Project "open letter" to Polyphony Digital

[porschedrifter]

Ok guys, recently I read a lengthy comment to a recent story about leaked details for GT7Prologue that really moved me. I want to bring it to the attention to other people that may have missed it, because I personally agree with just about all of it.

Let me just introduce myself, I've been a fan of the GT series since I stumbled upon GT3 at a friends house, I instantly became hooked, playing for hours right then and there. I have purchased PS2/PS3/PS4 consoles solely for this title. I've owned GT3, GT4, Tourist Trophy and GT5. GT has become quite a big part of my gaming life. I am very passionate about Gran Turismo and always have been. I sold my PS3 before GT6 was released so I cannot comment on that title, however, I've read quite a few reviews...

This will be forwarded to SONY, the PD team as well as various other people linked to development of GT7.

We have no real official means to open up a dialog with PD about issues and suggestions and I think it's time we make a valid attempt at expressing our love and appreciation, through criticism for their recent titles. (Namely GT5 and GT6)

Please, no bashing or derogatory remarks about anyone in this thread or PD, keep this as professional as possible so we don't have to do much cleanup to present it to PD. So please read the entry below, and submit anything you think was missed or would like to further elaborate on. We need anyone that has some digital contact info that they would like to relay here, so we can start sending this out ASAP. Otherwise I'll be mailing this in letter form via post straight to PD offices.

Here's the main comment that sparked all of this:

by: @w_a_i_n

"The information regarding “Prologue” is true. GT7 won’t be a full game – it’ll land as an evolving game labelled “Prologue”.

Seriously, who in their right mind thought it would ever be anything different? Be honest.

I’m not out of hope just yet, already have my PS4 for GT7 Prologue. But, it’s fading fast and for very real/worrying reasons.

Does current evidence show that GT7 will be any different to the pile of mess that GT6 currently is? I realistically think not. If you take the honest time to look at why GT6 is in such a broken state – then any honest person could come to the same conclusions.

What has broken GT6?

1. SIMULATE EVERYTHING

It doesn’t matter what a feature is. Every single non-essential calculation the game makes takes power away from keeping the game running smoothly. One example, the complex star system. Sure it looks nice, but how much development would that have taken a 5 man team? Many of you are angry because B-Spec isn’t available. Should B-Spec have made the grade first? Sure it should in your minds.

As a dev, I wouldn’t have given a “personal feature”, such as the model star system, priority over something like B-Spec. I also wouldn’t have put stars before any of the important missing features such as the enhanced course designer., etc., etc.

Not only has this screwed with GT6 already, but as Kaz adds yet more personal simulate-everything ideas to future patches and versions of Gran Turismo, he risks making things far worse for the exact same reasons.

Sure, I stand by the fact that this is his “vision” etc., but I think this ideal isn’t workable. Even with the power of a PS4.

Many of my friends have already turned their back on GT6.



I am in complete agreement of modelling the effects of air temperature within calculations for realistic effects regarding HP/Torque. BUT, only when doing so allows the current platform breathing space to run at a locked smooth frame rate.

Surely committing to this insane notion that a PS4 can handle absolutely every single element “simulated” is a crash course? I say this, because it’s already bringing the PS3 to a simulated shuddering mass of uneven frame-rates. Isn’t there a danger of this blind approach taking GT beyond the capabilities of an average spec PC, which is basically what a PS4 is.

2. DO NOT LISTEN TO THE BIGGEST GRIPES OF YOUR FAN-BASE

This list is endless here. But, the one I’m going with is as follows.

Are the crazy number of Asian car “variants” of the same car model (Miata, Impreza, GTR etc) really necessary? With so many car brands still missing from the game, having many models in much smaller numbers would have given PD the time to get late/missing features inside GT on release day. Or more cockpits., etc.

1200 cars obviously creates an automatic issue for GT7 too of course – right? There’s no way on earth they’ll have 1200 “quality” cars ready for day one in GT7-Prologue. Another reason why GT7 will be launched as Prologue. I reckon we’ll be looking at 500 quality cars for GT7, as a maximum for day one content.

Seriously, as nice as GT is – the game has snow-balled into a monster.

There is a single “Triumph” car in the game? From a quite wide choice of models available. Volvo is similar, I think it has 2 cars? Really, all those Fiat 500′s, what’s the point? Stroking a manufacturers ego? Really? The car list is a continued potential disaster, yet again.

GT7 is unlikely to have the features most fans want – for the same reasons as GT6 doesn’t have them. PD has lost their way.

3. SUB-STANDARD CORE ELEMENTS

Sound
Physics

I don’t need to highlight any further core elements. No point. Sound is average, but compared to other titles – PD has been happy to let Gran Turismo fall behind an acceptable standard. This is something they are happy to have allowed themselves to do.

What the devil did they do with the real sounds samples lol? They certainly didn’t include most in the game.



Personally, I am fairly happy with the potential that the physics system has – but again, it needs to up its game.

For all I know, improving the physics-model will require more calculations per frame. This will reduce the available time/space for other non-essential calculations.

What’s next? Heaven forbid we see simulated rolling mist on the hills, a simulated tide at tracks where there is water present, and on, and on…

4. QUALITY ASSURANCE

We are all different.
It is absolutely impossible to please everyone.
Our personal priorities for the GT series can’t ever be the same.

BUT

QA for GT is completely on its arse!
It’s pathetic. A joke.
It’s archaic.

Alone, the lack of QA, or level thereof – has already started the demise of the franchise.

I’m a one-trick pony. I only use driving games. I do not use titles such as GTA, Driver, GRID, or anything written by EA. I’m not knocking any of those franchises, they just don’t cut it with me.

There are so many broken, incomplete, hashed features – and have been for many years – why on earth would fans come to any other conclusion other than, PD don’t value your input, or care.

More than half of my friends have walked away from the GT franchise. Who the hell can blame them. One of my other mates has a condition which effects his vision at times. The crap frame-rate stutter and sustained low-frame-rate experiences in GT6 have forced him to stay away from it in the recent months since he bought it..

But if you are about to try to justify to an almost 50 year old sim/driving fan, that pointing out the negatives with balanced facts is likely to upset Kaz, or PD, then let me prevent you wasting your time/life.

**Your words will fall on deaf ears**

I’m as frustrated at reading your “stop moaning” posts, as you seem to be regarding reading balanced long-term frustration posted here from fans of the series.

I can assure you, your “stick your head up your arse and bury both in the sand” approach isn’t helping push GT forwards! GT6 is as broken today – as GT5 was at launch.

In fact many could argue it has gone backwards.

Do people really think that Kaz will take constructive criticism, and get deflated or wazzed off by it?

Do you actually think he isn’t aware that the sounds are well below standard?
Do you believe he doesn’t know that his work of art can’t hold 23fps much of the time?

For heavens sake, get real. Solid drivers, fans of the series, are walking away from the game for crying out loud. Do you care so little that you brand everyone as “moaners” because they care so much to voice obvious facts?

Are GTP doing enough to convince Kaz that he’s shafting his own franchise? Would he listen regardless? Would GTP be so bold to forcefully suggest it to him? Of course not.

You’ve got Codemasters Racing Studio (cough cough, what a load of plop) asking people how to make a driving game because they’ve alienated people who used to buy the games. They now produce pick up and throw away “garbage”, and obviously sales have slumped. This isn’t new. Or rocket science either.

I’ll promise you now. Day one. If GT7 Prologue lands and doesn’t hold 60fps on PS4 at native 1080 – the box and game will be for sale the very next day. I’m not going to sit by and be happy to let Kaz take my money in one hand, and try to punch me with the other. GT7 and PS4 is the only chance I’ll give PD/Kaz.

I’m really scared for the future of the GT franchise, why on earth would I take comfort from broadcasting this?

Like most of you, I’ve helped make it what it is today.

Maybe, just maybe, Kaz is just doing what he has always done?

It’s his train-set right? He can do what the devil he likes with it. He doesn’t need your opinion thank you very much. Why would he bother to ask your opinions? You’re going to lie to him anyway, too scared to ruffle his feathers…

But gaming has been changing, sure, not so much on the console end – but there are all kinds of funding projects. Kick-start ventures. The shift now is long-term development, continual feedback, polls, open-debate.

GTP is a forum for open debate. It’s not about my view is wrong, yours is perfect. It’s not about my view will upset Kaz, but your kissing his ass has made things so much better in the last 8 years – yeah right. The current state of play on the PC-side is a new operating model.

It makes the cracks in PD’s antiquated business affairs seem downright rude. Ignorant. Out of touch.

Does Kaz even care that my good friends, who have supported his judgement until GT6 will never return to his franchise?

HE DOES NOT.

But he should do!

5. LACK OF FUNDING/UNDER-DEVELOPING

This last entry, it’s not based entirely on facts.

Let’s get one thing clear first…

Most of us (who are not walking away from GT6 at present) will likely:

1. Buy car DLC when it lands
2. Buy track DLC when it lands
3. We’ve probably paid stupid money for a few extra credits with which to buy cars (I have)

Though, for all situations, adding future “missing current features” via patches to GT6 – time is clearly running out, why?

Obviously, I think it’s safe to assume GT7P will land in December to maximize Christmas sales/2014 revenue for Sony/PD.

Whatever new feature/dlc is added first, we’ll only have 8 months left to enjoy it within GT6, before GT7P arrives. Assuming that any missing feature or new DLC arrives before the start of April. Well, 8 months and a week to be more accurate.

Not exactly the best value, but I’m sure we’ll just run with whatever is launched regardless. If Pikes Peak landed tomorrow, I’m sure almost every hardened fan would purchase it.

But – do people on GTP not realise this is the reason why many people are getting more frustrated as time goes by? The longer it takes PD to extract their fingers, the less time we’ll all have to enjoy the missing features/dlc from now until GT7P lands.

If you want to buy a track only to have 3 months use out of it, please, be my guest. We have different standards.

So, if I carry on with assumptions then – I don’t see anything to suggest that PD have funding issues with the money that the GT franchise creates. These assumptions are based on the fact that, if they did have internal funding/revenue issues, it would be all over the press.

So, in this case – development of GT6 would have been in a much more advanced state had PD expanded workforce far beyond current capacity.

Were there say (random figure plucked from the air) 15% more Gran Turismo staff sat on seats at PD, would GT6 have landed on time with:

Better QA results (yes, debateable I know)
B-Spec included
Track Editor Launched
Social/Multiplayer features expanded
More cockpits for std cars
AND ON, AND ON…

There’s no way on earth, PD and the GT franchise can meet many of our future demands continually running on reserve/empty.

If GT6 launched as a more complete successor to the previous title, then DLC would not be delayed, any fixes that did slip through the net would get fixed in a matter of days not weeks., etc, etc.

Is this slotting into place?

My worry is, that PD will approach the next 8 years, as they have done the last 8. How many of your good driving mates will snap? These are great people that the franchise needs to sustain growth. These are people online that wouldn’t ever PUNT you off in a corner, on lap 1, or on lap 101. They have supported Kaz for many years. Not just on PlayStation, but on Vita too.

Is there sadly, any evidence that PD will step up to the mark and future proof themselves? Is there any evidence that PD even accepts that it creates these vast issues from within its own structure? Rotten to the core anyone? Blind? Or just plain stupid?

This is 2014! There is no reason, and certainly no benefit to not communicating with those who fund its GT franchise. Us lot. It’s marketing model is a joke. Social media is a forgotten and under-used medium. Its broken promises are both tiring, expected, and insulting to most.

THE FUTURE?

GT7 Prologue, will be due Dec 2014

If PD/Kaz doesn’t undertake a huge structure change, and break habits of a lifetime so far…

-It’ll be underfunded, otherwise it wouldn’t be GT7 Prologue – it would be finished
-It’ll suffer the exact same QA issue
-Kaz’s “Vision” will likely betray many of us, as he’ll continue to get his priorities wrong
-Like 5 & 6, they’ll code beyond the power of a PS4. It’ll be an awesome looking jerk-fest mess
-We’ll have no clue why PD didn’t add 2 dozen new brands, as they rarely talk to us!
-We’ll lose more GREAT people, due to history repeating itself, especially after forking out for a PS4!

Seriously, GTP should be getting news from PD every 2 weeks about new and exciting stuff for GT6. I know, even writing this comment made me laugh. But Assetto Corsa on PC is in Alpha Phase. This is exactly what they are doing! It’s not rocket science.

Seriously, within the GT franchise – since launch – all that we are mainly getting, is real life “Academy-related” content. Or stuff about Kaz. I bought into a game franchise. It’s what makes me tick. It’s how I choose to relax. The GT-A stuff is a nice “value added”, but not at the expense of being the only news there is from PD. I am certainly not bashing GTP for the news that PD does not create about its franchise.

I hope I’m a long long way off in my theories for the future. Based on facts, trends, PD/Sony behaviour and the results of the titles we’ve all tried to enjoy over the years – I do not think on balance that I am a long way off. I think the writing is on the wall.

The thing that grates me the most is, that EVERY SINGLE broken issue with GT and PD is easily fixed!

In another 2 or 3 months we’ll be seeing GT7P PS4 tech-demo content online from venues around the world!

PS3-GT6 be patient?

Seriously, shove it…

NOTE TO KAZ/PD (of course they won’t see it, I’m wasting my life)

If your game can’t run a full field of cars locked to 60fps @ 1080, do the decent thing and include “draw/opponent” options in GT7 like in modern PC games.

That way, if I have to get 60fps by turning down the field of AI from 14+ to just 7 cars I can!

We’ll lose more GREAT people, due to history repeating itself, especially after forking out for a PS4 and a PSN+ subscription.

Long live the GT franchise, and it's ability to repair/improve.

All the best

Wain
"

PD's Contact Info:
General Information
Entity Name: Polyphony Digital Inc.
Established: April 2nd 1998
Location: [Tokyo Studio]
Yamatane Fukagawa Building No.1 2F
1-1-1 Echujima, Koto-ku
Tokyo
135-0044
[Fukuoka Atelier]
Fukuoka SRP Center Building 5F
2-1-22 Momochihama, Sawara-ku
Fukuoka City
814-0001
[Ueno Atelier]
Ueno TG Building 8F
6-16-22 Ueno, Taito-ku
Tokyo
110-0005
Capital: 10 Million Yen
Employees: Approx. 110
Business Description: Planning and development of game software, and operation of surrounding services
Representative: President Kazunori Yamauchi
Board Members: Kazunori Yamauchi Representative Director
Andrew House Director
Shuhei Yoshida Director
Kiyoshi Akutsu Auditor

 

[ussr]

Dude let it go.

GT series is now in sewers. Purchase different racing game there is plenty for PS3 and Soon probably in October we will all GT fans will be celebrating Gran Turismo Death because Project Cars will literally smash this abandoned series for all eternity.

 

[porschedrifter]

"Let it go" is exactly the wrong type of stance to take.

 

[gtone339]

Well, the fact is "Gran Turismo" is such an ambitious project, that it requires a huge sums of money to be put to good use and requires high levels of talent to work on completing a monumental task.

Not a simple game to make, since their fan-base consists of gamers & car enthusiasts.

My suggestion to P.D/Sony, hire game designers fro America/Europe, or establish a new branch over there, e.g. Polyphony Digital - Europe, Polyphony Digital - America etc.

 

[Tyger]

I think your letter misses the fundamental point that GT7 Prologue is not GT7, it's a slimmed-down preview of it, as has been the case with previous "Prologue" games. The "full" GT7 will follow, though who knows when. For me I don't care for the Prologues and their inherent lack of value for money so am increasingly taking ussr's stance and looking elsewhere (I am a fan of Forza too though yet to be sold on Forza 5 and the Xbone)

I'd hoped that the expected DLC for GT6 would eventually make it a pretty darn good title, but can't help thinking that the comparitively low sales thus far have led to Sony only really wanting to bankroll PD's work on GT7 and not GT6 DLC, which is a huge shame. I guess I am still crossing my fingers that we'll still see some good DLC soon, and further down the line, GT7 will blow everything else out of the water, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[w_a_i_n]

I wonder how many like-minded old gamer's like me, completely "get" why I wrote what I did. Unlike ussr^^ above, who thinks PCars will save the driving genre single-handed. I think there is plenty in GT worth salvaging. I'm not silly enough to think Kaz would agree with me. I'm also not mental enough to think he'd change anything. But if he knew what it would take for me to leave the franchise, and understood my personal reasons - then at least I'd have tried. Can any of us honestly say, that GT6 is an easy game for newcomers to get into. Would we declare that licences/golding events is motivation enough for new people to get their head's around. Does the franchise offer the slower/casual driver satisfaction to place where they do? As much as I love so much about GT6, there's much work to do.

I certainly assume this cause would be futile. How many PD senior staff probably think that some of Kaz's visions will hurt GT in the medium to long-term, but obviously couldn't ever voice that opinion to the guy who writes their pay cheque. Would the press tell him, and risk being blocked out of future press interviews etc. It's called biting the hand. Can his good, create something in a way that could be viewed as bad?

It depends how good you are at thinking outside of the box. Let me have a quick look at a feature I really like. GT Vision. His partners, who to him have helped shape GT into what it is today wanted to be apart of GT Vision. This year we see them show cars IRL, and then allow the cars to be released to us via GT. I loved thrashing the new Toyota around Bathurst to see how fast it was compared to other machinery - real machinery. Toyota have manufactured the GPS data into new cars now, which the recent patch opened up.

But, as cool as this stuff is, due to some of the forces acting internally within PD, this stuff is having an unfortunate side-effect. Manufacturers in a small way are now dictating what we'll see in the form of future patches. How? Even if every one of the future planned GT Vision projects was released via patch and they did not conflict with late feature/fix patches, the GTV work requires much needed man power. We already know how long it takes one person to build a full car. I do not accept on balance, that every single one of the outstanding projects for GT Vision are completed already - and sat waiting for authorisation from the manufacturer. At what expense does GT Vision become more important than fixes/missing features. To Kaz, I'm sure they are paramount. They certainly are really cool, and a first too.

But the Manufacturers are actually shaping the shape/speed of the game we are allowed to play. Which touches one important part of the words that I wrote before. When I say important. I mean important to me, and anyone who shares a similar feeling about it. Had extra staff been drafted in to cover GTV on its own, then this would have zero impact or cost to us. Because work on all those outstanding projects would not affect the speed and pace of the outstanding improvements/enhancements that are being worked on. Not forgetting that each month gone, is one less to enjoy them.

Last month I lost one of my final mates from the GT franchise. He wanted next-gen gfx now, and jumped ship to XB1. Rightly or wrongly. I'm sure in 2 months time he'll be bored silly with so few cars and tracks. What's done is done. Let me say something else, which sounds quite controversial! I always disliked B-Spec. There I said it. It makes no difference to me that the feature is missing. I bought GT to drive the cars and tracks. BUT, I said before I was worried. I still am. This is because, time is likely running out for Kaz. There are huge numbers (dare I say the majority of you) who love B-Spec and miss it deeply. If just 3% of you around the world - walk away in disgust, then Sony is not going to be happy about the resulting lack of revenue that GT7 fails to raise! Bad doodoo.

I continue to hope something can be done, otherwise I wouldn't still own my PS3 - and wouldn't have bought a PS4.

 

[killerjimbag]

I wonder how many like-minded old gamer's like me, completely "get" why I wrote what I did. Unlike ussr^^ above, who thinks PCars will save the driving genre single-handed. I think there is plenty in GT worth salvaging. I'm not silly enough to think Kaz would agree with me. I'm also not mental enough to think he'd change anything. But if he knew what it would take for me to leave the franchise, and understood my personal reasons - then at least I'd have tried. Can any of us honestly say, that GT6 is an easy game for newcomers to get into. Would we declare that licences/golding events is motivation enough for new people to get their head's around. Does the franchise offer the slower/casual driver satisfaction to place where they do? As much as I love so much about GT6, there's much work to do.

I certainly assume this cause would be futile. How many PD senior staff probably think that some of Kaz's visions will hurt GT in the medium to long-term, but obviously couldn't ever voice that opinion to the guy who writes their pay cheque. Would the press tell him, and risk being blocked out of future press interviews etc. It's called biting the hand. Can his good, create something in a way that could be viewed as bad?

It depends how good you are at thinking outside of the box. Let me have a quick look at a feature I really like. GT Vision. His partners, who to him have helped shape GT into what it is today wanted to be apart of GT Vision. This year we see them show cars IRL, and then allow the cars to be released to us via GT. I loved thrashing the new Toyota around Bathurst to see how fast it was compared to other machinery - real machinery. Toyota have manufactured the GPS data into new cars now, which the recent patch opened up.

But, as cool as this stuff is, due to some of the forces acting internally within PD, this stuff is having an unfortunate side-effect. Manufacturers in a small way are now dictating what we'll see in the form of future patches. How? Even if every one of the future planned GT Vision projects was released via patch and they did not conflict with late feature/fix patches, the GTV work requires much needed man power. We already know how long it takes one person to build a full car. I do not accept on balance, that every single one of the outstanding projects for GT Vision are completed already - and sat waiting for authorisation from the manufacturer. At what expense does GT Vision become more important than fixes/missing features. To Kaz, I'm sure they are paramount. They certainly are really cool, and a first too.

But the Manufacturers are actually shaping the shape/speed of the game we are allowed to play. Which touches one important part of the words that I wrote before. When I say important. I mean important to me, and anyone who shares a similar feeling about it. Had extra staff been drafted in to cover GTV on its own, then this would have zero impact or cost to us. Because work on all those outstanding projects would not affect the speed and pace of the outstanding improvements/enhancements that are being worked on. Not forgetting that each month gone, is one less to enjoy them.

Last month I lost one of my final mates from the GT franchise. He wanted next-gen gfx now, and jumped ship to XB1. Rightly or wrongly. I'm sure in 2 months time he'll be bored silly with so few cars and tracks. What's done is done. Let me say something else, which sounds quite controversial! I always disliked B-Spec. There I said it. It makes no difference to me that the feature is missing. I bought GT to drive the cars and tracks. BUT, I said before I was worried. I still am. This is because, time is likely running out for Kaz. There are huge numbers (dare I say the majority of you) who love B-Spec and miss it deeply. If just 3% of you around the world - walk away in disgust, then Sony is not going to be happy about the resulting lack of revenue that GT7 fails to raise! Bad doodoo.

I continue to hope something can be done, otherwise I wouldn't still own my PS3 - and wouldn't have bought a PS4.

Project Cars is the future of Racing/driving games. Sorry, but PD has dropped the ball and it is now going through the uprights.

 

[Sanji Himura]

I disagree. Sure there are issues to be worked out, however the so called even number curse is what really kills the franchise. I will admit that I am one of those who have skipped 6 entirely, but I had a very good reason for that, and it isn't for most of the complaints that everyone is throwing around like a hot potato in the middle of July.

Truth be told, GT6 was released way to close to the launch of the PS4 to really matter to those who were bound and determined to go next gen, and Microsoft simply capitalized on that fact with FM5. Do I think that GT7P will be released eventually? I will actually take you one step further and say that PD will release Prologue and eventually GT7 sooner than we think. Face it, if a lot of resources from GT6 make it into GT7, development would be cut in half, but there would be a long time for QA.

PD isn't stupid. They know that they have to beat the lifetime sales of FM5 in fairly short order if the bosses at Sony are to remain happy. Forza remains one of Gran Turismo's best competitors, and to be honest, no other game would compare to the massive sales that those two franchises have accumulated over their lifetime.

 

[fatkrakr]

I disagree. Sure there are issues to be worked out, however the so called even number curse is what really kills the franchise. I will admit that I am one of those who have skipped 6 entirely, but I had a very good reason for that, and it isn't for most of the complaints that everyone is throwing around like a hot potato in the middle of July.

Truth be told, GT6 was released way to close to the launch of the PS4 to really matter to those who were bound and determined to go next gen, and Microsoft simply capitalized on that fact with FM5. Do I think that GT7P will be released eventually? I will actually take you one step further and say that PD will release Prologue and eventually GT7 sooner than we think. Face it, if a lot of resources from GT6 make it into GT7, development would be cut in half, but there would be a long time for QA.

PD isn't stupid. They know that they have to beat the lifetime sales of FM5 in fairly short order if the bosses at Sony are to remain happy. Forza remains one of Gran Turismo's best competitors, and to be honest, no other game would compare to the massive sales that those two franchises have accumulated over their lifetime.

That last paragraph is what is killing the GT franchise, they don't think they have any other competitor except Forza.

GT is dying because Kaz has moved to other things that are more important to his current state in life. Look at what some of the newest features their announcing for GT are, a data logger than only a very select few can make use of, a recruiting tool to try and find new talent, and most of all advertising for car manufactures newest models.

By the way I believe the days of developers having to pay a car maker to include their cars are either dead or on the fast track out. Its pretty obvious that having your car included in a game is nothing but a benefit for a car maker.

 

[chromatic9]

Is this the right section?

Anyway GT5 sold 11 million against Forza and countless more driving games

your quote
"Like most of you, I’ve helped make it what it is today."

Maybe if we stop buying it they might listen. But listen to who though? One thing I notice on GTP over the years is people wanting this to be some hardcore game.

I do think PS4 will help and GT will improve or get with the times somewhat but maybe not enough to satisfy some. I guess well all want that perfect driving sim but the way it seems is it needs about 5 dev teams to join forces and cost 200-400 million to make.

 

[fatkrakr]

I think what most of us are expecting these days is not to have to choose between "arcade" or "sim" physics, but just car physics. Then be able to choose if we are going to try and "simulate" a race day or just some arcade fun racing.

 

[PletdeKoe]

Not........ Again......... Same......... Story......... All .......... Over........... Again..........

Goes on with his live

 

[ussr]

As much as i want GT7 to be great game even better than all others. It simply won't be. I've seen it already 6 times and i don't want to play another Gran Turismo 6 on PS4 with slightly upscaled graphics. Polyphony seems to enjoy this.

Bu i already know that GT 5 was only GT4 with HD graphics for PS3 with on line mode. Still i was satisfied, but GT6 is GT5 and even poor version of it.

So drop this petition and focus on what's coming for PS4. because Polyphony Digital screwed up at it does not seems like they have either potential or will to improve.

 

[Parker]

As much as i want GT7 to be great game even better than all others. It simply won't be. I've seen it already 6 times and i don't want to play another Gran Turismo 6 on PS4 with slightly upscaled graphics. Polyphony seems to enjoy this.

Bu i already know that GT 5 was only GT4 with HD graphics for PS3 with on line mode. Still i was satisfied, but GT6 is GT5 and even poor version of it.

So drop this petition and focus on what's coming for PS4. because Polyphony Digital screwed up at it does not seems like they have either potential or will to improve.

What game did you play? My copy of Gran Turismo 5 certainly wasn't like that.

 

[Sprite]

The problem you've got with any game and thats the players. GT1 and in some respects GT2 and 3 were Kaz's dream and vision. Since the advent of internet forums, and social media, gamers seem to know better than the developers themselves.

We all want GT to be our vision of a game and its not granted that may of us will all share some similar ideas but the majority dont agree on what the game should be. Now this is all well and good because PD and Sony can ignore the fans and make thier game how they want, its just Kaz seems to have gone off the deep end with all this GT academy stuff and left his team to look after the day to day running of the studio and this has really had a negative impact.

Another problem PD have and thats patching and fixing hacks and bugs. unless it's a game breaking glitch that causes the vast population of GT players to have serious issues why botherfixing it. Stopping people from breaking out of courses; if they want to do this let them. If someone wants to ruin the experiance by glitching billions of credits let them.

PD need to forget GT6 (I have) and concentrate on a winning experiance with GT7. Dont bother with prologue just release a free demo via PSN with 1 or 2 tracks and a few cars so we can see how development is going then its not too much of a distraction to the main development cycle.

my 2Cs

 

[RACECAR]

What game did you play?.

A game called "massive exaggeration".

 

[porschedrifter]

I managed to fall in love with GT5 after over-looking it's issues. I always thought of GT5 as their first next-gen title, biggest overtaking than they've ever done before, first major multiplayer title as well. They had to change, learn and reinvent the wheel I'm sure. I also have a theory that GT6, was at the point that they were too far into development to scrap it, when they found out PS4 was definitely coming out sooner than anticipated. Or, they were under contractual agreement by SONY to do one more for PS3 and had no choice. PD most likely got spread a little thin because they quickly had to put (most of the manpower) to the development of GT7 as well. And it's probably their current mode as we speak.

They know PS4 just came out, they were late in the game for a PS3 release, maybe just maybe, they are trying to do this right and go for the better capable system with better hardware. Maybe GT7's dev. is going at a very fast rate due to the x86 hardware being so much easier to dev on. I just wish they were more open and gave us a play by play of it's development. They really need to have a dev. blog of some sort showing progress. An open beta would greatly help their development as well. Honestly the biggest issue with PD, is their secrecy.

 

[Luminis]

Huh. Interesting. You know, I rarely post on GTP, these days. Let alone in a Gran Turismo related threat.

But this caught my interest. I have to say, I share a fair bit of the thoughts that have been written down by w_a_i_n. I've been with the GT series since its PS1 days. And I stuck with it until about half a year after GT5'S launch. But the whole "gonna trade my PlayStation and GT in" thing happened back then already, for me. Didn't stick around to see GT6 and I am, from what I've been seeing and hearing about it, not regretting doing so. I don't really want to go into the details and specifics, but it essentially boils down to me wanting a game that focuses on driving cars, while GT seems to be all over the place. 11 Million sales aren't a very important factor to my enjoyment of a game, either.

I, for one, would just want them to get the very core of the experience right. All cars looking and sounding somewhat equally good, up-to-date customization, decent support for online racing and leagues. They don't have to offer 1000+ cars to make me happy. I'd rather see a third of that in good quality. Same goes for the features. Drop the track creator and give proper race modifications to all cars instead, for example. Hell, drop both and make all cars sound decent.

However, PD isn't going to listen. And why would they? The GT games sell based on the badge of the cover alone - and by the fact that they habe little competition. So, who cares? Kaz? Don't think so. I'll be honest, I wouldn't give a damn about the game if I was in his place and spend my time with whatever I want to do. I kissed the GT franchise good bye. I'd go back to it as soon as they do get the things that matter to me right. If it means buying a PS4, yeah, why not. However, with stuff like simulated stars and whatever being added to the game, I can't see them focusing on anything. They'll keep adding all sorts of features to the game that have very little to do with driving and be done with it.

PD will be forced by Sony to re-evaluate their course of action if a GT game drops severly in terms of sales. I've not been paying a lot of attention, but GT6 seems to fall short of GT5 in terms of sales. They'll just write that off as the effects of the PS4's launch and continue with business as usual, though. There'll be enough people buying the game and kissing Kaz's butt, either way. If GT7 drops in sales again, yeah, they might scratch their heads a little, sit down, and think. I at least hope so. Might helpt to make the GT franchise worth coming back to, with GT8 in 2021 or something.

 

[Johnnypenso]

PD will be forced by Sony to re-evaluate their course of action if a GT game drops severly in terms of sales. I've not been paying a lot of attention, but GT6 seems to fall short of GT5 in terms of sales. They'll just write that off as the effects of the PS4's launch and continue with business as usual, though. There'll be enough people buying the game and kissing Kaz's butt, either way. If GT7 drops in sales again, yeah, they might scratch their heads a little, sit down, and think. I at least hope so. Might helpt to make the GT franchise worth coming back to, with GT8 in 2021 or something.

If VGChartz is anywhere close to accurate, GT6 is a sales catastrophe. You can't just "write off" a 66% decline in sales, something has to give, whether it's budget considerations for the next game, possible changes to the power structure at PD and Sony, declining influence and status of Kaz at Sony etc. etc. etc. You're only as good as your last product, Sony doesn't give a crap how many units GT5 sold that's ancient history. They are shaking in their boots at both PD and Sony over GT6's abysmal sales record, bet on it.

 

[Luminis]

Well, let's hope so. I could see a lot of excuses being made as to why GT6 didn't sell well. If someone at Sony really doesn't give a damn and demands things to be revisitted, that can only be a good thing, though.

 

[Sanji Himura]

The issue is, @Johnnypenso, is that how much of the 66% of the decline is people actually leaving the series compared to how many just skipped the game in favor of buying a PS4 like I did.

That is the whole problem with all of the charts and graphs that are out there. They never give any perspective to the data. We need GT7's data before any sort of conclusions can be reached. Can Sony patch things short term, sure, but we need more data from the next game before we can affirmatively say that interest in the series has waned.

 

[MaDHaX]

Nice thread here porschdrifter 👍

This is feedback, weather PD/SONY like it or not the gripes of more and more players is starting to show, why because of so much problems with GT6.

I am one of those people on the verge of leaving the PD franchise for good but am holding on to my PS3 and GT6 just waiting for a patch to fix the pit glitch which effects quite a number of thing's to do with driving the car.

Having been with GT since GT1 and have bought into every GT since then including Tourist Trophy. Been fairly happy with GT5 to keep me there for 2 years but GT5 was kind of a let down to me in alot of ways, (too many to list here, but there is a thread that I made with some idea's that would bring back player's). Many of my friends have not bought GT6 because they was let down by 5 and wanted to wait and see what happen's with 6. I on the other hand had hope for GT6 and still giving PD/SONY a chance to fix up before I decide buying a PS4 and GT7.

Last year I built a gaming PC because I just love driving on wheel and since the change from pad to wheel I have wanted more realism, GT is great in force feedback but as for realism the sound and the lack of a good clutch feel is known in the wide sim community. If you are a pad player then why not go the forza route? if it is a wheel experience that you favour then deffinetely the PS3 GT5/6 combo would be a better route to take, but forking out more money on PS4 and GT7 not even knowing if my current wheel will be compatible for the new system is a problem.

Everyone has to upgrade to the next gen if they want to experience FM5 or GT7 but if you have to fork out for a new wheel + console + game + dlc, then I think you should all have a little re-think of the PC option, why? Because it is still like a console, you can still play most of the mainstream games if you wish on pad, and the best driving sim's without a doubt are on PC. With a PC there is an open playing ground, especially if you're the D.I.Y kind of person and can change computer component's. PC route will not let down any driving enthusiast, there are so many driving sim's or even arcade type driving games, it's all there.

Also the creator of Forza, Dan Greenawalt was asked recently in an interview with Darin Gangi from inside sim racing, weather there is a possiblity of a PC version of Forza. His answer was "quite possibly, watch this space."

I wonder how PD/Kaz would respond to that same question?

 

[Luminis]

The issue is, @Johnnypenso, is that how much of the 66% of the decline is people actually leaving the series compared to how many just skipped the game in favor of buying a PS4 like I did.

See, that's exactly what I was talking about. Whether people are skipping GT6 is actually backlash from GT5, solely due to how GT6 turned out itself or just because people went next gen - it's hard to tell. And while I'm fairly willing to believe that the next gen consoles aren't the sole reason for the lower sales, but you bet that Kaz is going to cling to that believe, no matter what. We'll see properly simulated wind-swept grass in GT7 before PD's going to adress, say, the sound of the cars. Partially because doing so would basically mean admitting that the sounds were flawed previously, as opposed to being "too realistic" or "too accurate".

Also the creator of Forza, Dan Greenwalte was asked recently in an interview with Darin Gangi from inside sim racing, weather there is a possiblity of a PC version of forza. His answer was "quite possibly, watch this space."

Ho ho hold the heck up! Forza for PC?! I think I'll have to change my boxers real quick. If that ever came to be, yeah, I'm gonna be one happy camper. Given that MS said that they'd like to focus more on PC gaming, the not-so-impressive sales of XB1 and their desire to recoup R&D-costs for Forza, it would indeed make sense.

 

[thehobnob97]

I think that Grid Autosport will be an interesting competitor to GT6 in the summer. In fact, I only really got my PS3 for GT and I feel that GT7 will be the biggest test of the GT franchise.

 

[Johnnypenso]

The issue is, @Johnnypenso, is that how much of the 66% of the decline is people actually leaving the series compared to how many just skipped the game in favor of buying a PS4 like I did.

That is the whole problem with all of the charts and graphs that are out there. They never give any perspective to the data. We need GT7's data before any sort of conclusions can be reached. Can Sony patch things short term, sure, but we need more data from the next game before we can affirmatively say that interest in the series has waned.

We'll never know the answer to that of course but we can do some extrapolation.

1. Anecdotal evidence but many, many, many long term fans have posted in these forums expressing their dissatisfaction of the series. This level of anger and disappointment is unprecedented in GT history.

2. Only about 1/7 console owners bought a copy of GT5. If you can project that onto PS4 sales and assume not a single PS4 owner left their PS3 up and running, then you're talking about less than 1 million sales lost to new PS4 owners. Sales are down 3 million+ units.

3. The game got mediocre reviews, worst in series history and to the casual consumer it's probably not much different from GT5 but for a few cars and tracks.

 

[porschedrifter]

Well, not sure how far this is going to go, but I forwarded this thread to Gran Turismo's official facebook page and received a reply: "Thanks for your support, Demoncamber. We welcome fan feedback and are constantly compiling and passing feedback along to the developers."

 

[Sanji Himura]

We'll never know the answer to that of course but we can do some extrapolation.

1. Anecdotal evidence but many, many, many long term fans have posted in these forums expressing their dissatisfaction of the series. This level of anger and disappointment is unprecedented in GT history.

2. Only about 1/7 console owners bought a copy of GT5. If you can project that onto PS4 sales and assume not a single PS4 owner left their PS3 up and running, then you're talking about less than 1 million sales lost to new PS4 owners. Sales are down 3 million+ units.

3. The game got mediocre reviews, worst in series history and to the casual consumer it's probably not much different from GT5 but for a few cars and tracks.

That much is true, however, you can't accurately say, like some people are, that the GT franchise is dead and move on to the PC or to the XBO. It's not. Having a rough time, sure I will give you that, but dead, no. Even if we take VGChartz word as gospel, there is roughly 33% from game to game that still enjoy it enough to stick by it for one reason or another when there are plenty of other games out there that would better suit the "Sim" community.

Where do I stand on the issue? I have always long thought GT as a sim that is strong on the arcade influences. Does that mean that I expect pitch perfect exhaust sound coming from my TV speakers, no. That is because that I know that a game of this caliber, no matter how it is advertised, can deliver that sound, nor do I want them to try. GT is a first of its kind.

 

[Johnnypenso]

That much is true, however, you can't accurately say, like some people are, that the GT franchise is dead and move on to the PC or to the XBO. It's not. Having a rough time, sure I will give you that, but dead, no. Even if we take VGChartz word as gospel, there is roughly 33% from game to game that still enjoy it enough to stick by it for one reason or another when there are plenty of other games out there that would better suit the "Sim" community.

Where do I stand on the issue? I have always long thought GT as a sim that is strong on the arcade influences. Does that mean that I expect pitch perfect exhaust sound coming from my TV speakers, no. That is because that I know that a game of this caliber, no matter how it is advertised, can deliver that sound, nor do I want them to try. GT is a first of its kind.

I don't think people realize what a total disaster the sales are for this game. The entire franchise, the budgeting, the marketing, everything is based around the predictable revenue stream that 10 million units brings. They have less than a third of that money to work with. In any business that's a catastrophe not a rough time.

The other games you refer to have high barriers to entry. Xbone + Forza + New wheel is $1000. A good gaming PC also $1000+. That alone will prevent most people that want to switch from doing so. That won't be the case with GT7 though as both PCars and DriveClub and who knows what else will be available on the same platform.

Is it dead? No. Is it in trouble? Most definitely. You don't lose 2/3 of your sales and just keep pumping out $60 Million budgeted titles.

 

[Luminis]

but dead, no.

Who said that? What we've been pondering is the question whether losing round about two thirds of their sales would make PD think. Big difference.

GT is a first of its kind.

It may have been, in 1997. It's the sixth of its kind, not counting several spinoffs or any of its competitors. Really, how is GT6 the first of its kind?

The thing is, GT could probably simulate sounds better. If PD was to focus on it, instead of adding other, in my opinion, less important features. This is why some folks are hoping that they're starting to think. You know, re-evaluate their priorities. If fan feedback is ever to land on fertile ground, it's probably now. As I said, if they're actually making the connection between the plumetting sales and whatever fan feedback they're receiving.

 

[Sanji Himura]

You missed my point. Yes, we all agree that it is in trouble, but what is the fix for this issue? Obviously a bigger budget won't help PD themselves, as they would put in more cars into the game, and us yelling at them won't solve the issue either.

The end all solution then? If a bigger budget won't help, and us yelling at them won't solve anything either, the problem firmly lies with Sony's management. I have quoted people in the Japanese gaming industry before about how seniority in each developer/publisher works, and I will say it again. If you sing the company song and dance, you would likely stick around no matter how bad the results of your games are.

Obviously it has reached that point for Kaz and PD.