PSA Peugeot Citroen In Talks To Buy Opel/Vauxhall

[VXR]

Since the early 80's, Vauxhall has effectively been little more than a pair of UK-based Opel factories.

I know this, the design centre was closed in the 70s too I believe. Their motorsports efforts in the 80s and 90s and then the Vauxhall only decision to import HSVs makes me think they wanted to be more than they were.

 

[homeforsummer]

I don't simply dislike Peugeot, but I could equally suggest that there appears to be a distinct lean in the other direction in here.

Entirely correct, but only because it is literally my job to drive different cars and decide how good they are. I like Peugeots because the current ones are very good cars. I'm not overly keen on Vauxhalls because their hit rate is a great deal lower.

Your views may well be based on "experiences I have had with their cars over the years" but I'd hazard that many of those experiences have been grapevine talk rather than say, actually driving the cars.

To be fair though, Peugeot has had a lot of press about quality issues over the decades whereas Vauxhall had not had anywhere near the same relentless negative commentary regarding quality.

That simply isn't the case - Vauxhall has been at the bottom of JD Power, Driver Power and various other reliability and customer satisfaction surveys just as frequently as Peugeot (and Renault, and Fiat, and Ford, and basically anything that isn't Japanese or Skoda) has over the years.

I just think they could do better than a PSA takeover.

Apparently based on very little evidence. If they were "doing better" they wouldn't need to be taken over in the first place.

 

[Tornado]

So who are going to design the cars that GM sells in America after they are half a decade old?

 

[RandomCarGuy17]

Read an article today about another possibility of the takeover, that it may slowly turn into a badge engineering affair or be phased out entirely. So yeah Peugeot Buick's could be a reality!

and now I'm confused, I thought PSA buying Opel and Vauxhall meant that GM wouldn't own them anymore. Is PSA buying just those or all of GM? or something else?

 

[SlipZtrEm]

So who are going to design the cars that GM sells in America after they are half a decade old?

This was actually what I was wondering. I haven't kept pace with whatever Buick is doing over in China (other than, I assume, still more or less printing money for GM), but a lot of the range over here is based on Euro-market stuff.

If GM is to drop its only major European company, what will happen to Buick's North American lineup? Hell, what would happen to the Insignia-based Commodore coming up?

 

[Famine]

Entirely correct, but only because it is literally my job to drive different cars and decide how good they are. I like Peugeots because the current ones are very good cars. I'm not overly keen on Vauxhalls because their hit rate is a great deal lower.

Nah, you've only ever sat in an early 2000s Opel and compared it to a 2010ish Ford, or basically never sat in either...

 

[homeforsummer]

So who are going to design the cars that GM sells in America after they are half a decade old?

There are plenty of Astras in rental fleets over here, so I'm sure they could stretch those out for a while.

 

[SagarisGTB]

The new Astra is better than the old one, but not as good as the 308,

I'm surprised to read this, as my general impression from the English press is that the new Astra is best in class (or near enough) and that the 308 is mediocre. Mat Watson, for example, rates the Astra as best in class and deems it better than the Peugeot.

 

[Famine]

I'm surprised to read this, as my general impression from the English press is that the new Astra is best in class (or near enough) and that the 308 is mediocre. Mat Watson, for example, rates the Astra as best in class and deems it better than the Peugeot.

I think that the for the majority of the range the Astra is just about better than the 308, but in the higher spec cars the Peugeot is a step up in interior quality and I prefer the Peugeot's drive. The steering wheel isn't for everyone though

As for the best in class... nah. I mean, I don't like them at all, but how are you going to look at a category that has the Volkswagen Golf in it and come up with any other winner (though I prefer the Octavia)? The Golf even wins when put against premium brand rivals (although I prefer the Mercedes A-Class).

Don't get me wrong, considering where the Astra has been, it's an incredible product and no longer deserves to be mentioned in the ranks of worst cars in the class - as can be said about the Corsa now too - but it's not really any better than any of the other not-a-Golf options in the class. And I'd say the same about the Focus too.

But it is very trim, engine and price dependent.

 

[VXR]

They'd have done well to offer interior colours other than black. I hate that about modern cars.

 

[SagarisGTB]

As for the best in class... nah. I mean, I don't like them at all, but how are you going to look at a category that has the Volkswagen Golf in it and come up with any other winner (though I prefer the Octavia)?

If you don't want to watch the video, Mat Watson concludes that the Astra has the refinement of the Golf and is as fun to drive as the Focus.

Car reviewing is a subjective task, so to each his own. I would imagine it's hard to make absolute statements when different reviewers and consumers have different tastes, have different priorities and even occasionally are looking for different things from certain aspects of a car (steering weight, seating position etc.).

I also don't understand the Golf worship, but then I've never driven one.

The Golf even wins when put against premium brand rivals (although I prefer the Mercedes A-Class).

So has the Mazda3 (coincidentally in a test run by the same Mat Watson)!

Edit: Edited out the purple.

 

[VXR]

I drove a Mk.6 TDI. White goods.

 

[Robin]

Your views may well be based on "experiences I have had with their cars over the years" but I'd hazard that many of those experiences have been grapevine talk rather than say, actually driving the cars.

I have driven and been a passenger in quite a few Peugeot's the most recent being a 208 and although it certainly looked the part inside and out I did not find the fit and finish to be good and the ride was lumpy. Lots of focus on the style (at times overdone) and less of the substance, which seems to have been their ethos since the dawn of time. They have improved but could do better, maybe draw more from DS side of things although looking at the A pillar two tone flaking off a DS3 in the carpark today they may want to take the stuff people can't see. I may not review cars as a job but it doesn't make my criticisms and many others who share them invalid or passed off as 'grapevine talk'.

The steering wheel isn't for everyone though

I totally understand the philosophy behind their steering wheels but I wouldn't want to live with it, it just looks silly especially in relation to the dials and feels awkward.

This was actually what I was wondering. I haven't kept pace with whatever Buick is doing over in China (other than, I assume, still more or less printing money for GM), but a lot of the range over here is based on Euro-market stuff.

If GM is to drop its only major European company, what will happen to Buick's North American lineup? Hell, what would happen to the Insignia-based Commodore coming up?

GM could still choose to have some sort of partnership to supply whatever products end up being produced under PSA ownership to the US as Buicks. It will be down to the terms of the sale and who has the rights to use what. GM could possibly still produce old Opel underpinned Buicks for the US market in the US.

 

[Famine]

If you don't want to watch the video, Mat Watson concludes that the Astra has the refinement of the Golf and is as fun to drive as the Focus.

Watson is only as good as what @GTP_Ingram tells him to say...

Car reviewing is a subjective task, so to each his own. But I would imagine it's hard to make absolute statements when different reviewers and consumers have different tastes, have different priorities and even occasionally are looking for different things from certain aspects of a car (steering weight, seating position etc.).

Well, they haven't sacked me or @homeforsummer yet...

People will almost always buy the B- and C-segment Ford, Vauxhall and Volkswagen more than any other car. They almost always have, even when the Corsa was dire and had the worst gearbox on the market, even when the Escort was a dreary, soggy mess, even when the Golf was the Mk3. It's what people do and they'll continue to do it (if Vauxhall continues to exist) regardless of reviews. Hell, they'll buy them whether every Golf is puthering out 10 times the emissions Volkswagen says it does, or whether every third Corsa is actually on fire so when we say that the 308 is more fun to drive, the i30 is built better, the Mazda 3 is better equipped or the Civic is comfier, few people actually care* because they're going to make 1.4 visits to a dealership and drive off in their next Forxhwagen B/C segment car and rationalise that it's enough car for them.

Ultimately I don't think that, for the bulk of the range, the Astra comes close to having the breadth of talents the Golf has - but few cars do. I just find the Golf a bit clinical and safe (and the styling at the back of the rear doors is atrocious) and I really like the way Skoda has been going with the same platforms, engines and tech at its disposal (the facelift Octavia absolutely nacks though).

*I did a review for carwow once of the Peugeot 308. Some guy called up to say he'd been looking for a nearly new C-segment car and old for the 308 based on my review. It got weirder - he went to a car supermarket and bought one, which turned out to be not only ex-Peugeot press fleet, but the exact car I reviewed - so we do have people listen to us from time to time!

 

[05XR8]

With Holden about to get their next "big" car, it'll be interesting what they do in the market.

 

[homeforsummer]

I have driven and been a passenger in quite a few Peugeot's the most recent being a 208 and although it certainly looked the part inside and out I did not find the fit and finish to be good and the ride was lumpy.

Obviously this sort of stuff is subjective, but since you've picked two areas that the motoring press don't tend to criticise on the 208 - fit and finish, and ride quality (the latter in fact is generally rated as pretty good, something I can vouch for having driven several 208s myself), then I'm inclined to think you're just picking things out of the air to try and back up an argument with very little basis.

Lots of focus on the style (at times overdone) and less of the substance, which seems to have been their ethos since the dawn of time.

Up until the 205 came along Peugeot was if anything criticised for the complete opposite, cars that would plod on forever but didn't really inspire while doing so. The 205 had both style and substance (and pretty much dominated supermini reviews for the entire time it existed), the 106 and 306 were regularly rated as the best-driving cars in their class, and the 406 was the car that finally stopped the press raving on about the Mondeo.

The early-to-late-2000s period wasn't exactly a high point for Peugeot, but then Vauxhall was hardly producing world-beaters then either.

And since then, the large majority of Peugeots I've driven (over around the last five or six years, which is how long I've been doing this job) have been better than the Vauxhall equivalents - so little difference in quality for it not to be an issue, but better to drive - more eager, more involving, more of the things that people reading a forum like this would typically be interested in.

As I mentioned a few posts ago, the latest Astra is actually a very good car and the first Vauxhall in recent years that seems to properly turn things around (I hated the model that came before it, which felt heavy and stodgy and had particularly weird steering), and the 1.6-litre biturbo diesel you can get in it is a great engine. But again, recommending someone actually go out and buy a C-segment diesel is like recommending which shade of magnolia paint would look best in their spare bedroom.

None of which changes the fact that you still haven't really explained why PSA taking over Vauxhall/Opel would really be such a bad thing. So far you've just picked nits over cars from a company you aren't really keen on in comparison to one you are. Surely a more important metric would be financial success - and PSA has done a lot better in recent years than GM's European arm has.

The other thing I'd point out is that car companies aren't stupid. PSA might be wearing the trousers in such an arrangement, but if as a company it decides that some of Vauxhall/Opel's product lines are actually doing things right, then it's equally likely they'd consolidate Peugeot/Citroen/DS operations into one of those, rather than simply rebadging a load of Peugeots as Vauxhalls.

 

[Dennisch]

I'm looking at this not from a buying a new car perspective, but from the second hand fleet.

There's one thing PSA and Opel/Vauxhall share (d), as soon as they have hit some distance on the odometer, **** can and will happen, and 90% of the time it's a weird electronic problem. That has been the case since the late 80's all the way to, let's say 5 year ago at least. It says something when Fiat builds more reliable cars than you. Sure, German reliability has also been a bit sup-par throughout the years but still not as bad as Le Frenchies.

While my experience with post 2010 cars is a bit limited for now, I'm fairly confident that even those models will show themselves to me asking to find out what vain is clogged in their electron bits.

Still pushing my parents towards a Cactus though.

 

[GTP_Ingram]

Watson is only as good as what @GTP_Ingram tells him to say...

Well, I try The Astra/Focus/Golf group test was before my time though.

If you don't want to watch the video, Mat Watson concludes that the Astra has the refinement of the Golf and is as fun to drive as the Focus.

I mean, technically he says the Astra doesn't quite match the Focus for fun or the Golf for refinement, but offers what he thinks is the best balance between the two, and at a competitive price. It was a very close thing among all three, though. Given that VW has just given the Golf another mild update, there's a good change the outcome might be different now...

I'm yet to drive the Astra, but most of my colleagues think it's a very good car - certainly the best car in Vauxhall's current range by some margin. But - Corsa excepted - that really isn't saying much.

 

[Tornado]

I was actually thinking about this a bit more. Even ignoring the models GM removes Opel badges and affixing Buick ones, since GM started cleaning house of all of their late 80s models Opel had been the one doing a lot of heavy lifting for platform development.


Even though it is a money pit, does GM have the ability to effectively replace that engineering capacity?

 

[Robin]

Obviously this sort of stuff is subjective, but since you've picked two areas that the motoring press don't tend to criticise on the 208 - fit and finish, and ride quality (the latter in fact is generally rated as pretty good, something I can vouch for having driven several 208s myself), then I'm inclined to think you're just picking things out of the air to try and back up an argument with very little basis.

Really?

Auto Express - "Not as much fun to drive as some rivals, firm ride"
What Car - "The 208 is not as nice to drive as many rivals, still isn't a patch on the best-riding small cars, the steering is too vague and the sloppy body control means you have to wait for the car to flop over in corners before it actually begins to turn, 2/5 Ride, 2/5 Handling"
Car Buyer - "Hard ride, Vague gearbox, Rivals are better to drive"
AutoTrader - "Disappointing to drive, You may well be disappointed by the 208's ride comfort, the body leans over more than you'd think in the bends, 2/5 Ride and handling"

 

[homeforsummer]

Really?

Like I said in the post you quoted, "this sort of stuff is subjective".

Auto Express - "It feels a little firm at low speed and can crash into potholes, but once up to speed it soaks up bigger lumps and bumps well" (Pays to scroll further down the page, sometimes, for the full story)
Autocar - "It rides very well for the most part"
Carwow - "The ride quality, as we’ve come to expect from French carmakers, is up with the class leaders in terms of comfort and soaking up bumps"
Top Gear - "but with an impressive ability to soak through nasty roads with the poise of a bigger car"
evo - "most of the time it feels smooth, and settles quite nicely on the motorway"
Parkers - "although it’s behind the MINI and Swift in terms of handling it does offer a fairly decent compromise between comfort and handling"

But you're still diverting from my main question:

you still haven't really explained why PSA taking over Vauxhall/Opel would really be such a bad thing

 

[Robin]

you still haven't really explained why PSA taking over Vauxhall/Opel would really be such a bad thing

Among other concerns,

- They have had erratic fluctuations in quality which has been disappointing for longer in history than it's been good.
- You could say they took the soul out of Citroen when PSA was founded turning them into badge jobs (although the DS line has reversed some of that).
- I really don't see the synergy between the brands, they don't have a similar ethos to Opel/Vauxhall which seems to be more aligned with German sensibilities.
- There's no guarantee they won't just shut the operation down and use the manufacturing capacity for themselves seeing as GM lost money on these marques for over a decade.
- They bought and retired many UK marques when they took over Chrysler Europe.
- Depending on which way the French elections go a protectionist government may seek to make things difficult for PSA which Vauxhall would likely suffer from.

If VW didn't already own Skoda I would have thought that would be a good pairing (emissions scandal aside).

 

[YSSMAN]

Even though it is a money pit, does GM have the ability to effectively replace that engineering capacity?

Maybe?

It sounds like GM has been splitting up platform work between different areas of the world and maximizing their expertise for development. Korea has been handling the subcompact development on the Gamma-based vehicles, Opel has been doing work with the compact D2XX variants, and the Americans with the E2XX. Higher performance work has been done between the Americans and Australians, and with Holden shifting more toward product development than actual production, I'd make a bet that they would be picking up the slack if Opel is sold off.

 

[homeforsummer]

Opel has been doing work with the compact D2XX variants, and the Americans with the E2XX

Interesting that the new Volt is still on an Opel platform, particularly given it's not being sold as an Opel or Vauxhall this time around and given it sells in decent numbers in the US. That could make things particularly difficult, though if a third-generation Volt is in the pipeline then I imagine that'd be GM's chance to develop its own platform.

Seems the Bolt though is GM USA's work, though that platform isn't currently shared with anything else. Wouldn't surprise me if all of GM's smaller cars become electric - I'm not sure how well things like the Spark/Sonic and particularly the Cruze sell over there, but I do wonder if it's well enough to justify building platforms for the US market alone. Of course the Spark/Sonic are the Korean ones so that's less of an issue, but it's intriguing all the same.

Incidentally, the original Volt (/Ampera) was a genuinely segment-leading car. Looked, felt and drove better than the equivalent Prius, Leaf etc and seems to be popular with owners too.

 

[Dennisch]

PSA agrees to buy Opel from GM, wins board approval.


France's PSA Group (PEUP.PA) struck a deal with General Motors (GM.N) to buy the U.S. carmaker's loss-making Opel division, two sources with knowledge of the matter told Reuters.

The board of PSA, which makes Peugeot and Citroen cars, approved the deal on Friday, with an announcement planned for Monday, one of the people said.

Spokespeople for PSA and Opel declined to comment.

The two carmakers, which already share some production in an existing European alliance, confirmed last month they were negotiating an outright acquisition of Opel and its British Vauxhall brand by Paris-based PSA, sparking widespread concern over possible job cuts.

Earlier on Friday, Opel managers had adjourned a town hall meeting with workers until Monday morning, saying they could not yet discuss details of the proposed deal.

Sources close to the GM-PSA talks had said on Thursday they were progressing well after the carmakers narrowed differences on about $10 billion in Opel pension liabilities and other issues. GM's European arm recorded a 16th consecutive year of losses in 2016.

The talks had also encountered difficulties over GM demands that a PSA-owned Opel be barred from competing against its own Chevrolet lineup in China and other overseas markets, they said.

The "non-compete" issues were finally resolved as GM agreed to inject "substantially" more into the pensions than the $1 billion to $2 billion it had initially offered, another person said on Friday.

The sources declined to give any further details.

 

[Robin]

^ Hopefully we will learn more details as things progress now that it's pretty much a done deal.

Interesting bit about GM not wanting PSA Opel's in China. I wouldn't say the Chevy's over there are even in the same league as Opel's range and I doubt they would caniblise each other, there is plenty enough to go round!

 

[homeforsummer]

Among other concerns,

- They have had erratic fluctuations in quality which has been disappointing for longer in history than it's been good.
- You could say they took the soul out of Citroen when PSA was founded turning them into badge jobs (although the DS line has reversed some of that).
- I really don't see the synergy between the brands, they don't have a similar ethos to Opel/Vauxhall which seems to be more aligned with German sensibilities.
- There's no guarantee they won't just shut the operation down and use the manufacturing capacity for themselves seeing as GM lost money on these marques for over a decade.
- They bought and retired many UK marques when they took over Chrysler Europe.
- Depending on which way the French elections go a protectionist government may seek to make things difficult for PSA which Vauxhall would likely suffer from.

If VW didn't already own Skoda I would have thought that would be a good pairing (emissions scandal aside).

Sorry, missed this last time (for whatever reason, it's not notifying me when you post).

Some valid concerns there (as well as some we've already been over). I still think the quality thing is a moot point given Opel/Vauxhall is hardly an industry standard bearer in that regard, and the soulless Citroen thing seems more or less irrelevant to the discussion seeing as that company continued producing "proper" Citroens long after PSA was formed in 1974 (just off the top of my head: Visa, BX, CX, XM, Xantia, C6, and most recently the DS models and the C3/C4 Cactus).

What it actually did was made Citroen profitable, which is something it always struggled with when it was being really wacky and focused on engineering at all costs (similar to pre-Fiat Lancia).

Brand synergy is a fair point, but one that again is open to movement when the company hasn't made a profit for the best part of two decades. There wasn't a great deal of brand synergy between Renault and Nissan either but when Ghosn stepped in he made Nissan profitable within the space of twelve months and the brand has subsequently produced cars like the 350/370Z and the R35 GT-R, so it hardly sounded the death knell for Nissan.

Shutting down the operation? A risk, but if that is the case then it's one Opel and Vauxhall has brought upon itself by producing uncompetitive products for far too long. And if they do use the manufacturing capacity then that's hardly disastrous, as it will at least maintain some jobs.

However, this isn't like Scion being shut down. Opel/Vauxhall doesn't just rebadge an existing manufacturer's products (for the most part), it makes a wide range of vehicles unique to those two brands. The risk of the brands simply being phased out is low because there's presumably massive equity in the products they already produce, the R&D, the factories, the employees etc.

And as you note, VW already has enough on its plate. It's struggling to make SEAT justify its own existence and has had to slash all its motorsport programs to prepare for the Dieselgate costs, so I doubt VW will be in a position to buy any more brands for quite some time.

I'm not sure how it'd be any better than PSA though - VW Group would have had no more use for say, a Corsa in a market where it already sells a Polo, A1, Fabia and Ibiza to different audiences, than Peugeot does when it's selling a 208, DS3 and C3. Even if a Corsa or Astra became just a Polo or Golf underneath, who would you sell it to without taking sales from the four existing alternatives that already occupy every strata of the market?

 

[Scaff]

^ Hopefully we will learn more details as things progress now that it's pretty much a done deal.

Interesting bit about GM not wanting PSA Opel's in China. I wouldn't say the Chevy's over there are even in the same league as Opel's range and I doubt they would caniblise each other, there is plenty enough to go round!

It's now a done deal.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39175740

 

[Dennisch]

It makes me wonder why PSA wants to buy a brand that has been in the red for the last 17 years.

Is it for the technology of the Ampera?

 

[SlipZtrEm]

It makes me wonder why PSA wants to buy a brand that has been in the red for the last 17 years.

Is it for the technology of the Ampera?

Economies of scale? Extra factory capacity?

Nissan-Renault snapped up Mitsubishi, and its a verifiable basket case compared to Opel.