that don't need to be suggested. It's obvious you changed it because it wasn't blatantly suggestive enough.

EDIT: Ted Nugent? Talking about government accountability, and people being silent before now because "hell hadn't gotten hot enough", and political corruption, and non-partisanship, etc? Fedzilla, lol. Sounds like Ted is more than just a rocker. Dude is pretty well spoken.

 

[FoolKiller]

If those people are so deep in debt how did they afford to be able to take the day off to protest?

Either you are being purposely obtuse or you missed the entire point of these protests.

Either way:

Do they individually have a ton of debt in their own name? Maybe, maybe not. Does the government have well over a trillion dollars in debt? Yes. Since the government is not a business it cannot generate its own income and must take money from its own citizens. So, you too are in a ton of debt because you are an American citizen. Debt this big will hang around for a long time. And now President Obama's "deficit cutting" budget will still result, according to the administration's own figures, in a $9 trillion deficit in under 10 years. Again, government does not create its own income, so you, me, and everyone else who is legally considered an American citizens is responsible for that debt.

Besides, even if they do have individual debt people with a good job have paid vacation days. I get 15 every year. So, leaving work for a day means nothing to their paycheck.

Based on the coverage we got here in my area the only conclusion I can draw is that all right-wingers and libertarians are nut jobs who have no grasp of reality.

Got some links? We haven't added anything new to the media bias thread in a long while. Although there have been some recent things from MSNBC, Fox, and ABC that could all go in there.

Plus I really do not see what this accomplished, ok you stood on the steps and complained, now what? Nothing is going to change and the government will keep on failing...no matter who's in charge because ultimately they are all politicians and are only looking out for who can line their pockets with the most money.

If people see a problem and do not speak out about it aren't they just part of the problem then? Maybe this is partially about the fact that these politicians have been all the same and whether they have an R or D next to their title they still act like a bunch of crooks. Perhaps these people are not satisfied with accepting that the government will just keep on failing. If it completely fails at least these people can say they didn't just let it go quietly. Instead of saying, "What can I do?" they said, "I will try to do something."

Sadly, they are too little too late and I would find them all a bit more sincere if it didn't seem to be so directed at just the current administration. People seem to be forgetting that this trouble started months before the election.

I paid the government and I'm getting a bit of money back from Michigan so I affectivly owed nothing.

So, you came out with a null balance, but the government receives billions of dollars. So, where is the money that pays for the services that you use coming from? Someone else is paying for you to be able to pay nothing. That is not an equal and fair tax system as originally laid out in the Constitution.

I think Benjamin Franklin's quote saying "in this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes." Just pay the taxes and go on with life.

If we had an equal tax system that didn't discriminate against financial success and the government wasn't wasting money at nearly a trillion dollars a pop I would agree.

 

[Joey D]

Either you are being purposely obtuse or you missed the entire point of these protests.

Obtuse.

Do they individually have a ton of debt in their own name? Maybe, maybe not. Does the government have well over a trillion dollars in debt? Yes. Since the government is not a business it cannot generate its own income and must take money from its own citizens. So, you too are in a ton of debt because you are an American citizen. Debt this big will hang around for a long time. And now President Obama's "deficit cutting" budget will still result, according to the administration's own figures, in a $9 trillion deficit in under 10 years. Again, government does not create its own income, so you, me, and everyone else who is legally considered an American citizens is responsible for that debt.

What I find humorous about this is that many of these people protesting are Republicans or at least right-wingers and we had more frivolous spending under Bush. At least Obama's frivolous is for the good of the country while Bush's was in obliterate a distant foreign land. We'll always be in debt as long as the government spends money on crap, I don't care who's in charge.

Got some links? We haven't added anything new to the media bias thread in a long while. Although there have been some recent things from MSNBC, Fox, and ABC that could all go in there.

It was on the local news yesterday so no I don't have any links but I have to imagine all media outlets were the same. Pick the biggest nut job and interview them and there you go, you have the voice for that rally. We no longer get the newspaper because the Detroit Free Press felt the need to fail so I can't read anything with my morning tea.

If people see a problem and do not speak out about it aren't they just part of the problem then? Maybe this is partially about the fact that these politicians have been all the same and whether they have an R or D next to their title they still act like a bunch of crooks. Perhaps these people are not satisfied with accepting that the government will just keep on failing. If it completely fails at least these people can say they didn't just let it go quietly. Instead of saying, "What can I do?" they said, "I will try to do something."

Walking around with a sign won't solve the problem, all it is is loud complaining. It's not solving anything. I don't have the answer for what to do because I've just learned to live with the fact America is ran by idiots and will always be ran by idiots. The only thing I can do is move to another country although it's probably not much better. I think politician asshattery is universal.

So, you came out with a null balance, but the government receives billions of dollars. So, where is the money that pays for the services that you use coming from? Someone else is paying for you to be able to pay nothing. That is not an equal and fair tax system as originally laid out in the Constitution.

I'm not really going to delve into my personal finances here, but I think I paid enough in taxes this year since it all wasn't paid on 15 April. Anytime I cash in investments I end up paying the taxes right away, which going back has equalled quite a bit of money. So I have paid my dues and while I don't think it's fair I just accept it because I know no matter where else I go in the world the tax system will be the same but probably worse.

 

[FoolKiller]

Obtuse.

Good, I knew you were smarter than that. You had me worried for a second.

What I find humorous about this is that many of these people protesting are Republicans or at least right-wingers and we had more frivolous spending under Bush. At least Obama's frivolous is for the good of the country while Bush's was in obliterate a distant foreign land. We'll always be in debt as long as the government spends money on crap, I don't care who's in charge.

I agree this is not just about Obama, but your spending figures are wrong. The first bailout alone was already more than the entire cost of the war in Iraq, and almost as much as the entire cost of the War on Terror(tm) up to that point.. See here: http://costofwar.com/ About $660 billion in Iraq, $850 billion on Iraq and Afghanistan. First Bailout ~$700 billion. Second bailout stimulus (according to the Congressional Budget Office) $787 billion. This does not account for pre-bailout individual bank bailouts and auto industry bailout money.

If you think the War on Terror(tm) is expensive you should be choking on your beverage at this stuff.

Now, I personally recognize that Bush started this and Obama is continuing it. Where I think Obama has done even worse is to unbalance the tax system even more and begin meddling with private industry after the fact. If he did not think they could run their own companies without intervention he shouldn't have given them money to start with.

That fact that he is renegotiating the terms of the deal, without renegotiating what requirements must be met for them to be able to pay the money back (Goldman and Lehman are upset over this) is not cool at all and does scream socialist intervention.

Sadly, while typing this I thought of this:

Lando: Lord Vader, what about Leia and the Wookie?
Darth Vader: They must never again leave this city.
Lando: [outraged] That was *never* a condition of our agreement, nor was giving Han to this bounty hunter!
Darth Vader: Perhaps you think you're being treated unfairly?
Lando: [after a pause] No.
Darth Vader: Good. It would be unfortunate if I had to leave a garrison here.
Lando: [to himself] This deal is getting worse all the time.

Darth Vader: Calrissian. Take the princess and the Wookie to my ship.
Lando: You said they'd be left at the city under my supervision.
Darth Vader: I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further.

It was on the local news yesterday so no I don't have any links but I have to imagine all media outlets were the same. Pick the biggest nut job and interview them and there you go, you have the voice for that rally. We no longer get the newspaper because the Detroit Free Press felt the need to fail so I can't read anything with my morning tea.

I've seen it go both ways and have been surprised at how little in the middle stuff was shown.

Walking around with a sign won't solve the problem, all it is is loud complaining. It's not solving anything.

"The squeaky wheel gets the oil," comes to mind.

And at the end of the day many protests are a combination of things, not just yelling at your government. The press showed up, not all press outlets showed the loons, the message got into a lot of homes that hadn't heard it.
This isn't Mission Accomplished by any means, but if news coverage gets just 1% of the viewers to check out a Web site or rethink their opinion then it is a small victory.

I think politician asshattery is universal.

Which is why I constantly bring up the Constitution. It was designed to keep this to a minimum, but we haven't paid attention to it in a while.

I'm not really going to delve into my personal finances here, but I think I paid enough in taxes this year since it all wasn't paid on 15 April. Anytime I cash in investments I end up paying the taxes right away, which going back has equalled quite a bit of money. So I have paid my dues and while I don't think it's fair I just accept it because I know no matter where else I go in the world the tax system will be the same but probably worse.

I don't need to know your personal finances. I know enough from conversations to know you got an income tax cut (as did I) while others got a tax increase, simply because they made more money. It is discrimination and encourages class warfare.



Song lyric of the moment

And the trees are all kept equal
By hatchet, axe, and saw.

 

[Danoff]

At least Obama's frivolous is for the good of the country while Bush's was in obliterate a distant foreign land.

Obliterating foreign lands is constitutional. Socialism is not.