Police officer mistakes Wii remote for a gun, kills a teenager

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I have read a few more articles on this in hopes for some update.

There were 2 officers, one was at the door, the other the north west which may have been the back of the house.
The affidavit said they heard what was a gun being cocked so the officer drew her weapon to be ready, but then a few lines down it does not say that the officer in question the action of a gun.

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A little off topic, while I was reading I read an article that said a cop that failed his psychological test ended up being hired and he ended up raping a women.
http://filmingcops.com/protecting-rapist/

Seems they are now just giving police badges in cereal boxes.
 
Everyone is innocent until proven guilty. That includes the police.

@r0llinlacs: Calling people "cop lovers" here indicates you've already made up your mind over the officer's guilt even before the results of the investigation are out.

You're telling me the teenage minor that was murdered by police was innocent until proven guilty? You want to prove that? Seriously? The full and whole logical, rational reason he is dead is because he was presumed guilty before it could be proven.

And yes, my mind is made up. I've read hundreds of these types of stories, and you know what? It's always the same story. Innocent person dies, cop gets paid vacation and keeps their job. Nothing is different here.

And again, the internal investigations are a joke. Conflict of interest anybody??? You think they are going to fully investigate themselves without bias?
 
You're telling me the teenage minor that was murdered by police was innocent until proven guilty? You want to prove that? Seriously? The full and whole logical, rational reason he is dead is because he was presumed guilty before it could be proven.

And yes, my mind is made up. I've read hundreds of these types of stories, and you know what? It's always the same story. Innocent person dies, cop gets paid vacation and keeps their job. Nothing is different here.

And again, the internal investigations are a joke. Conflict of interest anybody??? You think they are going to fully investigate themselves without bias?

And if there is any jail time for the cop it is 10% heck not even 10% of what mr not a cop would be in jail with the same crime.

That cop I mentioned, 3.5 years in jail for 26 charges 1 was repe, 2 were sexual assault.
You would get 25 to life for the same crimes.

And the police always say they are not above the law.
it is only true if there is 2 versions of the law.

Average Joe's Law
Police man's law
 
Heard many people say that.
Is it true in some states (on the quiet highways between cities), cops would pull you over because they are lonely or bored?

They pulled over Richard Hammond because they wanted to see his 6x6 Monster Benz.
And that was in the UAE where they can just floor it for fun.
 
They pulled over Richard Hammond because they wanted to see his 6x6 Monster Benz.
And that was in the UAE where they can just floor it for fun.

They do it in the UK too. In fairness supercars are the second-most likely car to be incorrectly insured, and the police also argue that they're protecting visibly high-value property (as is their job). Sometimes though...they must just fancy a look, I've never met a Black Rat who wasn't a petrol-head.
 
The full and whole logical, rational reason he is dead is because he was presumed guilty before it could be proven.
And since when have cops been given the power of judge, jury and executioner?

The whole reason this is under investigation is because they have not, and unless the boy posed an immediate threat to their safety or to public safety, they have no call to shoot him.

The only question is whether the boy actually performed any motions or actions that could reasonably lead the cop to believe he was an immediate danger. If he were holding a gun remote pointed at the door, then maybe. If he were holding a gun remote, pointed down, then she should get sacked at least, and convicted for manslaughter, if possible. If he were holding an ordinary Wii joystick, throw the book at her.


And again, the internal investigations are a joke. Conflict of interest anybody??? You think they are going to fully investigate themselves without bias?

While bias in internal investigations is depressingly common, the high profile nature of this case means that there is pressure on the department to mete out what punishment it can.
 
And since when have cops been given the power of judge, jury and executioner?

They may not have been formally given the power, but they're certainly exercising it. And all too often the "investigation" is a whitewash. I'm hoping that will not the case in this situation, but I'm not not at all confident it won't be.
 
And since when have cops been given the power of judge, jury and executioner?

The whole reason this is under investigation is because they have not...

This case is in the United States where Tennesse v Garner gives them judicial right. There's a reasonable explanation of that ruling's place in US 'deadly force' procedures here.

The test is, as you'll read, "deadly force...may not be used unless necessary to prevent the escape and the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious bodily harm to the officer or others."

That's clearly open to abuse because in a one-on-one situation an officer simply has to testify that they felt their life was in danger. If no evidence exists to suggest the opposite then a jury is unlikely to reasonably doubt the officer.

In this particular case, I just don't know. I'd love to trust the US police more than I do, I'm sure 95% of them are as good and true as anyone who devotes their life to a difficult public service. But there sure are some bad apples in there... just like anywhere. What scares me is the power that they do have to exercise their duties as they see 'fit'.
 
From the same Wikipedia entry:

In the United States, a civilian may legally use deadly force when it is considered justifiable homicide, that is to say when the civilian feels that their own life, the lives of their family, or those around them are in legitimate and imminent danger.[2]

Also:

For example, in the United States an investigation is usually performed by a larger police agency and/or a civilian agency, such as a county prosecutor or State Attorney General.[2] A report of the findings of such an investigation may be submitted for prosecution and made public.[3]

I doubt the woman will get a stiff sentence. Police officer, plus woman... should get some sympathy points. But I doubt she will go completely unpunished.
 
@niky, I don't disagree with you overall, I'm just pointing out the precedent under which law enforcement officers operate.

In most countries where similar laws exist the officers are required to loudly identify themselves as police, or as armed police (when being armed might be unusual, as in the UK).

Once they have done that they dissipate the right of the civilian to react with deadly force, it is not considered "normal" by juries that a civilian, unintent on wrongdoing, would fear for their life when confronted by police.

How accurate that "normality" actually is in the face of certain officers is, sadly, questionable.

It wouldn't surprise me if this officer is disciplined behind-the-scenes via a procedural technicality but I suspect that the department will use the fullest force of Tennessee to protect her from criminal conviction.
 
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Cop should be prosecuted. Cops should not shoot until shot at.

And if there is only one officer at the scene, the criminal shoots first and takes the cop out. What's to stop the criminal going on a rampage?

It's all to easy to sit behind a computer screen and say the cop should have done this, they shouldn't be allowed to do this until the suspect does that. Each and every situation is different, you can't just lay down one blanket rule and expect all officers to adhere to it no matter what with stuff like this. It's too high risk, and potentially many lives are at stake.
 
In most countries where similar laws exist the officers are required to loudly identify themselves as police, or as armed police (when being armed might be unusual, as in the UK).

Once they have done that they dissipate the right of the civilian to react with deadly force, it is not considered "normal" by juries that a civilian, unintent on wrongdoing, would fear for their life when confronted by police.

That's one of the things that disturb me about this case. The police knocked, the kid asked who's there, he got no answer. I don't know what the law or the "standard procedure" with regard to identification is in Tennessee, but if they did not identify themselves, the kid would have been well within his right to have a loaded gun pointed at the door. Of course had the police identified themselves, as you say, that changes things considerably.
 
Pointing your gun at someone, unless you are directly threatened, is a criminal offense.

Shooting someone, when you are not threatened with bodily harm, is an even greater offense.

-

I wonder where the information that the kid got no answer at the door came from, considering the only people at that door are either dead, or being accused of murder.
 
Agreed @BobK Not communicating the situation and police presence is a huge deal, if that is how it unfolded.
I wonder where the information that the kid got no answer at the door came from, considering the only people at that door are either dead, or being accused of murder.

It seems it supposedly came from the sibling(s) via the family's lawyer. Police vs lawyers. How much chance of squeezing out the truth in that scenario?
 
If the policewoman didn't identify herself before the boy opened the door and she shot him, that further strengthens the case against her.

That means she was already in the mindset of going gung-ho for this confrontation.

Actually... according to this:


http://edition.cnn.com/2014/02/19/us/georgia-teenager-death/

According to an affidavit dated Friday, two police officers went to a home in Euharlee, Georgia, to serve probation violation arrest warrants.

One officer went to the front door while another took a position on the northeast corner of the residence, the affidavit says. The officer at the door knocked and could hear someone from inside coming to the door.

Before it opened, that officer heard what she believed was the action of a firearm, at which point the officer drew her weapon, the affidavit says.

"A male subject opened the front door pointing a pistol ... and pulled the trigger," the affidavit reads. The officer fired one round.

She was.

No mention of identification. She just hears the "action of a firearm" (deadbolt on the door, likely?) and draws her weapon.

And if someone has a gun pointed at you and is pulling the trigger... you are... what?
 
If the police failed to identify themselves, I'd side with the family, but I'm confused. Did the kid have a gun, or Wii remote? Media says that it was Wii remote, but the same media is also reporting that authorities claim that the kid had a gun? :confused:
 
If the policewoman didn't identify herself before the boy opened the door and she shot him, that further strengthens the case against her.

That means she was already in the mindset of going gung-ho for this confrontation.

Actually... according to this:


http://edition.cnn.com/2014/02/19/us/georgia-teenager-death/


She was.

No mention of identification. She just hears the "action of a firearm" (deadbolt on the door, likely?) and draws her weapon.

And if someone has a gun pointed at you and is pulling the trigger... you are... what?

A paragraph down from the affidavit

It does not mention the officer having heard the action of a firearm, but said that Roupe opened the door with a drawn handgun.
 
A paragraph down from the affidavit

Problem is that his family say one thing, the police say another.

Pro-Police

What was the probation arrest for? Certainly the police seemed to expect a potentially armed response from the position they took up before approaching the house. That coupled with the exist of a probation violation potentially suggest a history of firearm violence.

There are times in case law when a verbal announcement is not required, that includes such a time as officers believe that they have been identified as law enforcement personnel. If the police felt they'd been seen and identified as they parked or approached the house then they legal precedents for muting warnings.

@niky says the officer was "prepared to go gung-ho", I think that's a presumption based on a perception of subsequent events. The pro-police argument makes it reasonable to think that they had reasons to fear an armed response at the property.

He lives in a trailer park on parole, it's fair to assume that the police may not have expected his children to be at the trailer with him, including his 18-year-old son.

As the door opened they believed they saw an adult-sized male holding a firearm and they were confronted with an officer's worst fear; potential death. The officer fired immediately in self-defence.

Pro-Victim

As I've already pointed out, the Deadly Force protection for civilians (and extended to LAOs in Tennesse.vs.Garner) has a flaw; it depends on absolutely perfect judgement. In a one-on-one case it could be seen to offer zero-public-protection.

In this case the witnesses for the victim claim that he wasn't holding a firearm but a Wii remote, no verbal warning was given and no attempt at physical arrest was made.

The father lives in a trailer park on parole, it's fair to assume that the police may not have expected his children to be at the trailer with him. They arrived in a gung-ho state of mind (as @niky observes) ready for a fight. Maybe they already had history with the perp and were planning to settle scores.

If this account is true then the police officer is guilty, in any right-thinking society, of murder.

Actually

The victim's family have lost him forever, that's awful and not going to change. Regardless of anyone's crimes I can never bring myself to believe that a person's death in retribution changes anything.

As part of their natural grief the family want the worst possible things to happen to the LAOs involved in the incident. It's also natural that if guilt exists they'll want to deny it. There's also a major fiscal consideration. I'm not making any presumptions about the family, I consider those things to be true in situations like this regardless of the creed or class of the families involved.

So far, from the family, we've only heard from their lawyers who are treading the 'party line' and not offering a version of events any different from that which they present to the court. We all know what's in it for the lawyers, and they won't present a balanced view even when the cheque's cashed.

As for the police; they're naturally defending themselves by saying they were following procedure. Maybe they did? Maybe the officer genuinely believe that they were being presented with a raising firing-arm holding a firearm, a taser-like device, a can of gas, all potentially deadly weapons. From what they say they approached the house with aforeknowledge that they were going to detain a convicted criminal who had violated his parole terms. We don't know what for, if that parole was for a serious firearms offence then it may change the colour of the case somewhat.

Genuinely we don't really know, I'm now sure we've really seen any unbiased or unedited account of events and nor are we likely to until the case is judged.

EDIT: In a couple of other places I've found a quote from a witness on the trailer park who said "This is tragic. She came out of this house. She put her head in her hands and she was sobbing...Supposedly, he opened the door with a BB gun”.

Cole Law, attorney at law, is unconvinced. He maintains Wii remote.

Sadly I wonder if we'll ever know and if this case will ever leave everyone feeling that justice was done.

EDIT EDIT: The case highlights a particular problem that the police face; when a case is sub-judice the police can't make comment as they're normally the primary witness for the 'people'. Sadly in the US and the UK lawyers for the defence use the pre-hearing period to make hay in public - unless orchestrated publicity campaigns are undertaken it's unlikely the judge would find for contempt as long as no statements are given immediately-before-or-during the main hearings.
 
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And if there is only one officer at the scene, the criminal shoots first and takes the cop out. What's to stop the criminal going on a rampage?

Yea, criminal rampages are pretty common. What is the point exactly? That if you're the only officer on the scene you have to shoot first and ask questions later? Cops sometimes get shot, that just happens. It's a very difficult profession to protect the innocent and nab the guilty. But that's what cops are supposed to do. If they show up to someone's home to arrest them for parole violation, don't announce themselves, don't have a partner, and the person opening the door has a gun, the cop should not assume that that person is about to go on a killing spree. The cop should take cover, draw their firearm, announce themselves as a cop, instruct the person to keep their hands visible and place the firearm on the ground, and call for backup.

@niky, I don't disagree with you overall, I'm just pointing out the precedent under which law enforcement officers operate.

In most countries where similar laws exist the officers are required to loudly identify themselves as police, or as armed police (when being armed might be unusual, as in the UK).

Once they have done that they dissipate the right of the civilian to react with deadly force, it is not considered "normal" by juries that a civilian, unintent on wrongdoing, would fear for their life when confronted by police.

Which is all fine and dandy until criminals identify themselves as police, and then we're back where we started.
 
Which is all fine and dandy until criminals identify themselves as police, and then we're back where we started.

Which has always been possible. I don't see how that really changes anything. You think the police are going to be confused when it turns into the final scene of Spartacus?

"We're the police!"
"No, we're the police!"
"No, WE'RE the police!"
"NO! WE'RE the police!"
:D
 
Which is all fine and dandy until criminals identify themselves as police, and then we're back where we started.

No, I think you're muddying the point.

Impersonating an LAO with the intent to commit murder goes way beyond the protection of Tennessee therefore I think your argument is somewhat disingenuous. You already have malice-aforethought (or pre-meditation) under way and therefore discussion of this particular case is irrelevant.

Tennessee gives specific protection to LAOs but like any law can only be used in court. Your argument isn't one that would be heard against that law.
 
Which has always been possible. I don't see how that really changes anything. You think the police are going to be confused when it turns into the final scene of Spartacus?

"We're the police!"
"No, we're the police!"
"No, WE'RE the police!"
"NO! WE'RE the police!"
:D

No I'm batman:

Bale_Kermit.jpg


The point is you don't give up your right to self defense just because someone claims to be the police. The real police need to be careful to establish their identity.
 
No I'm batman:

Bale_Kermit.jpg


The point is you don't give up your right to self defense just because someone claims to be the police. The real police need to be careful to establish their identity.

Well, that's more a debate about the death penalty for 'plain' murder (ie you can't punish more or less, just punish) and the prevalence of arms in society.

Societies that arm themselves routinely can expect much higher numbers of gun deaths. That's statistical fact and human fact and no amount of legislation will change human nature.

The ideal answer is that most people would trust the police or someone who said they were from the police, in American society where law enforcement has a political agenda and very little independent remit I really don't know the answer.
 
Societies that arm themselves routinely can expect much higher numbers of gun deaths. That's statistical fact and human fact and no amount of legislation will change human nature.

...and yet, homicides don't go up with gun freedom.

The ideal answer is that most people would trust the police or someone who said they were from the police

...that answer of course defeats itself. Because no matter what country you're in, or how many guns there are, criminals will always abuse that kind of blind trust - it's human nature.
 
...and yet, homicides don't go up with gun freedom.



...that answer of course defeats itself. Because no matter what country you're in, or how many guns there are, criminals will always abuse that kind of blind trust.

Homicides (and suicides) go up massively with gun freedom, I'm not sure what figures you're looking at?

No, they won't. I can't recall a single case in the UK where criminals commited murder by announcing themselves as armed police?
 
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