PS4... Is this our issue?

[Flash_Noddy]

It would be winning if they just fixed the really bad bugs. It's frustrating cos other than that it's a great game.

 

[VBR]

In business terms it means if a product is failing then do not support it, let it fail. If a product is winning then support it more.

I see. So, what you're saying is that SMS's lack of support for console users is an admission on their part that Project CARS is failing?

 

[twitcher]

I see. So, what you're saying is that SMS's lack of support for console users is an admission on their part that Project CARS is failing?

At least on console, I would probably say yes. Not going off sales, but judging by activity in the online lobby.

It really sucks, because when this game launched, within the first week or so, there was a handful of us making posts saying, “holy crap this online is faulty as hell, I sure hope they fix it asap otherwise the online community will go into a tale spin it will never recover from.” Many of us got told we were wrong, the game was working fine, the next patch would fix everything....the usual crap. Aaaaand now here we are.

Not saying that sms fixing online services could have saved pc2, maybe it was doomed to fail no matter what due to the sim racer community being very small on console. At the same time though, fixing things wouldn’t have hurt, especially at a time when PC was going head to head with GTS

I said it back then, and I stand by it. Trying to rush the game to beat GTS to shelved was a mistake. They should have waited until after GTS, and then pick up all the people who were disappointed with it.

 

[Furinkazen]

I'll quote Ian Bell on a facebook post complaining about the LM pack:

"There is nothing wrong with this DLC".

Attitude like this that is completely wrong for someone to have - if you don't listen to the communities VALID concerns and criticisms and don't change anything in the smug belief that your product is already perfect, then you're on a road to failure.

 

[VBR]

I'll quote Ian Bell on a facebook post complaining about the LM pack:

"There is nothing wrong with this DLC".

Attitude like this that is completely wrong for someone to have - if you don't listen to the communities VALID concerns and criticisms and don't change anything in the smug belief that your product is already perfect, then you're on a road to failure.

That quote doesn't surprise me. On page 16 of the bug report thread, & after 15 pages of people reporting various bugs & issues, he said this:

"The worst bugs are already fixed. There were 5 of them. Coming soon in a patch with the more minor issues mostly fixed also." Link.

He's only posted one thing on GT Planet this year so far, & that was to promote his mobile game. He only seems to come on here to hype up his games to get sales, & I'm not falling for it again. Once bitten, twice shy. I didn't buy the second offering after getting the first Project BUGS game & becoming seriously frustrated with it & SMS. Such a shame, as it has soooooooooooooooooooooooooo much potential.

 

[The_American]

I see. So, what you're saying is that SMS's lack of support for console users is an admission on their part that Project CARS is failing?

Or less harshly, if it had more early commercial success then they could justify increased investment and support. Let's see how the year goes.

 

[Morgoth_666]

And here I was, thinking that multi-platform releases always sold more console units than PC, even if the console port was utter crap. On Steam it usually seems to peak at about 1500-1800 people playing per day, so somebody is at least playing offline or online, but not that many. Not sure you can easily find such numbers for consoles.

 

[Sick Cylinder]

And here I was, thinking that multi-platform releases always sold more console units than PC, even if the console port was utter crap. On Steam it usually seems to peak at about 1500-1800 people playing per day, so somebody is at least playing offline or online, but not that many. Not sure you can easily find such numbers for consoles.

Yes - I assumed that as well, because surely the number of people who play racing games on PC's is very small. I think the number who play such games on consoles with a wheel is also very small, but I always assumed that the numbers playing on console with a controller was relatively large.

The low numbers playing online may also be because traditionally most people play offline - GTS may have changed that pattern and forced people into online play, but I'm sure I read in the past that only about 1% of players ever ventured online.

Personally I love Project Cars, play online on PS4 and very much hope that SMS continue to improve the game!

 

[simsimsheree]

Hey. If you want a developer to listen to your suggestions, you've got to stop slagging them off. I've noticed this in the final paragraph especially but it has appeared in other parts. These comments add nothing to the discussion and possibly prevents your discussion from taking place. Sometimes, your posts are actually an interesting read with interesting suggestions. But slagging the developer off just turns me off it. Imagine how a developer feels when I'm frustrated by it.

Another example.

I sincerely hope that in your professional career, if you screw up monumentally and cause your product to be a failure, you decide it's more important to actually fix your screwup than sit on your backsides until your customers kiss your 🤬. But from this post, I rather doubt it. I look forward to ordering my fries from you one day at a drive-through if that's how you think the business world works.

SMS didn't give PC2 away. WE PAID FOR IT... If a developer is unwilling to rectify his mistakes because the criticism of them isn't couched in velvety tones, he's an idiot destined for the unemployment line. There's no 'passive' in this aggression... Tens of thousands of us paid for a game that, on consoles, is crippled by a bad port of the online lobby system. I want it fixed. Believe me, there's enough people like you that have tried the 🤬 kissing to no avail. Time for something different...

SMS's lobby system has been 'politely' criticized since PC1 launched. But tell us again how not criticizing their fragile egos will fix it. Yeah, right.

PC2 is dying on consoles by mistakes SMS made, and refuse to fix. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[hoodrich902]

View attachment 747062

Note the upper left corner. 208 online lobbies. I've never seen more than 20-30 on PS4. Usually with only a handful or so with more than 5 cars in them.

This might have a lot to do with why PC players seem content and fail to understand the issues that seem so important to console players. With such a tiny player base by comparison, finding a clean room in the console lobby, especially now SMS removed the last defense against trolls by nixing host kick options, is getting close to impossible.

Anyone trying to delude themselves that all is good on the console side needs to see this. The player base is available, GTS and Forza sport numbers that dwarf this. But SMS don't want to go after them (or at least their every decision on how to design their online multiplayer system has worked actively against it).

Perhaps if more of us understood the huge gap between the console players and the PC ones, we might at last understand how important it is to make the transition from GT or Forza to PC more console friendly..?

BTW, note the room names.

I think the problem is that the online lobbies are too stale. There is no ranking in online lobbies people are forced to play sport mode if they want to rank up. We also need better tracks I am sick of the Nurburgring. People want to race there all the time.

There should actually be legit racing teams online. You should be able to get like minded players together setup races. There should be doubles ladders and triple ladders. There should br gr.3 cars and gr.4 cars racing at the same time but the races ending based on what class you chose.

There isn't any real competitive racing online. PD doesnt seem to care either for instance there is no dragstrip but there are drag lobbies, we have no race modes dedicated to drifting but we have drift lobbies. We have car shows in lobbies but no dedicated spaces online to show off cars can we get a cool parking lot like the ones on scape mode.

Another flaw is communication there is no open mic and there are no forums within the game. It's just a barren wasteland in the open lobby section.

 

[jake2013guy]

I sincerely hope that in your professional career, if you screw up monumentally and cause your product to be a failure, you decide it's more important to actually fix your screwup than sit on your backsides until your customers kiss your 🤬. But from this post, I rather doubt it. I look forward to ordering my fries from you one day at a drive-through if that's how you think the business world works.

You clearly didn't read my post. If you have a reading comprehension of that skill level, you'd be sacked for reading the wrong order too many times. I didn't have a problem with you criticising things within the game. I was fed up of you slagging the developers off unnecessarily.

SMS's lobby system has been 'politely' criticized since PC1 launched. But tell us again how not criticizing their fragile egos will fix it. Yeah, right.

I never said it will. I said there's a higher chance they'd actually listen to you than if you slag them off unnecessarily.

refuse to fix.

Things like this is what I'm fed up with. You can criticise all you like. I have my criticisms as well. I just don't accuse them of being lazy because that adds nothing.

 

[simsimsheree]

Doing what you have done has added nothing, either.

I have no trouble understanding EXACTLY what you said. But your arbitrary decision about what is 'necessary' and what isn't is hubris of the highest order. What has been done so far hasn't achieved squat. It appears only too obvious that more is necessary.

After nearly a year, and major flaws unfixed (many of them ported directly from PC1), it is hard to understand your sympathy for the developers. Call it laziness, call it incompetence, call it apathy, call it greed. I'm pretty sure you would find any of those descriptions 'unnecessary'. But when other games don't suffer those flaws, how would you excuse it? It obviously isn't 'too hard'.

There is direct and contradictory evidence that 'polite' criticism has achieved nothing. So much for your 'higher chance'.

 

[jake2013guy]

Doing what you have done has added nothing, either.

I have no trouble understanding EXACTLY what you said. But your arbitrary decision about what is 'necessary' and what isn't is hubris of the highest order. What has been done so far hasn't achieved squat. It appears only too obvious that more is necessary.

After nearly a year, and major flaws unfixed (many of them ported directly from PC1), it is hard to understand your sympathy for the developers. Call it laziness, call it incompetence, call it apathy, call it greed. I'm pretty sure you would find any of those descriptions 'unnecessary'. But when other games don't suffer those flaws, how would you excuse it? It obviously isn't 'too hard'.

There is direct and contradictory evidence that 'polite' criticism has achieved nothing. So much for your 'higher chance'.

Oh bore off. Keep hurling abuse at developers and see how many respond to it. If I were a developer, I wouldn't bother reading something where I'm slagged off all the time. It's just human nature. Don't abuse them, they might listen to you.

Thanks for the unnecessary formatting. It really helped understand your post.

Note: The italics are for sarcasm as has been used many times. Underlining single words make no sense.

 

[simsimsheree]

You are entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to phrase it any way the AUP allows. But I have bad news...

So am I.

If you were a developer, you wouldn't be here at all. Far too thin skinned.

 

[Wolfe]

Knock off the personal attacks on someone who doesn't represent SMS over something so dumb.

The point is simple. SMS has already demonstrated a lack of patience for harsh criticism...so what on Earth do you expect to achieve with harsher criticism? That's not excusing them for anything. It's acknowledging the plain fact that bitching at them isn't going to accomplish anything. They clearly won't tolerate it. That's the advice you've been given, and you're just spitting on the guy explaining the obvious.

The "unnecessary" bit is the time you'll waste trying to shout down a brick wall. @jake2013guy is only suggesting you spare yourself the effort if that's how you're going to go about it.

 

[jake2013guy]

If you were a developer, you wouldn't be here at all. Far too thin skinned.

I'm here already so clearly I enjoy GTP enough and that would not change regardless of my employment. Yes, my employment may limit me from saying some things but that would be expected.

Knock off the personal attacks on someone who doesn't represent SMS over something so dumb.

The point is simple. SMS has already demonstrated a lack of patience for harsh criticism...so what on Earth do you expect to achieve with harsher criticism? That's not excusing them for anything. It's acknowledging the plain fact that bitching at them isn't going to accomplish anything. They clearly won't tolerate it. That's the advice you've been given, and you're just spitting on the guy explaining the obvious.

The "unnecessary" bit is the time you'll waste trying to shout down a brick wall. @jake2013guy is only suggesting you spare yourself the effort if that's how you're going to go about it.

Exactly this. Nobody wants to read anything when somebody is accusing them of something they'd never do or act like. If I did the same way towards you, would you appreciate it? I doubt you would.

 

[simsimsheree]

I'm looking forward to your tales of an oil change store that failed to do the job properly, blew up your car, and then refused to talk to you after you went in somewhat politely and got no satisfaction. Then you went in somewhat more irate and got no satisfaction. Then went in mad as hell and got no satisfaction.

That would be a great story, bro...

 

[jake2013guy]

I'm looking forward to your tales of an oil change store that failed to do the job properly, blew up your car, and then refused to talk to you after you went in somewhat politely and got no satisfaction. Then you went in somewhat more irate and got no satisfaction. Then went in mad as hell and got no satisfaction.

That would be a great story, bro...

You know what else would be a great story. When you continue the same topic. I started by suggesting you didn't hurl abuse at people.

I'd love to see you go to a customer service desk making snide comments about the people who work at the business every time and expect them to treat you the same as somebody who understands that mistakes happens and doesn't rant about it every 3 minutes of the day. Good luck getting the "benefit of the doubt" sometimes if you do that as well.

 

[simsimsheree]

Show me anywhere you got 'the benefit of the doubt' from the devs.

Truth is, we both know perfectly well the devs (or the guys who just blew up your engine with a 'mistake' that other oil change places don't make) don't intend to do a damn thing whether you phrase it politely or rant. So, why not rant?

Some people bay at the moon, other people bite the pillow and mutter under their breath. They both get the same result, apparently. I'd rather bay at the moon.

You know what else would be a good story? You, learning that it isn't your place here to tell people what they can and can't post. I find it interesting you aren't as concerned with politeness when it comes to your fellow players. Just the devs. Friends of yours?

 

[jake2013guy]

You know what else would be a good story? You, learning that it isn't your place here to tell people what they can and can't post. I find it interesting you aren't as concerned with politeness when it comes to your fellow players. Just the devs. Friends of yours?

Oh bore off. I never said you can't post anything. I'm not a mod. I was simply suggesting that maybe you could post whatever you post without the snide comments.

I find it interesting you aren't as concerned with politeness when it comes to your fellow players.

If you think anything I've said is impolite, maybe you have that thin-skin that you accuse everyone else of. Nice to think that you think I have friends.


Anyway. This is garbage. I'm out. Have fun talking to yourself from now on.

 

[Wolfe]

Some people bay at the moon, other people bite the pillow and mutter under their breath. They both get the same result, apparently. I'd rather bay at the moon.

Or you could not lean on a game or its developer to provide you with something you already know they can't or won't provide, and do neither of the above. Like changing your own oil, it isn't hard.

Having dropped or temporarily backed off from my share of game franchises over the years, I can tell you what gets results: patience, or playing something else. Sometimes they come around. Usually someone else will make something better (eventually). Vote with your wallet. Unless a game dev is exceptionally receptive to the community, that's all there is to do. That's life.

 

[Mr Tree]

I'm looking forward to your tales of an oil change store that failed to do the job properly, blew up your car, and then refused to talk to you after you went in somewhat politely and got no satisfaction. Then you went in somewhat more irate and got no satisfaction. Then went in mad as hell and got no satisfaction.

That would be a great story, bro...

Your oil change analogy is very flawed. What would be a closer analogy of the oil change is when you play pC2 it blows up your ps4 and the devs ignore it.

Now to be more productive, what issues do you have with the game that are making the game unplayable (you know like that car with the blown up engine in your analogy)

Once we've established your main issues we could advice you on how to work around them or what game would be better suited.
That doesn't mean you can't be dissappointed but from my current perspective you're acting as if you bought a car, dislike how it has some flaws in the UI of the integrated gps and now say the car is undrivable and depand they fix it NOW.

If not please explain why I'm wrong. Bear in mind I want to try and help you if I can.

 

[Chikane_GTR]

Your oil change analogy is very flawed. What would be a closer analogy of the oil change is when you play pC2 it blows up your ps4 and the devs ignore it.

Now to be more productive, what issues do you have with the game that are making the game unplayable (you know like that car with the blown up engine in your analogy)

Once we've established your main issues we could advice you on how to work around them or what game would be better suited.
That doesn't mean you can't be dissappointed but from my current perspective you're acting as if you bought a car, dislike how it has some flaws in the UI of the integrated gps and now say the car is undrivable and depand they fix it NOW.

If not please explain why I'm wrong. Bear in mind I want to try and help you if I can.

Mr Tree what i have gather from simsimsheree is that his two biggest problems with the game are?

1. Bugs
2. The fact one cant name online rooms on consoles so its hard to find a room of clean racing.

 

[VBR]

Mr Tree what i have gather from simsimsheree is that his two biggest problems with the game are?

1. Bugs
2. The fact one cant name online rooms on consoles so its hard to find a room of clean racing.

3. The fact that hosts can't kick bad drivers out of the room so as to facilitate clean racing.

4. The fact that bad drivers can't be permanently blocked from entering all future lobbies a player hosts.


I'm sure there are a lot more...

 

[Mr Tree]

Mr Tree what i have gather from simsimsheree is that his two biggest problems with the game are?

1. Bugs
2. The fact one cant name online rooms on consoles so its hard to find a room of clean racing.

I think you don't fully agree with sim so this is more towards hip making your statement (I hope I'm lot strawmanning him)
1. Bugs, that's a very concrete description of the issue, what bugs are bugging you sim?

2. I find it a design flaw it certainly isn't a bug an even more so is not analogous with his oil change made my engine blow up analogy.

3. The fact that hosts can't kick bad drivers out of the room so as to facilitate clean racing.

4. The fact that bad drivers can't be permanently blocked from entering all future lobbies a player hosts.


I'm sure there are a lot more...

3. I prefer the 'host is dictator' approach but again no bug nor mistake. There are cases to be made for both systems.
My second objection is the conclusion you draw about the effects of said design choice. I have clean racing in open lobbies on a semi daily basis. Hosting a lobby is work hosting a clean one that is. Add clean drivers joining your lobby and build an army to have larger numbers to kick. If I as a host votr to kick someone often the room just follows and geuss what he's kicked.

4. Well again not a bug, but I would love this feature as I have to kick the same guy joining my lobbies fairly regularly.

So while I would prefer point 2, 3 and 4 to be like you (or sim) want it, they most clearly aren't bugs and they sure as hell don't mean you can't have clean random lobbies.

And VBR I have no idea if you agree with sim or not. If you have issues finding nice lobbies just add me on ps4.

 

[Chikane_GTR]

Well my reply wasn't base on rather i agree or not agree with him i don't have a problem with simsimsheree it was base on what i normally see him post on every thread

Of course i missed some which VBR covered.

 

[VBR]

Mr Tree what i have gather from simsimsheree is that his two biggest problems with the game are?

I prefer the 'host is dictator' approach but again no bug nor mistake....4. Well again not a bug...they most clearly aren't bugs...If you have issues finding nice lobbies just add me on ps4.

I never said or implied that they were bugs. @Chikane mentioned a few problems sim was having, & that framed the context of my reply. Thanks for the invitation to race, however, I don't own PC2, & after the absolute mess that was PC1 at launch I have no plans to get it either.

 

[simsimsheree]

1) Bugs. A War and Peace length list of them, still unfixed. Check Asturbo's thread at PC2's forum. Bugs that make you question almost every aspect of the game. Grip different from practice to race? You probably got the bug that loaded a different setup into your car without you knowing. Or, if online, you may have got the bug where Livetrack works differently between sessions and between drivers. Rain starting? I bet you'll enjoy the bug of watching your pit crew put wets on your car, head out, and have the telemetry (and your pirouetting car!) now inform you you have slicks on. Rinse and repeat, ad nauseam... Add to this that every update seems to add some new ones in for the few they fix and the devs have dropped (since v4) any pretense of detailed notes about the bugfix, leading to several weeks of confusion about what is fixed, what hasn't, what is placebo effect, and what is newly added.

But hey, making games is HARD, right? Why should we expect the same level of competence we get from other games? Of all the racing games I've ever played, PC2 has the most bugs, the longest list of longstanding unfixed bugs, and the highest rate of addition of new bugs every update. If this were the same for all racing games, I'd be a lot more tolerant. Maybe making games would be hard. But they don't. Hard to pin this on anybody other than the devs.

2) Console online lobby design. Completely different to the PC version. Yes, no room titles. No total rooms online count. No consistent way of loading a different set of 20 room if there are more than the 20 limit. No way to sort by rating. No way to sort by default setup. Full rooms disappear. Basically, if you wanted to design a lobby system that fractured and frustrated your player base, you could do no better job. The one example of excellence in the game, LOL

3) No host kick. Once there was. Now there isn't. I rather doubt anyone happy with the way things are now were unhappy before. I read such a pile of complacency here, daily. The removal of host kick was a sloppy, poorly thought out quick fix to an issue that barely affected anyone at all (hosts kicking to gain points) that was easily solved by removing the points penalty for being kicked and subsequent gain to the host and those remaining in a room. That was the correct solution to the problem. The inept solution adopted by SMS was the easiest, as long as you don't give a rats what you do to casual racing rooms. Anyone care to defend this? Lengthy complaints threads about it at PC2's forum suggest, if you can, you are in the minority. This issue shows how utterly divorced from any idea of what makes a good racing game SMS are.

4) Any pretense of BoP in any Group other than those already carefully BoP'd in real life. Yes, sure, present the cars at their original specs in all groups. But this is a racing game. It needs a BoP offset for all the Groups, so that many of the classes can be enjoyed without them turning into an essentially 'one make' or sayonara to any expectation of a real race. You put any group of cars together to race on a regular basis in real life, and they will quickly figure out a BoP system. But no, not SMS. Even lowly GTS isn't dumb enough to think that people will want to race a car group where 75% of the cars they modeled don't stand a chance. But SMS are.

There's a reason so many rooms are GT3 or GTE. And that reason is BoP. It is long past time SMS adopted a system to make the splendid car list actually usable for racing. This isn't a 'driving' simulator. It's a racing simulator. And you can't race many of the cars.

5) Console replays limited to sprint distances only. You can't steward a room if you can't use a reply (the view from your car only is useless). This is an issue going back to PC1, still completely unaddressed (barely acknowledged), and it boils down to SMS being to lazy to code the console port of the PC game, which has no cloud limitations (or does have local saves, I'm not sure which) differently. You get (iirc) about 1GB for your total cloud save on console, which includes setups, replays, pictures, everything. It isn't enough. SMS knew from PC1 it wasn't enough, but went ahead without a local save in PC2 with the full knowledge that replay detail was even higher and basically halved the save time of PC1. It isn't a case of the console being incapable (GTS replays can be as long as you like). It is a case of the devs not caring enough...

The reason I hold SMS in such scorn is, they have a perfectly good example of how to do things nearly perfectly. But in their hubris, or ineptitude, they decided that, along with making a game with more realism in the physics, tire model and adherence to the sport, they would drop everything that made GTS the industry leader it is.

Players (in numbers that SMS can only have wet dreams about!) don't play GTS because it's easy to drive. They play it because it is easy to play. Easy to find others with the same skills and tastes as them. Easy to select a bunch of different cars even in non-regulated Groups and have a close race. Easy to police rooms to their tastes from demolition derby to full league clean. Easy to watch a replay of longer races. And without a buglist that makes the game impossible to trust.

It's not good enough to just have good driving physics. We need a good game.

Go back and read the PC1 forum for a little history lesson. This isn't me being impatient with a game only out for less than a year. Most of these issues go back to PC1, many of them (the netcode especially) going back to Shift. OK, making racing games is hard...

But apparently, harder for some than others.

 

[hasslemoff]

We need a good game.

Its a good game to me otherwise I wouldn't play it

 

[Chikane_GTR]

Its a good game to me otherwise I wouldn't play it

Agree