Power Loss and Engine Wear - A Detailed Study

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In spite of all of this data, I've got no plans to change my driving habits, oil change frequency, nor choice and frequency of driving any particular car. But it's good to know.

I wouldn't expect my work to affect anyones choices in normal driving. It appears that only the most extreme drivers are likely to benefit; 300mph club / wearing cars out for maximum A-spec points / 48 hours of Le Mans.

Did you know that you can measure even 0.001% power loss in a 15 HP car by looking at the power to weight ratio?
Only problem is that GT4 internally uses the PS unit, so you have to convert the power/weight ratio results:

Again you have given me something new to think about - I hadn't even considered that.

After running 3000 miles in a 339bhp stage 1 turbo Subaru Impreza Spec C, taking the power readings in the normal way, and also calculating them as you suggested I am satisfied that these calculated figures will be accurate to 1 or 2 decimal places depending on the cars power, but I wouldn't trust the third decimal place as the cars weights are rounded to the nearest kilogram.

For now I will stick to my method, but should I decide to test a lesser car than the Spec C then I will likely resort to calculating the power in this way - how else could you tell if a horseless carriage like the 'benz patent motor wagen' had lost any of its single 1bhp?
 
Outstanding news! Found out just a second ago that your oil doesn't degrade at all if you're driving just under 45 km/h (about 28mph?)
It doesn't matter what gear you're in if any nor if you keep it banging at rev limiter but not going over that speed limit.
I'm not 100% sure if this is the limit for all cars but I believe it is.
Next I'm going to find out what's the speed limit it starts to degrade faster or something :D
 
If you're wondering how I'm doing it, I'm observing the oil condition counters at 01C310C8-01C310CF (PAL) while playing the game

.. sorry for double post, looks like I didn't press the edit button by mistake

Edit:
Looks like that if you've changed the oil at the GT shop the second counter starts counting when you're going over 3 km/h
 
Looks like that if you've changed the oil at the GT shop the second counter starts counting when you're going over 3 km/h

So my motor carriage is safe from the effects of dirty oil? Phew, I thought it was really going to be a real dog to drive once I got it past 5000 kilometres.
 
Outstanding news! Found out just a second ago that your oil doesn't degrade at all if you're driving just under 45 km/h (about 28mph?)
It doesn't matter what gear you're in if any nor if you keep it banging at rev limiter but not going over that speed limit.
I'm not 100% sure if this is the limit for all cars but I believe it is.
Next I'm going to find out what's the speed limit it starts to degrade faster or something :D

Outstanding? Interesting maybe, but almost useless as there are no races to be won at under 28mph.

If you're wondering how I'm doing it, I'm observing the oil condition counters at 01C310C8-01C310CF (PAL) while playing the game

Way over my head...

Edit:
Looks like that if you've changed the oil at the GT shop the second counter starts counting when you're going over 3 km/h

2nd counter? How many counters are there? I'm suspecting six. One for distance travelled and another for power lost for each of the three types of power loss I identified. Probably completely wrong though.

The second counter sounds like it is measuring distance travelled since the oil change, and when it reaches whatever represents 200km it will trigger something else to show the initial power drop (pink spike).


Now for my something interesting. My garage is now full of cars with nicely rounded mileages, and when switching between mph and kmh I noticed that;
15,000 miles = 24,000 km and,
24,000 miles = 38,400 km exactly.

So PD are using 1 mile = 1.6 km and/or 1 km = 0.625 miles for their conversion factors.

So my motor carriage is safe from the effects of dirty oil? Phew, I thought it was really going to be a real dog to drive once I got it past 5000 kilometres.

Are the motor carriages realy that slow? I thought they were capable of a neck snapping 12mph (18kmh) in stock form.:crazy:
I wouldn't be surprised if the Daimler dropped from 1.09bhp to 0.98bhp, and the Benz from 0.75bhp to 0.68bhp after 9000 miles, but I don't want to spend 900 hours finding out.


After a delay due to illness the Data for Part 3 has now been collected and I just have to write it up, then parts 4 & 5 will hopefully also be fully driven by the end of this week. After that I am looking forward to doing a bit of driving myself again - Bob has been hogging the wheel almost completely so far this year!
 
Looks like my explanation was too confusing :)
By saying that the oil doesn't degrade under 28mph basically means the oil degrade rate is defined only by the speed you're driving at.
I don't know what to do with that information though.. Driving speeds won't help with estimating when you need to change your oil, because there are no distinctive steps between slow wear and fast wear :(

There are only two counters. The first one just runs from start to end of the range, and only the second counter is used when you change your oil, overriding the first one and giving you some extra HP.
You could think it like the first counter is the wear of the engine and the second one is just the oil. That way the game can keep track of it in the way it does.

The reason why power loss isn't constant is because the game just interprets the values differently when going past a given point.
Also it seems that, like you said, it doesn't matter how fast you drive after you've changed your oil. The light lits always at certain distance, after you've first driven enough to wear the engine down to the ~4000 mile point.

.. I think, I'm not sure of any of this, but this is how it seems to be working internally
 
PART 3. THE EFFECTS OF INCREASED POWER

Another new car was required. As the Subaru Impreza Spec C had been mentioned earlier in this thread, and it had a range of tuning options available to it, this was chosen. A new car was bought and a few test runs made to find the 300 mile marker. This was found to be at 1.25 mile run-up + 46 laps + 600 metres = 300 miles. The car was noted to top out at 7500rpm (171mph) with an 8000rpm red line and 8500rpm rev limiter. This allowed a bit of breathing space for tuned versions to also run without hitting the rev limiter.

INITIAL TEST

TEST 1. New (Unmodified) Car.
(Almost the same as Part 1, Test 1).
After resetting the console to return the car to 0 miles I returned to the test track. I selected Free run, and again B-spec Bob was given the keys and told to push hard. I left him to run for exactly 300 miles as calculated. At the end of the run I returned to the car view at the garage to check the odometer before selecting change car as a quick way to save progress. This took me back to the garage list screen where I noted the power figure and entered the data into excel. Bob was then sent out again for the next 300 miles.

Repeat thirty times until the odometer reads 9,000 miles. At this point the power appeared to have levelled off, so I sent Bob out on an extended run of 462 laps (approximately 3000 miles) before taking the final power reading. The car was then returned to the track overnight to ensure no additional power was lost. A graph of the results (blue line) was plotted.

SUBSEQUENT TESTS

2. New Car Modified With Stage 1 Turbo.
Another new Subaru Impreza Spec C was bought, and this time fitted with a Stage 1 Turbo upgrade from the manufacturers tuning shop. No other modifications were carried out. The car was then sent around the Test Track for thirty sessions of 300 miles and a final session of 3000 miles. Power data was collected and a graph drawn (pale green line).

3. New Car Modified With Stage 2 Turbo.
Another new Subaru Impreza Spec C was bought, and this time fitted with a Stage 2 Turbo upgrade from the manufacturers tuning shop. No other modifications were carried out. The car was then sent around the Test Track for thirty sessions of 300 miles and a final session of 3000 miles. Power data was collected and a graph drawn (pale yellow line).

4. New Car Modified With Stage 3 Turbo.
Another new Subaru Impreza Spec C was bought, and this time fitted with a Stage 3 Turbo upgrade from the manufacturers tuning shop. No other modifications were carried out. The car was then sent around the Test Track for thirty sessions of 300 miles and a final session of 3000 miles. Power data was collected and a graph drawn (tan line).

5. New Car Modified With Stage 5 Turbo.
Another new Subaru Impreza Spec C was bought, and this time fitted with a Stage 5 Turbo upgrade from the Tuner Village. No other modifications were carried out. The car was then sent around the Test Track for thirty sessions of 300 miles and a final session of 3000 miles. Power data was collected and a graph drawn (light red line).

RESULTS

A table containing 160 data points was collected but is not presented. A graph was plotted, and this is shown below. The data table can be supplied if requested.

Spec C - Tuning.gif

ANALYSIS & CONCLUSIONS

Five tests were run using the same model of car, but with varying power levels due to the varying sizes of Turbo. The five plotted lines, although different due to the power levels are essentially the same shape. All five cars began to lose power between 600 and 900 miles, with the steep drop starting around 3300 miles and lasting for around 600 miles. The minimum power level was noted to be reached at around 7800 miles for all cars.

There is a small variation in the position of the steep drop due to dirty oil. The slower (less powerful) cars start to lose power a little before 3300 miles, and the faster (more powerful) ones end a little later that 3900 miles. In this case it appears that the greater the difference from stock power, the later the drop occurs. This contradicts my earlier suspicion, that "the oil is dirtied quicker in cars the more they are altered from factory spec". Instead it appears that Speed Drifter may be correct in his suggestion that "the reason why the VW Nardo in your recent test lost power so quickly when ran at 7000 rpms is, that it's peak power output is at 7000 rpms".

It should be noted the the Subaru Impreza Spec C has a very wide powerband. The peak power is at 6400rpm, but there is barely any change in power between 4500rpm and 7500rpm. It should also be noted that despite the 20% increase in power the fastest car could only achieve an extra 11mph, topping out at 182mph (8000rpm). The slowest (stock) car was running closest to peak power, so the oil became dirty earliest. However, as all the cars were running so close to peak power there is very little difference in the shapes of the graphs.

Power loss due to engine wear (the shallow slope) does not appear to be affected in the same way. The most powerful cars appeared to begin losing power earlier - before 900 miles while the less powerful ones did not seem to lose any power until after 900 miles. The modified cars all appear to reach minimum power at 7800 miles, whereas the stock one does not reach minimum until 8100 miles. This could be due to power level, rpm, or something else entirely. I suspect however that it may be due to the lower powered cars showing less detail. The best way to test this would be to calculate the power figures from the PWR rather than measure them directly, again suggested by Speed Drifter.

As with the Nissan R390 Race Car and VW Nardo Concept, minimum power can be calculated as initial power * 0.95 * 0.95 = a 9.75% loss.
 
Thank you for doing these detailed tests! :)
I got inspired so much by them that I'll be doing one or two tests of my own using the same method, so I can compare my test results to your results.
I'm mainly interested in extreme cases, so I'll be doing one test where the car's constantly running at around 28mph, and another at 500mph (at least).
 
Actually, I have something more for you to think about.. I and Greycap have occasionally been paying attention to the weight of the cars in GT4, and IMO, a good example would be Ford Focus RS, 1050kg in the game. But I checked multiple reviews, and most of them claimed 1175kg as the weight.. so, in some cases, I believe that PD used dry weights instead of the actual weight with fluids. In addition, the weight reduction program is strictly based on a formula. I don't recall numbers, but if Greycap peeks here, I'm sure he'll gladly share them.
 
PART 4. FRESH OIL: A CLOSER LOOK

After just one test involving a car with oil change a power spike had been observed. It was decided that a closer look was necessary to determine the position and rate of power loss of this initial spike. As the entire spike was observed to be within the first 300 miles a shorter run was needed, and my calculations suggested that 1.25 mile run up + 9 laps + 650 metres = 60 miles. Also 1.25 mile run up + 12 laps + 1600 metres = 80 miles.

INITIAL TEST

TEST 1a. New Nissan R390 + Oil Change

A new Nissan R390 Race Car was purchased and the oil changed. The power (840BHP) was noted, then the car was handed to Bob who ran 60 miles at the test track. The power was again noted and Bob sent out for another 60 miles. This was repeated until 300 miles had been run. A graph of the results was plotted and deemed to show insufficient detail.

The console was reset returning the car to new condition (0 miles), and the experiment repeated with an initial run of 80 miles followed by 3 runs of 60 miles.
Again the console was reset and the experiment repeated with two runs of 80 miles followed by two runs of 60 miles. The data from these experiments was inserted into the original graph. The console was then reset once again to return the car to new condition for use in the long distance tests - I was not going to spend $4.5 million for just 300 miles!

Note:- Although this method allowed me to measure the power in 20 mile stages, it did not give results for the 20, 40 and 100 mile markers. However as no power loss had been observed before 120 miles these were assumed to also lie on the line of peak power.

TEST 1b. Used Nissan R390 + Oil Change

After running for over 9000 miles in long distance tests to reach the minimum power level, the same car was again given an oil change and the above test repeated to give a closer look at the power spike for a used car. Again multiple runs of 60 and 80 miles were required, and the data for 20, 40 and 100 mile markers assumed to lie on the same straight line as the 0, 60, 80 and 120 mile markers.

SUBSEQUENT TESTS

2. VW Nardo Concept + Oil Change

Due to the convoluted method of gathering data in the first test, the lack of any reliable 20 mile trackside marker, and a desire for greater accuracy I decided to alter the mileage between data points. Working towards an assumption of 6.2 miles = 10 km, thus 200 km = 124 miles, I settled on running 1.25 miles run up + 3 laps + 400 metres = 21 miles between data points.

A new VW Nardo Concept was obtained and the oil changed. The car was handed to Bob who ran 15 sessions of 21 miles at the test track. The power figure was recorded after each session and a graph plotted.

The car was then used for 12,000 miles of long distance tests before the oil was changed and this test repeated to look at the power spike in a used car.

3. Highly Tuned 2CV + Oil Change

To further narrow down the point of first power loss a combination of the above methods was used. An initial run of 60.5 miles (test 1 + additional 800 metres) was followed by a run of 21.5 miles (test 2 + additional 800 metres). There then followed 8 runs of 21 miles, and a final run of 60 miles.

The car chosen this time was a heavily tuned Citroen 2CV with these mods applied;

Racing Exhaust.
Stage 1 Turbo.
Racing Chip.
Port Polish.
Engine Balancing.
Fully Custom Transmission.

The transmission was adjusted by first moving the auto setting to maximum, then the final drive to maximum. The auto setting was then moved to minimum, and the final drive was also moved to minimum to create a car that could not pull away from a standstill under its own power, and could barely accelerate in 5th gear. The test was only made possible by the fact that there was a rolling start.

A 12,000 mile used car was run first for the allotted distance, power figures taken and a graph plotted. This previously used car was then used to win a new one and the experiment repeated to obtain the second set of results.

4. New Subaru Impreza Spec C

A new Subaru Impreza Spec C was bought and the stock oil retained. The car was given to Bob who ran for 315 miles at the test track in 21 mile stages. The power figure was recorded after each session and a graph plotted.

The console was reset to return the car to new condition (0 miles) and the oil was changed. The test was then repeated to obtain the power spike.

5. New Mazda BP Falken RX7

A new Mazda BP Falken RX7 was bought and the stock oil retained. The car was given to Bob who ran for 315 miles at the test track in 21 mile stages. The power figure was recorded after each session and a graph plotted.

The console was reset to return the car to new condition (0 miles) and the oil was changed. The test was then repeated to obtain the power spike.

6. New Amuse S2000 GT1

A new Amuse S2000 GT1 was bought and the stock oil retained. The car was given to Bob who ran for 315 miles at the test track in 21 mile stages. The power figure was recorded after each session and a graph plotted.

The console was reset to return the car to new condition (0 miles) and the oil was changed. The test was then repeated to obtain the power spike.

RESULTS

A table containing 32 data points was created for each of the six cars. These tables are not presented, but the graphs plotted from the data are shown.

R390 - Closeup.gifNardo - Closeup.gifTuned 2CV - Closeup.gif

Spec C - Closeup.gifFalken - Closeup.gifAmuse - Closeup.gif

ANALYSIS

Six cars were tested, and six spikes obtained for New cars after an oil change. Three of these cars were also tested in used condition after an oil change, the other three tested as new but without an oil change.

All of the new cars with fresh oil (pink lines) exhibited the exact same behaviour. In all cases the oil change gave a 5% increase in power, and in all cases this was short lived disappearing at some point between 100 and 200 miles.

All of the used cars with fresh oil (purple lines) exhibited a similar behaviour. The oil change would give a 10.525% increase in power - the reversal of the 5% power loss due to dirty oil combined with a 5% power boost due to servicing. Again the 5% boost due to servicing would be short lived, lasting for less than 200 miles.

All of the new cars without oil change (blue lines) behaved in a different way to those that had had their oil changed, but in the same manner as each other. There was absolutely no power loss at all from these cars during the first 300 miles.

Comparing new and used cars after an oil change shows that although there is a power difference due to permanant engine wear, the effect of the oil change is the same. A 5% boost from base power which is lost after the same additional mileage.

Comparing new cars with and without oil change, there is no difference in power once the 5% boost has worn off. This shows that the power boost due to GT Auto oil is not due to a better blend of oil - unless this "race oil" miraculously reverts to standard oil after 200 miles. It must be due to the engine being in peak condition having just been serviced as suggested in part 1 of these tests.

ADDENDUM

By altering the Mileage axis between tests I had attempted to narrow down the exact points at which power loss began and ended. The first test clearly shows that the entire loss occurs between 120 and 200 miles, while the following two tests show that the start point is between 124 and 126 miles, and the end point between 187 and 189 miles. However, with the very low power levels of the Citroen 2CV in the third test there is the possibility of innacuracy.

I later discovered that Polyphony Digital appears to use 1 mile = 1600 metres, and 1km = 0.625 miles as conversion factors. This discovery lead me to believe that the actual start and end points were 125 miles (200km) and 187.5 miles (300km), something I was easilly able to confirm.

I took a new Lotus Elan S1, performed the oil change and gave it to Bob who ran two sessions of 60 miles. I then drove 0.5 mile sessions in A-spec mode, checking the power to weight ratio after each run. There was no change in the PWR at 125 miles, but there was the next time I checked at 125.5 miles.

Bob then ran another 60 mile session before I returned to running short sessions in A-spec mode. The PWR continued to change after every run, and at 187.5 miles was only 0.001 away from the stock value. I then ran a very short run before checking again. At 187.6 miles the PWR was the exact same as it had been before I changed the oil. I allowed Bob to run for a few more laps before one final check, and again the PWR was as it had been before the oil change.

CONCLUSIONS

* After an oil change, no power is lost for 125 miles (200km).

* Between 125 miles (200km) and 187.5 miles (300km) power is lost at a steady rate, returning to the base power level.

* After 187.5 miles (300km) there is again no power loss until the effects of engine wear begin at around 780 miles (1248km). I suspect that a test similar to this Addendum would show the point at which engine wear begins to be 750 miles (1200km).
 
my srt-10 viper lost 1 hp permanently it seems. it won't go any higher than 1031 now. it has a little over 500 hard driven miles on it. it sees rev limiter a lot, and lots of nitrous, and drag strip passes. i tried changing my oil like 3 times, but it won't retrun to 1032.
 
my srt-10 viper lost 1 hp permanently it seems. it won't go any higher than 1031 now. it has a little over 500 hard driven miles on it. it sees rev limiter a lot, and lots of nitrous, and drag strip passes. i tried changing my oil like 3 times, but it won't retrun to 1032.

I had a quick look at a Dodge Viper SRT10 and was unable to replicate your power loss with 600 miles of maximum speed cruising. I can think of two possible reasons for your loss...

1. Rounding error.
A 1032hp Viper without weight reduction has a weight of 1533kg and PWR of 1.486. Weight divided by PWR = 1031.628hp.
A 1032hp Viper with maximum weight reduction has a weight of 1272kg and PWR of 1.233. Weight divided by PWR = 1031.630hp.
There is the possibility that your game is reading 1031.6hp as 1031hp.

2. The more likely scenario - Nitrous assisted passes on the drag strip may be more wearing to the engine than constant maximum velocity runs. I have already noted that hotlapping the Nurburgring is less wearing than lapping the test track, so it is entirely possible for other race types to affect the engine differently.

Unfortunately I am having trouble finding the time to write up the tests I have already done never mind finding time to run more tests, but if someone else wants to do it...
 
Another good write up Car-Less. I've stayed on the sidelines and watched for the past bit to see how much more detailed these studies have become.

Just a question though. I'm noticing that you are performing only one oil change at the start and then that's it and measuring all the different power loss markers from that point there. If you can in a further study (when you have time), you should do a thing from where your first power loss marker is (the 120mile/200km odd mark), do ANOTHER oil change and then measure the effects of that change on the motor as you already have the rate of loss from your 1st studies. Things that come to mind for me are:

*Will it give the same rate of power loss after the 2nd oil change as it did in the 1st one?
*Will this rate be affected if you lengthened the gap between oil changes but before permanent wear sets in?? Like oil change at 200km vs oil change at 350km
*Will this continue if you repeat your oil changes at regular intervals until the first sign of PERMANENT power loss??

This will come in very handy for the distance between that first bit of power loss from new until permanent power loss kicks in.

Now, to help nitrorustler41, what I have seen personally from the oil changes and permanent wear is that you fully notice permanent wear around the 1000km (620miles) mark. Lots of us who are into the sprints and top speed challenge use nitrous religiously and we keep getting reports in all those categories that it starts losing power permanently at around that point. Whether it's 970-980-990-999km for the exact point where it's suffered permanent power loss, I'm not exactly sure, but I DO know that at 1000km, it's done and dusted can never get that lost power back. :)
 
Bump: I wanted to know how far I'd have to drive a new (un-oiled) car before I'd start getting any HP loss, thanks to this thread I know know that it looks like its between 600-900 miles, ie 1000km. A belated thanks to Car-Less for research and info.
 
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