[POLL] United States Presidential Elections 2016

The party nominees are named. Now who do you support?


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It is a typical calling card of the left. During the primaries, they try to demonstrate just how far left that they are, but when it comes to the General, they present themselves as moderate to attract independents. It shows that they have classic Bi-polar syndrome since they can turn it on and off at a switch, but it works. It is little wonder why the Independents haven't picked up on it until now.

If you think only one side does this, you're just plain delusional.

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As far as this story about Trump claiming a $916m loss goes, there are really only two possibilities:

1. The loss was his personally, and he had enough in liquid assets to bear it. If this is the case, nothing untoward happened, and there's no story.

2. The loss wasn't his personally, and instead he defaulted on some debt. In this case, the loss isn't his to claim - it belongs to his creditors. Further, that would actually turn the $916m into income for the Donald, under our tax code. He would be liable for several hundred million dollars of income tax on that amount. If he paid that amount, then again, we're left with no wrongdoing, and no story.

However, either of those scenarios requires that Trump had liquid assets of several hundred million dollars. That seems very unlikely, as Trump himself often makes disclaimers about his net worth, saying that much of it is tied up in properties and the value of his "brand."

Now, if it turns out that he did not, in fact, have the ability to absorb either of those scenarios, where does that leave us? That he's parked the debt somewhere, probably offshore in some sort of a trust owned by his children that purchased his debt for pennies on the dollar and isn't bothering to collect on it.

That would certainly constitute tax fraud - at least in the spirit of the law; it would, of course, not be surprising to find that his army of accountants found a loophole to exploit.

It's situations like this that led to the tradition of presidential candidates releasing their returns. And it's why it's starting to look evermore suspicious that he refuses.
 
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No, no double standard at all. I interjected my view on Trump, I didnt demand you give one.

Nothing was "demanded" of you when you levied the claim! You asked me for an explanation the same way you were asked then cried double standard.. Ridiculous!
 
It's situations like this that led to the tradition of presidential candidates releasing their returns. And it's why it's starting to look evermore suspicious that he refuses.

I think if I were him I'd be more convinced than ever that refusing is the right course of action. The American public really cannot handle legitimate tax strategy it seems.
 
Nothing was "demanded" of you when you levied the claim! You asked me for an explanation the same way you were asked then cried double standard.. Ridiculous!
No, see, I know it doesn't come off on the internet, but the first part was a rhetorical question, but to that point it was a question, I didn't demand that you give an equal share of time in your post discussing the other candidate. I asked a question of why. LMSCorvette demands it as a requirement. Do you see the difference?
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Oh, I see. I missed a bit of a key point there. See, you are right, you didn't demand a response from me. Well, that's fine, because that really is pointless in the argument since we are talking about NMS actually demanding both success be discussed. But it also doesn't matter because I was just offering up an opinion free of charge. You didn't have to demand it, and since, well, this is a forum, and offering up opinions and participating in discussion is kind of the point, well... There you go.
 
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I think if I were him I'd be more convinced than ever that refusing is the right course of action. The American public really cannot handle legitimate tax strategy it seems.

If he's engaged in debt parking on this, you'd call that "legitimate?"
 
I think if I were him I'd be more convinced than ever that refusing is the right course of action. The American public really cannot handle legitimate tax strategy it seems.
I think in this case, perhaps it's a bit of a catch 22. Especially if there is something shady to be found. General ignorance of tax codes will only hurt so much. In fact, it could be used to his advantage in a debate if Hillary did try to use it against him. If everything is on the up and up, then simply return citing the codes he followed, the reason things are the way they are and tell her to have her people fact check it. It won't sway people that are already firmly entrenched on one side or the other, and the people who haven't decided should be able to use Google.
But if he doesn't, it definitely looks suspicious. It doesn't matter if he is or isnt following regs since there is no proof other than his word. We all know how he feels about libel, but I'm certainly not of a mind to trust him.
 
If he's engaged in debt parking on this, you'd call that "legitimate?"

You can't do that legitimately in the US. But let's assume, for argument's sake, that he did exploit a real legitimate loophole, a mistake in the tax code, some provision that was never intended to allow someone to escape some tax liability. Yes that's legitimate.

I know that sounds crazy, but how can you tell the difference, really, between a mistake in the tax code and a provision in the tax code? Like, for example, taking a mortgage deduction on a yacht... that's clearly an abuse right? Except congress specifically made it ok to take a mortgage deduction on a boat if it had sleeping quarters, etc. So it's a provision. Is setting up your company headquarters in Deleware to avoid state income tax a loophole or a provision? It's allowed under Deleware law.

There's an example where someone who raised sod for sale was able to be considered a miner of an exhaustible natural resource and was able to take a deduction on the sod as a "natural deposit". That's clearly not what was intended by "natural deposit" or "exhaustible resource" right? Well, if the law allows you to declare your sod an exhaustible resource, that's what it is. We're not talking about getting away with something that violates the letter of the law, we're talking about trying to ascertain the "spirit" of the law, and that's often a very difficult thing to do with the tax code. Because the "spirit" of the tax code is friggin bizarre. In some cases, the "spirit" of the law is that some congressman wanted a provision (maybe including "sod" as a natural resource) to please a voting bloc, or influential group, or contributor. And in the "spirit" of compromise to get the bill signed, it was added as a nonsense provision that everyone knew was a joke, but was fully intentionally added into law. So when a sod farmer who had nothing to do with that comes along and realizes that they have an opportunity to take a natural deposit deduction, what are they to do? Assume that it's a mistake? It may not be.

Tax law is so convoluted that I think the only thing that makes any sense is to determine whether what the person did was legal. There is no "right" when it comes to the US tax code, it's all wrong. All of it violates equal protection, every bit of it should be tossed on its ear.

I think in this case, perhaps it's a bit of a catch 22. Especially if there is something shady to be found. General ignorance of tax codes will only hurt so much. In fact, it could be used to his advantage in a debate if Hillary did try to use it against him. If everything is on the up and up, then simply return citing the codes he followed, the reason things are the way they are and tell her to have her people fact check it. It won't sway people that are already firmly entrenched on one side or the other, and the people who haven't decided should be able to use Google.
But if he doesn't, it definitely looks suspicious. It doesn't matter if he is or isnt following regs since there is no proof other than his word. We all know how he feels about libel, but I'm certainly not of a mind to trust him.

Every one of my buddies in California is a tax fraud, and probably everyone I know in Texas. I posted on this site recently that Texas has a provision where if you buy something online and don't pay sales tax on it you're supposed to get a sales tax form from the county and mail your sales tax to the state. I'd be surprised if anyone in the history of the state has done that. They all just buy their tires off of tirerack.com, grin about not paying sales tax, and move on - tax frauds. In California you're supposed to disclose internet purchases on your income tax form if you don't pay sales tax. Nobody I knew there did that (except myself).

I'd imagine that I could make a tax fraud/criminal out of almost everyone if I took their tax returns and gave them to an angry 50% of the US populace to find flaw with. The only people that might get away from that are people who are career politicians and knew that they'd have to release their tax forms to the public, and so would comply with every last word.
 
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If he's engaged in debt parking on this, you'd call that "legitimate?"
What if...
You do realize he is currently being audited by the IRS. Oh, and I'm sure they do have all of his tax returns.
 
Since we're just making up "what if's", I'm going with the flow.

You'll notice that I emphasized the word "if" in my post to begin with.

But, sure, you got me. Good work. :rolleyes:

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Tax law is so convoluted that I think the only thing that makes any sense is to determine whether what the person did was legal.

Fair point, and I now see what you were getting at earlier.

I'd still like to see him release his returns all the same. His recent bragging that this is all evidence of him being a tax genius would be a lot more admirable if he used this as a chance to say "see, here's how the tax code allowed me do this, and here's the changes I would enact to prevent it."

As it stands, his secrecy unavoidably looks suspicious.
 
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You'll notice that I emphasized the word "if" in my post to begin with.

But, sure, you got me. Good work. :rolleyes:

As it stands, his secrecy unavoidably looks suspicious.
It only looks suspicious if you're on the other side. Trump has been audited numerous times, he's being audited right now. No crimes have arisen out of these audits that I'm aware of so we can say that he's filed his tax returns according to the law so far. If there was something to hide I'm sure the IRS would have found it. Anything else is just fodder for the lamestream media to make incendiary headlines in support of their candidate. I would not be surprised if Trump simply said, "I've been audited many times, never had a problem, I'm not releasing my tax returns because they are private...blah blah blah." He's had no problems so far not following conventional political protocols and I don't think that would hurt him either.
 
No, see, I know it doesn't come off on the internet, but the first part was a rhetorical question, but to that point it was a question, I didn't demand that you give an equal share of time in your post discussing the other candidate. I asked a question of why. LMSCorvette demands it as a requirement. Do you see the difference?
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Oh, I see. I missed a bit of a key point there. See, you are right, you didn't demand a response from me. Well, that's fine, because that really is pointless in the argument since we are talking about NMS actually demanding both success be discussed. But it also doesn't matter because I was just offering up an opinion free of charge. You didn't have to demand it, and since, well, this is a forum, and offering up opinions and participating in discussion is kind of the point, well... There you go.

Well considering I explained it to you, and you still don't get it, and you just tripped over this other users (@playnthru ) post, it seems to provide greatly to the idea that you're just not all that aware of what you're reading. Or you don't care...

Simple enough, I said people like PM who support or is more in line with a Hilary presidency or people like ChurchHouston who are in line with a Trump presidency. We know their stance, we know they're bias, their goal isn't to bring thought provoking conversation of objective reason. They're just posting with an agenda, so yeah it's fine they're free to do it, but doesn't mean that it should go unquestioned every time they do so. Same goes for Sanji, so is it my approach or what? Cause I find it troubling that it's okay to accept when people fall in line with an authority or group of authority (gov't party) but when I question such things it is wrong?

And then you use the last line to exude some point, yet still question my reasoning for doing the whole forum thing as you just put it...I think @playnthru was on to something with the double standard bit.
 
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Well considering I explained it to you, and you still don't get it, and you just tripped over this other users (@playnthru ) post, it seems to provide greatly to the idea that you're just not all that aware of what you're reading. Or you don't care...

Simple enough, I said people like PM who support or is more in line with a Hilary presidency or people like ChurchHouston who are in line with a Trump presidency. We know their stance, we know they're bias, their goal isn't to bring thought provoking conversation of objective reason. They're just posting with an agenda, so yeah it's fine they're free to do it, but doesn't mean that it should go unquestioned every time they do so. Same goes for Sanji, so is it my approach or what? Cause I find it troubling that it's okay to accept when people fall in line with an authority or group of authority (gov't party) but when I question such things it is wrong?

And then you use the last line to exude some point, yet still question my reasoning for doing the whole forum thing as you just put it...I think @playnthru was on to something with the double standard bit.
Ok, so, let me try to get on the same page here then. So you put out there that if someone is going to talk about one candidate, then need to talk about the other, or some how it makes you biased. A notion I challenged. Trying to say it should be a requirement is nonsense and doesn't show real bias. It simply shows your opinion on that one portion of the matter.
Playnthru said something's about Hillary. Fine. I, quite rhetorically, asked how is Trump different. Then went on to give my opinion as to why I thought Trump fit the same bill of incompetence without once even implying some sort of bias.
I fail to see how asking a counter question, rhetorical or not, is the same as requiring talk of both sides or considering them biased if they don't.
That's about the sum of it right? Pretty sure I understood it.
 
Ok, so, let me try to get on the same page here then. So you put out there that if someone is going to talk about one candidate, then need to talk about the other, or some how it makes you biased. A notion I challenged. Trying to say it should be a requirement is nonsense and doesn't show real bias. It simply shows your opinion on that one portion of the matter.

No it makes you bias when you've establish a position on this thread for those of who are aware of it and remember, then it becomes bias. Especially when you only post stuff that makes Trump look bad or you only post stuff that makes Hilary look bad. And only do it based on the media picking it up as wells the personal agenda. What it shows is a lack of intellectual responsibility when posting, and as I said bias.

Playnthru said something's about Hillary. Fine. I, quite rhetorically, asked how is Trump different. Then went on to give my opinion as to why I thought Trump fit the same bill of incompetence without once even implying some sort of bias.
I fail to see how asking a counter question, rhetorical or not, is the same as requiring talk of both sides or considering them biased if they don't.
That's about the sum of it right? Pretty sure I understood it.

So you asked, despite it being tacit that Trump is quite like her, you still asked like I do of people. People make it a point to post anti-Trump or Hilary, and when they do it post after post, they're not here for actual discourse on the situation. Also I wouldn't have questioned (nor did I) @playnthru because he's not a frequent contributer here, that I can just off the bat say "hey why are you subjective" and he doesn't make a post actually showing a potential bias. However when PM shows on a nearly daily basis stuff to peg Trump as well as comments in favor of Hilary over Trump it becomes obvious.

In simple terms, I'm simply doing the same counter questions followed by why a person seems such and such as a reasonable leader. What you're suggesting is I will see anyone post a link for one or the other and then come out and claim bias without taking anything into consideration other than that post. Thus no you don't get the point of my argument and yes your going to bat for nothing other than "seems like this guy is just picking fight with this guy".
 
No it makes you bias when you've establish a position on this thread for those of who are aware of it and remember, then it becomes bias. Especially when you only post stuff that makes Trump look bad or you only post stuff that makes Hilary look bad. And only do it based on the media picking it up as wells the personal agenda. What it shows is a lack of intellectual responsibility when posting, and as I said bias.



So you asked, despite it being tacit that Trump is quite like her, you still asked like I do of people. People make it a point to post anti-Trump or Hilary, and when they do it post after post, they're not here for actual discourse on the situation. Also I wouldn't have questioned (nor did I) @playnthru because he's not a frequent contributer here, that I can just off the bat say "hey why are you subjective" and he doesn't make a post actually showing a potential bias. However when PM shows on a nearly daily basis stuff to peg Trump as well as comments in favor of Hilary over Trump it becomes obvious.

In simple terms, I'm simply doing the same counter questions followed by why a person seems such and such as a reasonable leader. What you're suggesting is I will see anyone post a link for one or the other and then come out and claim bias without taking anything into consideration other than that post. Thus no you don't get the point of my argument and yes your going to bat for nothing other than "seems like this guy is just picking fight with this guy".
The fight, I am thinking, is being pick with me, but that is besides the point here.
Now. It appears I did misunderstand your meaning. But then when you say stuff like this....
Why it's a requirement to me is people tend to be arbiters of the information they post here and other places in regards to this topic, and if one is going to do such they should do so with equal measure.
... I would hope you'd understand where the confusion might come from. Regardless. If you have already predetermined someone has a bias, is it not a fools errand to expect them to give equal credence to the other side?
 
Turned on the radio for a 10 minute drive tonight and the debate was on. It was painful to listen to. All I heard was the two candidates talking over each other and the moderator doing the same thing. Sounded like complete chaos.
 
Talk about hypocritical there
I wasn't aware that The New York Times was running for President or had tried to present themselves as being the bastion of taxation ethics.

Where is it written in their charter that they have a responsibility to disregard news stories that are inconvenient for them to publish? Putting them under the microscope doesn't let Trump off, and nor does calling them out as hypocrites justify Trump's taxation chicanery.
 
Turned on the radio for a 10 minute drive tonight and the debate was on. It was painful to listen to. All I heard was the two candidates talking over each other and the moderator doing the same thing. Sounded like complete chaos.
I recorded the debate and I'm watching it now. I have yelled 'shut up' at the TV three times now. Kaine keeps interrupting Pence.

I'm not the only one who thinks so.

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2016/10/04/focus-group-vice-presidential-debate/
 
I recorded the debate and I'm watching it now. I have yelled 'shut up' at the TV three times now. Kaine keeps interrupting Pence.

I'm not the only one who thinks so.

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2016/10/04/focus-group-vice-presidential-debate/
I did end up watching for about 15 minutes and Pence definitely looked more prepared and dare I say, presidential. Kaine seemed to just be repeating the left wing media talking points from the last year or so and interrupting constantly. I have no idea who that moderator is, don't recall seeing her anywhere else, but she was way, way out of her league. Won't make much difference in the presidential race but it should work in Trump's favour if it does.
 
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Drudge Headline:
Kaine Show.jpg
 
I wasn't aware that The New York Times was running for President or had tried to present themselves as being the bastion of taxation ethics.

Where is it written in their charter that they have a responsibility to disregard news stories that are inconvenient for them to publish? Putting them under the microscope doesn't let Trump off, and nor does calling them out as hypocrites justify Trump's taxation chicanery.
The point though, is that it is a bit ironic to publish articles criticizing a man for not paying taxes whilst the publication company does the same thing as him.

It's not trying to justify Trump, it's making note that they're just as "guilty". Why is he so bad for tax dodging if there's evidence they do it, too?
 
The point though, is that it is a bit ironic to publish articles criticizing a man for not paying taxes whilst the publication company does the same thing as him.

It's not trying to justify Trump, it's making note that they're just as "guilty". Why is he so bad for tax dodging if there's evidence they do it, too?
How does it make him less bad? It just means NYT is just as morally defunct. I certainly don't see it as some sort of vindication for Trumps actions. As Prisonermonkeys points out, they aren't running for president and they aren't claiming to be ethical tax code geniuses. They are reporting a story. One that is probably bringing in click bait cash like whoa.

Which, honestly, probably wasn't Trumps idea anyway. I doubt Trump gave more than a passing glance and a signature here and there as his accountants handled his taxes for him. I am sure he was informed of how they were being processed, but probably had little to do with filing them.
 
Which, honestly, probably wasn't Trumps idea anyway. I doubt Trump gave more than a passing glance and a signature here and there as his accountants handled his taxes for him. I am sure he was informed of how they were being processed, but probably had little to do with filing them.
Ultimately, he's the one who is accountable. It's his companies, his money, and his name and signature on the tax returns. I seriously doubt that he had no idea what was happening, especially since the implication is that Trump used that tax loophole to deliberately avoid paying taxes for twenty years. My - admittedly limited - understanding is that the law is designed to help companies and individuals recover from bankruptcy or difficulties in their cash flow; if that's the case, it certainly wasn't intended to get you out of paying taxes for twenty years. If your situation is so bad that you need twenty years to recover from it, then serious questions need to be answered about your ability to manage money.
 
Most people are - or should be - jealous of Donald's great good fortune and wealth. Not just he, but all of us, have a sacred obligation to pay as little taxes as possible, and to justify it with 100% legal means, per the law. As long as he, you, and I follow the law, it should be okay.
 
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