Quick, Overreact!!!

[nevertell]

But this isn't safety, it's the case where the Americans are less, what's the word I'm looking for here, intelligent ?

 

[Famine]

But this isn't safety, it's the case where the Americans are less, what's the word I'm looking for here, intelligent ?

I'm struggling to see where being cautious of a religious fundamentalist on a plane praying in a foreign language while wearing a box on his face a month after a religious fundamentalist on a plane praying in a foreign language tried to blow himself, it and hundreds of other people up over a populated area somehow contrives to become a lack of intelligence.

Care to fill in the gaps for me?

 

[Ibonibo]

"Flying is not a right. Flying with your religious symbols or whatever is ALSO not a right."
The right of free mouvement? The right of religion?? That are acts that where somewhat invited by the armericans (inspired by the french revolution). That are rights which every human is born.

If Bush had passed the law for torturing would he have the right? Stating the Charta of human rights...

I don't understand. Sure better say something if it's suspicous but cut human rights than the terrorism has won.
I'm not american, so i can't fully feel the way you do about beeing attacked but this is my opinion.

Famine : it was a jew not the religion most people think we are in war with,
Would someone be alerted by a suspicous WASP?

 

[FoolKiller]

So, I decided to do a bit of research. You know, so this American can be more intelligent regarding a rarely practiced custom.

I found that these tefellin can be either worn all day, but are taken off at night and when entering unclean places, such as restrooms. More modern practices though only have them being worn with prayers, which are to be said within 4 hours of sunrise. What you practice depends on which customs you follow.

In this instance, it appears that this boy only wears it while saying prayers. He did not have them on when he got on the flight and the flight crew reacted when he began putting them on, because it appeared to be boxes with wires running to his fingertips, due to the arm straps. The boy and his family do not disagree with how the crew describes the events. The closest thing to a negative reaction they had to say was his grandmother:

The boy’s grandmother, Frances Winchell, who was waiting for her grandson and his 13-year-old sister in Kentucky, said that she hopes that Americans learn a bit more about Jewish customs so that they are not afraid of them.

He was a 17-year-old kid just trying to do what he was brought up to do, and didn't think about it thoroughly. As 17-year-old boys are known to do on occasion. In the end everyone is understanding of what happened and the boy's rabbi even said:

Rabbi Greenberg, the boy’s rabbi, had some advice for future flights.

“I would suggest, pray on the plane and put the tefillin on later on,” he said. “Pray, and fulfill the ritual later.”

Even the rabbi is being understanding here.

The people involved aren't in disagreement with the actions taken, so I don't see what there is to argue about.


And anyone trying to say the flight crew overreacted; this is what it looks like when worn, including the stuff on the arm.

I live near this boy's family and I have never seen anything like that. If I saw someone putting it on I wouldn't know what to think. In the context of being on a plane, which appears to be a favorite terrorist target, I would probably take the cautious route as well. Remember, none of the flight crew are trained to investigate these things or paid enough to confront a potential killer. Had an air marshal been on board then perhaps it could have been inspected, but there wasn't and the crew that were there are trained to not risk their lives.

 

[Famine]

"Flying is not a right. Flying with your religious symbols or whatever is ALSO not a right."
The right of free mouvement? The right of religion?? That are acts that where somewhat invited by the armericans (inspired by the french revolution). That are rights which every human is born.

Let me know how successful you are boarding a flight with a Kirpan (Sikh ceremonial knife) and demanding a free journey to wherever you wish to go. Oh wait, you have to pay for the ticket, abide by the airlines policies and go through a security check which will take the knife as you are not allowed knives in the cabin.

Flying is not a right. Flying with religious totems is not a right.

I don't understand. Sure better say something if it's suspicous but cut human rights than the terrorism has won.

"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance".

No rights are being curtailed here.

I'm not american, so i can't fully feel the way you do about beeing attacked but this is my opinion.

I am not American either.

Famine : it was a jew not the religion most people think we are in war with,

I know. Not only can I read news stories, but I've even posted about his Jewish Orthodoxy in this thread.

So what? Jews have never committed terrorist acts? New York City has never seen terror attacks committed by Jews?

Would someone be alerted by a suspicous WASP?

Depends what it was doing. If it was wearing a black box on its face and muttering sotto voce in a Middle Eastern language less than a month after a man muttering sotto voce in a Middle Eastern language tried to blow up a plane with a flaming penis, I imagine they might.

 

[Danoff]

"Flying is not a right. Flying with your religious symbols or whatever is ALSO not a right."
The right of free mouvement? The right of religion?? That are acts that where somewhat invited by the armericans (inspired by the french revolution). That are rights which every human is born.

You're free to move wherever you want and practice whatever religion you want - provided you don't do it on someone else's property, then THEY get the final say in what sorts of behavior they will tolerate. In this case, the boy was on a private aircraft owned by a company that has its own policies. I would have no beef with him putting one of these on on his own property, but when you're on someone else's property - this is not an issue of freedom.

Ever see a no-smoking sign anywhere? You're free to smoke on your property, but others can prevent you from doing so on theirs. "We reserve the right to refuse anyone"? "No shoes, no shirt, no service"? These are the words of private individuals setting their rules on their property. If the customers complain and the plane lands, that's Southwest... or American Airlines... or Delta (are they still in business?)... or Jet Blue's decision. And if they reserve the right to deny service to someone who looks a certain way, that's their prerogative.

 

[Northstar]

Delta (are they still in business?).

They are only the biggest airline size wise.

I still think there were better ways to handle the situation. You know like talking to the kid and telling him to put it away.

 

[FoolKiller]

I still think there were better ways to handle the situation. You know like talking to the kid and telling him to put it away.

I will quote myself:

Remember, none of the flight crew are trained to investigate these things or paid enough to confront a potential killer. Had an air marshal been on board then perhaps it could have been inspected, but there wasn't and the crew that were there are trained to not risk their lives.

The attendant did not know what it is, did ask him what he was doing, he did explain it, but as it appeared to be wires running down his arm she erred on the side of caution.

And as his own rabbi pointed out, the better way to handle this would have been for him to have not put it on until he was off the plane.

 

[DK]

But, of course, anything from an accepted religion gets an automatic free pass just because it's religious, I guess because, well, it's religious.

I'd just laugh if some Islamic extremists claimed that a bomb stuffed in their pants was part of a religious ritual. I'm pretty damn sure the prophet Mohammed had no such thing as bombs in his day.

 

[Danoff]

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a terrorist actually use this exact religious outfit to attempt a bombing. He'd even have a built-in explanation, and people are familiar with it now that it's a news story and won't question it again.

Perfect.

 

[Grand Prix]

If this is what the paranoid American tourists are gonna be like when the Olympics come in February I'll probably die from hysterical laughter. Half of Iran and several parts of Pakistan and India live here. You can't avoid "terrorist looking" people in Vancouver. If an American tourist stops the SkyTrain, bus or ferry every time he/she sees a "terrorist" it's gonna be chaos.

 

[FoolKiller]

If an American tourist stops the SkyTrain, bus or ferry every time he/she sees a "terrorist" it's gonna be chaos.

Are they pulling out what appears to be boxes with wires and wrapping them around their bodies? Muslims in traditional outfits use various forms of public transportation in the US every day without problem.

But thanks for the stereotype. And I suggest you be careful about the Olympics comments. The Olympics and terrorists (or terrorist like acts) have a history, most recently in the US, and I think you might be surprised at just how much security you see.

 

[Danoff]

If this is what the paranoid American tourists are gonna be like when the Olympics come in February I'll probably die from hysterical laughter.

Yea, friggin morons those Americans. Always being worried about people strapping bomb-looking things to themselves with wires in their hands. Idiots! Don't you stupid Americans know that it's religious custom to wear dynamite vests?

(I am aware of the irony that it actually IS religious custom for some fundamentalists to strap dynamite on and blow people up)

 

[Duke]

"Flying is not a right. Flying with your religious symbols or whatever is ALSO not a right."

The right of free mouvement? The right of religion?? That are acts that where somewhat invited by the armericans (inspired by the french revolution). That are rights which every human is born.

Nobody would have prevented him from walking on his own feet, driving his own car, or indeed probably flying his own airplane. His right to free movement and free expression of religion are fully protected by the Constitution.

You're confusing his natural right to move (protected) and his natural right to free expression (protected) with his freedom to do either of those things on someone else's private property (not protected). An airliner is not public property. It is private property of the airline in question. The FIRST duty of that airplane's crew (who are employees of the airline) is to protect the safety of the other passengers on the plane. They did exactly what they should have done, given the information they had to work with - deal with the situation as promptly and effectively as possible.

Also, please take a look at the historical chronology of the American Revolution compared to the French Revolution before you decide who inspired whom.

Famine : it was a jew not the religion most people think we are in war with, Would someone be alerted by a suspicous WASP?

People should be alerted by anyone behaving suspiciously. Full stop. Should he have gotten a free pass because he was Jewish? Isn't that profiling?

 

[Grand Prix]

Are they pulling out what appears to be boxes with wires and wrapping them around their bodies? Muslims in traditional outfits use various forms of public transportation in the US every day without problem.

Not really. Of course they have no problem. In the context of not having an international event to secure, what would the problem be?

But thanks for the stereotype. And I suggest you be careful about the Olympics comments. The Olympics and terrorists (or terrorist like acts) have a history, most recently in the US, and I think you might be surprised at just how much security you see.

I hope there will be good security at the events. But knowing our customs officers here, I wouldn't count on them. They're likely to just cause heart attacks when they get a little trigger-happy with the tasers.

Yea, friggin morons those Americans. Always being worried about people strapping bomb-looking things to themselves with wires in their hands. Idiots! Don't you stupid Americans know that it's religious custom to wear dynamite vests?

(I am aware of the irony that it actually IS religious custom for some fundamentalists to strap dynamite on and blow people up)

Paranoid Americans, yes, normal Americans, not really. There are paranoid Vancouverites as well but everyone just ignores them. Anyone that chooses to live here and is still paranoid of strange-looking religious acts has to be crazy. Maybe we should restrain and taser them as well.

 

[Public'sTwin]

Paranoid Americans, yes, normal Americans, not really. There are paranoid Vancouverites as well but everyone just ignores them. Anyone that chooses to live here and is still paranoid of strange-looking religious acts has to be crazy. Maybe we should restrain and taser them as well.

Not to be a thorn, but most of those guilty of the 1985* Flight 182 Air India Bombing were from, and trained in & around Vancouver. (They were Sikh separatists, though—not Muslim fundies.)

 

[Grand Prix]

Not to be a thorn, but most of those guilty of the 1985* Flight 182 Air India Bombing were from, and trained in & around Vancouver. (They were Sikh separatists, though—not Muslim fundies.)

Yep. I wouldn't be surprised if there were more terrorists living here. Maybe it's the cynic in me, but I don't really care if that is the case. In fact, I have the controversial view that perhaps the Olympics will be even safer because of it. They wouldn't want to blow up headquarters and trainees by mistake, now would they? Then again, they are crazy.