Online And Offline Grip/Physics Differences: Possible Online Solution

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Maybe this might interest you guys The replica was done on 1.09, grip real and offline, with the lap time replicated on CM tire + full running weight + personal alignment setup. See if the time can be achieved grip real online without any changes, maybe also try low grip offline and online ( spot the differences ) The replica is based on stock Corvette C5 Z06 on stock factory tires, with most of the specs replicated ( weight, power, gearing, suspension + alignment ).

Chevrolet Corvette C5 Z06 Replica
Tuned to replicate Corvette C5 Z06
Andy Pilgrim World Record at Willow Springs International Raceway
Comfort Medium / Goodyear Eagle F1 SuperCar​

View attachment 234617
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CAR : Chevrolet Corvette Z06 (C5) '04
Tire : Comfort Medium

Specs - Full Running Weight
Horsepower: 405 HP at 6000 RPM
Torque : 399.9 ft-lb at 4500 RPM
Power Limiter at : 99.9%
Weight: 1474 kg
Ballast : 60 kg
Ballast Position : -12
Weight Distribution : 53 / 47 - as in real life spec ( 53.5 / 46.5 C&D Test )
Performance Points: 502


Specs - Car & Driver Test Curb Weight
Horsepower: 405 HP at 600 RPM
Torque : 399.9 ft-lb at 4500 RPM
Power Limiter at : 99.9%
Weight: 1418 kg
Ballast : 4 kg
Ballast Position : -4
Weight Distribution : 53 / 47 - as in real life spec ( 53.5 / 46.5 C&D Test )
Performance Points: 505


GT AUTO
NO Oil change
Improve Body Rigidity ( NOT INSTALLED IN THIS BUILD )
Rear Wing : Custom Wing Type A ( OPTIONAL ) - INSTALLED.
Wheels : Standard or RAYS GTS
Car Paint : Torch Red or Black or Millennium Yellow or Bordeaux Red Pearl

View attachment 235587​

Tuning Parts Installed :
Adjustable LSD
Fully Customizable Suspension


Suspension - FE-4 C5 Z06 Corvette Suspension Package 525/714
C&D Test Ride Height
Personal Alignment
Front, Rear

Ride Height: 99 99
Spring Rate: 9.38 12.75
Dampers (Compression): 5 3
Dampers (Extension): 5 5
Anti-Roll Bars: 6 5
Camber Angle: 0.8 0.8 ( Front Camber : 0.70 +- 0.50 / Rear Camber : 0.68 +- 0.50 )
Toe Angle: 0.13 0.03 ( Toe In Front : 0.08 +- 0.20 / Toe In Rear : 0.02 +- 0.20 )


Alternative Stock Delivered C5 Z06 Alignment ( 2001 Spec )
Factory Setup more towards understeer
Camber Angle: 0.8 0.3 / 0.8 0.8 ( Most have 0.75 front and rear )
Toe Angle: 0.30 0.10

Alternative Street/Track Alignment
Camber Angle: 1.0 0.8
Toe Angle: 0.06 0.01

Alternative Aggressive Track Alignment
Camber Angle: 1.5 1.1
Toe Angle: -0.02 0.01


LSD - C5 Z06 GU6 LSD
Initial Torque : 18
Acceleration Sensitivity: 30
Braking Sensitivity: 13


AERO
Rear : 20 ( Max )

View attachment 235583​

Brake Balance:
4/5 ( personal BB) or for ABS 0 wheel : 3/4, for ABS 1 - feel free to use your preferred brake balance. I recommend to run 1 click higher at the rear.

Recommended setting for DS3 user :

Steering sensitivity at +1 or +2, all aids off, except ABS 1 ( if not comfortable with ABS 0 ) with 4/5 brake balance as starting point. Go higher if preferred, 5/6 for example.

Notes :

The C5 Corvette was one those cars that never gets old to look at I love the shape from the side, the curve of the hood, the short tailed rear end, the C5 just shows what a sexy woman can be in the form of a car

This replica is a stock car complete with stock tires replicated.

The power of the C5 Z06 was originally 385 HP when it was 1st released in 2001. Then the car went some changes from 2002 model year, the LS6 engine was upgraded and it grows in power to 405HP with 400lb ft torque, a good increase that also paired with lower weight than the base C5. The test curb weight of the car during Car & Driver Test was 1418kg, this will be optional. I used the heaviest running order weight at 1474kg, about 3250lbs. Weight distribution is at 53.5 / 46.5 as tested by C&D, this is reflected in ballast position.

Suspension for C5 Z06 comes in FE4 Package, different than the FE3 Sports Suspension which was available for Z51 C5. The front transverse composite leaf spring is 525 lb/in in rate, similar to FE3 Z51. The rear transverse composite leaf spring is 714 lb/in, stiffer than the FE3 Z51 rate at 634 lb/in. The Damper and ARB has been setup to give neutral balance, with FE4 Sway Bars Package taken into consideration ( 31mm / 23.6mm ). My personal alignment is used, using the factory range as a base. I provided additional alignment setup, feel free to try them.

The C5 Z06 comes with limited slip differential ( GU6 ), I have used some preload and medium lock to simulate the LSD, this gives much needed traction and stability around Willow Springs ( Big Willow ).

The rear wing is optional, feel free to install it. I simply like the look of it.

The C5 Z06 was tested and tuned at Tsukuba, Silverstone GP, Willow Springs ( Big Willow and Streets ), Red Bull Ring and Laguna Seca. The main aim in this replica is to replicate the lap time at Big Willow that was done on stock factory tire - Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercar. This is comfort medium in GT6 The lap time was 1:30.6s on 4th lap by the legendary Corvette Race Driver, Andy Pilgrim. He also fitted Goodyear’s DOT-approved “S” compound version of the F1 and posted 1:28.3s on 3rd hotlap ( feel free to try replicate the time using comfort soft )

The real life race car driver of the C5-R Vette ( Andy Pilgrim ) pulled the magical lap on stock Z06 C5 on 4th lap with OEM Eagle F1 tire to prove his point to a motorcycle magazine that pitted the Z06 C5 against Suzuki GXR1000 - both were tested by Kevin Schwantz - a main feature article of the mag. The test run were heavily biased in favor of the bike and the Z06 C5 was driven with TC Competitive Mode enabled. The magical lap was close to 4 second quicker than the Schwantz manage to pull off. I managed to replicate the magic lap with the replica I think I had some slow section ( 2 corners were hairy ) that could shaved another tenths or two at the very least.

Here is a quote from the letter sent by Andy Pilgrim to the Editor of the Magazine in 2003 :

"To the Editor:

I’m writing this on behalf of the Corvette owners and other sports car enthusiasts who encouraged me along this path. A few months ago I read an article in Motorcyclist magazine. The cover story was a track evaluation of a Corvette Z06 and a Suzuki GSX-R1000 with ex-500cc World Champion motorcycle racer Kevin Schwantz as the dedicated tester of both vehicles. I thought it was a very interesting concept for an article. After I read it, however, I had one major issue: I felt that the lap times for the Corvette were not where they should be and showed the Corvette in a really bad light. This opinion was based on my own experience with the Corvette Z06 and my testing of numerous cars at Willow Springs (the test track), even though the last time I was there was at least four years ago.
I received several e-mails from people who had read the article and wanted to know what I thought about it. Without exception, after I gave them my opinion, they suggested I go to Willow Springs with a Corvette Z06 and run it, to prove something one way or another. One of the guys I discussed the article with was Joe Policastro, owner of Grabiak Chevrolet in New Alexandria, PA. Joe not only suggested going to Willow Springs, but also put up the money and rent Willow Springs for a few hours just to set the record straight. Grabiak Chevrolet sells a lot of Corvettes and Joe definitely took it personally after having to defend the Corvette to some of his customers after they questioned him about the article.
The biggest issue I had with the article was the difference in best Willow Springs lap times between the Corvette and the Suzuki. Kevin managed a best lap in the Corvette of 1m 34.2sec and a best on the Suzuki of a 1m 26.6sec, a huge gap of 7.6 seconds. The major point of the article seemed to be illustrating how areas the bike was better than the car virtually everywhere around the circuit. They even used “Smackdown!” as the article title. But as a current professional car racer, ex-motorcycle racer and current street motorcycle rider, I felt this was unfair to the Corvette and to sports cars in general.
For our Willow test we managed to get the use of a totally stock Z06 with 1,500 miles on it. Ex-Toyota race ace Dennis Aase is a buddy of Joe’s and provided us with some of his crew to change tires in the August desert heat – much appreciated. For the first test runs I used the Z06’s standard Goodyear F1 tire. My best time was 1m 30.6sec lap on my fourth hot lap. I then fitted Goodyear’s DOT-approved “S” compound version of the F1 and we ran 1m 28.3sec lap on the third hot lap, just 1.7sec slower than the Suzuki and 5.9sec quicker than Motorcyclist’s time for the Corvette.
Incidentally, we used the “S” compound Goodyear F1 to compliment the Motorcyclist test, as the magazine had used an “S” compound Michelin on the Suzuki for their fastest laps. Motorcyclist also used Pi Research data to overlay the bike time with the car time and according to the times the car looked slow everywhere. With my lap time for the Corvette reasonably close to the Suzuki, and the acknowledging the superiority of the bike on the straights, I think the car would probably actually show quicker than the bike through most of the corners.
In the end we achieved our objective, which was to satisfy ourselves that the Corvette is a much more competitive machine than the article showed – even when compared to the top sports motorcycle in the world.
Finally, I would like to add that I have nothing but respect for Kevin Schwantz. The guy is still, I’m sure, a bullet-fast motorcycle rider and an accomplished car racer. I think he was handicapped in the Corvette for a couple of reasons. Firstly, he used the traction control. Even in Competition mode it can slow you down when getting really serious. Secondly, Motorcyclist put a different manufacturer’s tire on the car; they were not the OE tire and may not have been a good match for the Corvette.
In case you’re interested we have photos and data to confirm what we did at Willow Springs. The Corvette Z06 is an amazing car and deserves a better representation than Motorcyclist gave it. I think the record just needed to be straightened, for Corvette and for the many sports-car enthusiasts who shared with me their strong feelings about the article.

Andy Pilgrim
Corvette fan, motorcycle fan and Corvette C5-R team driver"

I have included the replay of the "magical" Lap at 1:30.6s ( Big Willow ) on CM tire + full running weight + personal alignment setup. Watch it and Enjoy



ENJOY

View attachment 235586

View attachment 235589
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ANDY PILGRIM :

Second from the left below, at ROLEX Daytona 24H, on the far right, the legendary Dale Earnhardt, 2 weeks before his passing, RIP.

Andy with his Speed World Challenge Cadillac CTS V and the hot Holly Sonders

I included a replay for reference ( 1:30.6s at Big Willow - grip real / offline ) and a review posted on car of the month thread :

@Ridox2JZGTE

Chevrolet Corvette Z06 (C5) '04 502PP - CM/CS/SS - ABS=0


About me:
You already know.


About the Tests:
All my lap times are shown in total seconds per lap, I use this method because it’s easier to calculate averages and other things. I run 9 laps on a track and keep my best 3 to calculate the average. I do all the testing in the garage test tracks, track grip = low.

I use a PS3 controller all aids off, abs according to tuner.


Big Willow
Ok, I thought this was going to be hard , I did 1:26.489 on CM, abs0, I don’t know why you were so enthralled by Andy’s performance. By the way do you believe in Santa Claus? No, ah then my real time was Best Lap=1:32.237 , Average = 1:33.122 on CM,abs0, you’re a pretty good driver my friend 👍, I need more practice with powerful cars on CM, I’m over powering the tires to much, it’s a little different than what I’m working on now (Schwimmwagen, 2CV, Sambabus, Carol). I tried with CS, abs0, did a little better, Best Lap = 1:28.355, Average 1:28.464. IRL I would have probable done 1:45.xxx, I don’t think I would have been too brave with such a powerful beast.

For the rest of the review I opted for SS, just felt I needed something safer to calm my nerves. First thing I changed the BB to 6/7 for SS, makes a big difference with abs0. The only real thing I could complain loudly about was the transmission, would have done a little better with one adjusted for this track. I’d like to be picky here but I’ll wait until Deep Forest to do so. The handling was very good, with SS ( with CM could use a steel rail on the track with a magnet under the car).

Deep Forest
I really wish I could find a fault here , it is a little gritty on the curves in the forest but not enough to complain, after 3 laps I’m starting to push it off it’s limits and when I do it’s easy to catch it and correct it. On my last 2 laps I went under the 1:23.000, very easy and quite fun to drive here.

Tsukuba
Same smooth ride as on the other tracks, ok so you can chalk this one as quite good.



Brakes:
I don’t see why so many people make such a fuss with using abs0, not as powerful as abs1, but definitely not that difficult to use, just a bit slower lap times, but let's not start that argument again.


Power:
What? You didn’t know you could upgrade the engine? I'll send you the game manual by FedEx.


MLSD:
Well since you don’t believe in Santa, I’ll have to say.....close to....... very good.


Transmission:
Yup, PD did include the option to modify this, Oh,... I see,.... replicas have the same values as the real world model and PD actually got this one right.


Suspension:
I’m jealous , yeah really, so I’m going to steal this one to put in my suspension modeler, I think it’s better than the NSX ’92.


General:
All jokes aside, this one is a real charm to drive, replica or not. DON’T DO THE 2CV, please. Take care

View attachment 238188

Please read the notes for detailed information on the replica 👍

 

[Jimmy_Pop]

I have a dear Kaz question on this subject. You are always going to be faster offline than online. An offline tune online will surely need refining, but an online tune works great offline.

Also with grip set to real, I've noticed higher grip in the groove than on low.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

I am currently a mechanic/tuner for a team racing at FITT BTCC Championship thread, which will have the 1st race within a day. The tune that I provide for my race driver @Lewis_Hamilton_ was done on 1.09 offline, and it works/translate well on 1.13 online with tire wear 15 laps race ( grip real on mine and his ) The track is Brands Hatch Indy, the lap time also very close between offline 1.09 ( mine ) and his 1.13 online with tire wear at less than a second difference on fresh tire.

FITT BTCC Championship

 

[332i]

I have a dear Kaz question on this subject. You are always going to be faster offline than online. An offline tune online will surely need refining, but an online tune works great offline.

Also with grip set to real, I've noticed higher grip in the groove than on low.

The grip isn't higher on the groove. There is just much more of a contrast between being on and off the groove. The groove is still less tacky than offline grooves. It just hardly impacts grip by leaving the groove offline. Online...you'll get onto the groove from pavement that isn't rubbered in and it is such a massive difference in traction it makes you think the groove is stickier online v offline. I WISH it was stickier online lol ugh.

 

[Jimmy_Pop]

The grip isn't higher on the groove. There is just much more of a contrast between being on and off the groove. The groove is still less tacky than offline grooves. It just hardly impacts grip by leaving the groove offline. Online...you'll get onto the groove from pavement that isn't rubbered in and it is such a massive difference in traction it makes you think the groove is stickier online v offline. I WISH it was stickier online lol ugh.

I just want consistent offline, online, and during a race/time trial physics.

 

[Johnnypenso]

As most of you recall, this offline/online difference in grip was also present in GT5 and corrected with an update. I wonder why it has resurfaced with GT6.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Since which version did it happen again ? I recalled long ago, when we had FITT Hot Hatch at Brands Hatch Indy, some tuners - including me did some test run session online, and the grip were the same as well as lap times ( sector times ) compared to offline, I think tire wear was disabled, but grip setting always on real. The cars drove the same back then ( I was on Seat )

 

[ColouredBadger]

As most of you recall, this offline/online difference in grip was also present in GT5 and corrected with an update. I wonder why it has resurfaced with GT6.

It did. A quick way of minimising that gap is by using the Low Settings mentioned here. It seems to do the update for PD, and when they do release said update for GT6 then 'Real' will be the one to choose.


I have done some more testing with the two grip levels. The tyre wear and fuel runs out in very much the same way when on Low than it does with Real. Both taking the same time to empty the tank and to get to 0 on the tyres. Lap times also get affected in a similar way when the tyres starts to wear down, i.e. 7 or below. This has made me come to the conclusion that there is literally no difference between Low and Real, only that in Low you seem to have more overall grip. All other aspects are identical to each other.

For me personally, this is the best way of playing online. It has the grip levels and the physics of offline and allows you to alter every aspect of the game with tyre wear, damage etc. For an organised group racing regularly, this could be the best way to experience the game as I think it was meant to be experienced. Just my personal thoughts and concluding thoughts on this Grip Settings dilemma.


I used these settings when online. I implore anyone to try them out for yourself and tell me how the game feels to you.

• Pick any track you want. I recommend a weather/time change one
• Set weather to dry, but time settings are up to you
• Boost: OFF
• Penalty: None
• Tyre/Fuel Depletion: Normal
• Grip Reduction: Low
• Visible Damage: (your choice)
• Mechanical Damage (your choice)
• Slipstream: Real

I also banned SRF, Active Steering etc. Again, this is free choice.


I think everyone here should try this out at least once and see how it feels to you. I'm sure you'll agree it feels pretty good online.

 

[vr6cas]

It did. A quick way of minimising that gap is by using the Low Settings mentioned here. It seems to do the update for PD, and when they do release said update for GT6 then 'Real' will be the one to choose.


I have done some more testing with the two grip levels. The tyre wear and fuel runs out in very much the same way when on Low than it does with Real. Both taking the same time to empty the tank and to get to 0 on the tyres. Lap times also get affected in a similar way when the tyres starts to wear down, i.e. 7 or below. This has made me come to the conclusion that there is literally no difference between Low and Real, only that in Low you seem to have more overall grip. All other aspects are identical to each other.

For me personally, this is the best way of playing online. It has the grip levels and the physics of offline and allows you to alter every aspect of the game with tyre wear, damage etc. For an organised group racing regularly, this could be the best way to experience the game as I think it was meant to be experienced. Just my personal thoughts and concluding thoughts on this Grip Settings dilemma.


I used these settings when online. I implore anyone to try them out for yourself and tell me how the game feels to you.

• Pick any track you want. I recommend a weather/time change one
• Set weather to dry, but time settings are up to you
• Boost: OFF
• Penalty: None
• Tyre/Fuel Depletion: Normal
• Grip Reduction: Low
• Visible Damage: (your choice)
• Mechanical Damage (your choice)
• Slipstream: Real

I also banned SRF, Active Steering etc. Again, this is free choice.


I think everyone here should try this out at least once and see how it feels to you. I'm sure you'll agree it feels pretty good online.

So basically you want online to feel like offline, you like the tire wear and slipstream on which is a plus but here's where I don't agree with you, you say low has more overall grip which is not true except if you touch the grass, when on real if you touch the grass you do lose grip until you clean your tires off. But here is where I really don't agree, you want online to feel like offline with low grip, because offline is obviously set to grip low so the grass and dirty tires are not affected offline, so you think that's better for online racing, which it is not, I think the opposite, I think offline should feel like online with all real settings, tire wear on real, grip on real and mechanical damage at least on light. But we can agree to disagree I guess, to each his own, I want the realist settings all around the board, not just online but offline as well.

 

[ColouredBadger]

So basically you want online to feel like offline, you like the tire wear and slipstream on which is a plus but here's where I don't agree with you, you say low has more overall grip which is not true except if you touch the grass, when on real if you touch the grass you do lose grip until you clean your tires off. But here is where I really don't agree, you want online to feel like offline with low grip, because offline is obviously set to grip low so the grass and dirty tires are not affected offline, so you think that's better for online racing, which it is not, I think the opposite, I think offline should feel like online with all real settings, tire wear on real, grip on real and mechanical damage at least on light. But we can agree to disagree I guess, to each his own, I want the realist settings all around the board, not just online but offline as well.

That was my aim, to find which is the most realistic setting. And as mentioned earlier on in the thread, the Toyota WEC driver equalled his real life times in the offline mode. So if the offline is so unrealistic then howcome he wasn't loads faster than real life?

From my research into this I have come to the conclusion that the Low Settings are the most realistic. Just because something says "Real" doesn't make it the most realistic thing to use. This is where everyone seems to have the issue. Roller Coaster Tycoon is supposed to be a Theme Park Simulator, but it's not. Just because it says it is doesn't mean it actually is. George Bush Jr. said he was the president of the USA, but he was just a retard in a suit. We all know this. lol... I'm venting slightly now, but I think you get the point.
It seems everyone has misunderstood me in this thread. I shall say it again though just for old-times sake. I am not trying to make online feel like offline, I am trying to make online feel the most realistic. This is based upon assumptions that Polyphony Digital make the offline game as realistic as possible, backed up by my times, the WEC driver times and even the Senna Time Trails being hard as sh** for some people, the Brands Hatch one in particular.

Making something less grippy doesn't make it real, it just makes it more slippy. As I said in my last post, the game has not changed at all. To expand on the point. If you go on the dirt you get dragged on, you get dirty tyres, you lose grip for the next few turns, up to half a lap if you go into the sand. If you brake on the dirt your car will spin almost uncontrollably. Tyres wear down at the same rate as when on "real" and they act in very much the same way. They scrub, they overheat and they lose you lap times after some wear. I fail to see how that isn't realistic.

Again, this has nothing to do with making the game feel like offline. If I wanted that I'd have never have mentioned tyre depletion and all of the other aspects I have talked about. It is to close the gap between the two, assuming offline is the most realistic physics engine (based upon my testing).
As I have said many times, try it for yourself. It's all well and good sitting there and saying "It's not real because it doesn't say it's real and therefore not good enough for me". You have to be involved and try things out for yourself so you know what I am going on about. Not to sit and belittle a well supported and tested point just because you disagree with one word.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

That was my aim, to find which is the most realistic setting. And as mentioned earlier on in the thread, the Toyota WEC driver equalled his real life times in the offline mode. So if the offline is so unrealistic then howcome he wasn't loads faster than real life?

From my research into this I have come to the conclusion that the Low Settings are the most realistic. Just because something says "Real" doesn't make it the most realistic thing to use. This is where everyone seems to have the issue. Roller Coaster Tycoon is supposed to be a Theme Park Simulator, but it's not. Just because it says it is doesn't mean it actually is. George Bush Jr. said he was the president of the USA, but he was just a retard in a suit. We all know this. lol... I'm venting slightly now, but I think you get the point.
It seems everyone has misunderstood me in this thread. I shall say it again though just for old-times sake. I am not trying to make online feel like offline, I am trying to make online feel the most realistic. This is based upon assumptions that Polyphony Digital make the offline game as realistic as possible, backed up by my times, the WEC driver times and even the Senna Time Trails being hard as sh** for some people, the Brands Hatch one in particular.

Making something less grippy doesn't make it real, it just makes it more slippy. As I said in my last post, the game has not changed at all. To expand on the point. If you go on the dirt you get dragged on, you get dirty tyres, you lose grip for the next few turns, up to half a lap if you go into the sand. If you brake on the dirt your car will spin almost uncontrollably. Tyres wear down at the same rate as when on "real" and they act in very much the same way. They scrub, they overheat and they lose you lap times after some wear. I fail to see how that isn't realistic.

Again, this has nothing to do with making the game feel like offline. If I wanted that I'd have never have mentioned tyre depletion and all of the other aspects I have talked about. It is to close the gap between the two, assuming offline is the most realistic physics engine (based upon my testing).
As I have said many times, try it for yourself. It's all well and good sitting there and saying "It's not real because it doesn't say it's real and therefore not good enough for me". You have to be involved and try things out for yourself so you know what I am going on about. Not to sit and belittle a well supported and tested point just because you disagree with one word.

Have you at least tried the replica of Vette C5 I posted above, drive the car offline and online with low and real grip, see which one is quicker/slower in overall/average lap times and maybe you can judge which one offer more realistic driving experience. It will take some skills and clean lap to get close / replicate the real life lap record. I have been building replicas since day one of GT6 release, and I did all of them offline and grip on real. I suggest to build as close as possible replica, preferably road car on factory tire ( the Vette above is as close I can ever get with the amount of data ) Racing car is not good for this purpose due to the nature of their specialized setup ( track/tire/event )

The current BTCC FITT Championship where I'm a tuner/mechanic in a race team also seems to suggest that an offline tune can work just as quick as when online with tire wear. I'm stuck on 1.09, thus I can't get online, so I build the Civic offline with real grip, and during testing + race online 1.13 ( by my driver ) with normal tire wear 15 laps, the lap times were very similar/consistent. Another tuner/driver tested the car offline and online :

On a side note @Ridox2JZGTE I drove your Civic setup this morning and wow what a car. I was hitting sub 49.5xx's both on and offline within a couple of laps. Throughout all of the races yesterday I couldn't even get the Ford into the 49's and that was even with Stewy or Brian pulling me along. Great work!

 

[jontikis]

My serie is on REAL grip and it's an endurance one; we race on race hards.

On hard compounds the difference is not as big as on soft ones so i would suggest you to try some test online with real grip; remember that fuel load matters online and on real grip! Most of the fastest laps on our races are made with not new tyres but with little fuel on; dunno how much of a difference it can make on a LMP, but on gt300 it matters.

Offline instead doesn't take into account, fuel, tyre degradation, and another VERY important thing: TRACK TEMPERATURE AND CONDITIONS. No i do not mean the wetness of the track, just the temperature! Racing with more or less clouds and at different times of the day makes a big difference in lap times when you race on real online.

I didn't know fuel load & track temperatures in GT6 can make difference in lap times...

 

[Johnnypenso]

I didn't know fuel load & track temperatures in GT6 can make difference in lap times...

Fuel load made a difference going back to GT5 too, but I'm not sure if the jury is still out or not on track temp, I think I've seen conflicting opinions in this thread about it's effect.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Track temp does make a difference even offline / test drive or arcade time trial.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Track temp does make a difference even offline / test drive or arcade time trial.

Have you done any emperical testing or is this based on feel?

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Have you done any emperical testing or is this based on feel?

I based on my test run at Tsukuba and Willow Springs when building HKS CT200MR I deliberately changed the track temp as I make sure the AYC perform well on cold and warm temp. Spent about 300km alone tweaking AYC at Willow Springs and Tsukuba. I can run at Tsukuba and compare 1st sector times quite consistently within 1 or 2 tenths, so I noticed immediately when the grip changed. This was on CM tire.

I should also stressed that the weather settings affect the grip more than the temp. The same temperature at 79F for example at Tsukuba when sunny and cloudy ( 25% to 50% ) still gives slight difference in grip due to tire heat changes. The difference I think is more on the way the tire heat up and down, not on maximum available grip. The cars that I noticed when this happens, the rear tend feel more secure are on the Corvette C5 Z06 above, Gallardo SL replica and HKS CT200MR. Those are the cars that started to experiment on time, temp and weather changes.

Running the Corvette C5 Z06 replica at Willow Springs at early morning 6:00AM, 8:30AM, noon, 13:00PM and night 21:00PM often gives slight difference in temp value even on the same time, changing weather to 25% or 50%, no rain and dry will give interesting result ( CM tire )

 

[Johnnypenso]

I based on my test run at Tsukuba and Willow Springs when building HKS CT200MR I deliberately changed the track temp as I make sure the AYC perform well on cold and warm temp. Spent about 300km alone tweaking AYC at Willow Springs and Tsukuba. I can run at Tsukuba and compare 1st sector times quite consistently within 1 or 2 tenths, so I noticed immediately when the grip changed. This was on CM tire.

I should also stressed that the weather settings affect the grip more than the temp. The same temperature at 79F for example at Tsukuba when sunny and cloudy still gives slight difference in grip due to tire heat changes.

That doesn't really answer the question Did you record the conditions of the test, number of laps, laptimes etc. or are you basing it on anecdotal evidence and feel?

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

That doesn't really answer the question Did you record the conditions of the test, number of laps, laptimes etc. or are you basing it on anecdotal evidence and feel?

I haven't done any recording of data, but you can start doing it if you are interested. I can't afford to spend hours just to do it, I have so many completed cars yet to be posted

I edited my post above, I noticed the temp/weather ever since I regularly raced in arcade on CM at Bathurst ( usually Ferrari, Cizeta and Lambo cars ) I often set weather at various settings. The difference is not really on cornering speed, but more on how the tire heat up quicker or slower.

The 1st corner braking at Tsukuba gives slight changes on my HKS CT200MR replica, the funny thing is when the weather is cloudy ( 50% ) and temp at 81F, the front tires can dig better ( the screeching sound is less predominant ) than sunny ( 0% ) at the same temp at 81F. You know I used ABS 0, so take that with a grain of salt

 

[Le_Manuz]

As most of you recall, this offline/online difference in grip was also present in GT5 and corrected with an update. I wonder why it has resurfaced with GT6.

probably because of version fork
at one point GT5 code was copied to make the GT6 dev branch
all of you that have played GT5 can probably say when that occured
just compare what was missing/not corrected from the start of GT6
it's a shame that corrections/additions were not applied to GT6 dev branch

 

[SavageEvil]

This is an interesting thread, I drive on real no matter what, I never use low. There is something about offline and online as I use real for both I am second per lap faster around RBR offline. Using my own tuned Camaro GT3 build I ran offline time trial and put down a 1:36'934, then I went online using the exact same car zero changes to it, RBR set to real once again and after 9 laps my fastest lap was 1:38'001. The car felt the same to me, but I had to contend with warming tires and fuel weight changes, 9 laps wasn't enough to degrade the tires even .25 of a point they were all at 10 slight degradation on the rears about .25% of a point.
My guess is offline the car is at it's best all the time, so tires are at peak temps offline. The weight of the car didn't seem to matter so much in my testing as after 9 laps I had about 75% of gas left, tire grip went up as the laps increased the rears increased a touch quicker as I felt slight understeer midway through late braking.

Camaro '10 GT3 special

580pp
533hp
1,350kgs
49:51 weight split
6162cc
486ft-lb
2.53kg/HP

Installed parts include front end aero type C, flat floor, custom rear wing(F,D,A) height 2 and width 38, wheels Rays 57Xtreme.
Full custom suspension, racing brakes, full custom transmission and differential, triple plate clutch and carbon driveshaft.
Power oil change from stock, Stage 1 tuning, sports computer, upgraded exhaust manifold, catalytic converter and intake, nothing else. Power will have to be limited to fit 580PP

Body: downforce left at default 15(change to suit your needs), weight reduction 3, carbon hood and window weight reduction. Ballast of 49kgs, position of -50.

Tires, my tires of choice are stock Sport Hard.

My transmission is still unchanged and auto set to 224mph, the only work I've done so far was tuning the suspension which is roughly 8% stiffer than the default auto set up levels but it is set based on weight split.
My settings are
F __________________ R
90in _______________ 90in
6.53kgf/mm _________ 11.14kgf/mm
Compression
5 __________________5
Extension
5 __________________5
ARB
3 __________________3
Everything else is stock setup. I used this because technically these are street tires and they don't respond well to stiff springs at all, you'll bounce all over the place plus I lowered the ride height just a bit so you don't have too much pronounced body roll, it's faint. The Camaro is one solid car, I love this thing but I also have about 12 other cars that I tuned to match the 580pp, 1,350kgs and no more than 591HP rules plus must use custom installed flatbottom which actually causes aero to affect the car, go figure?! I'm not the best driver and my cars all need transmission tuning but they are all solid performers all landing within a 1-2 second max time frame around RBR.

 

[ColouredBadger]

Using my own tuned Camaro GT3 build I ran offline time trial and put down a 1:36'934, then I went online using the exact same car zero changes to it, RBR set to real once again and after 9 laps my fastest lap was 1:38'001.

Try this again online with the exact same settings you used for your online lobby but change the Grip Reduction to Low. You'll be doing 1:36.xxx online with no real difference in the car's feel.

Post results afterwards.

 

[SavageEvil]

Try this again online with the exact same settings you used for your online lobby but change the Grip Reduction to Low. You'll be doing 1:36.xxx online with no real difference in the car's feel.

Post results afterwards.

Just used low edge settings same car same settings for everything else and got unbelievably 1:38'002 no changes in handling but I did notice that riding on berms aren't a death sentence but your car will still lose control all the same, took me 10 laps to get that time I was stuck on 1:38'061 for about 7 laps.

Offline mode definitely gives you optimum tire grip at the on set for the entire time you are driving, only thing you have to worry about is overheating the tires while cornering or non ABS lock ups. Low setting does exactly what PD says just reduces the amount of slip you'll achieve in green zones on the course, edges near dirt, berms, getting dirt on your tires all seem to be very when you use the "real" setting. I did all this using a DS3, I'm better poised using a wheel but I haven't had my wheel setup as I have school so it's a bit much to have that out.

Honestly I think PD should take that low setting out as it really makes no sense to have it, "real" punishes bad driving a good driver will be sharp and slowly push in danger zones as they feel their car can handle. Street tires are durable, I haven't used Race tires yet but 10 laps barely scratches the Sport Hard tires on "low" grip, less tire wear slightly though.

Low and Real grip settings do not mess with physics, it simply limits the severity of grip loss on low setting. Thank goodness and it also seems that offline and online physics are the same, I have found no difference in cars' handling and only tire grip is slightly more static(higher initial grip versus online dynamic grip) offline and the weight doesn't change. Offline without tire degradation and fuel depletion is a bit of a let down as it skews your testing by at least a second in lap times.

I'll try different cars but I doubt "low" and "real" will give any sort of wonky results out of the blue. As it stands I don't get magical speed boosts switching between the two. Did you get some odd results, this would require more testing. My online room also has no boost, weak penalties, normal tire wear and fuel consumption, heavy mechanical damage and real slipstream strength. Only change I did was to low, real track edge grip. Let me know which setup gave you vastly different results.

 

[332i]

Try this again online with the exact same settings you used for your online lobby but change the Grip Reduction to Low. You'll be doing 1:36.xxx online with no real difference in the car's feel.

Post results afterwards.

Grip reduction has zero to do with the tarmac. Nothing. Only in weather, kerbs, first few feet of grass, etc.

 

[ColouredBadger]

Grip reduction has zero to do with the tarmac. Nothing. Only in weather, kerbs, first few feet of grass, etc.

I disagree. The grip levels on track change quite a bit when you swap between the two settings. Three of my racing group's testers got involved in this with me and they all agree that the cars are more controllable with the Low settings and they feel less slippy on track. None of us went near the grass. All 4 of us, as well as 6 others, have agreed that there is a difference in grip on track as well as the usual off track...

If it doesn't affect the track at all, the how can you explain my times in the OP? I'm very, very consistent on the game and can do lap after lap within half a second, sometimes even less of a gap. So it has to be the grip on track that improved to allow me to go faster than the "Real" setting because I didn't change my cars setup at all.

CCR has done a night's lobby with the Low setting and everyone who attended (eight) is in agreeance that the low grip settings are dramatically better and it makes the cars more pokey and direct making better racing.

I still stand by these settings being the better of the two, and that they are the most realistic based upon my past posts on the topic. The main one for me is the WEC Driver who equalled his times in-game.

 

[332i]

I will go test it right now. BRB.

@ColouredBadger no difference at all on dry tarmac. Set my fastest time on real reduction first. Have been trying to beat my 1:29.644 at suzuka for the past 20min with it on low. Doesn't feel any different, sans the kerbs and run offs. There is so much traction on the tarmac runoff for t1 and t2, that I can barely lock the brakes with abs off. And you barely loose any traction on AstroTurf sections. The tarmac is no different. You merely had a very good lap and it happened to be on low reduction. Kerbs don't slow you down if you use/hit them correctly. They are not as slippery as people make them out to be on here. Road car, race car - doesn't matter.

It is the physics, not the grip.

 

[ColouredBadger]

I will go test it right now. BRB.

@ColouredBadger no difference at all on dry tarmac. Set my fastest time on real reduction first. Have been trying to beat my 1:29.644 at suzuka for the past 20min with it on low. Doesn't feel any different, sans the kerbs and run offs. There is so much traction on the tarmac runoff for t1 and t2, that I can barely lock the brakes with abs off. And you barely loose any traction on AstroTurf sections. The tarmac is no different. You merely had a very good lap and it happened to be on low reduction. Kerbs don't slow you down if you use/hit them correctly. They are not as slippery as people make them out to be on here. Road car, race car - doesn't matter.

It is the physics, not the grip.

Again, I beg to differ. My lap times are very, very consistent and it was the grip settings that helped, not the fact that I did a god lap. I can't do a good lap with almost identical lap times to offline if I had one good lap. That'd have been twice I had the same good lap in the space of 4 laps on two different settings...

The locking up brakes thing is irrelevant. You'll lock up every time if you set your brake balance to do it. I set my brake balance to never lock up even on 'Real' (F:3 R:2 or 1). So that makes no difference. You clearly aren't seeing a difference so there's no point arguing the toss. 8 people do see a difference, one person doesn't. I suppose it's all down to how you drive... Saying that, you'll never find something if you don't want to look for it.

 

[332i]

Yeah lol, I'm sort of consistent, too. We can see if that is true by going into a lobby room together. The locking of the brakes was one of the first things I tried and it is completely relevant. More grip = better braking, right? It is easier to test than throttle application. Are the brakes harder to lock up in either modes? Nope. Can I brake later? Nope. Less wheel spin under accel? Nope. Less grip through apexes? Nope. I didn't change brake balance and the setup is very good to say the least...nothing was changed in the setup for the test either. Straight out onto the track. This is the setup I use for the FGTA F1 world championship, which is no joke.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Go back and recount those eight people. A few of them were agreeing with other points, not this one. You think I am the only one? Go back and recount that as well lol.

I've done over 50k miles in the game and have/do compete in some pretty high caliber championships. Some of the highest on GTP, undoubtedly. I have a pretty good feel for grip changes and such as I'm off doing endurance events and 50+ lap races at large, real world tracks with some very high powered cars. We're trying to run the tires for as long as we can, we test tire deg to the max, we test what setups are best with tire wear versus grip and lap time compromises, etc., etc., etc. I'm constantly feeling tires degrade. I would definitely notice if I suddenly had more grip...anywhere. We just don't make threads about it.

I'm not trying to toot my own horn or be all higher than thou, just trying to prove a point that I have a little experience to speak from and I'm not blowing smoke up your rear end. I'm not saying you don't, just pointing out that mine is pretty extensive...and I'm competing with people who constantly finish in the top 20 for seasonal race car events. I can't make the top 20, but I can do top 100...so, I just think I have a pretty dang good feel for grip in the game.

This is why I am hesitant to get into these threads, because it is so subjective when you're saying "I did this, I noticed that" over the internet. We all have different skill levels and none of us truly know how long the bridge is over the gap between us all who are writing in. I could totally blow and my statements that seem very concrete and convincing...yet not good enough in reality to pick up on these things.

 

[ColouredBadger]

Yeah lol, I'm sort of consistent, too. We can see if that is true by going into a lobby room together. The locking of the brakes was one of the first things I tried and it is completely relevant. More grip = better braking, right? It is easier to test than throttle application. Are the brakes harder to lock up in either modes? Nope. Can I brake later? Nope. Less wheel spin under accel? Nope. Less grip through apexes? Nope. I didn't change brake balance and the setup is very good to say the least...nothing was changed in the setup for the test either. Straight out onto the track. This is the setup I use for the FGTA F1 world championship, which is no joke.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Go back and recount those eight people. A few of them were agreeing with other points, not this one. You think I am the only one? Go back and recount that as well lol.

I've done over 50k miles in the game and have/do compete in some pretty high caliber championships. Some of the highest on GTP, undoubtedly. I have a pretty good feel for grip changes and such as I'm off doing endurance events and 50+ lap races at large, real world tracks with some very high powered cars. We're trying to run the tires for as long as we can, we test tire deg to the max, we test what setups are best with tire wear versus grip and lap time compromises, etc., etc., etc. I'm constantly feeling tires degrade. I would definitely notice if I suddenly had more grip...anywhere. We just don't make threads about it.

I'm not trying to toot my own horn or be all higher than thou, just trying to prove a point that I have a little experience to speak from and I'm not blowing smoke up your rear end. I'm not saying you don't, just pointing out that mine is pretty extensive...and I'm competing with people who constantly finish in the top 20 for seasonal race car events. I can't make the top 20, but I can do top 100...so, I just think I have a pretty dang good feel for grip in the game.

This is why I am hesitant to get into these threads, because it is so subjective when you're saying "I did this, I noticed that" over the internet. We all have different skill levels and none of us truly know how long the bridge is over the gap between us all who writing in.

Those 8 people, and 3 testers are from my casual racing group, the one I run. This is where a lot of my points come from. It's why I shared it with GT Planet to see if others have thought this, some have, some haven't. It seems the hardcore players are the ones saying "It says real, so it is real" and not much else in their argument. Granted you have done some testing and you are exempt from that summary. But in the entirety of your replies you forget that I did this myself and have found the differences, and have evidence to back up my claim. I found a difference and was quicker when not on Real settings. I don't normally on the grass anyway and if it didn't affect the grip on track then it doesn't explain why I'm faster time and time again. Anyone who races with me regularly can back up my consistency and low crash record.

Wow, you compete in championships on GT Planet, you're so hardcore and qualified to comment on which is the most realistic... ... If it counts for anything I finished 25th in the Goodwood competition a while back. 25th in the UK, I was 19th for a while but got demoted. I was 0.8 seconds off the winning time. I too have experience to comment.

But as you say, we will have to agree to disagree. It is only a game after all and we play to enjoy it. Even if some take it far too seriously at times (not directed at you), it is meant to be enjoyed. If Low grip settings makes the game more enjoyable for the 10+ people I regularly host races for on CCR then sobeit. We all have free choice to do as we please on GT6.

 

[332i]

@ColouredBadger

Nice, dude. 25th in your country for one seasonal...I'll let that one be, don't want to be disrespectful... Anyways, I'm not asking you to fire back with credentials. You say you have evidence - lol. Your evidence, as I said, is subjective and contains variables. My point was not to be a smartass when I said anything about what I've done, but yours was in regards to that. Hardcore, eh? Use whichever adjective you'd like. Let me be more clear as you obviously have perceived that oddly: You're testing this now...I've been and many others have been testing this since the game came out and noting changes with each update. This is why so many of us have been solely tuning online.

Like I said, why don't we make a lobby room sometime and I will show you myself? You can bring your casual friends and I will bring some people as well. Or i'll just come by myself. It doesn't matter to me. That'd bury the hatchet in short order. **You seem confused, as if I am saying you shouldn't use x setting or that I am ragging on you for using the easier settings...you can do whatever the hell you want lol. No one is telling you to use xyz settings.** If you like the extra grip and it is some sort of problem to tune online for you...you seem to think I care. I think part of it is actually you and your attitude. The "wow, you compete in this, you must be soo hardcore", "people just want to pick the real setting" and other excuses. You've had to go on the defensive and explain yourself a lot ITT. That is worth noting.

This belief you have is psychosomatic. You were seven tenths faster for a lap and that translates as "evidence" to you? Oh, but I'm sure there is much more, plus your casual racing group. Dude - it was seven tenths lol. All that take is entering and exiting one turn in a slightly better manner. A manner in which you may not even have realized.

How about this: Post lap comparisons with pictures of the data logger or stop making claims that you can't prove. Pretty simple, right? I imagine you have a camera on your cell phone like anyone else in the UK. That will show us what you are doing throughout the entire lap. Every entry, exit, braking zone, load, throttle application, braking application, etc. You are very confident in this, so let's see exactly how consistent you are. Otherwise, this thread is internet banality.

 

[trustjab]

I know the op was talking of his TS030 setup like the TS040, but look at the qualifying times of 2013 at Silverstone and Spa, that was the last time the 2012 car ran. Best lap in qualifying for 2013 was a 1:43.2 by the #7 Toyota at Silverstone. You have to remember that in the game you can recharge and boost with the supercapacitor whenever, wherever. In 2012/13 they had specific zones where you could use the hybrid. Not the case in 2014, thats why you can match the times with the TS030. About the grip levels in online settings, I never realized that "low" grip was faster than "real". But I know there is debate about the grip at the edge of the track.