Pack Racing Discipline in Gran Turismo 5

[JohnBM01]

I've started this thread to discuss racing in much larger packs as GT5 and GT5P will allow. Offer some advice for those who may have some fears of racing against 10 more competitors in GT5. Talk about how to keep the racing fun and interesting with these larger packs on circuits. This is all about pack racing.

I'm going to spend this paragraph to simply talk about pack racing in general and perhaps offer some advice for those who aren't really used to racing much more cars on track. I am a racing game veteran as well as Gran Turismo veteran. The way you make a name for yourself is to beat the rest of the pack to win. Six cars was pretty good as it lasted. The packs of six cars didn't make for exciting racing at times. Passing five cars to win isn't an uphill battle as it may seem. Now look at racing against 10 more cars to make 16 to a track. The best way to get experience can be done in a few ways. The first I'd recommend is doing some real racing. Meaning... away from your shiny PS3 and getting dirty on the track. I've done a few go-kart races against my brother and his friends. I beat my older brother a few times. Make sure to go against a bunch of other competitors. Another way to get some pack racing experience is against many other cars in some other games. The ToCA Race Driver series is a great start since you can have up to 20 cars (with one having about 21 to a track). Racing against 16 cars in GT5 isn't as daunting if you still know how to climb up the pack. I would imagine that less challenging opposition would entail fewer laps around most circuits. Shorter courses will need more laps to traverse through a pack of 15 other racers. And conversely, longer courses may not need many laps to pass all the cars. Oval races will need 25 to 50 percent more laps in which to have a greater chance of passing the 15 other entries. Things will be much worse if you have some sort of race in which you have anything higher than 10 A-Spec (5 to 10 A-Spec is basically cars tuned to the same level as yours) going up against 15 other potent competitors. Just remember to practice proper discipline and try to limit mistakes to a minimum.

A theme I've started on GTPlanet is on putting things into perspective. So let's put 16 cars into perspective. I downloaded the Sports Car Challenge mod for rFactor. It features some of the many sportscar racing cars and stars from 2001. A collection of 2002 cars are in the works for this mod, by the way. Sixteen cars to a track will be very interesting in more prestigious races. I basically imagined the races I ran with 16 cars to a track like the Gran Turismo World Championship. Racing becomes much more interesting with more cars. I can assure you that endurance racing will be damned amazing in the future with 16 cars to a track. You may not be as lonely as you've been with GTs past when leading or dead last. Better driving skill will be a must in tougher and longer races. Try to make bold overtakes if you can generate some. If in a slower car (and let's assume we get class racing in GT5) against faster teams, then you'll need to learn to let faster drivers by so that you don't interrupt the flow of the higher classes. If in a faster car against slower teams, you'll really need to make sure your opposition gets out of the way. Differentials in speed play a huge role in sportscar racing.

That's all from me. Other than this, the floor is yours to discuss techniques, recommendations, advice, and whatever else yuo can provide to help some gamers who may not be so confident at racing against many more cars to a track. Go for it!

 

[GT40 MKII]

well john i can say this. 16 cars on the course on the game theres gonna be someone going off the track if not one, many will

 

[ZOOSO]

Del raced karts for roughly ten years (from the late 80's} .. let me tell you , starting at the rear of the field ; even if your the fastest on the track ... is tough work and almost impossible to win a race : depending on how many laps were involved {the adrenalin rush you get racing within inches of other karts , passing and gettting passed , with your bum half an inch off the ground >>>>> is simply amazing , nothing like it imo}

A normal race meeting consisted of 4 heats and a final .. grid positions for the 1st race were drawn from a hat and the grid reversed for the 2nd heat . The highest points earner would then start from pole for the 3rd , 4th heat and the final .

Championship races would require qualifying to earn your spot for pole {using a 'hotter' plug for 2/3 quick laps could earn a few extra places closer to the front .. once qualified 3rd in a state championship , only to have a DNF in the 1st heat }

Starting at the back of the grid in GT4 .. against 6 other cars was ok .. but in GT5 it will be much more of a challenge .... Perhaps GT5 might have a heat system as ive described , and/or have us qualify for the grid for the higher class races .

Whatever .. we'll all be enjoying the challenge 👍

 

[superwally]

Successful pack racing has less to do with being the very fastest person around the track (that's qualifying) and more to do with your ability to set up and pass opponents as you reach them. It's an art-you have to read the motions of the cars in front of you and anticipate mistakes, and alway be relatively faster at crucial points on a given track to be able to cleanly overtake.

Easier said than done. I'd rather be a midpack qualifier and a leading racer than put it on the pole every race and fade as the laps pass. I'm very much looking forward to the additional competition on the track.

 

[Danny]

You reckon you could get 16 convertibles on track with the top down?

 

[MasterGT]

Offer some advice for those who may have some fears of racing against 10 more competitors in GT5.

There are two things any GT-only player should have done years ago:

1) play ToCA 2 & 3

This is the only on-line PS2 road racing series that is remotely similar to GT and which can still be found and it is a good game through which to learn what is needed for playing on-line. It's not too late to start now.

2) join a league, to stay away from the basher&crashers and the fowl-mouthed, psychotic, etc.

The reasons are self-evident, but the grand effect is you know who you are playing with and you can keep your sanity. You are among friends and people you can trust.

There is no magic here, you just need "time on the job" to learn what you are like (you might get a surprise here) and what it is like racing door-to-door, bumper-to-bumper with real people.

Cheers,

MasterGT

 

[Gabkicks]

meh 16 is okay. but i'd prefer around 32 like in LFS . just the pressure of trying to get a good launch off the line with 15 or more cars behind you is a new experience . Then there's the fears getting taken out at turn 1. its a funny feeling when racing against some cars infront and behind you. If you make a move on the car in front, you could expose yourself to the car behind, and if the car behind is attacking, and you defend too much, the gap between you and the car infront will grow.

 

[toyota_gt1]

32? wow i think thats a little much for gran turismo imo. however, that would be very nice at nurburgring or la sarthe.

 

[Peterram430]

I think it should be like Toca 3, the number of oponents changes depending on what race you're in. There should be 21 cars in the F1 style races, about 50* at Le Mans- Nurbergring 24 houres, 18 in BTCC style stuff, etc.


*For Le-Mans there should be the two classes (LMP and GT) on track at the same time, about 25 in each.

 

[GT40 MKII]

I think it should be like Toca 3, the number of oponents changes depending on what race you're in. There should be 21 cars in the F1 style races, about 50* at Le Mans- Nurbergring 24 houres, 18 in BTCC style stuff, etc.


*For Le-Mans there should be the two classes (LMP and GT) on track at the same time, about 25 in each.

i agree on that one. i also think that there should be 3 winners the LMP winner the GT winner and the overall winner so lets say you come in third of the race but you win your class you could get a prize for third overall and a prize for winning your class.

sorry to go off topic but i felt it should be mentioned somewhere in this cause wouldnt the drive to win the race and unlock some rediciously expensive car drive some one to snap a few rules

 

[j8mie]

It's funny because we all now know that GT5 and GT5 will have at least 16 car son the track at once, but that doesn't mean every race will have 16 cars on the track. When starting out in GT5 the shorter races/shorter circuits will probably only have half that number of cars on track and the number will increase/decrease depending on which race you are undertaking.

Back on topic. Like John, I'm a racing veteran across the formats and have raced in larger packs than 16 cars. The key to winning is qualifying well to begin with. How many times does someone in last place on the grid win an F1 race? So my top tip will be to qualify well, and make the task ahead of you so much easier. Also depdning on the race length you need to remember that the race is never won on the first corner, only lost. I can think of countless times I've let a position slip because I didn't want to risk damaging my car when going into the first corner, so being pushed off into the gravel.

 

[H3avyM3tal]

I hope they will allow something like qualifying, because if the game puts players at random positions, than its going to be tough on the ones on the back.

Well, the fair players anyway...

 

[Gabkicks]

reverse qualifying grids are always interesting

 

[MasterGT]

32? wow i think thats a little much for gran turismo imo.

I have yet to see an accurate decription as to why the console couldn't handle more cars on the grid. They have said, and we should also realise, that the number on-line will depend on conditions (quality of connection to the net), but that says nothing about why the hardware can't handle more.

Codemasters, as always, wants to push the limits higher than the 16 that was recently quoted for GT5. They want about 20 on-line for RDO, so it remains for us to see if they can get the game and hardware to that level. Their on-line developer said they wanted 16 for the PS2 version of ToCA 3, but the on-line library just couldn't handle it. I am still not sure what the problem was with it or whether the console's hardware got in the road, too.

The point is that the number on-line may still grow above what we have heard, so far, but why they can't start off at with a similar number to what PC games can handle baffles me. The one thought that I've had has to do with the quantity of data sent over the network. If GT sends more data than ToCA or the PC games, that's one thing that would affect it (unless I am missing the obvious, here), but I am not sure that is the case. That would indicate that PD has more quality in their networked game play, though. It would take more of a network person to be able to figure this out and quantify it.

Cheers,

MasterGT

 

[JohnBM01]

Here's my thing. I'm not going to overstate the PS3's boundaries. I know the PS3 may seem to have seemingly unlimited power, but I'm not going to make outlandish numbers as to how many cars should be featured. Consider the number of cars on the track as well as the detail of each car including AI processing thereof. I always say that 24 is a safe number to have a great number of cars on the track at once. I don't know about 32 cars in a Gran Turismo game. It would be a great dream, but let's not get into GTR numbers. I think you see fewer numbers of cars in races in games for two possible reasons: slowdown issues and the style of racing intact. Let's say rallycross racing against five other cars (or maybe seven) is in GT5. MotorStorm has 15 cars to a track, and 12 bikes (and some buggies; much more agile than bikes) to a track based on the MotorStorm demo. As great as MotorStorm looks, it doesn't have as much graphical detail as GT5P. There's also obviously not as much automotive savagery in GT5P than in MotorStorm. I think issues with lag and certain race limits are the reasons why (for example) you have six Bowler Wildcats (ToCA RD 2) to a track as well as about 10 sprint cars (ToCA RD 3) on dirt ovals. Also explains six Monster Trucks (ToCA RD 3) as well as two hotrods (ToCA RD 2; very debatable) in the ToCA games.

* I would imagine qualifying should be a must in doing races in GT5. History tells us that every odd-numbered GT has had a full qualifying feature. Only even-numbered GT to have some sort of qualifying was GT4. However, GT4's qualifying came in the form of practice only in championships. Tight circuits and some street courses should be the ones you would want to take care of in order to have a better chance of making a better position. Qualifying is essential if you feel that starting last significantly increases your chances of losing the race. You have a car that can win races. Trouble is, you can't knife through the pack effectively enough. So you want to qualify. As for the race itself, I hark back to the License Tests and Driving Missions. You do these things for a reason. They aren't there just to take you away from racing. They are there to get you better accustomed to the game as well as give you some experience. So Gran Turismo isn't pick-up-and-play like Forza. You still have to practice and practice to be the Gran Turismo champion you want to be.

* I've been thinking. Some of the classic Sega 3D racing games (Daytona USA series, Super GT/SCUD Race, etc.) have a lot of cars on the track. While most of these games are arcadish in physics, you at least get some experience going up against a pack of cars. So you may want to try some other games to get a great idea of what you have to do to win races. Evolve into a racing game veteran. Try a variety of racing games both past and present. Maybe the best arcade racer where you can practice starting from the back to win is with the Ridge Racer series. I still remember racing my little R.T. Ryukyu car in the original Ridge Racer to win races (since most of the other cars were crap to drift as well as drive). I had my Kamata Fortune and Rivelta Mecurio in Ridge Racer V to win races including the 99 Trial.

* Finally, I would suggest that longer races can work for you... or even against you. Think of longer races as greater opportunities to win races. I only reserve longer races for more prestigious races as well as races against tougher opposition. I am usually in a have-to-win mode with much longer races because I hate to spend a lot of time racing an event... only to lose. If time is running out and you're behind, you may need to pull some bold manuvers. I've even played dirty a bit to try to make the winning pass. You need to really focus on finding the fastest line as well as driving to the best of your ability.

Want an example of effective pack racing? Think of the NASCAR races in which some drivers started dead last to eventually win. Think of the 2003 12 Hours of Sebring whereas the Bentleys were damn near the back and came back strong to finish in the Top 5 overall. One last note... imagine if you get no points for placing outside the Top 6 (or whatever points will be awarded for certain championships). It means that you have to place in a points position to acheive points good towards winning the championship. Anyone else want to offer advice or suggestions about pack racing in GT5 with as many as 16 to a track?

 

[Forte EXE]

This is why people should get on Xlink more often...

 

[DappaDaRealist]

If all races consist of 16 opponents, the races are going to have to be longer, laps probably numbering into the 10s ,and especialy more so when the AI is more intelligent coupled with evenly matched cars perhaps?.I suspect that may be the dread of the casual gamers.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

If it were challenging enough, it might not be as bad as you think. See, I always hated it when I had to do five or more laps of, say, Suzuka, and I was in the lead before we'd even cleared the Esses, even if it were a 120 or 150-point race. With sixteen cars on track, it should be harder to get to the top spot (unless you're insanely over-powered compared to everyone else, which is why PD should set it so A-spec points - assuming they're coming back - can be see before the race begins).

 

[Dave A]

If all races consist of 16 opponents, the races are going to have to be longer, laps probably numbering into the 10s ,and especialy more so when the AI is more intelligent coupled with evenly matched cars perhaps?.I suspect that may be the dread of the casual gamers.

Or perhaps in the single race events you just start mid pack like in GT5, instead of at the back. Though, if the AI does end up being good, at least in terms of speed round the track and not just player recognition, then even starting 8th might make it a bit hard. But if the AI is no quicker than it is in GT4, then starting 8th shouldn't be hard for 3 and 4 lap races.

 

[RACECAR]

I'm a racing veteran of different racing games and have abit of input myself. In GT4, I really don't even qualify anymore because I know for sure I'm gonna get pole, but now with 16 or more cars for GT5 and GT5, suddenly it is now very important to qualify. Here my three things I remember in Pack racing.

Position: This can help or hurt you depending on what track or in what car you have. If you in a car that is not as fast on the straights and you in the mid pack of dead last(like a BMW M3 GTR), then you'll have a hard time trying to defend and/or pass at the same time. If your in a car thats a screamer down the straights and you in the lead pack(like a Panoz Esprante GTLM), then it shouldn't be a problem. If your in a Evenly matched car, then It varies alot depending on where you are.

Passing: When you pass, how you pass, where you pass, and who you pass plays a key role in your race. If your battling a another car for the lead (Say, a Acura ARX-01) for the lead at Sebring, you have to be careful where you pass. If you try make a clean pass at sunset bend, Thats a good pass. If you try to pass the car while you going traffic(like say a GT2 class Ferrari F430 and a GT1 class Maserati MC12) in turn 4, then it might not be such a good pass. You have to be mindful of all the cars around you whether its cars of a different class, or if there is a opponent battling you.

Strategy: Now with a bigger number of Cars in a given race, This now actually has a more Significant role in whether you decide to do. Say your in your Calsonic Z and You pit early to get yourself off sequence with the other cars, then you've made a good call as this may play to your advantage of fuel strategy against the leading Takata NSX. What you do and when you do it as very essential now


Thats my three things I remember for pack racing.

 

[amar212]

One technical thingie:

Wheel-driving will support side-views - as in GT4. Controller-driving will not. If both wheel-drivers and controller-drivers will race in the same race, ability to see the position of the car next to you will be very important in terms of clean racing/pack racing.

It's the most important thing in overpassing - in light to determine who's got the inner-position for corner entry.

 

[greenlightning]

Truly knowing your car, what it can do and what it can not, especially when applied to a certain track will be crucial on races with larger car fields. Especially with better A.I.
I agree with others that qualifying in at least mid pack could and perhaps should be very important especially on races with 10 or fewer laps. I would say some good practice would be running races in arcade with decent A spec points with 10 second penatly or forced pit turned on. Unless you are good to very good in a car that does not perhaps get more A spec points then it should, then if you can win with no contact that would be a great start. Just my thoughts.

 

[ERacer]

Great info here, all 👍

Another point to consider is that your racing style will most likely change once you are online. For example, during your race if you spin out and crash, you can no longer simply restart and hope for a better final time. You have to get back on the track, if the online rules allow, and play out the ongoing race. My guess is that your online racing will be more cautionary compared to racing in GT4 with the goal of simply finishing as quickly, cleanly and without accident as best you can - which is more in line with "real" racing.

ERacer

 

[JohnBM01]

Here's a little more pack racing discipline by talking about a very popular racing game series.

--- Pack Racing in Perspective: Top Gear Series ---
Perhaps you've played the Top Gear series on the SNES. For you Japanese gamers, I'm of course talking about the Top Racer series. Both games were about scratching that racing itch around a variety of international locales. There were many more locales featured in Top Gear 2. Top Gear 3000 was completely science fiction for what I know. I only know of Top Gears 1 and 2. Each race has 20 cars to a track. Top Gear 1 had pit strategy come into play as well as four different cars to choose from. Top Gear 2 introduced physical damage. If you haven't bought armor for your car, then it's going to be derailed very quickly. To advance to the next race, you have to place 5th or better in Top Gear 1, and you have to place 10th or better in Top Gear 2. Racing against sprites can be rather tough. You don't have specific parts of the car to rough up. You try to whack someone, you're paying for it. You do get to use Nitro around the tracks in Top Gear. You have 3 in Top Gear 1 and 6 in Top Gear 2. You can find some extra ones on some tracks in Top Gear 2. You can upgrade your car in Top Gear 2. Everyone basically runs the same car.

Twenty cars to a track would be great. I usually say 24 is perfect (at least for me). To make the most of each race, I think PD will need to adjust the length of races based on the difficulty level and depth of competition. For example, 16 cars around Autumn Ring Mini in the Sunday Cup usually consists of incapable cars. PD was smart because the race was about three or four laps long at Autumn Ring Mini - Reverse. It wouldn't be too fair to race that track with two laps even if the competition level isn't very deep. You don't give a driver only two laps to navigate a course full of cars on a very short race track with inferior competition. Now think of a Gran Turismo World Championship race at Grand Valley Speedway against Le Mans race cars as well as classic GTP cars. Let's assume we don't get any class racing. First off, stay away from any GT cars. Climbing through the field will be tough because you have to go through a pack of very fast cars. Then too, you also have to exercise proper pit strategy. Remember to take caution in race series featuring faster cars. Same can even be said for Formula GT.

I would be happy if the rally events were all mostly rally time trials, especially in races where making passes on a two or one lane roads are almost impossible (like the Grand Canyon and especially Citta di Aria). Anyone else care to key in on this deal? Maybe offer some advice to more novice GT gamers about pack racing against 15 other cars?

 

[Tornado]

To be honest, if the AI is as bad in GT5 as it was in GT4, I don't think it will matter how many racers are on track or where you start other than the tracks will be less empty.

 

[Gabkicks]

there should be plenty of people to race online hopefully PD puts alot of time into making sure the netcode is good.

 

[HelixSix]

Guys that played on xlink are going to have a huge advantage when this baby goes online. Same with guys who have played pc sim racers with over 30 ppl in races.

Since gran turismo has so much history there is going to be a TON of casual newb racers driving without regard to any racing rules. People will dive low in the corners and use you for a wall and ram your @ss in hairpins. In those races the pro's are gonna have to be real smart and when they make their move they will have to get a good .3 or more gap and never look back.

 

[RACECAR]

Guys that played on xlink are going to have a huge advantage when this baby goes online. Same with guys who have played pc sim racers with over 30 ppl in races.

Since gran turismo has so much history there is going to be a TON of casual newb racers driving without regard to any racing rules. People will dive low in the corners and use you for a wall and ram your @ss in hairpins. In those races the pro's are gonna have to be real smart and when they make their move they will have to get a good .3 or more gap and never look back.

Thats very true and its not just them you have to worry about, you also have wreckless ones who have no skill and will push you or ram when you try to pass them.

 

[DustDriver]

Newb or wreckless racers are just an extra difficulty.
There are plenty of both in LFS demo and it's great fun to make a maneuver where those people only just miss you and drive straight into a wall