Porsche 911 GT3 RS '4.0'

[homeforsummer]

Famine will tell you cars like the Radical are useable, doesn't his brother own one or something as a daily?

Yep, an Atom, which to be fair is much more useable day to day than a Radical. It has suspension travel and ground clearance, for one thing. Also has a proper car engine rather than a bike engine.

Also, "useable" is relative. On a glorious summer's day and on a smooth road I've no doubt a Radical would be brilliant. Going through a typical British town centre at rush hour when it's lashing down I think you'd struggle to call it useable, whereas a GT3 RS would be easily happy enough doing that sort of thing. It'd be a waste to only commute in it, but you'd be a lot happier doing so.

 

[Paulie]

Oh yeah I agree, I was just saying, it's do-able. I'd much rather own a tin-top unless Elfin made a V6 roadster with an advanced chassis.

 

[homeforsummer]

Depends how hardcore something is I guess. My old MX5 was a soft-top you could quite happily use every day, but then I suppose it had a roof in the first place! Some of the more track-specialised stuff doesn't which sort of limits you.

On that note, I'm glad Porsche have never seen fit to make a convertible GT3, unlike they've done with the turbo. It shows a dedication to engineering that something like the M-Division is slowly frittering away with convertibles and off-roaders...

 

[Stotty]

And unlike Ferrari did with the 430 Scuderia.

The day Porsche build a GT3 soft top, or stick a GT3 badge on a Cayenne is the day is lose belief in the brand.

 

[homeforsummer]

And unlike Ferrari did with the 430 Scuderia.

I'd forgotten about that one. Just another reason I prefer the 360CS over the 430...

The day Porsche build a GT3 soft top, or stick a GT3 badge on a Cayenne is the day is lose belief in the brand.

I can't see that happening, thankfully. Mostly because the GT3 is so closely linked with motorsport. And I think the most we'll ever see from Cayennes are models like the Transsyberia, which was acceptable enough for me. Not the most tasteful vehicle but at least it existed for a reason.

 

[Stotty]

Nice interview by Chris Harris with the man in charge of the GT series...

 

[Daverytimes]

Nice interview by Chris Harris with the man in charge of the GT series...

That really is a great car but i think is a little too expensive for what its trying to accomplish. $185,000, seriously. competitions like the 2012 Nissan GTR does what the 911 GT3 RS 4.0 does for half the price ($89,000) and even does somethings better. I think that price is just because of name brand.






(My Opinion)

 

[Clark]

This car's competition is NOT the GT-R. The Turbo is the closest thing to the GT-R, and it is worth more because of things like the interior and the pedigree of the car.

This car's compeition is things like the 430 Scud (or moreso the 458 lightweight varient that will no doubt be here in a year or so). What it's trying to accomplish is to be the greatest driver's car ever, the GT-R has tried and succeded to an extent to be the best value and fastest, most accessable performance car ever.

The bottom line is, you don't judge a car just by it's price to performance ratio. A racing car is mainly a bout pure speed. A road car isn't, what's the point of having a car that can lap the 'Ring in under 7:30 if it isn't an involving drive.

 

[McLaren]

You have to remember that it's also a limited edition, so the price is going to shoot up on that note alone. The basic GT3 RS was $132,800.

As for the GT-R, well, that's to be determined against this car, as the Nurburgring is not the end all discussion for performance comparison. There's also the fact that yes, you do pay more for the name. You also happen to get quite a bit more when paying that much money, things that you have to experience as an owner to get a complete idea of what you're buying into that you won't really get with a GT-R or Z06. That's why when people bring up the cost of a GT-R vs. supercars, they rarely take into account things such as the assembly line, the materials, the development, the client-factory relations, etc., things you just have to see first hand to fully understand.

Edit* Beat to the punch.

 

[Daverytimes]

This car's competition is NOT the GT-R. The Turbo is the closest thing to the GT-R, and it is worth more because of things like the interior and the pedigree of the car.

This car's compeition is things like the 430 Scud (or moreso the 458 lightweight varient that will no doubt be here in a year or so). What it's trying to accomplish is to be the greatest driver's car ever, the GT-R has tried and succeded to an extent to be the best value and fastest, most accessable performance car ever.

The bottom line is, you don't judge a car just by it's price to performance ratio. A racing car is mainly a bout pure speed. A road car isn't, what's the point of having a car that can lap the 'Ring in under 7:30 if it isn't an involving drive.

Well you are right, but not everyone is out to tame a beast. Some people like to enjoy a car that is rather composed and some like to fight against their cars. But like i said most of that price is because of brand name and like Mclaren said its limited production run. in terms of price to performance its not worth it but since this is a Porsche people are still going to buy it.




DAVE

 

[freedomweasel]

If you get a car around the Ring that fast, you're going to be involved in the drive.

 

[Luminis]

Well you are right, but not everyone is out to tame a beast. Some people like to enjoy a car that is rather composed and some like to fight against their cars.

Porsche aren't cars that you have to really 'fight' against, though. They haven't been for quite a while. In fact, most reviews I've read about the modern Porsche are stating that the cars are brilliant to drive.

But like i said most of that price is because of brand name and like Mclaren said its limited production run. in terms of price to performance its not worth it but since this is a Porsche people are still going to buy it.

DAVE

Yeah, it doesn't really matter. Because people aren't going to buy it, they already did.

 

[Clark]

If you get a car around the Ring that fast, you're going to be involved in the drive.

From what I've read about the GT-R, that's not really in the same league for feel as a GT3 or similair.

 

[McLaren]

I've read the same. When I was out in Vegas during an exotic event, the GT-R was actually regarded by as the "cheater" car b/c it pretty much corrected itself & any minor mistakes people were making with it on the course. Meanwhile, a 997 Carrera S was noted as possibly being one of the funnest cars to drive by the instructors.

 

[Clark]

Alot of cars can be quick but not be invloving, just take some racecars where huge slick tyres can ruin all fun in the handling.

 

[Radracing]

I've read the same. When I was out in Vegas during an exotic event, the GT-R was actually regarded by as the "cheater" car b/c it pretty much corrected itself & any minor mistakes people were making with it on the course. Meanwhile, a 997 Carrera S was noted as possibly being one of the funnest cars to drive by the instructors.

Isn't that the whole point of picking a good sports car? Getting one that can handle well at the limit. I mean don't we buy this cars for thier handling? Isn't that what all the technology, time and engineering is spent and the reason why car manufacturers charge so much money for? Well I think Nissan just gave it to us at a cut rate price. So it is a little bit purist to call it a cheat car. Even in F1 they spend millions just to make the car go fast and easy to handle. But then again if it came to looks I wouldn't buy a GT-R. So call me a snob too. haha!

With regards to fun to drive factor well you can trash a Miata around or even a go-kart and have as much fun to drive as a Porsche. It's just the difference of feeling like, " Oh yeah! Look at me I'm in a Porsche feeling" which not everybody can afford to own or drive.

 

[Stotty]

As I've said before in other threads, outright speed is only really relevent to internet drivers... real reowners buy cars for many more reasons that 'the fastest car I can get for my budget'.

There are so few opportunities to use even a small percentage of even a reasonably fast cars potential on the public roads. Modern cars have such incredibly high grip levels that you have to be waaaay over the speed limit to get anywhere near their limits.

So cars need to reward with more than just pure speed.

The reason Porsche are so highly regarded is because they involve the driver on a much deeper level than almost anything else on sale today... it's the reason the GT3RS (3.8) beat the 458 and GTR (amongst others) in both Autocar and EVO's car of the year features. And it's why the GT3RS is regarded as a better drivers car than the GT2RS.

The GTR may have more grip than a GT3RS and so be able to corner faster on certain tracks, but as I said in another thread recently... grip does not equal handling!

 

[Daverytimes]

As I've said before in other threads, outright speed is only really relevent to internet drivers... real reowners buy cars for many more reasons that 'the fastest car I can get for my budget'.

There are so few opportunities to use even a small percentage of even a reasonably fast cars potential on the public roads. Modern cars have such incredibly high grip levels that you have to be waaaay over the speed limit to get anywhere near their limits.

So cars need to reward with more than just pure speed.

The reason Porsche are so highly regarded is because they involve the driver on a much deeper level than almost anything else on sale today... it's the reason the GT3RS (3.8) beat the 458 and GTR (amongst others) in both Autocar and EVO's car of the year features. And it's why the GT3RS is regarded as a better drivers car than the GT2RS.

The GTR may have more grip than a GT3RS and so be able to corner faster on certain tracks, but as I said in another thread recently... grip does not equal handling!

I don't know how to say this but let see. If you want to corner faster Grip is everything, a composed car with a lot of grip is considered a very good handling car. The GTR is a very good handling car. Now when you say that Grip does not equal Handling, maybe you are referring to the "FUN" way that porches handle by "FUN" i mean not too grippy (AKA GTR) and not too loose (Zr1). This next statement is aimed at people who say that cars like GTR has no soul. What does a car having a soul mean? "We" give cars soul, our personal preference are what we consider "SOUL". I love cars that grip therefore to me a car that grips as it should has soul. Some love cars that are overpowering, cars that are on the edge of snapping, to them those cars have soul. Others like cars that have a great balance between the two, to these people those types of cars have soul. To say a car has not soul because its not "FUN" to drive is a very stupid assessment. Every car has goals in which its aimed at accomplishment and if that car accomplished that goal it has "SOUL".



(When i said "FUN" its in the most vague way, simply put anything can be considerd "FUN", its all personal taste)



DAVE

 

[McLaren]

Isn't that the whole point of picking a good sports car? Getting one that can handle well at the limit. I mean don't we buy this cars for thier handling? Isn't that what all the technology, time and engineering is spent and the reason why car manufacturers charge so much money for? Well I think Nissan just gave it to us at a cut rate price. So it is a little bit purist to call it a cheat car. Even in F1 they spend millions just to make the car go fast and easy to handle. But then again if it came to looks I wouldn't buy a GT-R. So call me a snob too. haha!

Just because it handles well doesn't mean feels good to drive. I've driven a GT-R & I've driven a Superleggera back-to-back. There's no doubt that GT-R can go into the corners just as quickly without too much of my input b/c it starts to make all the little calculations to correct my speed.

But I'd take Lambo. 10 out of 10 times solely because it was a much more fun car to drive. Every input was down to me & my only aid was AWD keeping the car in check. It was much more rewarding for me b/c every lap, I saw where I could improve upon & could see where my limit was, as well as where the car's was. The GT-R blurs that line because when you feel you're at your limit with it, it can actually go a lot faster. The issue though is how much, & there it becomes hard to tell because it doesn't give you much indication of when it'll start to be on the edge. At that point, you best be a damn good driver to reel it back in, so during my laps with it, I never really pushed it further than I was comfortable with. The Gallardo kept me in check; I saw what it could do at its peak & I knew I wasn't quite the sort of driver who could take it there.

With regards to fun to drive factor well you can trash a Miata around or even a go-kart and have as much fun to drive as a Porsche. It's just the difference of feeling like, " Oh yeah! Look at me I'm in a Porsche feeling" which not everybody can afford to own or drive.

They can both be equally fun cars. Doesn't mean you're going to get the same experience from them. The Porsche is going to have much more power, refined suspension & brakes, and allow you to go even further than the Miata can.

It has nothing to do with, "I bought this over the Miata so I can say I've got a Porsche".

 

[homeforsummer]

Porsche aren't cars that you have to really 'fight' against, though. They haven't been for quite a while. In fact, most reviews I've read about the modern Porsche are stating that the cars are brilliant to drive.

Yes and no. Porsches are no longer the tail-happy beasties they once were but in so far as I've read they still bite if you don't know how to handle them. Porsche has done a great job but you still can't break the laws of physics and there's still a big lump of engine behind the rear axle! At higher speeds you'd still have to be careful.

That doesn't mean they aren't awesome to drive, but there's still a lot more to do than in many other performance cars.

Not least changing gear the old-fashioned way! Not many cars of equivalent performance let you do that any more...

 

[NLxAROSA]

The Porsche is going to have much more power, refined suspension & brakes, and allow you to go even further than the Miata can.

And it's the refinement/finesse that sets it apart.

Here's another example: I have owned a Nissan 350z, which is considered to be a Porsche Cayman competitor (by lots of sites and magazines anyway ), and I can tell from experience that the 350z lacked the refinement of the Cayman (which I have also driven, just not as extensively as the 350z). The 350z also suffered from bad ergonomics, being overweight, and a shoddy interior. Still loved it though, because it's a great car for the price, but it's just not in the same league as the Porsche and it's easy to see why a Cayman costs 20,000 Euros extra over here.

 

[freedomweasel]

I don't know how to say this but let see. If you want to corner faster Grip is everything, a composed car with a lot of grip is considered a very good handling car. The GTR is a very good handling car. Now when you say that Grip does not equal Handling, maybe you are referring to the "FUN" way that porches handle by "FUN" i mean not too grippy (AKA GTR) and not too loose (Zr1). This next statement is aimed at people who say that cars like GTR has no soul. What does a car having a soul mean? "We" give cars soul, our personal preference are what we consider "SOUL". I love cars that grip therefore to me a car that grips as it should has soul. Some love cars that are overpowering, cars that are on the edge of snapping, to them those cars have soul. Others like cars that have a great balance between the two, to these people those types of cars have soul. To say a car has not soul because its not "FUN" to drive is a very stupid assessment. Every car has goals in which its aimed at accomplishment and if that car accomplished that goal it has "SOUL".



(When i said "FUN" its in the most vague way, simply put anything can be considerd "FUN", its all personal taste)



DAVE

Grip is only part of handling, which is what I assume Stotty meant. As I quoted in another thread:

"Handling is […] the ability of the machine to feed information back to our receiving apparatus so that we can act minutely on it. The higher the fidelity of the feedback, the more precisely we can use it." (as much as I hate to quote Top Gear) - James May

A Miata is widely noted as one of the best handling cars you can buy yet if you send it around a skidpad a GTR will certainly out-grip it. As a general rule AWD cars don't have handling on par with RWD. That doesn't mean they're slower, or have less grip though, generally the opposite.

 

[Stotty]

Actually, I see handling as completely separate to outright grip.

Over the 25 years I've been driving cars have changed massively.

The 1st car I ever owned had 185/60/13's, and these were considered as being very low profile and super high grip tyres at the time. My family road car today (08 Mondeo) has 235/40/18's with 25 years of compound improvements... it probably generates far more lateral grip than the vast majority of sports cars from 25 years ago... doesn't mean it handles better!

Grip does come in to handling in one way though... the balance of grip front to rear is massively important in how a car handles. A good front/rear grip balance is an essential part of good handling... but outright grip is irrelevent.

... a composed car with a lot of grip is considered a very good handling car. DAVE

Considered by who exactly?

An Audi RS5 was quicker round Bedford than an M3 (same driver, same day), and the EVO article commented on how much more grip the Audi had on corner exits... but the Audi was roundly criticised for having poor handling, whilst the M3 was praised for it's brilliant handling.

 

[Radracing]

It has nothing to do with, "I bought this over the Miata so I can say I've got a Porsche".

You missed my point. I'm saying you can have as much fun driving a car that handles well even if its just a Go-Kart, Miata, an old Bugatti Race car, an exotic Maclaren, or a GT3 RS 4.0. But of course each one will have a different personality when it comes to handling but the fun factor is still going to be there. In my opinion the feeling of which one feels a lot more fun to trash around in would be how rare it is for the person getting the oppurtunity to actually drive a particular car. So the more exclusive the car the more excited one would be to drive it.

 

[Daverytimes]

Grip is only part of handling, which is what I assume Stotty meant. As I quoted in another thread:

"Handling is […] the ability of the machine to feed information back to our receiving apparatus so that we can act minutely on it. The higher the fidelity of the feedback, the more precisely we can use it." (as much as I hate to quote Top Gear) - James May

A Miata is widely noted as one of the best handling cars you can buy yet if you send it around a skidpad a GTR will certainly out-grip it. As a general rule AWD cars don't have handling on par with RWD. That doesn't mean they're slower, or have less grip though, generally the opposite.

Oh absolutely, i should have worded my comment correctly. Grip plays the most important role in handling but it's obviously is not the only aspect of handling. But as i said in my comment Grip is key when cornering fast (Although it had nothing to do with the conversation, lol) I mistook what he said to mean that Grip added nothing to handling.



(Am still waiting for those who insist that cars like GTR has no soul to give me a detailed reason why. On the GTR thread Ofcourse)

 

[Jim Prower]

Uh...

Let's not beat a dead horse with that one.

 

[Daverytimes]

Uh...

Let's not beat a dead horse with that one.

Am guessing thats aimed at me.

 

[Blackbird.]

I loved how Nissan was voiding warranties on GT-R owners who used the launch control system that was manufactured by Nissan.

 

[Jim Prower]

I loved how Nissan was voiding warranties on GT-R owners who used the launch control system that was manufactured by Nissan.

👎

Uh...

Let's not beat a dead horse with that one.

 

[Leonidae@MFT]