R.S.01 GT3 handling issue

[Nando deBem]

I don’t think it’s a problem of brake balance. It seems more like a problem of decelerating LSD setup. Maybe that’s what makes this car great at the S section in the beginning, but at slower speeds, it feels completely wrong.

 

[Patclash]

I don’t think it’s a problem of brake balance. It seems more like a problem of decelerating LSD setup. Maybe that’s what makes this car great at the S section in the beginning, but at slower speeds, it feels completely wrong.

Yes all GTS default LSD setting are crap

 

[GTFraker]

I actually think the RS01's stock setup is decent. It's certainly not as obviously mid-engined as the 458 which can be tricky to keep consistently on the limit (and which does not display the same trait at the hairpin).

Call it a bug, characteristic, issue or whatever, I think the RS01 has a behaviour which it shouldn't regardless of its basic configuration. I have a vid, I just need to edit and upload it, which I'll endeavour to do tomorrow.

The RSR is fast, but it's predictability is the key and until they nerf it I can't see anything usurping it as the weapon of choice in Gr.3, where you have a choice.

The 458 is amazing and my weapon of choice in the Gr.3 category is the Z4 where I have bo problem beating the numerous RSRs.

 

[GTWelsh]

If you think this car is bad try the Gr3 Lambo.

 

[Outspacer]

If you think this car is bad try the Gr3 Lambo.

I did, and it had no problem coasting round the hairpin in 1st with no throttle, no drama at all. I'd agree that it's the one you'd expect to be a handful there, given how you need to be careful with it through 2nd and 3rd gear corners, but it was fine even at full left stick on the DS4. The RS steps out on me on that hairpin every time when driving it like the Lambo, even when going slower. But on 2nd and 3rd gear corners the RS has no drama at all.

In arcade mode, I tried softening the rear and lowering LSD decel, but it didn't help.

Once or twice I did get it round the hairpin somewhat OK, and got a time faster than the Lambo. Still not quite as fast as the 458. Taking it very wide and avoiding the apex seemed to help, obviously cost some time but not as much as stepping out. I wouldn't want to use that line in a race.

I don't know if it's a bug or not, but it makes me dislike what is otherwise a pretty capable car.

edit to note: most testing done with ABS on, TCS off, ASM off, CSA on, brake balance 0.

 

[250Cal]

OK.

In summary. This thread was started by a number or posters who had issues with the RS01 GT3 in one specific place - the hairpin at Suzuka. Having found this issue too, I found this thread hoping to find a solution. Sadly there wasn't one so I embarked on some testing myself and used input from various friends and posters to help zero in on the issue.

Test Conditions:-
BoP On - Issue seen in daily races and FIA event
Default settings for "Expert" (I have switched ASM on/off when exploring the issue)

I have tested this issue repeatedly driving back and forth around the hairpin using various approaches in terms of line, speed, gear, throttle, brake and steering applications. I have incremented and turned on and off the various aids available as part of this.

Video of issue being seen:



Notes from video:
This is one example of many I could use, the issue is similar under various conditions.
In this example I approach at race speed using normal braking points and lines. As you can see from the video I pick up the throttle early with a small application and the car spins.
You can see on the video that even a light throttle application causes TCS to cut in mid corner after which point the whole throttle bar flashes red.

Findings:
The issue is real and I can repeat it at will.
Following testing I can also switch it on and off.
The issue can be contained by use of ASM but at the cost of overall lap time.
The issue is exacerbated by tyre wear which would have an obvious effect on traction, grip and in-game physics and TCS.

My thoughts on this:
I believe there is an issue with the RS01 GT3, specifically related to the interaction between it and the driver aid TCS which, when set at Level 2 or above, cuts the power leaving the car susceptible to spinning due to the basic physics model and/or the diff setting. Once TCS is triggered releasing the throttle, accelerating or braking will have the effect - the rear end breaks away.

Given that it only happens in this specific hairpin the issue may also be triggered by the camber profile of this corner.

Further testing:
To validate this theory, I have repeatedly run with the TCS set at 1 or 0 (All other settings per "Expert default" i.e. no ASM) and found the car takes the corner more consistently. See video below where I deliberately throw the car in and am sharper on the throttle to invoke the issue and it does not occur. TCS cuts in, but the lower setting isn't so intrusive as to cut the power to trigger the problem.



Call it a bug, a characteristic, an issue, a glitch whatever - I personally think it shouldn't happen and there's a code issue which causes this to happen and could be fixed.

 

[250Cal]

The 458 is amazing and my weapon of choice in the Gr.3 category is the Z4 where I have bo problem beating the numerous RSRs.

I have also enjoyed the Z4 and was pissed when they nerfed it. It's still good, but not as good. The 458 is fast but edgy. With the game at its current level (1.10) I find the RSR just that bit too good to beat with the others.

 

[GTFraker]

Like it or not, that is your error, you are steering the car too much and as I stated in my original post it will result in a spin. Cars behave differently and handle differently, you need to be very precise with your steering with the R.S 01. You have CSA and TCS turned on yet you spin the car, this clearly means you are mishandling the ride.

 

[IngRobNy]

Notes from video:
This is one example of many I could use, the issue is similar under various conditions.

This is exactly the same thing that happend to me as well and just in that corner .

 

[250Cal]

Like it or not, that is your error, you are steering the car too much and as I stated in my original post it will result in a spin. Cars behave differently and handle differently, you need to be very precise with your steering with the R.S 01. You have CSA and TCS turned on yet you spin the car, this clearly means you are mishandling the ride.

I fully expect posts like yours from various parties and you are, of course, entitled to your opinion. I'm not sure how you can conclude I'm "steering too much" with no telemetry and no view of my left thumb. As I've said, I've tried many different lines, speeds etc and I don't think the radius of that corner is much different to many others in the game which could provoke the same result.

Literally hundreds of times I've done this now in different ways. I'm pretty comfortable with my conclusions based on what I and others have seen and the fact I can turn the effect on and off.

Whatever, I've documented my findings and invested enough of my time in this. It is what it is.

 

[Outspacer]

Like it or not, that is your error, you are steering the car too much and as I stated in my original post it will result in a spin. Cars behave differently and handle differently, you need to be very precise with your steering with the R.S 01. You have CSA and TCS turned on yet you spin the car, this clearly means you are mishandling the ride.

OK, there's a couple of errors shown in the video which aren't made in the second one. Riding up on the curb is liable to cause a spin in a few cars. So it's not a great example of the issue, which I found was happening even when missing the curb and on a fairly smooth line, no (or tiny amount of) throttle. In my testing (with TCS off), I didn't spinout, just an awkward sudden tail-out, slow down, and lose any kind of decent exit costing another couple tenths down the road.

(I say 'issue' without making it any verdict on whether it's a bug or a handling quirk).

 

[250Cal]

OK, there's a couple of errors shown in the video which aren't made in the second one. Riding up on the curb is liable to cause a spin in a few cars. So it's not a great example of the issue, which I found was happening even when missing the curb and on a fairly smooth line, no (or tiny amount of) throttle. In my testing (with TCS off), I didn't spinout, just an awkward sudden tail-out, slow down, and lose any kind of decent exit costing another couple tenths down the road.

(I say 'issue' without making it any verdict on whether it's a bug or a handling quirk).

That's my bad, I picked a couple of clips for ease of extraction rather than filtering through stacks of video on a clunky interface. In the second video, I believe 100% if TCS is on 2 or more, that's a spin. I take curb inside and out, am fairly abrupt on the controls but it pushes through.

The issue you describe at TCS 0 is, I think, the diff issue. I believe the TCS potentially pulls you into that by cutting power.

 

[GTFraker]

I fully expect posts like yours from various parties and you are, of course, entitled to your opinion. I'm not sure how you can conclude I'm "steering too much" with no telemetry and no view of my left thumb. As I've said, I've tried many different lines, speeds etc and I don't think the radius of that corner is much different to many others in the game which could provoke the same result.

Literally hundreds of times I've done this now in different ways. I'm pretty comfortable with my conclusions based on what I and others have seen and the fact I can turn the effect on and off.

Whatever, I've documented my findings and invested enough of my time in this. It is what it is.

You sound like you do not take criticism well, you posted this thread then you should hear those who offer a different POV. Just to help you out, I went and did a couple of laps with the R.S 01 to show you that the corner can easily be tackled without issue and I'm not even comfortable with the Renault. These are literally my first two attempts after loading the track:

 

[250Cal]

You sound like you do not take criticism well, you posted this thread then you should hear those who offer a different POV. Just to help you out, I went and did a couple of laps with the R.S 01 to show you that the corner can easily be tackled without issue and I'm not even comfortable with the Renault. These are literally my first two attempts after loading the track:

You don't appear to be using TCS?

 

[GTFraker]

You don't appear to be using TCS?

No, just ABS.

 

[Outspacer]

That's my bad, I picked a couple of clips for ease of extraction rather than filtering through stacks of video on a clunky interface. In the second video, I believe 100% if TCS is on 2 or more, that's a spin. I take curb inside and out, am fairly abrupt on the controls but it pushes through.

Just pointing out to others that it doesn't take being up on the curb to cause it

The issue you describe at TCS 0 is, I think, the diff issue. I believe the TCS potentially pulls you into that by cutting power.

I'm not sure it's a diff issue, since I messed with diff settings and it didn't change that particular behaviour on the hairpin at all.

You sound like you do not take criticism well, you posted this thread then you should hear those who offer a different POV. Just to help you out, I went and did a couple of laps with the R.S 01 to show you that the corner can easily be tackled without issue and I'm not even comfortable with the Renault. These are literally my first two attempts after loading the track:

That's roughly the line I found to work. But at that speed (about 65kph / 40 mph minimum), even the huracan can straighten out earlier. The RS01 is just very very fussy at those slow speeds I guess... but is it 'right'? (Is any of GTS physics 'right'? )

 

[250Cal]

No, just ABS.

FFS. Read what's written.

I've no issue whatsoever in criticism of people helping to improve. I do find it harder to rationalise feedback where people haven't taken the time to read what they're providing critique on.

 

[250Cal]

I'm not sure it's a diff issue, since I messed with diff settings and it didn't change that particular behaviour on the hairpin at all.

I don't know enough about the game code/physics to comment. My thinking was similar to Minkihl's and is also based on what similar cars do IRL. I haven't tried to tune my way out of it as the issue is with races with locked settings.

 

[GTFraker]

That's roughly the line I found to work. But at that speed (about 65kph / 40 mph minimum), even the huracan can straighten out earlier. The RS01 is just very very fussy at those slow speeds I guess... but is it 'right'? (Is any of GTS physics 'right'? )

The issue is the stock setup, as somebody else rightly mentioned it has to do with LSD values - deceleration value particularly. As it stands, OP is wrong to call it a bug, for every car you take its behaviour into account and adjust accordingly, insisting on a faulty approach then being surprised when it doesn't work out is not sensible.

 

[Outspacer]

I don't know enough about the game code/physics to comment. My thinking was similar to Minkihl's and is also based on what similar cars do IRL. I haven't tried to tune my way out of it as the issue is with races with locked settings.

Yeah, Minkihl's thoughts are good for working around it but even so he says the diff change could be just for the last 10%, after lengthening 1st gear some (or shortening 2nd and using that instead, I suppose).

The issue is the stock setup, as somebody else rightly mentioned it has to do with LSD values - deceleration value particularly. As it stands, OP is wrong to call it a bug, for every car you take its behaviour into account and adjust accordingly, insisting on a faulty approach then being surprised when it doesn't work out is not sensible.

TBH being able to tune it out or drive around it doesn't mean there isn't a point at which GTS physics becomes rather too unrealistic... that the maths becomes stretched making it more binary than it perhaps ought to be. I mean, quirks with 7-speed cars (stock setup) seem to be a thing... the combination of crappy default diff with a very short gear could be at the extremes away from what the math is optimised for.

I'm just trying to discuss it, not saying it is bugged per se.

 

[praiano63]

You sound like you do not take criticism well, you posted this thread then you should hear those who offer a different POV. Just to help you out, I went and did a couple of laps with the R.S 01 to show you that the corner can easily be tackled without issue and I'm not even comfortable with the Renault. These are literally my first two attempts after loading the track:

OK.

In summary. This thread was started by a number or posters who had issues with the RS01 GT3 in one specific place - the hairpin at Suzuka. Having found this issue too, I found this thread hoping to find a solution. Sadly there wasn't one so I embarked on some testing myself and used input from various friends and posters to help zero in on the issue.

Test Conditions:-
BoP On - Issue seen in daily races and FIA event
Default settings for "Expert" (I have switched ASM on/off when exploring the issue)

I have tested this issue repeatedly driving back and forth around the hairpin using various approaches in terms of line, speed, gear, throttle, brake and steering applications. I have incremented and turned on and off the various aids available as part of this.

Video of issue being seen:



Notes from video:
This is one example of many I could use, the issue is similar under various conditions.
In this example I approach at race speed using normal braking points and lines. As you can see from the video I pick up the throttle early with a small application and the car spins.
You can see on the video that even a light throttle application causes TCS to cut in mid corner after which point the whole throttle bar flashes red.

Findings:
The issue is real and I can repeat it at will.
Following testing I can also switch it on and off.
The issue can be contained by use of ASM but at the cost of overall lap time.
The issue is exacerbated by tyre wear which would have an obvious effect on traction, grip and in-game physics and TCS.

My thoughts on this:
I believe there is an issue with the RS01 GT3, specifically related to the interaction between it and the driver aid TCS which, when set at Level 2 or above, cuts the power leaving the car susceptible to spinning due to the basic physics model and/or the diff setting. Once TCS is triggered releasing the throttle, accelerating or braking will have the effect - the rear end breaks away.

Given that it only happens in this specific hairpin the issue may also be triggered by the camber profile of this corner.

Further testing:
To validate this theory, I have repeatedly run with the TCS set at 1 or 0 (All other settings per "Expert default" i.e. no ASM) and found the car takes the corner more consistently. See video below where I deliberately throw the car in and am sharper on the throttle to invoke the issue and it does not occur. TCS cuts in, but the lower setting isn't so intrusive as to cut the power to trigger the problem.



Call it a bug, a characteristic, an issue, a glitch whatever - I personally think it shouldn't happen and there's a code issue which causes this to happen and could be fixed.

This really happen. I´ve just made a suzuka tune for this car and the only very critical point was the hairpin. The lost of rear grip out the turn is not normal. The only way to avoid it is to take it slow and round. The problem is that you loose a lot of time like this and for 2 reasons.
With any other GR3 car you have to make your turn in very late to the apex, to be inline for an early safe acceleration out corner. It´s not possible with this car because of the behavior described above.
The other problem is the low torque and power at low RPM of the engine. Both things don´t help at all. The good thing is that this car have a superior grip and catch the others in the others medium and high speed turns.
One thing i´ve found that can help is to have a max rear ride height. It seems safer out the hairpin.

 

[GTFraker]

This really happen. I´ve just made a suzuka tune for this car and the only very critical point was the hairpin. The lost of rear grip out the turn is not normal. The only way to avoid it is to take it slow and round. The problem is that you loose a lot of time like this and for 2 reasons.
With any other GR3 car you have to make your turn in very late to the apex, to be inline for an early safe acceleration out corner. It´s not possible with this car because of the behavior described above.
The other problem is the low torque and power at low RPM of the engine. Both things don´t help at all. The good thing is that this car have a superior grip and catch the others in the others medium and high speed turns.
One thing i´ve found that can help is to have a max rear ride height. It seems safer out the hairpin.

Yea, the Renault has great grip but its problem at low speed corners makes it a bad candidate for tracks like Suzuka, there are a few cars I would love for PD to adjust the stock setup to resolve some handling issues. That said, I don't want every car to handle the same way or fit every track.

 

[praiano63]

Yea, the Renault has great grip but it's problem at low speed corners makes it a bad candidate for tracks like Suzuka, there are a few cars I would love for PD to adjust the stock setup to resolve some handling issues. That said, I don't want every car to handle the same way or fit every track.

If it wasn´t the grip out slow corner problem, the car would be penalized by his weak torque and power at low RPM. I´ve tuned it with my 1.58.3xx Z4 ghost and it was very clear at this exact point of the circuit. The Z4 is flying away out hairpin (like most of the cars with a well setted gearbox) and make the difference.

 

[GTFraker]

If it wasn´t the grip out slow corner problem, the car would be penalized by his weak torque and power at low RPM. I´ve tuned it with my 1.58.3xx Z4 ghost and it was very clear at this exact point of the circuit. The Z4 is flying away out hairpin (like most of the cars with a well setted gearbox) and make the difference.

I love driving the Z4 in Suzuka, sticks to the track like glue and the gear ratios are practically perfect.

 

[250Cal]

Yea, the Renault has great grip but its problem at low speed corners makes it a bad candidate for tracks like Suzuka, there are a few cars I would love for PD to adjust the stock setup to resolve some handling issues. That said, I don't want every car to handle the same way or fit every track.

So now it is an issue?

 

[250Cal]

If it wasn´t the grip out slow corner problem, the car would be penalized by his weak torque and power at low RPM. I´ve tuned it with my 1.58.3xx Z4 ghost and it was very clear at this exact point of the circuit. The Z4 is flying away out hairpin (like most of the cars with a well setted gearbox) and make the difference.

I like this for two reasons. Firstly because, again, you're capturing the issue and the penalty associated with it and you have vast experience of methodically testing and tuning cars.

Secondly because your signature line couldn't be more relevant!

 

[Voodoovaj]

You don't appear to be using TCS?

I said that WAY back. TCS will make you spin in many cases. TCS makes a mess of your throttle control. In fact, I quoted the relevant part of what I said.

Except the ingame TCS works like crap compared to real TCS. Real TCS is barely noticeable. The game TCS is also stability control and it slows the car down.

I set a qualifying time last night of 2:00.4

I won two races from pole. No drama in that corner at all. In one race, I was even hit, which should have spun me out, but nothing.

Maybe, instead of calling other people names and insisting that you are perfect, you could show some humility and entertain the idea that you are potentially doing something incorrectly.

 

[250Cal]

I said that WAY back. TCS will make you spin in many cases. TCS makes a mess of your throttle control. In fact, I quoted the relevant part of what I said.



I set a qualifying time last night of 2:00.4

I won two races from pole. No drama in that corner at all. In one race, I was even hit, which should have spun me out, but nothing.

Maybe, instead of calling other people names and insisting that you are perfect, you could show some humility and entertain the idea that you are potentially doing something incorrectly.

I knew you'd be right one way or another.

 

[BSDShoes]

The car will still spin out even if you don't touch the throttle at all.

 

[Voodoovaj]

I knew you'd be right one way or another.

But you said this...

I've just stumbled upon this issue, specific to the hairpin at Suzuka.

With fixed settings this corner is impossible. I've tried different lines, gears, throttle and brake applications - the car just spins.

So we've gone from "impossible" to a common consensus that it may be a slight hindrance. Which is it?