[POLL] United States Presidential Elections 2016

[xyloscissor]

It is absolutely insane to me how people have no willingness to read the constitution, seriously is it so hard to first know what we are before condemning us?

What gives?

 

[AerodyManiac]

http://letmegooglethat.com/?q=what+form+of+government+does+the+u.s.+have

The link that you provided also says that the US is a liberal democracy. So which one am I supposed to believe now?

 

[xyloscissor]

Whatever you wish, I know what our government is, and it's very far from a democracy.

 

[McLaren]

The link that you provided also says that the US is a liberal democracy. So which one am I supposed to believe now?

It certainly does not. Perhaps you'll be more honest next time and include the fact that "Federal Republic", "Constitutional Republic", & "Presidential System" are also there.

Those are links to what those mean because they are commonly associated with the United States.

The Federal Government of the United States is the federal government of the United States, a republic in North America, composed of 50 states, one district, Washington, D.C. (the nation's capital), and several territories.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_government_of_the_United_States

The United States of America (USA), commonly referred to as the United States (U.S.) or America, is a federal republic composed of 50 states, a federal district, five major self-governing territories, and various possessions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States

It is absolutely insane to me how people have no willingness to read the constitution, seriously is it so hard to first know what we are before condemning us?

What gives?

You don't even need to read the Constitution; it's in the Pledge of Allegiance.

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.”

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Trump wants the US and Russia to shrink their nuclear arsenals.

How odd.

Only odd if you listened to MSNBC all during the election Trump wants to go to nuclear war, if you listened to other outlets not named fox, you'd hear that it's unclear what Trump wants. However, Trump seems to want proliferation, but at the same time wants to allow nations are hard-line allies of the U.S. to potentially be armed to defend themselves. Especially against groups like N. Korea, so the U.S. doesn't have to.

We are not a democratic republic. We are recognized as a federal republic.





I'm sure there's a silly Buzzfeed article out there that tries to play semantics in arguing why we're a democracy because of literal definitions.

That and the fact that as you've pointed out, the U.S. is a federal republic or originated as that, hence how the founding parties were the republican and federalists. But clearly people that aren't taught this from 4th grade onward know better. And it's not to say they can't know better, it's just funny that automatically the people talking in the political forum about their nation, don't know anything at all. To the point where the word polarizing is being split rather than talking about the true nature of discussion. Why one or two people seem to have a skewed view, and when corrected, still keep on the same skewed path, I'd like to know

 

[xyloscissor]

Feel free to disagree with this but I didn't search for something in my favor I looked for something unbiased for what it is worth.

As a constitutional republic, the United States government is controlled by its Constitution, which sets forth the relative political power of the people, the federal government and the state governments. As a federal republic, the power ultimately sits with the people through their ability to elect their federal and state representatives. The federal government is restricted by the sharing of power with the states as delineated in the Constitution. Although some people like to call the United States a democracy, this is technically not the case because people do not directly control legislation, but only do so through their elected representatives.

https://www.reference.com/government-politics/type-government-united-states-c747e430102f5554#

I could go on and on about how our constitution is written which would further my cause but that requires reading the constitution which is something no one wants to do. It clearly outlines how we do things and to be frank the label doesn't mean much but it's very clear by how our voting etc works that we are not democracy, even the power of state proves that pretty well imo.

Democracy? No.

 

[Tornado]

There was also a long period of time where about half of the elected officials in the legislature weren't even directly elected.

 

[xyloscissor]

Being a republic is a great thing, it guards us from idiotic minorities such as the anti trump camp and at the same time protects them to have their say. That is why we love being a republic.

 

[McLaren]

I'm still trying to understand the argument that Elections=Democracy.

 

[xyloscissor]

It's the democratic republic of the united states lol, talk about an oxymoron. No wonder we should ditch the electoral college? I know I know, I said that already

If you pull up the constitution full text you will not find anything about democracy at all, zero, zip. You will however find this.

The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.

 

[eran0004]

We are not a democratic republic. We are recognized as a federal republic.

I'm sure a lot of republicans or anti-democrats (meaning the party rather than democracy itself) likes to think about it that way, that being a federal republic excludes it from being a democracy, but the fact is that you are using a system of representative democracy for the legislative power (congress) and you also elect the head of state and government (the executive power), i.e. the president. You separate the powers in a legislative, an executive and a judicial branch and you recognise some basic human rights that apply to all citizens. Let's take a look at some definitions:

First the one you provided yourself, in which I'll highlight the part you missed:

the citizens exercise power directly or elect representatives from among themselves to form a governing body

And the one about republic:

...power resides in elected individuals representing the citizen body

By the definitions you provided yourself, a republic is a form of democracy.

Some other definitions, first Larry Diamond:

According to political scientist Larry Diamond, democracy consists of four key elements: (a) A political system for choosing and replacing the government through free and fair elections; (b) The active participation of the people, as citizens, in politics and civic life; (c) Protection of the human rights of all citizens, and (d) A rule of law, in which the laws and procedures apply equally to all citizens.

Merriam-Webster:

1a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority
1b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections

2: a political unit that has a democratic government

Democracy-building.info:

Form of government, where a constitution guarantees basic personal and political rights, fair and free elections, and independent courts of law.

/.../

In order to deserve the label modern democracy, a country needs to fulfill some basic requirements - and they need not only be written down in it's constitution but must be kept up in everyday life by politicians and authorities:

• Guarantee of basic Human Rights to every individual person vis-à-vis the state and its authorities as well as vis-à-vis any social groups (especially religious institutions) and vis-à-vis other persons.
• Separation of Powers between the institutions of the state:
  Government [Executive Power],
  Parliament [Legislative Power] und
  Courts of Law [Judicative Power]
• Freedom of opinion, speech, press and massmedia
• Religious liberty
• General and equal right to vote (one person, one vote)
• Good Governance (focus on public interest and absence of corruption)

Abraham Lincoln:

Government of the people, by the people, for the people

Going by those definitions, the US is most certainly a democracy. But the denial of that is certainly on par with quite a lot of the other reasoning that has been going on in this thread.

 

[xyloscissor]

Anyway, back to reality.

The united states was formed by rich men already in power of some sort, why on earth would they have decided to form a democracy that would serve against them? Because they were idiots I'm sure. I'd so much rather see people argue against what they don't like about our form of government rather than making things up.

A republic, so much so voting rights themselves were very restricted. Still don't believe me?

 

[AerodyManiac]

The countries that put any variety of "Republic" or "Democratic" in their letterhead are usually the last ones you should go off of as a point of comparison to what either word means.

So you're saying that neither Taiwan nor France, nor Germany are republics then?

It's the democratic republic of the united states lol, talk about an oxymoron.

'Yeah, let's label somebody who holds a different opinion regarding a matter an oxymoron!'

Feel free to disagree with this but I didn't search for something in my favor I looked for something unbiased for what it is worth.




https://www.reference.com/government-politics/type-government-united-states-c747e430102f5554#

I could go on and on about how our constitution is written which would further my cause but that requires reading the constitution which is something no one wants to do. It clearly outlines how we do things and to be frank the label doesn't mean much but it's very clear by how our voting etc works that we are not democracy, even the power of state proves that pretty well imo.

Democracy? No.

Interesting. The link you provided also states that the US is a democratic republic.

 

[xyloscissor]

How can you think that democratic and republic can be said in the the same breath? Makes no sense, sure there are some democratic aspects to our government I won't deny you that however...

We are a constitutional regulated republic, that is what we are. Please don't make me quote the constitution over and over again, just read it.

Why on earth would I argue the fact if it was not true? If we were a democracy I would freely state that, I'm not having a dog in the fight so to say, I'm simply stating fact.

Democracy? No.

 

[andrea]

Screaming.

America is actually building a wall.

Also this whole debacle around defunding Planned Parenthood makes no sense to me....you hate abortions so you want to defund those guys? Wouldn't that increase unintended pregnancies therefore abortions?

 

[McLaren]

I'm sure a lot of republicans or anti-democrats (meaning the party rather than democracy itself) likes to think about it that way, that being a federal republic excludes it from being a democracy, but the fact is that you are using a system of representative democracy for the legislative power (congress) and you also elect the head of state and government (the executive power), i.e. the president. You separate the powers in a legislative, an executive and a judicial branch and you recognise some basic human rights that apply to all citizens. Let's take a look at some definitions:

Ah, there's that Buzzfeed argument about using literal definitions despite the fact democracy & republic both have different definitions already outlined; a democracy is usually decided by the citizens themselves, a republic is decided by people who represent those citizens i.e. the Electoral College.

At the end of the day, we are recognized as a federal republic, not a sole democracy as you tried argue. Have democratic tendencies does not change what we are, esp. your empty argument that Elections=Democracy.

 

[eran0004]

The united states was formed by rich men already in power of some sort, why on earth would they have decided to form a democracy that would serve against them?

Because of the enlightenment, which came as a reaction against the rise of absolute monarchies in Europe in the early modern era.

Because they were idiots I'm sure.

Because they were educated and because they studied the French philosophers.

I'd so much rather see people argue against what they don't like about our form of government rather than making things up.

Recognising the US as a liberal democracy is "making things up"? This is getting absurd.

Wikipedia:

Liberal democracy is a liberal political ideology and a form of government in which representative democracyoperates under the principles of classical liberalism. It is also called western democracy. It is characterised by fair, free, and competitive electionsbetween multiple distinct political parties, a separation of powers into different branches of government, the rule of law in everyday life as part of an open society, and the equal protection of human rights, civil rights, civil liberties, and political freedoms for all people. To define the system in practice, liberal democracies often draw upon a constitution, either formally written or uncodified, to delineate the powers of government and enshrine the social contract. After a period of sustained expansion throughout the 20th century, liberal democracy became the predominant political system in the world.

A liberal democracy may take various constitutional forms: it may be a constitutional monarchy (Australia, Belgium, Canada, Japan, Norway, the United Kingdom) or a republic (France, India, Ireland, the United States). It may have a parliamentary system (Australia, India, Ireland, Italy, the United Kingdom), a presidential system(Indonesia, the United States), or a semi-presidential system (France, Taiwan).

 

[xyloscissor]

Oh, now we are a liberal democracy

Who is absurd?

I honestly believe that your ideas and arguments will stand on their own, some of us have proved you wrong so you can keep on going all you want.

Most of what you say is a farce imo and I'm content in thinking I've countered it well enough for the younger ones to see the truth.

lol the u.s. is a democracy, lol Trump is the end of the u.s., lol whatever other unsubstantiated things you said. My case has been made.

 

[Tornado]

And still Famine's post is ignored.

So you're saying that neither Taiwan nor France, nor Germany are republics then?

Nope. That's why the word "usually" was appended to that sentence; since you used China as a point of comparison.


But since you obviously knew why I said that since now you are bringing up France and Germany, I think we're done here.

 

[xyloscissor]

Which Famine post?

 

[Tornado]

The one on the previous page eran is pretending doesn't exist.

 

[eran0004]

At the end of the day, we are recognized as a federal republic, not a sole democracy as you tried argue.

Let's return to the bus analogy for a while and see what it can teach us:

A: "This is a vehicle (liberal democracy)."

B: "No, it's clearly a bus (federal republic)."

A: "Yes, but the bus is a kind of vehicle."

B: "No, it can only be a bus. It can't be two different things at the same time. A vehicle-bus, that would be ridiculous. Stop making things up and explain what you have against buses instead."

Oh, now we are a liberal democracy

Who is absurd?

And yet you have nothing to counter with, but an emoticon. If that is the strongest argument that you have it's absurd that you still believe in the things you say.

 

[xyloscissor]

I have no idea what that post is saying at all. That does not concern me however, I've tried to explain to you in an unbiased way but you won't have it.

I don't know any other way to converse with you tbh, I hope you can come up with some sort of realities to back what you post in this thread. I seriously doubt you can come up with anything that overcomes my reasoning.

 

[AerodyManiac]

How can you think that democratic and republic can be said in the the same breath?

That's because these two words aren't mutually exclusive.

Why on earth would I argue the fact if it was not true? If we were a democracy I would freely state that, I'm not having a dog in the fight so to say, I'm simply stating fact.

Democracy? No.

I wouldn't say it's a fact if there's still room for argument regarding the matter.

Also, some of you can argue that those who hold opposite opinion have Buzzfeed as their sole food for thought, or you can simply accept that these people form their opinions through thinking.

 

[McLaren]

Let's return to the bus analogy for a while and see what it can teach us:

No, let's return to the 2 definitions I noticed you edited to fit your argument.

the citizens exercise power directly or elect representatives from among themselves to form a governing body

What it actually said.

Democracy (Greek: δημοκρατία, Dēmokratía literally "rule of the commoners"), in modern usage, is a system of government in which the citizens exercise power directly or elect representatives from among themselves to form a governing body, such as a parliament.

Notice that our governing body is split unlike a parliament.

...power resides in elected individuals representing the citizen body

What it actually said.

The indirect election of the president through the electoral college conforms to the concept of republic as one with a system of indirect election.
A republic (from Latin: res publica) is a sovereign state or country[1] which is organized with a form of government in which power resides in elected individuals representing the citizen body[2][3] and government leaders exercise power according to the rule of law.

You attempted to conjure them as the same thing, and yet, if they were, they would fall under the same page. You've also altered your argument from "we're a democracy" to now, "we're a liberal democracy" because it fits your argument better. And continuously forget the basic difference between "democracy" and "republic" to begin with.

A Democracy would have resulted in Hillary being elected because the citizens voted for her in the majority.

 

[xyloscissor]

I don't think you only listen to buzzfeed @GT HP Nut.

I don't disrespect your opinion either, sorry if I came off that way. I will stand very firm that the United States of America Government is not a democracy however. So what?

Read our founding fathers if you have not, I mean read them without an agenda

A democracy? No.







Tell me who said this and how much influence he had on our constitution please.

A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.

Ok that was not fair as it's not even proven however this one is very much on the spot. It is also very fair to state that our fathers had a hatred for democracy, it simply is.

A pure Democracy, by which I mean a Society consisting of a small number of citizens, who assemble and administer the Government in person, can admit of no cure for the mischiefs of faction. A common passion or interest will, in almost every case, be felt by a majority of the whole; a communication and concert result from the form of Government itself; and there is nothing to check the inducements to sacrifice the weaker party, or an obnoxious individual. Hence it is, that such Democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security, or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives, as they have been violent in their deaths. Theoretic politicians, who have patronized this species of Government, have erroneously supposed, that by reducing mankind to a perfect equality in their political rights, they would, at the same time, be perfectly equalized and assimilated in their possessions, their opinions, and their passions.

Most likely my greatest hero said that 👍

 

[eran0004]

No, let's return to the 2 definitions I noticed you edited to fit your argument.

Yes, let's do that and see what we find.

Notice that our governing body is split unlike a parliament.

Parliaments can be unicameral, bicameral (the British parliament is bicameral, just like the US congress) or have other structures, more or less complex. The congress is a form of parliament, and more importantly it is precisely the kind of governing body that the definition of democracy refers to.

What it actually said.

And absolutely nothing in that definition excludes a republic from being democratic. Or should I interpret your use of boldface as you considering a democracy to be a government exercising power in absence or violation of law? And if that's the case, where do you find support for such a definition of democracy?

Again, as it seems like the bus analogy wasn't simple enough: republic and democracy are not mutually exclusive. Just like a bus can also be a vehicle, a republic can also be democratic.

You attempted to conjure them as the same thing, and yet, if they were, they would fall under the same page. You've also altered your argument from "we're a democracy" to now, "we're a liberal democracy" because it fits your argument better.

Liberal democracy is a form of democracy, just like a sports car is a form of car. The US is a democracy, and it's a liberal democracy, and it's a presidential democracy, and it's a federation, and it's a republic, and it's a federal republic. Just like you are a human, and an American, and an organism, etc. Things are very rarely just one thing.

And continuously forget the basic difference between "democracy" and "republic" to begin with.

They are different terms, but again: not mutually exclusive.

A Democracy would have resulted in Hillary being elected because the citizens voted for her in the majority.

Not at all, it doesn't have to be a direct vote. Voting for someone to represent you fits the definition as well, just look at the use of parliaments.

As for the electoral college, some may claim that it would be more democratic to have a direct vote, while others may claim that such a system would favour the big cities on the expense of rural areas and smaller towns. There is nothing that suggests that one of these systems would be more democratic than the other.

The key component here is that there is a free, fair and public election.

 

[xyloscissor]

The key component here is that there is a free, fair and public election.

And that is exactly what occurred under our law, something we've been doing for quite some time 👍

 

[eran0004]

And that is exactly what occurred under our law, something we've been doing for quite some time 👍

So then we agree that it's indeed a democracy?

 

[xyloscissor]

Not by a country mile.