Poor design makes throttle way too touchy for Dualshock players

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cakefoo
Please go here for the video:
Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BojZZQiX5w
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0DS9hrgEGU

Here's an illustration to explain what I'm measuring:
http://i40.tinypic.com/2uykr2x.jpg

Response curve graph that shows the uncontrollably exponential increase in sensitivity:
http://i40.tinypic.com/2u7ubmo.jpg

There are scenarios where I'd want to have fine control in the 50-100% range. For instance, this clip of Forza 2 shows the player using 50-90% throttle whenever the situation calls for that perfect blend of speed and control:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJgS-wXhN24

Someone asked me to rig a test where a gauge is mounted more steadily on the controller so that it was clearer to prove, so I did a second test for Part 2, which you can see linked at the top of this post.

The Playstation.com community responded courteously, though some tried to just criticize my driving technique. The moderators ultimately felt that it would do no good to talk about it further on their message boards, so after just one day of discussion, they locked my thread that I put so many hours into:
http://bit.ly/OZ4DO

I was told that their forum had only ONE Sony employee and that he only had 50 posts.

I did as was suggested: I pm'ed amar212 on the GTPlanet forums on July 5th. A week after I got a Read receipt, he still hasn't replied.

The issue keeps falling on deaf ears, so I don't really know what to say other than, I'm looking at other console sims for a more suitable control pad experience.
 
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You are spot on,during some low speed corners the throttle on dualshock can ruin a good lap,having less TCS means you have to be careful with the throttle but on the dualshock its either full throttle or full lift,you can't really manage the acceleration midway
 
I know what you mean, I have this problem too, but it is less of a problem if you use the R3 stick for accelerating instead of the triggers.
 
May be that works but I like to use x and square both for throttle and braking at the same time to keep the car from loosing traction
 
I have no problems and I use the X and Square buttons for throttle and brake. 👍 I can easily manage quarter, half or three quarters throttle with the buttons, it just takes practice.
 
You are spot on,during some low speed corners the throttle on dualshock can ruin a good lap,having less TCS means you have to be careful with the throttle but on the dualshock its either full throttle or full lift,you can't really manage the acceleration midway
And the brake IS linear, so it's not a hardware problem. It's software. Also, the GT5:P demo (downloaded off the Japan PSN) and GT:HD have different response curves, in that they have a more controllable range of sensitivity in the upper 50-100% throttle. They're not as linear as they could be, but they're at least more linear than GT5:P.

I've also tried GT4 with triggers, and it's not linear either.
 
I know what you mean, I have this problem too, but it is less of a problem if you use the R3 stick for accelerating instead of the triggers.
Go look at the gauge when you press up to accelerate. When the gauge is 25-50% full, it's moving smoothly. Once you pass 50% and into the 75% range, the graphical increments begin to get larger.

Now go try braking, and you'll see the increments remain smooth the entire range.
 
Go look at the gauge when you press up to accelerate. When the gauge is 25-50% full, it's moving smoothly. Once you pass 50% and into the 75% range, the graphical increments begin to get larger.

Now go try braking, and you'll see the increments remain smooth the entire range.

Yeah, I mean it's still a problem with the R3 stick, but not quite as much as with the triggers.

A problem with the R3 stick though is that there is a 'dead area' around the full throttle mark, so if, say, I tried to apply 90% throttle, I would infact be applying 100% throttle.

I don't think I put that very clearly, but you may know what I mean.
 
Yeah, this is a problem with both the stick and triggers. I never measured it out like you did, but it was extremely irritating to me that full throttle was applied before I had fully depressed the trigger. I could never get any precision in the upper throttle range. A one to one mapping would work the best, and be the most simple.
 
I have no problems and I use the X and Square buttons for throttle and brake. 👍 I can easily manage quarter, half or three quarters throttle with the buttons, it just takes practice.
25% increments aren't very precise, but you're basically right. X feels more linear on-screen response from start to finish. The reason it functions more linear is because a pressure sensitive button gives off an exponential resistance as you press in further, which matches the exponential response curve in the software. If you think about it, the series has always been designed to be played with pressure sensitive buttons up through GT4. Well, the analog stick was always an option though, so, it's a mystery why with the advent of the stick and the new triggers, they still haven't catered to those players.

Problem with buttons is, being buttons, they have a very tiny, tense, and sticky 0-100% effective range, plus you never know where 100% is. In contrast, when you squeeze R2, or press a real gas pedal with your foot, the resistance is smooth and calm, and there is an absolute physical limit where the pedal hits the floor, telling you, "this is 100% throttle, slightly less is 95%, 90%, etc." With a button, you don't know where 100% is unless you're looking at the gauge at the bottom of the screen, and that's just not smart, taking your eyes off the road. It's also easier for the X button to pop up when you meant to give it 25% throttle, which takes your virtual foot off the gas, adding valuable milliseconds to your laptime.
 
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Yeah, I mean it's still a problem with the R3 stick, but not quite as much as with the triggers.

A problem with the R3 stick though is that there is a 'dead area' around the full throttle mark, so if, say, I tried to apply 90% throttle, I would infact be applying 100% throttle.

I don't think I put that very clearly, but you may know what I mean.
Yeah, I know what you mean- when the onscreen gauge is full, you still haven't hit the physical limit of the stick/trigger.
 
If anyone has GT:HD or the Japanese GT5:P demo, there are actually differences in the response curves between them and the retail GT5:P. They aren't perfectly linear either, BUT they are more controllable in the 50-100% range:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiJdwn_8uws

I made that video over a year ago, but at the time it was considered meaningless to some because of the element of human error, although I myself knew it to be reliable becase I had repeated the motions dozens of times on and off-camera to be sure.
 
I know exactly what you mean; in fact, this was one of the reasons for me to buy a DFGT and a WSP...
I understand not everyone is able to do so and really hope PD rectify this for GT5
 
Try moving throttle and brake to L2 and R2, respectively. You get a much better control of the throttle and brake that way. Move the gear shift to the right joystick, or X and Square. I got a time as low as 2:28 on Suzuka full in the '91 NSX with S2 tyres.
But I bought a Driving Force GT, now. Rudimentary in execution of switching to a wheel, but a wheel nonetheless. :D
 
Agree completely. Until I got a wheel, I played GT4 and GT: P all the time with a controller and always thought GT4 gave you more throttle control with the X button.
 
Im playing with the SIXAXIS and without any driving aids.
I accelerate/break with the right stick and it works pretty good.
But sensitivity options would be cool.
 
You will be real mad when you get your wheel and the gas pedal is the same way. Only difference is the "switch" is like 10 times bigger. You are splitting hairs. There are guys that use controllers and they are just as fast as guys with wheel/pedals.

I personally think the white throttle gauge is off, not the buttons. The gauge will say I have 95% throttle applied, but I only have 1/2 the pedal depressed, and when I press it down all the way I get a lot more than 5% power.

And what is amar212 going to do about it? I thought that was kind of funny.
 
You will be real mad when you get your wheel and the gas pedal is the same way. Only difference is the "switch" is like 10 times bigger. You are splitting hairs. There are guys that use controllers and they are just as fast as guys with wheel/pedals.
A wheel is undeniably better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kdl3aVpBnjk

Notice as he regulates the amount of throttle around corners, often holding it at a very steady value in the 70-90% range through the turn.

I personally think the white throttle gauge is off, not the buttons. The gauge will say I have 95% throttle applied, but I only have 1/2 the pedal depressed, and when I press it down all the way I get a lot more than 5% power.
Not true. There's hardly any perceivable jump in power.
 
First off, that guy isnt even that good. Everything he does can be done with a controller.

Second, I use mid engine cars the most (111R tuned mainly) and with as much lift-off oversteer they have small amounts of throttle are vital. I know how much throttle im giving the car to keep it straight, and the gauge is simply wrong. Half throttle doesnt show up as half throttle. Holding 3/4 throttle with the trigger or X button is very possible, I used a controller for years. which brings me to my last point.

Third- Ive had a wheel for almost 6 months, Ive noticed everything there is to notice... the gas pedal is a much bigger trigger or X button. Yes a wheel is better, obviously, the throttle switch is 10x bigger.

I understand what you are saying, I just think the gauge is wrong.

edit- I just used R2 for throttle, I could hold any position throttle. One thing I did notice is the how stupid controllers are for racing games. X is better for gas IMO, but the L2 and R2 buttons are signifigantly harder to pull in last 25% or so, that is the problem most likely. Also, using R2 and L2 to zoom in and out on the web you will notice the first 25% is just freeplay, it does nothing. After you adjust all your graphs and charts for that large amount of freeplay It will even out.
 
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Say what you want about his driving skill, I picked the first video I found. The purpose of the video is to show that he at least has the technique to give it as much throttle as possible without slipping, and that oftentimes can be found in the 60-90% range. And forget the argument that it's the gauge that's non-linear, because I can tell by the sound of the engine, the tilt of the nose and the grip on my tires how much power is coming out of the engine, and it's exponential. Plus, if someone would do a pedal test like I did with the trigger, I'm sure it would look perfect.
 
Im playing with the SIXAXIS and without any driving aids.
I accelerate/brake with the right stick and it works pretty good.
I've been doing that since GT1. Four and a half games so far, and I've never had any problems feathering the throttle using the stick. Honestly, it's hard for me to imagine controlling a DualShock any differently. I do have a wheel, but I only pull it out for long sessions of driving.. if I just want to go for a quick spin, I just use the controller.
 
edit- I just used R2 for throttle, I could hold any position throttle.
I can too, if I'm looking directly at the gauge.

But I can't go by FEEL because, while it takes 5mm to get to 50%, it only takes a 6th millimeter to get to 100%. Accounting for the deadzone at the beginning of the squeeze, it still takes about 4mm to get to 50%. So that's about a 4:1 hike in sensitivity, all of a sudden, and you just can't gauge that by feel. It's like playing an FPS with a mouse and being forced to use mouse acceleration.

One thing I did notice is the how stupid controllers are for racing games. X is better for gas IMO, but the L2 and R2 buttons are signifigantly harder to pull in last 25% or so, that is the problem most likely.
I don't have any trouble. It all feels basically linear in terms of resistance from start to end. Just that at the very start, in the deadzone, it's more loose.
 
Im so relived that other people have actually noticed this problem. I've tried posting on the Playstaion forums about this in the past, only to be be told, "If you don't like the controller - buy a wheel". I consider this one of the biggest flaws/limitations in GT5P

(alot of this has probably already been mentioned)...
Personally, I can't understand why they couldn't program the L2/R2 triggers, joysticks (whatever method of accelerating or braking being used) to have an even response in the game throughout their full range of movement.

For example, I know for a fact that in GT5P (PAL) when you apply the throttle gradually and consistently using the triggers or joysticks, the throttle slowly increases to around the 50% mark in-game and then quickly shoots up to 100%. This makes it extremely hard to control the higher-end cars with a lot of power during cornering, as you need to be accelerating around the 75% mark usually, which is quite hard to do on a controller because of these issues.

Just out of curiousity, I went back and tried GT4 because I never remembered having these problems in the previous GT's, and sure enough the accelerator and brake seem both spot-on to me. They both respond in the same way and are pretty much linear - no quick jumping up to 100% throttle like in GT5P.

I'm unsure as to whether it would be a hardware or software problem that is causing this, but apparently as others have said, the response of the accelerator and brake in GT:HD is different again. So this might mean it is a software thing in the way that PD have programmed it.

It only seems to be a controller issue too - all pedals I have seen being used on GT5P respond evenly without all this jumping up to 100% quickly business. So for now I've just been using my ancient driving force steering wheel for GT5P, since it's just too difficult to drive the faster RWD cars using the controller as a result of these problems.

As people have said, the brake doesn't seem as bad as the accelerator, but this leads to the question : why have they designed them to have different response curves like this?

(by the way this is my first post on here, guess this thread was finally enough to convice me to join haha. Hello to all the fellow racers on here:))

Hopefully PD will fix this in GT5
 
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anyone who plays the game and the wheel has figured out there is a huge difference, its pretty common knowledge I thought. the real men are separated by getting all golds with just the controller no wheel no driving aids either. that combined with the g5p 'professional' setting has increased the difficulty while also creating a much more realistic driving sensation. i am a g1 to g5p player who is happy still with the controller. but still most definitely use the wheel for all my top 'best ever' records. counter argument I still have many records I am proud of with the controller as well, here is my best example... g4 with the Benz Sauber on Nurburgring with the controller and no aids = fun but surly no record lap will be obtained.

have a good day racing. I just bought g5p got all my licenses already but trying to get all golds with the controller is hard on professional, i like it alot! Experts PM me, I am not on the boards much is there a Nurburgring for gt5p yet? Can we get it?
 
Fully agree.... the DS2 had much better modulation, thats why i cant wait to get a wheel...

Its also because the DS3 controller buttons are stiffer at first, so i cannot give a small amount of throttle, with the DS2 i could press it incredibly softly while the DS3 i cant to push it slightly i need to push it past its hard spot and by that point ive reached 50% throttle and i oversteer.
 
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