Porsche 911 GT3 (991) Announced!

[Stotty]

My realistic dream car... and I absolutely love the styling (particularly good in Guards!)... the stance is just perfect

I'm less bothered by the change to PDK (which is a dual clutch box, Semi's... automated manual transmission, rather than an 'automatic' in the true sense of the term)... a manual box in a car this fast might be nice to use, but becomes more of a hindrance. PDK will make it better for track days, reduce lap times and increase performance.

I can't wait to hear what it sounds like at 9k - a mate of mine has a 997.1 GT3, and that sounds utterly glorious. And what will they do for the RS version... maybe a capacity increase to 4.0l and over 500bhp

The interior doesn't look very GT3 though... but I guess there's not much they can do about this as the base car's interior is now so 'plush'. Stick the cage and some fixed back buckets in it and it might look a bit more the part... the gear selector is trully hiddeous.

 

[sems4arsenal]

Thanks for the answer luminis oh and it can't be unseen now

 

[Leonidae@MFT]

The GT-R is just a computer with some turbos strapped to it. It isn't inspired or interesting in the slightest to me, and I read more and more about how it just feels soulless to drive.

Pretty sure you've seen my many rants on AWD and heavy ass cars that rely on it to move.

And 911 GT3 is just souped up Beetle with scaffolding in the back, and direct line can be drawn between it and original Kubelwagen of the Nazi regime. Also could you show me this soul you speak of? Can you touch it, feel it, see it, taste it? It's a machine, not a fictional anime character. And you should be happy of the GT-R, since it has forced Porsche to do the same what NSX forced Ferrari to do in the 90's. You can't deny that they weren't getting sloppy around 996 gen..

 

[Luminis]

Also could you show me this soul you speak of? Can you touch it, feel it, see it, taste it?

Speaking about cars... I'd say, yes, you can feel it. You can feel it indeed.

 

[LongbowX]

The GT-R is just a computer with some turbos strapped to it. It isn't inspired or interesting in the slightest to me, and I read more and more about how it just feels soulless to drive.

Pretty sure you've seen my many rants on AWD and heavy ass cars that rely on it to move.

And 911 GT3 is just souped up Beetle with scaffolding in the back, and direct line can be drawn between it and original Kubelwagen of the Nazi regime. Also could you show me this soul you speak of? Can you touch it, feel it, see it, taste it? It's a machine, not a fictional anime character. And you should be happy of the GT-R, since it has forced Porsche to do the same what NSX forced Ferrari to do in the 90's. You can't deny that they weren't getting sloppy around 996 gen..

It certainly is a computer with turbos strapped to it. But it sure is fun. People have different definitions about what 'fun' is, and certainly what 'soul' is. Soul could be defined as what you can connect to - and since everyone is different, people can connect to different things. I think you'd probably look at owners of any kind of car, and find that the ones who are passionate have a connection to it - from the lowliest Hyundai to the GT-R and beyond. I personally find the GT-R engaging - and I do agree in it forcing Porsche to step up its game. You can read as much about how 'soulless' it feels, though that seems like a bit of a confirmation bias - you already admit to not liking it, so you remember the things that you want to remember to reinforce it. I personally don't think it's really true, as everyone has a different opinion - and most importantly, the people who own one don't feel that way about it I bet. So it's completely irrelevant. You're more than entitled to not like it, however.

As per the GT3, I do like it...but not as much as the 997 (original). The rear wing was better integrated, and I feel the front fascia is a bit too busy. Does it detract from the overall effect - a little. Do I still want one - yeah I kinda do.

 

[Joey D]

Oh look, another thread that's going to turn into a GT-R love fest.

And I apologize if this is a "can't be unseen" thing, but have you guys noticed that the vent beneath the bonnet, in combination with the headlights, forms an incredibly derpy smiley face?

Most car designs now herp the derp when it comes to the "face" of it.

Since when is a manual transmission only used for "hoonery"?

I can't think of any other reason to have a manual in a car other than you find it fun. From a performance perspective manuals are antiquated and are totally eclipsed by double-clutches, especially good double-clutches like the PDK. The PDK makes for a better track car and that's really all the GT3 is out to accomplish.

And before some jumps all over me, no I don't mind manuals, just like I don't mind playing the original Nintendo. Just because something is antiquated doesn't mean it still can't be fun.

===

This is probably the best look Porsche I've seen in a long time too, even though the design has always been more or less the same thing I think the little details this time around really compliment the shape nicely. I'll be curious to see how it performs, but going by the past models I assume it's going to perform quite well.

 

[niky]

Since when is a manual transmission only used for "hoonery"?

My post was not meant to say that a manual is only meant for hoonery. A manual is a very good option for economical driving. Of which I'm a big fan. I'm also a big fan of track days, and it's satisfying banging through the gears on your own, and heel-and-toeing downshifts into a corner under braking... now that I finally... after over twenty years of driving... can actually heel and toe.

But on a track car like the GT3, a PDK makes more sense. Faster shifts. Less torque interruption to upset the balance between shifts. It's smoother. No borking a gearchange or grinding synchros. The extra weight is still there, but on a car this powerful, it's negligible.

I see only two advantages for the manual on track. One, the ability to custom-tune your launch. Something you don't need when you have PASM and launch control. And two, the ability to tune the cornering balance by playing with the clutch. That last one won't really make the car faster on the racetrack, though, given the typically incredible grip of a GT3, and whatever you gain there will be lost in every shift you need to make on track.

Except for launches, many racecars don't utilize a clutch. And when possible, they don't use a gearstick.

-----

This is approaching it from Porsche's point of view. With the GT3, they're taking a very "GTR-ish" approach. Who cares what people say. Whatever makes it faster, that's what we put in. Hence PASM. Hence four-wheel steering. Hence the PDK.

 

[Exorcet]

The one reason for not offering a manual is because the GT3 is meant for racetrack use instead of hoonery.

Race track use doesn't necessarily imply PDK. A race is a race and a lap is a lap no matter what you're using. There isn't really anything out there that is about pure speed since most races have arbitrary rules.

I'm not saying it needs a manual, but a track car doesn't actually need to be the fastest thing physically possible. It's a point missed a lot on road cars because they don't usually race, even the sporty ones.

Personally I'm all for going fast, but I want to do the driving. Removing the clutch doesn't bother me too much (though I'd like to have one too), but launch control and traction/stability control are out, always.

 

[Stotty]

The GT3 and GTR don't really work as comparrisons as they have a completely different philosophy... Porche have a Turbo coming out later this year that will fit much better alongside the GTR.

The GTR is simply about going as fast as possible. It has immense power, grip, traction and weight.

The GT3 isn't about going as fast as possible. It's about the sensations... the way the car reacts your your inputs, the noise, the throttle response, the unique feel of a rear engined car... and doing all of this whilst travelling very quickly.

Of course there's more technollogy in the car now. That's just progress. If you want no real technollogy, go buy a 996 GT3RS... pure analoge car. Even the last, and widely recognised 'greatest' 911 to date, the GT3RS 4.0, has electronics... didn't make it a rubbish drivers car.

Porsche have pretty much never released a RS or GT3 model that hasn't been regarded as the best in it's class drivers car on release (964RS wasn't that well regarded at launch for it's ride, but has become an icon in recent years). I don't think they are suddenly going to build a GTR clone

This is going to be an epic drivers car, but as always with a new model, it will take people a while to catch up... some people still haven't accepted water cooled engines ffs

 

[Alex.]

About time we had another GT1 Strassenversion eh Porsche?

 

[CodeRedR51]

I see only two advantages for the manual on track. One, the ability to custom-tune your launch. Something you don't need when you have PASM and launch control. And two, the ability to tune the cornering balance by playing with the clutch. That last one won't really make the car faster on the racetrack, though, given the typically incredible grip of a GT3, and whatever you gain there will be lost in every shift you need to make on track.

Except for launches, many racecars don't utilize a clutch. And when possible, they don't use a gearstick.

I understand if you're actually racing the damn thing, but if I was to purchase one for track days, etc I would want to row my own boat. Technology like this is why I prefer old cars more and more over anything that's been shown in the last few years. I guess the good news is that most cars that come with said "flappy paddle" transmissions have supercar-like prices and wouldn't be on my list of purchases if I had that kind of money anyway.

 

[Joey D]

I guess the good news is that most cars that come with said "flappy paddle" transmissions have supercar-like prices and wouldn't be on my list of purchases if I had that kind of money anyway.

And that's exactly why you won't see any supercar/sports car makers offering manual transmissions in the future. The vast majority of people who want a manual in these cars can't afford them to begin with, and those who are actually buying them are demanding double-clutches. Car makers are going to produce whatever their buyers want and whatever they can make the most amount of money on. I seem to recall that's why Ferrari has stopped putting manual transmissions in their cars.

 

[GranTurismo916]

911 GT3 R.

Porsche announced a series of upgrades for the 911 GT3 R that will be used during the 2013 racing season. The model receives an improved aerodynamic kit, upgraded suspension and an array of updated electronic driver assistance systems.

The aerodynamic kit includes new front bumper panels, fenders, sill covers, rear panel and a new rear diffuser. The 2013 GT3 R also received an enlarged and repositioned rear wing. The wheelbase grows by 10 millimeters (0.39 inches), and both front and rear axles are increased by 50 millimeters (1.96 inches). The model will be offered with new wheels, now sized 12 inches wide, instead of 10.9 inches.

Under the hood, the model retains the usual 4-liter, six-cylinder boxer engine that delivers a total of 500 horsepower and is mated to a six-speed sequential dog-type gearbox with pneumatic shift system and operated via shift paddles on the steering wheel.

Customers interested can upgrade their older model to the 2013-spec for a price of €45,500 - around $59,000 at the current exchange rates.

 

[Omnis]

Isn't that the old car?

 

[poolhaas]

It is, the only photos I found of the new model are spyshots of it testing, some time ago.

I like the look of the new GT3 personally. Some more shots from germancarscene.com

 

[Slash]

Loving the interior but I feel the passenger side dash needs a bit of work.

 

[TilDawn]

Didn't think they could surpass the previous GT3 in terms of looks but they did.

 

[niky]

Still puzzled why they didn't just put the 4.0 in the road-going car. It was in the last of the 997 GT3s...

-

Regarding PDK versus manual:

This is approaching it from Porsche's point of view. With the GT3, they're taking a very "GTR-ish" approach. Who cares what people say. Whatever makes it faster, that's what we put in. Hence PASM. Hence four-wheel steering. Hence the PDK.

Again, if it were just a track car, I see no problems with it being PDK only. But I agree that maybe Porsche has missed out on why the GT3 proves alluring for GT3 buyers... involvement. They want a more visceral experience. On the racetrack, the PDK works, on the road, I'd rather have a manual in a good car. And a simple mechanical LSD. And a hydraulic steering rack.

But no... Porsche had to go the whole hog on technology. Things which seemed like they were bound for the Turbo or GT2 wound up on the GT3 for no obvious reason.

Madness.

 

[Omnis]

Hopefully they release a GT3KS before the Rennsport comes out. KS for Kriegerschroff. Mechanical everything.

 

[Aquarelle]

Astonishing looks, just have to disable the rear wheel steering and give it a manual

 

[Stotty]

So much BS is being talked around the 991GT3.

To hear people moaning about PDK/electric steering/rear wheel steering on here and other sites when 1) they haven’t driven the car yet, 2) 99.9% won’t have driven any of the previous generations GT3’s, and 3) the majority won’t even have driven any 911 variant just makes me PMSL.

Seems like there’s some sort of badge of honour in claiming you need a stripped down car – when most people couldn’t get to 50% of the cars capabilities anyway.

If anyone doubts Porsche’s continued commitment to making the 991 GT3 one of the great DRIVERS cars of all time watch this video interview with Andreas Preuninger…

Still puzzled why they didn't just put the 4.0 in the road-going car. It was in the last of the 997 GT3s...

The Metzger has been an amazing unit, but it has reached the end of its life... the production runs are too small now the Turbo is running the new DI unit that Porsche have said it just doesn’t make sense to use it in road cars anymore.

The new 3.8 Direct Injection unit is claimed to be better in almost every area – power, torque, emissions, economy, reliability & future tunability. It makes close to 500bhp (Porsche have admitted the 469 quoted is conservative and back chat is the engine actually makes 493), and I’d put good money on the RS version having a good chunk more – maybe a capacity increase to 4.0 with c.550bhp.

As I understand it, the GT race cars will move to the DI unit next year as they aren’t really competitive with the Metzger engine anymore against the 8 cyl stuff from Ferrari etc.

Porsche had to go the whole hog on technology. Things which seemed like they were bound for the Turbo or GT2 wound up on the GT3 for no obvious reason.

That’s the sort of general BS that far less well informed people than you spout, Niky. I really expected a more considered approach as you normally seem to know what’s going on in the car world

The GT3 has 4WS, that’s it... PDK is hardly big news given most manufacturers have been putting it on their faster cars for some years now. If you want to see what Porsche can really do with technology, wait for the new Turbo – that will have the entire tech cupboard thrown at the car, such a torque vectoring and active differentials, active suspension etc.

Astonishing looks, just have to disable the rear wheel steering and give it a manual

Why would you want to disable the rear steering?

It’s said to give an effective 100mm change in wheelbase from full opposite direction (at slower speeds) to full same direction (at higher speeds). It will help further reduce low speed understeer AND reduce high speed instability.

This is not fork lift truck rear wheel steering… the full range of movement is only 1.5*. So it’s just like having the benefits of a track based rear toe set on the road, without any of the downsides.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Anyone else bothered by the headlights on the 991? I feel like they are about 10% too big. Also, the portion of the car ahead of the front pillars is a little bit too short. I know this is all for performance sake, but the shape just isn't quite right. I think the 997 is a prettier car. I do love the rear of the 991, it is properly titillating.

 

[niky]

The Metzger has been an amazing unit, but it has reached the end of its life... the production runs are too small now the Turbo is running the new DI unit that Porsche have said it just doesn’t make sense to use it in road cars anymore.

Actually, I figured as much. On one hand, it's a shame, on the other hand, it's nice that Porsche is investing in a new unit. I've heard some people express doubts about the new engine, but then, that's the same kind of reaction most people have when a relatively well-liked motor is retired.

That’s the sort of general BS that far less well informed people than you spout, Niky. I really expected a more considered approach as you normally seem to know what’s going on in the car world

The GT3 has 4WS, that’s it... PDK is hardly big news given most manufacturers have been putting it on their faster cars for some years now. If you want to see what Porsche can really do with technology, wait for the new Turbo – that will have the entire tech cupboard thrown at the car, such a torque vectoring and active differentials, active suspension etc.

I'm actually looking forward to a new GT2 with all this stuff added to it. Should be a monster.

The reaction is simply because, despite understanding what direction Porsche was going for when they announced the PDK, I feel that perhaps this is something that the target market might not want. That is if you consider the target market for the GT3 as fundamentally different from that for the Turbo or GT2.

But then, that's simply an opinion. I agree that the GT3 is a great piece of kit, and it'll definitely sell, whatever wags like us think of it.

 

[Stotty]

The reaction is simply because, despite understanding what direction Porsche was going for when they announced the PDK, I feel that perhaps this is something that the target market might not want. That is if you consider the target market for the GT3 as fundamentally different from that for the Turbo or GT2.

There are a lot of people on Rennlist who currently own GT3’s and RS’s who are very unhappy with the move to PDK.

But like everyone else, they need to wait and see what the car’s actually like to drive before ‘going off on one’… it’s the same sort of reaction Porsche got when they moved from air cooled to water cooled engines back in the late 90’s. And some of those luddites are still saying they’ll never buy a water cooled Porsche… the ‘Earth is flat brigade’

At the end of the day, I’m not sure what people expect Porsche to do? The 997 GT3/RS/4.0 were wonderous things in so many ways, but how do you make a better car in the same mould as the GT3RS 4.0? That car was developed to the nth degree. They can’t just keep producing incrementally better cars, they need to significantly move the game on at some stage as Ferrari did when they launched the 458.

Now it’s time to move the GT3’s abilities onwards and upwards, and some technology, executed and implemented in the right way, will help enable that. The challenge for Andreas and his team is to still retain the essence of what the GT3 stands for – the ‘feel’, the emotional connection. Given how well he understands the GT3 sub-Brand, what’s made it successful, and most of all, Porsche’s unmatched track record in producing the best drivers cars generation after generation, I think people just need to have some trust.

Personally, I think a lot of people will have egg on their faces in the near future.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

The earth is flat, and I'll have my air-cooled, 5 speed manual 911 please.

 

[Stotty]

The earth is flat, and I'll have my air-cooled, 5 speed manual 911 please.

There's a lot of looking back through rose tinted glasses when it comes to old Porsche's... Most of them aren't that nice to drive - the very early ones are slow, and try to kill you if you lift off, the 80's one's just feel a bit dead and heavy (no power steering + wide tyres). It's not until the later 964's and 993's that aircooled cars were nice to drive... and even then, most people admit the base 996 is a nicer car than the base 993 from a driving perspective.

I'll have a Singer please... aircooled looks with modern mechanicals.

 

[GranTurismo916]

I posted the old one?

 

[sumbrownkid]

Meh, if you got the money, and love the pure manual transmission experience, then you can always get an aftermarket unit for this car.

 

[Stotty]

Meh, if you got the money, and love the pure manual transmission experience, then you can always get an aftermarket unit for this car.

With enough money you can likely do anything, but I doubt it would make sense to try it.

You could buy a brand new 7 speed manual box from a regular 991, but I guessing it would cost a minimum £7k, then you have to make it work in the GT3... which means buying all the linkages, plus you'd need to buy a new centre console and shifter... and then somehow you have to make it work with all the electronics.

It would make more sense to buy a 997 GT3RS 4.0 (which are currently fetching c.£190k), as you'd then have a car that's likely to appreciate in value over the long term.

 

[Luminis]

It would make more sense to buy a 997 GT3RS 4.0 (which are currently fetching c.£190k), as you'd then have a car that's likely to appreciate in value over the long term.

Well, if people want the 4.0 and/or a manual in the new car - if they essentially want the old car because they don't want things to change - why bother with the new one at all?

So, yeah, I fully agree with Stotty 👍