(Private Lounge System) An Easy way to race among your friends

[PAPPACLART]

Guys, rather than all of you continually adding eachother as PSN friends. The best and easiest way to ensure that you can all race with your PSN friends privately, especially those in clubs or groups.

A group leader should create some specific PSN accounts and Load up GT5 on each of those accounts and also set up the private lounges on all of them.

All Friends/members of any group/club should add those PSN accounts only and only join the private lounges of those PSN accounts. The PSN accounts do not need to be online or with GT5 booted up for any member added as a friend to join those private lounges of the new accounts. (only 1 person needs to create and manage the set of accounts)

So in theory all you need is a couple of PSN accouns, and if you have 100 of the same friends/club members added to them everyone can race each other with out the need to befriend all of those people.

EXAMPLE (please dont add)

An example of the PSN accounts you should create.

GT5_Casual (for casual racing)
GT5_TestNtune (for tuning/testing)

GT5_Lobby_1 (for official races/events)
GT5_Lobby_2
GT5_Lobby_3

Create as many PSN accounts as is needed for the amount of members in the group.

I created a similar Lobby System for GBRC, it works fantastically and we have around 60 regular guys added You can read more here if it don't make sense. http://www.gbracingclub.co.uk/news.php?item.28

If you guys do this, it will be much easier to race with each other and to organise races/meet ups with your groups of friends or members of your club, as well as bringing/intergrating new friends/members to the club without them having to add/send multiple friend request to join any particular persons private lounge.

PS

Also, for any cheaters/rammers or idiots added to your accounts, all can be deleted from the accounts and wont have access to the private lounges no longer


EDIT

Ok guys, to show you how this works, I have created a club. Its a simply lobby system that will cater for 100 racers, Please take a look and sign up if you are interested https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=230587


Cheers

Ryan


Cheers

 

[Slash]

More like GTP, and people already do this. Most won't though since you can't transfer some stuff and you have to start over.

 

[PAPPACLART]

More like GTP, and people already do this. Most won't though since you can't transfer some stuff and you have to start over.

You dont need to start over dude. I think you may be miss understanding. I have been managing my private Lounges for several months now.



Only 1 person in a group of upto 100 people needs to create the accounts, and everybody who is friends with that person adds those accounts. Then when all of your friends want to race with eachother, they all only join the lounges of those accounts that have been newly created.

As it normally stands. If I have 100 friends on my PSN, and they all play GT5. If I join the lounge of say BillyBob, but my other friend Jessijoe wants to race with us, then Jessijoe has to be friends with billybob inorder to join billybob's private lounge, as does any other of my PSN frriends.

So if I want all 100 of my PSN GT5 friends to be able to race with each other in any 1 persons lounge then all 100 have to be friends with eachother which is stupid and time consuming!

Creating several Specific accounts, and asking all of your 100 friends to be friends with those accounts ONLY, and to ONLY join the Private Lounges of those specific accounts, then none for my PSN friends have to be friends with each other inorder to race with each other, as they only have to be friends with those specific accounts and only join the private lounges of those accounts.

And what is better, is none of the newly created PSN accounts have to ever be online. the 6 I have created for my club are all level zero and are never online but we all only join the Lounges of those PSN accounts I created. Every now and again I have to log in an accept friend request or delete guys that no longer race with us.

Its really simply and works really great.

 

[ChaosStar79]

That's a really good idea. Is this just for you brits or are us yanks allowed to play too?

 

[PAPPACLART]

That's a really good idea. Is this just for you brits or are us yanks allowed to play too?

Anyone who can create a PSN account can do it so yes Americans can do it too:-)

 

[LamboLP700-4]

Sounds like a pretty damn solid idea. Just need someone willing to sacrifice the time and accounts to get it started.

 

[PAPPACLART]

Cheers bud.


I would encourage all GT5 players with a ton of friends to use a system like this. And deffinatley for small groups/clubs that run leagues/events. Using this system at my club has made my life much easier. Now when new members come along they don't have to Add 60 odd guys to there friends list so that they can race, now just the few accounts I have created.

A similar system would work well for GTP divisions. I sent a PM a few months ago to GTP Admin, they seem to like the idea but not sure if and when they will impliment something similar.

Effictively, by doing this, you are creating a private lobby system where over 1 or several accounts, you or anyone added has access to upto 100 racers, (PSN limiting) and the owner of the accounts can manage who is added or taken off.

 

[GTP_FastM3]

This is a great idea. I'm beginning to understand it better.

One question is DLC content. Can you race on Spa or the Kart Space tracks if the accounts don't own those tracks.

 

[PAPPACLART]

This is a great idea. I'm beginning to understand it better.

One question is DLC content. Can you race on Spa or the Kart Space tracks if the accounts don't own those tracks.

If you or the owner/creater of the accounts does not personally have the DLC, then no it would not be possible. But we at GBRC got around that as some other Admins have the login details for the 6 accounts that I created. So before I had the DLC tracks, C7mpr booted up his GT5 logged into all of the accounts, downloaded DLC. Then when we all joined the lounges we could all race DLC tracks.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Clart you sent me the link to this thread on my "fixing online racing" thread. A buddy of mine have been kicking this very idea around for a few days now, trying to figure out how to launch and manage it, mainly to keep the rooms busy.

Was this an invite for me to join also? I'd like to give it a try, see how it all works if you don't mind.

 

[PAPPACLART]

Clart you sent me the link to this thread on my "fixing online racing" thread. A buddy of mine have been kicking this very idea around for a few days now, trying to figure out how to launch and manage it, mainly to keep the rooms busy.

Was this an invite for me to join also? I'd like to give it a try, see how it all works if you don't mind.

I am just trying to get the word out. The accounts posted up are just an idea and are fictional. For anyone in a club or a group or for people with a huge number of friends, this is the best system.

I am suprised more people have not jujmped on this, perhaps I have not explained well enough and people are not seeing the benefits?


If you want. Add GBRC_Casual and GBRC_TestNtune. Tho we are in different time zones. My lobbies start to occupy from say 5pm UK time onward.

 

[PAPPACLART]

Ok guys, to show you how this works, I have created a club. Please take a look and sign up if you are

interested https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=230587

 

[HP]

I can attest to this, it seriously works a treat.

Given I don't generally have spare time to manage such things it is a huge win to be able to run the group like this; get on board guys it's really the way to go

 

[Eric W]

Very clever idea. I may have to try this.

 

[PAPPACLART]

I am trying the get GTP admin to create a similar lounge system for GTP divisional drivers.

If somebody wants to help me create some more accounts, so that I can create a huge network of accounts to cater for GTP members please let me know as there is only so many PSN/E-mail accounts I can do in 1 day as it is pretty time consuming.


NOTE:

1. Anyone who decides to create these lounges, for it to work you must Load up GT5 on each of the accounts that you create and go via Private Lounge set up and set up the lounges as nobody will be able to join..

2. You must strictly encourage all friends added to your accounts to only join the lounges of the private accounts that you have created if they want to race with others also added to the accounts. A friend Jumping into there own private lounges will only allow racers exclusive to that persons friendslist to join.

3. Again, you will never see these accounts online, they will always be off line, just head to the coffee cup of the lounge you want to join. (you wont see yellow Icon or green dot) that normally suggests the account is online or that members are in the lounge, jus tclick on coffee cup and if people are in the lounge you will see them.

4. Whoever creates the lounges, make sure you add yourself (your PSN) as a friend to the PSN accounts as you wont be able to join the Lounges yourself.

Have fun

 

[PAPPACLART]

BTW

It is also possible to create accounts/lounges specific to particular car classes/PP.

an example.ACCOUNT: 700PP_Road cars. Get 100 people added, and you have a lobby just for 700pp road car racing.

Create say 50 accounts, that cater for all different types of car spec and you can have specific lobbies for specific types of racing.

Its all only limited by your imagination. :-)

I use private lobbies all the time, but to my mind, that's going way around the system to get good clean racing. I put a lot of time into the game, trolling through online lobbies, to find one or two good, clean drivers once in a while to add to my friends list. My list is now chockfull of guys like that. But how many hours did I put into the game this year to do that? Hundreds easily. All the hardcore guys will do the same. But what of the millions of casual users, whose $$$ PD depends on for survival. 100,000 enthusiasts can't keep the game going.

After reading dozens of posts over the months, I've come to the conclusion that millions of people have tried online racing and at least 95% of them have had a negative experience with it and never come back. I'm only guessing of course,but just taking into account the worldwide sales of the game and how many real racing lobbies you find online, with real PP, hp, weight or car restrictions leads me to think this.

Online is the shizzle when it comes to gaming, and perhaps even moreso with racing, as it's a fairly simple thing to do, and with spec cars you can race in dead even cars so you don't have to worry about tuning. If PD misses the boat on the online thing, I fear for the future of the game. I think they really have to sort this out, or the next version of the game may really lag in sales, and when someone comes along to duplicate this game but with better online racing, which will happen sooner or later, GT5 will be done. I'd switch in a heartbeat and so would my online friends.




If you haven't checked out Clart's set up, you should. I think it is one possible way around the online lobby system, that allows one to gather with a large group of people for some good racing, with some self policing and the ability to kick someone permanently from the group as needed, a sort of penalty system but not done automatically. I have just joined myself, but I'm very interested to see it working and I think this sort of arrangement could easily take over GT5, for the real enthisiasts anyway.

For those of you that advocate online lobbies without rules or regulations, this is what you are going to get. All the good people fleeing into private lobbies with 100 other good drivers. A few dozen of these groups set up and the online free lobbies will be a wasteland of guys running X1's around Indy and 9000 pp racing at Daytona. Who will you run against then? There won't be many good drivers left in open lobbies. What happens to the future of the game at that point, when all the responsible hosts are sitting in their own private lobbies?

That's what I'm talking about!

Its a real shame, but what I would like is for GTP or many of its active members to create a multitude of private lobbies like I have. Each group of 100 could be manageg/farmed/cultivated by several of its regulars who will act as Admin for the group and will maintain a good level of driving within the group.

I would hope for there to be a huge database of these lobby names posted up in a specific part of the GTP forums with open spaces advertised. Members or people looking to join 1 of several of these private lobbies could simply add themselves


A simple example of some accounts that could be created showing how many friends added to each. A basic set up.


CORE_Casual_A 97/100
CORE_Casual_B 100/100
CORE_Casual_C 99/100
CORE_Casual_D 91/100
CORE_Casual_E 93/100
CORE_Casual_F 57/100


GHTQ_Casual_A 86/100
GHTQ_Casual_B 93/100
GHTQ_Casual_C 55/100
GHTQ_Casual_D 45/100
GHTQ_Casual_E 67/100
GHTQ_Casual_F 100/100

GT5'r_Casual_A 77/100
GT5'r_Casual_B 55/100
GT5'r_Casual_C 98/100
GT5'r_Casual_D 100/100


GBRC_Casual_A 60/100
GBRC_Casual_B 76/100
GBRC_Casual_C 85/100


GTP_Casual_A 100/100
GTP_Casual_B 88/100
GTP_Casual_C 5/100
GTP_Casual_D 45/100
GTP_Casual_E 88/100

Etc


You could even do a big qualifier, and make the lobbies divisional based on ability. Alos, any members can be friends with multiple of these accounts, so bringing a much larger scope to the amount of possible clean drivers/rooms any one person has access to.


THE ABOVE CAN HAPPEN NOW I can do all of this, but I need to create 10s and 10s of e-mail addresses and a ton of PSN accounts, it will take ages for 1 person to do it all.


An example of how OFFICIIAL GTP Divisional accounts could work. .

To cater for the 5 divisions of GTP, and if considering there is 100 members per division, with each division split into 3 groups - Gold Silver and Bronze. It would require anywhere between 6-9 accounts per division.

An example of how the Private lounges/accounts for 1 division could look.


Division 1 Gold (lobby A B C)

GTP_D1_G_A
GTP_D1_G_B
GTP_D1_G_C

Division 1 S for Silver (lobby A B C)

GTP_D1_S_A
GTP_D1_S_A
GTP_D1_S_A

Division 1 B for Bronze (lobby A B C)

GTP_D1_B_A
GTP_D1_B_B
GTP_D1_B_C

Simply just copy the format over to other divisions. All accounts are only open to GTP registered members etc.



I need help to get this going.

 

[Knight Spirit]

This is a pretty great idea, just saying though, you don't have to use a real email when creating a psn account. Just put in gtp@700pp.com or something...

 

[PAPPACLART]

This is a pretty great idea, just saying though, you don't have to use a real email when creating a psn account. Just put in gtp@700pp.com or something...

Cool, thats very handy to know, I did not realise that. Cheers, learn something new everyday.

 

[easy9]

Hi Pappa, it was great meeting/racing you last week. I think I may be able to help create/run some more accounts. I will try to put my idea together in the next day or 2 and send you a PM and/or talk to you on line.

I am trying the get GTP admin to create a similar lounge system for GTP divisional drivers.

If somebody wants to help me create some more accounts, so that I can create a huge network of accounts to cater for GTP members please let me know as there is only so many PSN/E-mail accounts I can do in 1 day as it is pretty time consuming.


NOTE:

1. Anyone who decides to create these lounges, for it to work you must Load up GT5 on each of the accounts that you create and go via Private Lounge set up and set up the lounges as nobody will be able to join..

2. You must strictly encourage all friends added to your accounts to only join the lounges of the private accounts that you have created if they want to race with others also added to the accounts. A friend Jumping into there own private lounges will only allow racers exclusive to that persons friendslist to join.

3. Again, you will never see these accounts online, they will always be off line, just head to the coffee cup of the lounge you want to join. (you wont see yellow Icon or green dot) that normally suggests the account is online or that members are in the lounge, jus tclick on coffee cup and if people are in the lounge you will see them.

4. Whoever creates the lounges, make sure you add yourself (your PSN) as a friend to the PSN accounts as you wont be able to join the Lounges yourself.

Have fun

 

[RUFin]

"Create say 50 accounts," / Warning,my consol says 'You cant create any more users.Contact your local custom service".Dont know the numbers but it will get you.Now I have only 1 user that works.Im not gonna contact them. XD

 

[t_w_a_h]

For information...

You can only have 16 local accounts at any one time:

http://us.playstation.com/support/answer/index.htm?a_id=166

and you can only associate 64 accounts to an individual PS3 in it's lifetime:

http://us.playstation.com/support/answer/index.htm?a_id=335

You may be able to contact Sony Tech Support to have them remove accounts (but then the account itself will be binned) but expect them to give you some hassle. Perhaps "I bought the PS3 second hand" would be the best way to go if you reach this situation.

 

[PAPPACLART]

For information...

You can only have 16 local accounts at any one time:

http://us.playstation.com/support/answer/index.htm?a_id=166

and you can only associate 64 accounts to an individual PS3 in it's lifetime:

http://us.playstation.com/support/answer/index.htm?a_id=335

You may be able to contact Sony Tech Support to have them remove accounts (but then the account itself will be binned) but expect them to give you some hassle. Perhaps "I bought the PS3 second hand" would be the best way to go if you reach this situation.

Hey Ted how are you? The 64 limit is interesting. I knew about the 16 user limit idea as I already hit that! lol

I don't think anyone person should need to make 64 accounts on a single PS3. At This scale if anybody wanted to create a large number of accounts, then it would be good to arrange something in a group.

PS

I think you can create a PSN account using the PC?

Hi Pappa, it was great meeting/racing you last week. I think I may be able to help create/run some more accounts. I will try to put my idea together in the next day or 2 and send you a PM and/or talk to you on line.

Likewise easy, sorry I could not stay long. I look forward to hearing your ideas, just let me know.

 

[t_w_a_h]

Hey Ted how are you?

Always good mang.

Gotta get some GT500 testing done. Looking forward to some more fun D2 racing.

The 64 limit is interesting. I knew about the 16 user limit idea as I already hit that! lol

I don't think anyone person should need to make 64 accounts on a single PS3. At This scale if anybody wanted to create a large number of accounts, then it would be good to arrange something in a group.

Yes, with a club this could easily be shared amongst several admin.

I think you can create a PSN account using the PC?

The create an account from the web service has been down since the April outage.

https://store.playstation.com/accounts/register/beginNewAccountRegistrationFlow.action

 

[PAPPACLART]

Always good mang.

Gotta get some GT500 testing done. Looking forward to some more fun D2 racing.



Yes, with a club this could easily be shared amongst several admin.



The create an account from the web service has been down since the April outage.

https://store.playstation.com/accounts/register/beginNewAccountRegistrationFlow.action

I noticed that as I tried to do it the other day. It may never come back as for security reasons sony want all acounts to be created on the PS3, so that any acount changes/password/finacial details etc have to be changed only on the PS3 the account was created on.

 

[JDMKING13]

I noticed that as I tried to do it the other day. It may never come back as for security reasons sony want all acounts to be created on the PS3, so that any acount changes/password/finacial details etc have to be changed only on the PS3 the account was created on.

Thanks for all this work man I really appreciate it. I am starting a hardcore league and this format you have come up with is great! 👍

 

[posimosh]

I have seen many folks recommend private lobbies as a means of guaranteeing great racing. There are a few problems with this however and one is not so obvious. Let me explain, Private lobbies from a technical standpoint is similar to if you were to create a public lobby and tick the box "only I may host this lobby". This effectively uses the creator's internet connection for most of the bandwidth and effectively as the server for the game. In private lobbies this is different ut I wont bore you with the explanation. This means that When in a private lobby you as the leader must have a solid connection to all of the players in the lobby whereas while using a public lobby they tend to do a sort of daisy-chain link if a connection to and from two or five or ten players isnt as solid. Now you can say, I have 100megs symmetrical bandwidth allocation which is great but there is both your and your isp's router connected properly? is the upnp on your router "translating" packets properly? is it gracefully shutting and pening ports properly? I doubt it as I set this type of stuff up for a living and I watch wireshark throw errors all day long while on psn and I have industrial strength equipment and connection to the internet. The best thing to do is have a well maintained public lobby and turn audio chat down or off as well as "visable" damage... That being said If you can pull off hosting your own, more power to ya, however if you are having connection problems this is why.

 

[PAPPACLART]

I have seen many folks recommend private lobbies as a means of guaranteeing great racing. There are a few problems with this however and one is not so obvious. Let me explain, Private lobbies from a technical standpoint is similar to if you were to create a public lobby and tick the box "only I may host this lobby". This effectively uses the creator's internet connection for most of the bandwidth and effectively as the server for the game. In private lobbies this is different ut I wont bore you with the explanation. This means that When in a private lobby you as the leader must have a solid connection to all of the players in the lobby whereas while using a public lobby they tend to do a sort of daisy-chain link if a connection to and from two or five or ten players isnt as solid. Now you can say, I have 100megs symmetrical bandwidth allocation which is great but there is both your and your isp's router connected properly? is the upnp on your router "translating" packets properly? is it gracefully shutting and pening ports properly? I doubt it as I set this type of stuff up for a living and I watch wireshark throw errors all day long while on psn and I have industrial strength equipment and connection to the internet. The best thing to do is have a well maintained public lobby and turn audio chat down or off as well as "visable" damage... That being said If you can pull off hosting your own, more power to ya, however if you are having connection problems this is why.

Public lobbies have 2 options.


1: fixed host (1 single host where all lobby participants connect to) (Star Network)

2: Non fixed host ( P2P everybody shares the load of the lobby and connects to eachother. Host is only a dummy host and is the first person people connect to)


Private Lobby there is only 1 option (Mesh Network)

1:Non Fixed host (P2P everybody shares the load of the lobby and connect to each other host is only a dummy host and is the first person people connect to)



You are slightly confused and have it muddled up.

(STAR NETWORK)

Public lounges where there is the option to have a fixed host is great. That person acts as a host while everyone in the room connects to the host only and the host bares the load of the lounge. For the reliability of the lounge and for its ability to accommodate 16 racers, it is very dependent on the fixed hosts connection, more importantly is upload bandwidth. People with a router incompatability with the host will not be able to connect and join the lounge.

With fixed host, people in the lounge only have to connect to this host, rather than making solid connections with everybody else in the room. Using fixed host providing that the host has a solid all round connection will often mean less loading bars/probs for btween others in the room, and less disconnects providing that the bandwith of the host is not exceded byt to many participants in the lounge.

The problems with fixed host if the Host has a problem and gets booted, everyone in lounge gets booted, or if the host decides to leave then again everybody gets booted. Also to accomodate a big lounge, host needs to have big bandwidth.


(MESH NETWORK)

Within the private Lounge, there is no option for a fixed host. (Star Network) we only have the non fixed host option

The first person in the lounge acts as a dummy host. As people join the lounge, the dummy host is the first person that they connect to, but participants also have to reliably connect with other people within the lounge so data transmitions can be shared among all. Within this network everybody has to transmit to each other and the room stability is often dependent on the overall bandwidth of all of the room participants, with the participants with the weakest bandwidth likely to go first in a large lounge.

Most connection issues arise not from bandwidth limitations but of router incompatibility problems between participants of the room. As with this mesh network room participants all have to connect with each other reliably as well as the dummy host and because of different router sets ups/configs etc, sometimes loading bars happen often for particular participants and as a result they can't see or hear each other.

We had some of these problems before and still do from time to time. But we have managed to get most people to set up there routers properly.

There is no problem with hosting large lobbies. Our first race of our GT300 this season had 14 participants and no connection issues or disconnects. Our last race this sunday had 11, and we had one dissconnect prior to the race start. he rejoined and no probs.

I have taken part in 40+ official club races within my lounges, with the majority in full/nearly lounges and have never been disconnected during anyone of those races. I have also had casual races probably in the 1000s all in private loubges and in 1 year been dissconnected less then 15 times. Other members have, don't get me wrong and a couple have more problems then I do, but there are no more disconnects or problems then I see in public lounges.

Within a private lounge using the Mesh Network, when a person can not join the Lounge and gets the "717 cannot connect to host" error". This normaly happens because of router a incompatability issue between the dummy host and the person trying to connect/join.

If the dummy host who has people getting the 717 error was not the host, and the said person joined the lounge, then they would both likely have a "loading Bar" for eachother and would therefor not see or hear each other while in the lounge. It is advisable for people who often have loading bars with other room participants to not be the dummy host of a room as members that they often can't see or can't hear will not be able to join a room if anyone person they normally have loading bars for is the first in the room and acts as dummy host.

Remember, within the above Mesh network nobody is actually the host in the traditional sense. The first in the Private Lounge is the Dummy host, and is only the first person that people connect to as they join the lounge, then they connect to everybody else as they join and the Bandwidth load is shared by all in the lounge.

It is important for any dummy host within a Private Lounge to be somebody that does not often have loading bars for other members. That way, then members wont have problems joining the lounge.

To eliminate/minmise connection issues/loading bars between people in a private lounge, it is important for any people having these problems to set there PS3 to a signle IP, and to put the PS3 into the DMZ, but still despite this some people will always have some kind of issue connecting with soembody else in the room due to router incompatability probs but again these can be mostly resolved if people have there PS3 and router set up properly.

For people who often have loading bars for other, the best way around this is to simply by pass the router and go Nat type 1. This possible for people that do not have a router and modem that is combined, as you can plug the PS3 directly into the modem, going Nat 1 and eliminating the loading bar problem that incompatible/poorly set up roouters cause.

PS

If you look on the forums, there is a better explanation of the above by another member.

 

[PantalonUK]

Thanks for the informative explanation. I knew most if not all of that but still good info for people who arent familiar with how it works.

I was going to say that using private lounges with a good host still makes a massive difference. If anyone opens the lounge first with poor bandwidth you might as well forget it.

 

[PAPPACLART]

No worries Pantalon. No system is perfect though this has worked fantastically well for me over the past 4 months. We have had our fair share of connection issues, and together as a group we have managed to solve the majority, but like any Lounge, private or not, people still have the odd issue from time to time.

The biggest problem is getting people that are added to the accounts to check the lobbies, and certain people are affraid to be the first in a lounge, and don't join becuase of that. If everybody does the same then the lounges will not fill and nobody will see the benefits.

Luckily with my GBRC accounts we have a forum so we can communicate and the majority on the accounts know each other by first name, and members know to head to the lounges if they want to be able to race with others, and people follow. With any new group or member to any accounts that are created this needs to be constantly reiterated so that it is fresh in peoples minds. Once they are used to it then you can lay off. :-)

The lounges have there peaks and flows, and now our GT300 event has finished, everybody is taking a break, while also testing out some of the new games that have been released.

 

[Coxis]

Quick question. Let's say a club member "XKR_JohnDoe5" joins one of these "hosting" PSN accounts lobbies. What if XKR_JohnDoe5 has 3 GT5 friends online, who are not associated to club "XKR" but are nevertheless friends with his XKR PSN account. Can they not go into the "Community" tab from their GT5 home, click on XKR_JohnDoe5, see that he is racing in an online lobby, click on the yellow icon and join the lobby he's in?