Question on damper & spring rate settings

[Proud_God]

Heya pro-tuners,

I've read Scaff's tuning guide, but I still have a question. In which situations should you tweak your damper settings, as opposed to the spring rates? What are the symptomps that tell you a car needs stiffer damper settings, and not stiffer springs?

Thanks

 

[Paulie]

I use shockies (Australian for dampers) to control
a) Reaction to bumps (not that important in GT5 as all the tracks are smooth)
b) Speed of weight transfer.

Let's look at (b) for a second.
Let's say I have a car that has trouble hooking up (getting traction) early on corner exits. I might tune the rear damper settings to be softer (allowing the springs to compress faster) so the weight will transfer faster to the rear wheels.
Alternatively, look at MR cars and their lift-off oversteer. A strong front damper setting will stop the weight transferring to the front so quickly meaning the front won't bite so hard and sudden meaning a smoother transition when you lift off the go pedal. Does that make sense?
Or even track layout can play a role. Say you have a corner on the track where you're just coming off another corner/still turning when you need to break for the next corner ahead. You feel you have a good brake balance on the rest of the track except when you start to brake for this corner you rear end slides around a bit. By making the front damper stronger you can prevent weight transferring to the front so suddenly meaning you won't have such sudden turn-in, it will become more gradual. This means your car will be less prone to sliding just as you're coming off that pervious corner and begin hitting the brakes. Does that make sense?

That's my interpretation of it anyway, it might be wrong (I hope not), hope it helps.

BTW- There was a thread soley on dampers a while ago. I normally tune dampers and springs with separate intentions. Depends on what the car is asking for.

 

[Proud_God]

Thanks Paulie, but wouldn't the same effects be achieved in your examples by adjusting the spirngs instead of the dampers?

 

[Scaff]

Thanks Paulie, but wouldn't the same effects be achieved in your examples by adjusting the spirngs instead of the dampers?

No, spring rates simply change how far the car will move under load transfer and how that load will be distributed between the two corners (at any given end). Spring rates have no effect at all on how quickly the load is transfered, thats determined by the damper settings.

In very basic terms (and regarding load transfer)

Springs = how much movement you see under load transfer and how its is shared between the two wheels on an axle (or axle plane)

Dampers = how quickly the movement occurs and how quickly the load transfer occurs, which are not the same things as the following quote from Skip Barber illustrates.....

"A stiffer bump setting slows down the motion on its corner and speeds up the load transfer. A softer bump setting does the opposite - it allows the suspension to move faster and spreads the changes in loading out over a longer period of time."

....which is exactly as Paulie described (but I would add always think about the setting at both ends of a car - with lift off oversteer load is not just moving to the front, but also coming off the back, its the combination of BOTH actions that cause liftoff oversteer).


A Gran Turismo and dampers thread does exist, it can be found here.....

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=74732

.. I would however warn you that while a lot of the information in it is 100% accurate, one of the posters (the original one) has a very poor grasp of how dampers work, and much of the thread is a (failed) attempt to get him to understand.


Regards

Scaff

 

[Paulie]

....which is exactly as Paulie described (but I would add always think about the setting at both ends of a car - with lift off oversteer load is not just moving to the front, but also coming off the back, its the combination of BOTH actions that cause liftoff oversteer).

Regards

Scaff

Which is why having such stiff rear springs in an MR car compared to soft front spirngs is curing lift-off oversteer for so many people. Because stiffer springs support more weight so when you lift off the throttle the springs are making the car support more weight on the rear.
But otherwise yes you must consider both ends. I was giving a brief explaination on some effects. Tuning has so many things to be considered, it's hard to put them all in one post.

 

[Scaff]

Which is why having such stiff rear springs in an MR car compared to soft front spirngs is curing lift-off oversteer for so many people. Because stiffer springs support more weight so when you lift off the throttle the springs are making the car support more weight on the rear.
But otherwise yes you must consider both ends. I was giving a brief explaination on some effects. Tuning has so many things to be considered, it's hard to put them all in one post.

Yes and no, first a clarification (and this may just be down to how terms are used), springs can't support more or less weight at all. Springs have no effect at all on the amount of weight/load transferred (the laws of physics are quite strict on this bit), so if 250 kilos is transferred from the back to the front when you lift the throttle that amount will not change no matter what the spring rates.

What spring rates will do is change how that load is distributed between the two tyres, with (as a very general rule) softer springs spreading the load more evenly, which results in better use of both tyres and better grip.

Lift off oversteer is a classic example of this occuring, as its caused by two factors, the following is a classic method of setting up a FWD hot hatch to induce lift off oversteer.

Front - Soft spring settings and soft (and in the real world often no) anti-roll bar settings. Allows the best use of each tyre in terms of grip. The soft spring rates do cause a lot of dive, but in the real world that has an advantage, it can be so great as to cause the rear suspension (on the corner nearest the apex) to reach the limit of travel (in extention) and leave the ground (the classic 'cocking a leg').

Back - Stiff spring and anti-roll bar settings, massively unequal grip shared between the rear tyres, with the corner away from the apex getting the most. Which is not a big problem, as I mentioned above the corner nearest the apex will often (in the real world) be off the ground.


What this gives us is at least three options for tuning out (or reducing) lift off over steer.

1. Soften up the rear, remembering that both spring rates and anti-roll bars play a part in lift-off oversteer (being careful to not increase grip too muchh and reduce the ability to power-over if needed).
2. Stiffen up the front spring rates and anti-roll bars (being careful to not go too far and reduce front end grip too much).
3. Soften the rear and stiffen the front (so a balance between both of the above).

Which of these works best will very much depend on the individual driver, car and track in question, but I have never been of the opinion that one single method of fixing a problem exists, tuning is all about compromise, what you gain in one area you loose in another, and its using ALL the options available to get as close the the right 'balance' as you can.


Regards

Scaff

 

[Paulie]

Wouldn't stiffer springs spread the weight more evenly between tyres as with softer springs the car will lean on the outside one shifting weight and therefore grip off the inside one?
Your whole explaination seems backwards. You're saying with stiff front and soft rear springs we can tune out some lift off oversteer yet in the game it's the other way around, stiff rear and soft front is curing lift-off oversteer.

Edit:
I was going by Greyout's old guide, I see now. The weight transfer between front and rear doesn't change, but left to right does. With stiffer springs on the rear the springs react to the body more causing more weight to transfer to the outer wheel. How does this make the weight on the front wheels transfer more evenly though?

Edit 2: That's right, because the total weight transfer remains the same so with stiffer rear spings the springs support that rear corner more from rolling (as the same amount of weight transfer is still trying to happen) pushing up creating downforce onto that rear (every action has reaction etc) tyre unloading the inside. Therefore with the outside back tyre carrying more load, the front tyre on the outside of the corner doesn't have to support as much meaning the inside supports more, and the front tyres distribute the weight more evenly and because of that they have more grip (due to the max amount of grip any one tyre can have in relation to downward force and lateral force yeah?).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but none of this takes into account front to back and back to front weight transfer as you accelerate and brake does it?

Edit 3: Is the reason V8s understeer more because the weight of the engine pitches more (because they're heavier) creating the inside tyre to lose downward force?

 

[Scaff]

Wouldn't stiffer springs spread the weight more evenly between tyres as with softer springs the car will lean on the outside one shifting weight and therefore grip off the inside one?
Your whole explaination seems backwards. You're saying with stiff front and soft rear springs we can tune out some lift off oversteer yet in the game it's the other way around, stiff rear and soft front is curing lift-off oversteer.

I was talking in very general terms and I'm talking about changes rather than settings, stiffening the front to reduce lift-off oversteer does not mean a stiff setting, it means a setting that is stiffer than it was before (so in relative terms could still be soft, just not as soft as it was).

I always caution about talking in extremes when it comes to tuning, as its can quickly end-up with miss-understandings.

Edit:
I was going by Greyout's old guide, I see now. The weight transfer between front and rear doesn't change, but left to right does. With stiffer springs on the rear the springs react to the body more causing more weight to transfer to the outer wheel. How does this make the weight on the front wheels transfer more evenly though?

Edit 2: That's right, because the total weight transfer remains the same so with stiffer rear spings the springs support that rear corner more from rolling (as the same amount of weight transfer is still trying to happen) pushing up creating downforce onto that rear (every action has reaction etc) tyre unloading the inside. Therefore with the outside back tyre carrying more load, the front tyre on the outside of the corner doesn't have to support as much meaning the inside supports more, and the front tyres distribute the weight more evenly and because of that they have more grip (due to the max amount of grip any one tyre can have in relation to downward force and lateral force yeah?).

Exactly

Correct me if I'm wrong, but none of this takes into account front to back and back to front weight transfer as you accelerate and brake does it?

Yes it does, as longitudinal load transfer always has to be considered when it comes to suspension settings, particularly as very few people totally separate
braking/acceleration from turning, so almost any cornering has to take both into account.

Once again lift-off oversteer is a good example of this, drivers who trail brake more tend to suffer more from lift-off oversteer than those who totally separate braking and cornering phases, as the trail brake driver is throwing the load around all at the same time. WHile the driver than separates them gets the load change from the braking done and stable and then turns in, its while that approach makes mid-engined cars easier to drive.

Edit 3: Is the reason V8s understeer more because the weight of the engine pitches more (because they're heavier) creating the inside tyre to lose downward force?

Basically yes, V8s can be very front heavy (as FWD cars are as well) and a V8 will also tend to have a high centre of gravity, which can lead to a situation in which one of the front tyres gets too much load over it and gets over loaded. Always remember that while load gives you grip, that does not carry on forever, at some point the limit of the tyre will be reached and then grip will fall off (often quickly).

One solution of this is to run a lower ride height (which lowers CoG and reduces load transfer), however that then means you need to run stiffer srpings to stop the car bottoming out, which can lead to issues with how load is shared (and therefore grip) at tyres.

As I said above, what you gain in one hand with tuning (particularly suspension tuning) gets taken away with the other hand, which makes it always a question of compromises.


Regards

Scaff

 

[Paulie]

It's annoying because you can lose yourself in thinking what has what effects.

What I meant with separating lateral from longitudinal weight transfer was this
eg. You run stiffer springs in the rear to give the fronts more grip through even distribution. However by doing that as you begin to accelerate mid-corner not as much weight transfers backwards meaning that the front tyres are still carrying too much weight resulting in understeer to the point of oversteer when the rear tyres haven't got enough downforce to maintain traction because weight isn't transferring to them. Is that correct? Is this another case of in one hand out the other?

Edit: Oh, and with tyre grip. Say we plotted a graph with weight on the x axis and grip on the y axis. As we add more weight, grip would start to increase, it would keep increasing steadily until a terminal point where grip would start to sharply fall off as we add more weight?

This is why we need to be able to tune anti-roll bars. Stiff rear bars helps the fronts distribute more evenly and give them more grip reducing understeer, and then you can run softer springs to allow weight to transfer longitudinally to give corner exit traction still.

 

[Scaff]

It's annoying because you can lose yourself in thinking what has what effects.

What I meant with separating lateral from longitudinal weight transfer was this
eg. You run stiffer springs in the rear to give the fronts more grip through even distribution. However by doing that as you begin to accelerate mid-corner not as much weight transfers backwards meaning that the front tyres are still carrying too much weight resulting in understeer to the point of oversteer when the rear tyres haven't got enough downforce to maintain traction because weight isn't transferring to them. Is that correct? Is this another case of in one hand out the other?

👍


That's exactly what I mean.


Its why you always have to think about both ends of the car and how any changes will effect them. Its why its also vital to know the track you are tuning for, as you can never set a car up to be idea in every part of every corner, so you have to focus on the most important corners of the track.

That's why I spend quite a bit of time talking (in my guides) about what settings effect a car in each part of a corner (so why dampers don't effect you in constant radius corners and why anti-roll bars have no effect in straight line acceleration/braking) and why I go through 'read' the track and rating corners. That way you can focus on the corners that will have the biggest impact on a lap time and set the car up to allow the driver to get the most oiut of the car in those corners.


The second you stand thinking in this more 'holistic' manner about tuning it does get more complex (but this is not a simple subject so that's no surprise), however you do also get much better results out of it, because you are better able to 'read' what is happening to the car and understand what change may help it and what problems that change may now cause.


Regards

Scaff

 

[Paulie]

This is one grey area I noticed with GT5 too. Stiffer springs without changes to ride height do not help cornering ability (except directional changes), yet if you go into GT5 and up the spring rates on a car and nothing else you will notice the "handling" bar increase and sure enough go out on the track and your car has more grip in the corners.
I'm reaching the same conclusions I've done in the past, sometimes I get caught up dwelling on one thing and start worrying what I'm doing is wrong. This is why my tunes are normally so good, because I find these balances.

If this doesn't help Proud_God, all this discussion, then surely he won't be understanding any time soon.

Edit: And that ladies and gentleman is why you find many muscle cars with stiffer (but sill relatively soft) front springs and softer rears.
Typical traits of muscle cars include
Too much weight on the front tyres
Too much torque (whoo yeah :tup:👍) resulting in wheel spin and oversteer

With stiffer front springs the weight is distributed more evenly over the rears giving them more traction making them less prone to wheelspin, and also allowing more longitudinal weight transfer to the rear (shifting weight off the front giving more grip to the front tyres which previously had too much) and therefore giving more traction.


Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but in straight up longitudinal weight transfer under acceleration (cornering not considered) you can't overload the rear tyres? The more weight on them the better for traction?

 

[Scaff]

With stiffer front springs the weight is distributed more evenly over the rears giving them more traction making them less prone to wheelspin, and also allowing more longitudinal weight transfer to the rear (shifting weight off the front giving more grip to the front tyres which previously had too much) and therefore giving more traction.

Yes and no. While you are quite right about the springs determining the distribution of load, spring rates themselves have no effect at all on how much load is transferred.

Load transfer will always be the same (longitudinal or lateral) regardless of any suspension settings, springs and anti-roll bars will not change that and all dampers can do is change how quickly the transfer happens.

Only three factors can change the amount of load transferred (for a fixed acceleration/deceleration or cornering force), the vehicle weight, its Centre of Gravity and its dimensions. Now one of these we have no control over at all in GT5 (the physical dimensions), but the other two we can change weight is obvious and COG can be changed using the ride height.

Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but in straight up longitudinal weight transfer under acceleration (cornering not considered) you can't overload the rear tyres? The more weight on them the better for traction?

Again it gets a bit more complicated than that, we actually have two forces at work here.

First the total amount of grip you have available, which is determined by the load placed on the tyre multiplied by the frictional co-efficient of tyre and track. This effectively gives you the total amount of grip that corner has.

The second thing we need to know is the force then placed on the tyre by what ever activity we are trying to do, so how much of that 'grip' does cornering, acceleration, braking or a combination of these generate.

If you take a look at the second of my guides I cover this is detail with a working example (a 350Z under acceleration).

So strictly speaking 'load' alone will not loose you grip, what makes it more complicated is that the co-efficient of friction (from the first factor) varies depending on the work the tyre is asked to do (from the second factor). With the co-efficient rising to begin with and then once it reaches a certain point (measured as slip angle for lateral loads and slip percentage for longitudinal loads) it redices, often verey quickly.

This relationship can be mapped (and are known as Pacejka curves) and does vary from tyre to tyre...

....and can then be used to see the relationship between slip angle and corning force.


Regards

Scaff

 

[Paulie]

If we can't change the amount of weight transferred to the rear, then why in drag racing do we use really soft springs?

 

[Scaff]

If we can't change the amount of weight transferred to the rear, then why in drag racing do we use really soft springs?

With drag racing you have a lot more factors involved and a large amount of the suspension tuning at the rear is down to controlling the torque delivered to the rear tyres and how the suspension then copes with it (stopping or minimising axle bounce, etc).

You can't change the fundamental laws of physics and this one of them, look at it this way, if you took a car an average FWD car with a F/R weight distribution of 60/40 and replaced the suspension with metal bars, would that weight distribution change?

The answer is no, and the same would be true if you changed the suspension to sponge, the car would of course now collapse on the suspension, but the weight distribution would remain the same.

Spring rates, anti-roll bar rates and damper settings can not change the amount of weight transferred.

Attend any lecture on vehicle dynamics, read any text on performance tuning or car set-up and its one of the first fundamental basics covered.

Try and pick up a copy of the following book...

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0837602262/?tag=gtplanet-20


...which an excellent text and covers this (and many other driving and tuning areas) in great detail.


Regards

Scaff

 

[Paulie]

With drag racing you have a lot more factors involved and a large amount of the suspension tuning at the rear is down to controlling the torque delivered to the rear tyres and how the suspension then copes with it (stopping or minimising axle bounce, etc).

You can't change the fundamental laws of physics and this one of them, look at it this way, if you took a car an average FWD car with a F/R weight distribution of 60/40 and replaced the suspension with metal bars, would that weight distribution change?

The answer is no, and the same would be true if you changed the suspension to sponge, the car would of course now collapse on the suspension, but the weight distribution would remain the same.

Spring rates, anti-roll bar rates and damper settings can not change the amount of weight transferred.

Attend any lecture on vehicle dynamics, read any text on performance tuning or car set-up and its one of the first fundamental basics covered.

Try and pick up a copy of the following book...

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0837602262/?tag=gtplanet-20


...which an excellent text and covers this (and many other driving and tuning areas) in great detail.


Regards

Scaff

I wouldn't purchase a book online, but I will go to a bookstore and see if I can find some books on suspension tuning. I always figured that when a car leans back the weight transferred backwards and the more lean the more weight. Oh well, that was wrong.

 

[Proud_God]

Paulie, no offence, but you seemed a bit confused in your answers (saying thins that are actually the other way around). For example you said:

Let's say I have a car that has trouble hooking up (getting traction) early on corner exits. I might tune the rear damper settings to be softer (allowing the springs to compress faster) so the weight will transfer faster to the rear wheels.

This is wrong isn't it? The harder the dampers at an axle, the faster the load transfer to that axle, right?

Scaff, on the other hand, made perfect sence

 

[NLxAROSA]

Nice discussion. But is your question now answered Proud_God?

 

[Proud_God]

Kinda.. it's still not totally clear for me in which situations to tune the spring rate and in which the dampers.. but I guess you just have to experiment until you get a desirable result..

 

[NLxAROSA]

Dampers are most effective when weight is being shifted. More specifically: corner entry and exit. So if you have any problems there, dampers are the place to look. Springs are a more of a general thing. I'm not a very theoretically based tuner, so that may sound rather simplistic, but it works for me.

 

[Jay]

I wouldn't purchase a book online, but I will go to a bookstore and see if I can find some books on suspension tuning.

I have been doing research into vehicle physics for quite some time now, I keep hearing how great that book is (the one Scaff linked, Going faster) and I couldn't find it or anything similar around in bookstores here local or when I was in the US, so a few days ago I ordered it online from Amazon.

 

[Paulie]

Paulie, no offence, but you seemed a bit confused in your answers (saying thins that are actually the other way around). For example you said:



This is wrong isn't it? The harder the dampers at an axle, the faster the load transfer to that axle, right?

Scaff, on the other hand, made perfect sence

No, that was right about dampers.

 

[Scaff]

Paulie, no offence, but you seemed a bit confused in your answers (saying thins that are actually the other way around). For example you said:



This is wrong isn't it? The harder the dampers at an axle, the faster the load transfer to that axle, right?

Scaff, on the other hand, made perfect sence

No, that was right about dampers.

I will bring Skip Barber back to answer this one....

"A stiffer bump setting slows down the motion on its corner and speeds up the load transfer. A softer bump setting does the opposite - it allows the suspension to move faster and spreads the changes in loading out over a longer period of time."

.....so

Stiffer = Faster load transfer (but 'visually' is slower to react).
Softer = Slower load transfer (but 'visually' quicker to react).

Kinda.. it's still not totally clear for me in which situations to tune the spring rate and in which the dampers.. but I guess you just have to experiment until you get a desirable result..

As has been mentioned, damper are only a factor when load is being applied or removed from the tyres, so they play a major roll in corner entry and exit, but have almost no roll to play in constant radius cornering (for example long sweepers you take on a steady throttle).

Springs are important in all parts of the corner and finally anti-roll bars act in the same way as springs but only when cornering (lateral loads being applied - so as the name suggests they affect roll) and not when you are straight line braking or accelerating.

One other area of potential importance for dampers is in how the car reacts to surface changes, now most GT5 tracks are very smooth, but if you do ride the curbs or rumble strips then dampers have a roll to play here.

Because stiffer dampers apply load changes more quickly, if they are too stiff they can almost 'bi-pass' the suspension, with the load transfer happening so fast the springs can't react. In this case you can end up with the car loosing contact with the track, softening the dampers can help reduce this and keep contact with the road (the lighter the car the more likely you are to need to look at this).

I have been doing research into vehicle physics for quite some time now, I keep hearing how great that book is (the one Scaff linked, Going faster) and I couldn't find it or anything similar around in bookstores here local or when I was in the US, so a few days ago I ordered it online from Amazon.

It an excellent book and I think you will like it. Paulie most good book-shops should be able to order a copy of it for you, that's how I got my copy. Its well worth every penny/cent/etc.


Regards

Scaff

 

[NLxAROSA]

most good book-shops should be able to order a copy of it for you

Yes, any bookstore should be able to order it if you supply them the ISBN.

 

[AutoAki]

I have 'butt-feeling', that softer suspension gives more weight in the end, for that axle/side...?

How is it in real?

My feeling based on Karting, and cornering in there. (and there is no dampers/springs ofcourse) I just feel that some corners can be driven faster when lie to other side than turn, and some when lie to same side.


I've also notice that drag-race cars have quite 'soft' back suspension.

 

[Paulie]

Stiffer = Faster load transfer (but 'visually' is slower to react).
Softer = Slower load transfer (but 'visually' quicker to react).

Regards

Scaff

I think I can visualise that (I am never content with knowing what, I must know how and why). Does that mean to get a car to hook up faster stiffer dampers are more useful on the rear? It's like pushing on a solid rod as opposed to pushing on an exntended slinky. With the rod the action/force is instantaneous at the other end, but on the slinky it sends through a wave and the force/action doesn't reach the other end until that wave travels through the slinky.

None of this explains why soft suspension is better for drag racing and traction though.

 

[Scaff]

I think I can visualise that (I am never content with knowing what, I must know how and why). Does that mean to get a car to hook up faster stiffer dampers are more useful on the rear? It's like pushing on a solid rod as opposed to pushing on an exntended slinky. With the rod the action/force is instantaneous at the other end, but on the slinky it sends through a wave and the force/action doesn't reach the other end until that wave travels through the slinky.

Exactly right in terms of the visualisation side of things, but not quite right in regard to how things 'hook-up', see the next bit for that.

None of this explains why soft suspension is better for drag racing and traction though.

Part of it is down to how rubber works (and we are stepping away from GT here for as moment - as while it does model the following to a degree its not perfect), to maximise the grip available from a tyre you need to ensure that the forces build up rather than are just thrown at it all in one go.

To get the maximum grip (either in lateral or longitudinal terms) tyre prefer the forces to build at a steady pace rather than all arrive in one go, now in reality we are talking differences of milli-seconds, but they all count. This is something that you can experience in the real world, particularly if its been raining/snowing/very cold. If you suddenly steer you can end up loosing grip even when you know that enough grip 'should' be available, and had you been slightly more smooth and progressive with the input you would have been able to get that grip out of the tyres.

Its why racing puts so much importance on the smooth application of all controls, from steering to brakes to the throttle.

The same logic applies to tyres and suspension settings, too stiff a damper setting will allow the load to be placed on the contact path too quickly and as a result the rubber will not have 'time' to do its job.

In reality tyres are hideously complex things, particularly when the get to having very large side-profiles (such as pro-drag and F1, etc), when the rubber actually becomes part of the suspension, having its own effective spring and damper ratings. This can have so great an effect that it can often play a major part, F1 being a classic example, in which the rear tyres are actually the dominant suspension component.

What you also have (as I did mention earlier) with drag racing is also the effect torque being delivered will have on the suspension. A huge amount of torque is delivered in very quick order at the start of a drag race and the suspension has to be 'quick' enough to react to any axle bounce that may come with it, softer suspension is quicker in reaction and so can help to ensure the tyre remains in contact with the road and ensure that the load is delivered to the tyre smoothly to make the most of the grip the tyre has to offer.

Edited to add - nearly forgot about this.

Also you need to take into account gear-changes. No matter how quickly they are done they will cause the car to (for a very short amount of time) reduce its acceleration, which will try and shift load forward. Softer damper settings ensure this is done slowly (well as slowly as these kind of forces can be made to go) ensuring no sudden loss of load off the rear tyres. One of the last things you want in a drag race is sudden loss of rear grip (well not unless you have a great fondness for going backwards and walls).


Regards

Scaff

 

[homeforsummer]

I'd just like to pop into this thread to add that it's brilliant, really interesting reading this discussion 👍 It's going in my bookmarks folder

My feeling based on Karting, and cornering in there. (and there is no dampers/springs ofcourse) I just feel that some corners can be driven faster when lie to other side than turn, and some when lie to same side.

Just as an aside (as I'll let someone with a better grasp of physics than me answer your question) but although a go-kart has no springs or dampers per se, the tyres and chassis do have a degree of flex that replicates spring and damper characteristics on a small scale - so basic weight transfer physics still apply.

In general, you'll get better cornering grip by leaning your weight towards the inside of the turn, because the inside tyres will be relatively unloaded. This is especially important on a slippy surface, like a wet track or indoor circuit. I can't comment on leaning to the outside, as it's counter-intuitive when driving hard, but I expect it wouldn't do much good for your grip.

 

[AutoAki]

In general, you'll get better cornering grip by leaning your weight towards the inside of the turn, because the inside tyres will be relatively unloaded. This is especially important on a slippy surface, like a wet track or indoor circuit. I can't comment on leaning to the outside, as it's counter-intuitive when driving hard, but I expect it wouldn't do much good for your grip.

Yep.

I think that leaning to outside, works only in those cases, when there is much more 'gum' in drivingline for outside tyres... and also when you shortcut over inside of curve. Those tracks which I have driven a lot, have that kind of curves, that you needed to do both technics to being so fast as you could.

 

[Paulie]

Thanks Scaff, again I forgot about gradual build up of grip, so in some ways it seems you need to find a mid-way point for dampers, if weight transfers to quickly you will lose grip, and if too slowly you won't get it fast enough.

 

[Hugo Boss]

I think that leaning to outside, works only in those cases, when there is much more 'gum' in drivingline for outside tyres... and also when you shortcut over inside of curve. Those tracks which I have driven a lot, have that kind of curves, that you needed to do both technics to being so fast as you could.

Leaning to the outside works in karts, because they have a live rear axle. During cornering, the inside wheel rotates just as fast as the outside wheel. By leaning to the outside, you decrease the pressure on the inside wheel, allowing it to spin more, resulting in better agility.
In opposite to leaning to the inside, leaning to the outside also prevents your helmet from becoming a fishbowl