Practical Suggestions for Penalty System

[cleanLX]

Clean racing sometimes entails really close trailing and an overtake when exiting a corner with greater speed than a lead driver who maybe had their rear end kick out on exit. Since a car is on the edge of balance exiting a corner, small contacts may not be avoidable as the steering and throttle inputs have very little margin for error and the slipstream effect is so strong even at lower speeds. So these little bumps should be acceptable as long as they dont significantly deviate the lead driver from their line even if they get overtaken.

i dont know about you guys but most of my spins and position losses occur at corner exits when mashing the throttle and i lose control trying to countersteer out of the spin taking any close racers with me. It shouldnt penalize them for small contact and passinng me.

Also, many times minor contact occurs during fair overtaking attempts in tight places (nurb im looking at you). It is these penalties that we want to mitigate

Most of my spins and position losses are on corner entry... as such...
A very significant amount of my overtakes are due to mid-corner speed and specifically exit, and, I'm always certain to time it in such a way that i am not close enough to touch the leading car... I'm anticipating that wiggle and need to be just far enough back to not get caught up in it... I don't believe that if you are looking to get a run on someone you need to have your splitter straight up their diffuser... the whole idea of getting that run means there needs be a little distance to get into the throttle earlier... so, we will have to agree to disagree...
Potatoes and Tomatoes?

 

[ASH32]

There are multiple corners in the game where the car who is slightly behind, but on the inside has the optimal line and the outside driver should back off.
Turn 1 Suzuka
Turn 1 Dragon Trail
Turn 1 Brands Hatch GP
Turn 1 Nurb GP

Yes and there are multiple idiots who move across the race track in the braking zones, even now when it gets them a penalty (albeit less than the car behind), we don't need PD encouraging more people to use this blocking "tactic" by removing penalties just because they are the car in front.

 

[Haitauer]

There are multiple corners in the game where the car who is slightly behind, but on the inside has the optimal line and the outside driver should back off.
Turn 1 Suzuka
Turn 1 Dragon Trail
Turn 1 Brands Hatch GP
Turn 1 Nurb GP

Correct me if im wrong, but i think its not about who has the optimal line. You have to be able to make the pass before the corner entry to "own" the corner and make the driver being passed responsible to leave you room for your chosen driving line. Dont they have a rule for this irl? That you have to be half a car lenght ahead of the car being passed to acquire the right to choose line / "own the corner"?

Aa yes.. And leader should obey the one line change to defend -rule.

 

[John Crellin]

Maybe you misunderstood what I was getting at. Certainly not the same kind of abrupt change, like we have where DR B is so much less punished than DR A, with a hard line between the two.
For SR to work effectively it has to mean something, and that is basically something like incidents (scaled) per race. Naturally, you'd expect higher SR to have a lower ratio, so that's where the scaling comes from. I think scaling the boosts is better than scaling the penalties, since SR boost is too high per race for SR 99 - why should we get/need any at all?! But it has to be a linear scale - my example in another thread was that max gain per race should be enough to get you half way closer towards SR 100, so e.g. +5 at SR 90, +2 at SR 95, etc.

Also, because matchmaking is SR first, it would be grouping together those playing by similar rules. So you wouldn't get the same kind of problem as with DR B vs A.

Ahh ok, that could work then.

Why not? I'm talking about being proportionate - a super minor SR hit for a super minor contact. It has to be at a level where anyone trying to be clean wouldn't even notice them, but someone who habitually rubs and pushes will end up with a different SR.

TBH I think it's the opposite - not statistical noise at all - when taken together the little contacts give perhaps a better picture of a driver's general behaviour than an occasional big crash. I've met a few players recently who have learned to gently nudge someone off the road when they're trying to pass on a straight, which right now gets no penalty at all.

I mean, they would have to change their system at the same time to accommodate tenths. But sure, that could work too. As long as no time penalty is given then that would work. Id just like to be able to have a race on Blue Moon Oval without having to worry about minor bumps. I still think eliminating the penalties for really minor contacts would improve the racing experience. I still wouldnt like to see that SR down marker for what is essentially contact free racing. And it would make the system a bit more complicated to scale the severity of the penalties along a incident by incident continuum.

The judgement algorithm would be difficult to write and may get buggy pretty fast and who would you blame? both equally?

Most of my spins and position losses are on corner entry... as such...
A very significant amount of my overtakes are due to mid-corner speed and specifically exit, and, I'm always certain to time it in such a way that i am not close enough to touch the leading car... I'm anticipating that wiggle and need to be just far enough back to not get caught up in it... I don't believe that if you are looking to get a run on someone you need to have your splitter straight up their diffuser... the whole idea of getting that run means there needs be a little distance to get into the throttle earlier... so, we will have to agree to disagree...
Potatoes and Tomatoes?

In an ideal scenario you're completely right, but race conditions vary greatly.
You're telling me that in every race you have been in you have never found yourself up someones rear on corner exit? What about over-under maneuvers? i have come very close to others when pulling that off and sometimes they see me doing it and try to get on the gas a bit earlier and end up with over steer or they brake a bit more to hold the inside line out of the corner, both of these cases cause the driver to now be directly in front of me and it can get very dicey indeed

 

[Sean Renon]

Correct me if im wrong, but i think its not about who has the optimal line. You have to be able to make the pass before the corner entry to "own" the corner and make the driver being passed responsible to leave you room for your chosen driving line. Dont they have a rule for this irl? That you have to be half a car lenght ahead of the car being passed to acquire the right to choose line / "own the corner"?

Aa yes.. And leader should obey the one line change to defend -rule.

If I'm halfway alongside somebody and he's given me rights to the inside of the corner, but he turns into me - your rules would apply a penalty to me - and not him.
If I'm defending a position, somebody get's around me on the outside, but he hasn't finished the overtake, if he turns into me - your rules would apply a penalty to me and not him.

Both are very real situations where the driver who is currently "behind" has rights to the inside of a corner and the "ahead" driver could turn down into him without repercussions.

Also, per your comment - no, you don't have to be half a car length ahead - you need to be half a car length alongside in order to claim equal rights to a corner.

 

[John Crellin]

If I'm halfway alongside somebody and he's given me rights to the inside of the corner, but he turns into me - your rules would apply a penalty to me - and not him.
If I'm defending a position, somebody get's around me on the outside, but he hasn't finished the overtake, if he turns into me - your rules would apply a penalty to me and not him.

Both are very real situations where the driver who is currently "behind" has rights to the inside of a corner and the "ahead" driver could turn down into him without repercussions.

I think by definition "sufficient overlap" means "side by side"
The way the system could handle this scenario is to either give both equal penalties for side collision or if the overlap was too small and the outside driver turns and pits themselves on the inside drivers front bumper then a penalty to the inside driver would be given (as it should) the trailing driver should yield to avoid contact in this situation

 

[KK78]

To suggest no contact is neither allowed nor likely in real life racing would be crazy, and to suggest the same in a video game?

A complete non-starter imo.

I have a different take on the starting points for improving the system...

The first step for PD is to rationalise the penalties in my opinion, clear indicators of if you do X you will get Y seconds of penalty time. At present, there is far too much ambiguity which leads to contempt for the system as a whole.

Next, they should address the disproportionate nature of the penalties themselves, at times a major infringement is dealt a minor penalty and at other times you simply trade a little paint and get hit with a sledgehammer. Further to this the way in which penalties are reduced needs work, on screen it says 'SLOW DOWN' yet in reality you need to come to a grinding halt as the timer beings to lazily crawl down. A 5-second penalty can thus mean between 7-10 seconds, in reality= race over. If you cut the 1st chicane at Monza by half a metre at 20 mph you may well get a 5-second penalty, did you gain 5 seconds by cutting the corner? I think not.

Going off track or hitting walls is another area of contention, run wide on a corner and clearly lose time- get a penalty, hit the bus stop wall at Dragons Tail at speed, loose all momentum and pace- get a penalty, go off track at Interlagos to avoid a pile up losing time on the grass- get a penalty, in what world are such penalties proportionate? The system should recognise 1st whether you gained anything and if you did calculate the penalty accordingly not simple whack you with 5 seconds, because, well, stuff...

This has all led to some drivers just ignoring the penalties they receive, going on to the end of the race and hoping for the best- this frankly renders the whole system quite pointless in my view.

The system needs to respect the player 1st because only then will the player (or at least those who want to race cleanly) respect the system. At present some players (of all levels) seem more focused on gaming the system because they don't respect it or understand it because, it's often random nature, leads to confusion.

Any penalty system that appears to 'expect' there not to be human error renders it laughable in my opinion. Even the holiest of S S drivers make mistakes, although they will rarely admit it

 

[cleanLX]

In an ideal scenario you're completely right, but race conditions vary greatly.
You're telling me that in every race you have been in you have never found yourself up someones rear on corner exit? What about over-under maneuvers? i have come very close to others when pulling that off and sometimes they see me doing it and try to get on the gas a bit earlier and end up with over steer or they brake a bit more to hold the inside line out of the corner, both of these cases cause the driver to now be directly in front of me and it can get very dicey indeed

hmmm... yes, I believe you are correct... I've scared myself a time or 2... possibly on over-unders... I seem to recall a few instances where I've though... how did we not touch... so yes... not on exit but certainly on the cross over... DOH.

 

[Haitauer]

Also, per your comment - no, you don't have to be half a car length ahead - you need to be half a car length alongside in order to claim equal rights to a corner.

Aa yes thats true. Then again one must remember equal doesnt mean the leader should back off but just leave enough room for the other one to stay on track. Door to door grind should also be allowed to a degree..

 

[Outspacer]

I'm with you on this, and the other posts from you in this thread. Fix SR in the way you describe and do away with all minor penalties and the serving of them on track. Any major corner cuts are added to your race time at the end. Every other incident on track would be SR related.

They would have to make sure that whatever they did, couldn't be gamed like the SR system was pre penalties. i.e clean race for 9 out of 10 laps, then punt the leader at the last corner for the win and blue SR. We cannot go back to that what so ever.

Yeah, it has to be balanced nicely. There's no escaping that someone could do the dirty move in one race, then do a few clean races, and be back where they were. At least that means that for most races they're coerced into being clean, even though they might save their dirty for an important race. Really nothing any system can do about that

I mean, they would have to change their system at the same time to accommodate tenths. But sure, that could work too. As long as no time penalty is given then that would work. Id just like to be able to have a race on Blue Moon Oval without having to worry about minor bumps. I still think eliminating the penalties for really minor contacts would improve the racing experience. I still wouldnt like to see that SR down marker for what is essentially contact free racing. And it would make the system a bit more complicated to scale the severity of the penalties along a incident by incident continuum.

The judgement algorithm would be difficult to write and may get buggy pretty fast and who would you blame? both equally?

Well I figure it's easier for them to use tenths for tallying scores just during a race, rather than change to using 0 .. 999 everywhere. The important thing is that it can score a minor contact appropriately, and currently its only option is either ignore or give -1 SR (or more). That's 1% of the scale, and too much; there isn't enough granularity.

I think at least for the lowest levels of contact, the -SR should be the same for each player and it's purely a statistical measure. With harder contacts it still might be equal, but more likely use the (forever flawed) judgement system to bias it one way or the other. Getting a modest SR hit that you didn't deserve is annoying, but nowhere near as annoying as an undeserved time penalty!

Time penalties are the last resort, for the clearest cases only, where only one player gets the penalty. In all other cases, even up to quite large collisions, there would only be a proportionate -SR hit. (I don't believe -SR hits need to be as large as they are now IF the gains are limited as above - it has to avoid the wild swings seen currently).

There is a judgement system, and it will always be flawed. So my thinking is that it can mostly only be used as part of a statistical scoring system. If it turns out that no cases will be clear-cut enough to warrant a time penalty then so be it, IMO.

 

[John Crellin]

Going off track or hitting walls is another area of contention, run wide on a corner and clearly lose time- get a penalty, hit the bus stop wall at Dragons Tail at speed, loose all momentum and pace- get a penalty, go off track at Interlagos to avoid a pile up losing time on the grass- get a penalty, in what world are such penalties proportionate? The system should recognise 1st whether you gained anything and if you did calculate the penalty accordingly not simple whack you with 5 seconds, because, well, stuff...

Its these kind of judgment calls that the software will have a hard time with. There needs to be defined metrics that determine whether a time penalty should be given and then some sort of metric to determine how much time was saved by a cut by a wall ride. How would you determine this?

Im ok with the way they have to boundaries set up where i can find out which corners can be cut and which ones cant in quali. I can also determine which boundaries are absolutely no-no zones which give a disproportionate amount of penalty time (like 10-15sec) for cutting. That to me is consistency that i can count on and strategize against. Id be more in favor of allowing penalty time to be immediately counted down upon deceleration even off track.

I find it annoying that after a wreck i get hit with penalty time and it doesnt count down while i wait to reenter track, while i work my way out of the sand, or while i spin 3x more trying to get started in first gear. So now not only have i lost time due to the wreck but now i have to contend with a full 5 sec penalty on top of that?? no thanks

 

[tofuhero]

I would like to see no more scrubbing allowed, and for drivers to have to serve their penalties in the pits with either a drive-through or a stop-and-go, depending on the severity of the penalty. And penalties can't be served during a tire/fuel stop. Not only would this add realism, but it would prevent people from stopping on the track and becoming a road hazard, while still maintaining the dynamic results of cars changing positions by serving penalties. If you can't serve the penalty in time in a short race, it's added to your final time at the end. If you don't serve it in an endurance race in X number of laps, you get a more severe penalty on top of it. Perhaps this would mean the average Sport daily race time would have to increase, but I'd be fine with that.

My current feeling on penalties is more what is done at Bathurst 24h -- minor contact is fine, but if it results in an unsafe situation, car damage, or a car going off-track then it's a penalty. So a rear-end collision or divebomb situation, the driver in back gets a drive-through. If it results in the car ahead going off, that would be a longer stop. But if two cars are side-by-side racing down a narrow straight and there's minor rubbing, no harm no foul. If one of them shoves the other off the track though, the person with four wheels still on the track gets the penalty.

 

[Veinz]

Would like to see the penalty system go back to pre 1.15. But make it so the penalties are added to your total race time instead of allowing players to serve it on track.

If you really want to make people serve penalties during the race then make them drive through the pits and force them to stop at their pit box for 5-10 seconds without being able to add fuel or change tires.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

I would like to see no more scrubbing allowed, and for drivers to have to serve their penalties in the pits with either a drive-through or a stop-and-go, depending on the severity of the penalty. And penalties can't be served during a tire/fuel stop. Not only would this add realism, but it would prevent people from stopping on the track and becoming a road hazard, while still maintaining the dynamic results of cars changing positions by serving penalties. If you can't serve the penalty in time in a short race, it's added to your final time at the end. If you don't serve it in an endurance race in X number of laps, you get a more severe penalty on top of it. Perhaps this would mean the average Sport daily race time would have to increase, but I'd be fine with that.

My current feeling on penalties is more what is done at Bathurst 24h -- minor contact is fine, but if it results in an unsafe situation, car damage, or a car going off-track then it's a penalty. So a rear-end collision or divebomb situation, the driver in back gets a drive-through. If it results in the car ahead going off, that would be a longer stop. But if two cars are side-by-side racing down a narrow straight and there's minor rubbing, no harm no foul. If one of them shoves the other off the track though, the person with four wheels still on the track gets the penalty.

The problem is that the game has a very hard time to see the difference between a car shoving another car off, and a car bouncing off another car and driving himself off the track. I've been hit in the apex by an outside driver ignoring my car while we're alongside each other and usually get a penalty for that. 10 sec if he manages to bounce themselves off the track.

The system needs to look further than the point of impact, it doesn't seem to take the driving line and positioning of each car into account. And indeed it also needs to look at the after. No harm no foul, ie no significant speed vector change to either car, no need for time penalties. SR Down perhaps, yet not time penalties that interfere with the race.

 

[fastone371]

How about just enabling damage? People who like to hit other cars get their own car damaged and their car slows down enough that they end up trundling around at the back of every race. You would have to think that would reduce dirty driving the "win at all cost" attitude.

 

[Veinz]

How about just enabling damage? People who like to hit other cars get their own car damaged and their car slows down enough that they end up trundling around at the back of every race. You would have to think that would reduce dirty driving the "win at all cost" attitude.

I'd like it to try it out, but I seen Turn 10 do this with some Forza Motorsport multiplayer hoppers in the past and it didn't really make much of a difference iirc.

 

[GWJP RACING]

The penalty system is a piss take. I was a double s rated driver for a while and within a single race at that armpit Monza I dropped to a double c rating. I got so many penalty's from other racers bumping me from behind I couldn't run them down. And the bumps and pushes weren't worthy of a penalty. I'm slowly loosing interest in GT Sport just because of the penalty system.
The only solution is to penalize the drivers that actually bump and dive bomb into corners not the drivers who receive said bump.

 

[John Crellin]

The penalty system is a piss take. I was a double s rated driver for a while and within a single race at that armpit Monza I dropped to a double c rating. I got so many penalty's from other racers bumping me from behind I couldn't run them down. And the bumps and pushes weren't worthy of a penalty. I'm slowly loosing interest in GT Sport just because of the penalty system.
The only solution is to penalize the drivers that actually bump and dive bomb into corners not the drivers who receive said bump.

Sure but how? It's one thing to say that another to implement it.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

The problem is that the game has a very hard time to see the difference between a car shoving another car off, and a car bouncing off another car and driving himself off the track. I've been hit in the apex by an outside driver ignoring my car while we're alongside each other and usually get a penalty for that. 10 sec if he manages to bounce themselves off the track.

The system needs to look further than the point of impact, it doesn't seem to take the driving line and positioning of each car into account. And indeed it also needs to look at the after. No harm no foul, ie no significant speed vector change to either car, no need for time penalties. SR Down perhaps, yet not time penalties that interfere with the race.

At some point I think we have to concede that the penalty system is not intelligent or dynamic. I think their goal was to create a dumb, low memory, but simple penalty system that attributed equal fault and made everyone paranoid of hitting each other. Clearly it didn't work and now they've added layers of complexity to the system but at it's core, it's still a basic system that is not anchored into live dynamic track metrics.

The only suggestions that I see that fits within this paradigm are systems where the track is divided into zones (straights, braking, turn in, apex, exit, etc.) and the weight of fault is shifted depending on which zone the incident occurred in. You guys have already addressed the potential of zone based penalties far more eloquently than I can but I think you get what I mean.

I think serving penalties in the pit is a great idea as long as penalty times are adjusted to account for the extended pit entry and exit times.

 

[GWJP RACING]

Sure but how? It's one thing to say that another to implement it.

I love hard fair BTCC style racing, I don't mind the little love tap and side by side racing. It can't be that hard to give a driver a penalty who intentionally bumps and dive bombs into corners, I think most people would agree with me.

 

[Mr616]

I love hard fair BTCC style racing, I don't mind the little love tap and side by side racing. It can't be that hard to give a driver a penalty who intentionally bumps and dive bombs into corners, I think most people would agree with me.

BTCC is NOT how I want my online races thank you. That isn't hard and fair. It's mostly idiots playing bumper cars. Fun to watch, but not to take part in.

 

[Alfabob46]

BTCC is NOT how I want my online races thank you. That isn't hard and fair. It's mostly idiots playing bumper cars. Fun to watch, but not to take part in.

I would like it more in line with V8 supercars style.
Give racing room and not running people off track, and penalize when advantage is gained.
If there's a slight tap and no position changed race on.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

BTCC is NOT how I want my online races thank you. That isn't hard and fair. It's mostly idiots playing bumper cars. Fun to watch, but not to take part in.

Haha, I had to look up BTCC to get an idea of what you guys were talking about. I found a highlight clip called "An Era of Greatness" which proceeded to be nothing more than a crash compilation video.

 

[John Crellin]

Haha, I had to look up BTCC to get an idea of what you guys were talking about. I found a highlight clip called "An Era of Greatness" which proceeded to be nothing more than a crash compilation video.

That video looked just like @Sven Jurgens penalty compilations he puts together

 

[fastone371]

Haha, I had to look up BTCC to get an idea of what you guys were talking about. I found a highlight clip called "An Era of Greatness" which proceeded to be nothing more than a crash compilation video.

Looks like more intentional spins in BTCC than NASCAR.

 

[Mr616]

Haha, I had to look up BTCC to get an idea of what you guys were talking about. I found a highlight clip called "An Era of Greatness" which proceeded to be nothing more than a crash compilation video.

LMAO. See, it's great to watch but if you were racing in amongst that lot online? Nah, not for me.

In fact, you couldn't have picked a better video to prove my point. Well done sir.

 

[ASH32]

LMAO. See, it's great to watch but if you were racing in amongst that lot online? Nah, not for me.

Yes this and if for some reason anyone needs further proof as to why you don't want to race against this kind of driver then look up Matt Neal or Yvan Muller, they has to be countless videos of their idea of good driving and trust me you don't want this in GT Sport.

 

[Mr616]

Yes this and if for some reason anyone needs further proof as to why you don't want to race against this kind of driver then look up Matt Neal or Yvan Muller, they has to be countless videos of their idea of good driving and trust me you don't want this in GT Sport.

I'm bookmarking that video for anybody else that dares to mention BTCC as some kind of holy grail of great racing

 

[Mirror_man]

I'm bookmarking that video for anybody else that dares to mention BTCC as some kind of holy grail of great racing

Only a Maniac would do such a thing!!!!

That or a true fan of... Wacky Races!!! (that is prety much the same....)

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Only a Maniac would do such a thing!!!!

That or a true fan of... Wacky Races!!! (that is prety much the same....)

I loved that game on ps1, that's a blast from the past. Perhaps people think they are playing Speed racer?