Racing Etiquette?

[gapper59]

When attempting to pass a car on the inside of a turn, what is the most common answer to...
How far along side the car on the outside, do you have to be to have the right to be there?

I was surprised to see it wasn't in the Driver Etiquette section. I've heard answers from the
car behind needs his front wheel along side the front cars rear wheel, to front wheel along
side the front cars driver. Huge difference, seems to be a big gray area. I kinda split the
difference myself but I'm not really sure when I need to back down.

A lot of people seem to think that sticking their nose along side your rear bumper is good
enough, causing a lot of carnage and ruined races.

I realize that sometimes its just dirty driving, but maybe if there was a clear answer to this
it might cut down on some of the BS. I doubt it but I figured I'd throw it out there anyway.

 

[KONTRAone]

Unfortunately it will always be a bit of a gray area, so you're never going to get a straight answer. I guess a happy median would be half a car's length alongside, but I think that's somewhat irrelevant altogether. The way I see it, if two cars are alongside each other then they both have the responsibility to share the road.
I think we all agree that one should never lunge down the inside near or beyond the turn-in point, only before or under braking. But if they still do for whatever reason (be it lack of consideration, ability, or a combination of both) and the other driver can avoid contact then they should. However, the lunging driver should not capitalize on the other's compromise and should pull back when its safe to do so.
That's just my .02 though... Happy to discuss further

 

[kilesa4568]

Half a car overlap by the apex (not overshoot it) to be allowed to try and complete the pass. Anything less, you should back out as it's the leading car's corner.

N/A to sport mode though. There's DR on offer so any overlap is good enough for a lot of people to contest the corner.

 

[fastone371]

I think the way people should race is to have that 1/2 car overlap at the turn in point instead of apex. If you use apex many times you can stick your nose in and gain that overlap because you are taking the line away from the ahead car if he is driving in a sportsman like manner. I prefer to carry more speed on exit which causes my entry to be a little slower because I want control of my car thru the apex in case I need to adjust my line which also makes it easier for someone to dive bomb me, then I just wait for them to push up high so I can hopefully drive under them on exit.

 

[AdamMorcs]

If someone has there nose in your rear quarter panel even before the turn in point I'd say you should've defended the position more... there's space to put himself there so now you kind of have to give him space and ultimately the position. In sport mode I find it's crucial to defend your position . I'm an S-S driver btw.

 

[Famine]

How far along side the car on the outside, do you have to be to have the right to be there?

I was surprised to see it wasn't in the Driver Etiquette section.

That's because it's not applicable to GT Sport. There's no human stewards looking at and judging the overlap between cars and declaring who has the right to be where. Well, except in the live events.

GT Sport's penalty system simply doesn't care about cornering "rights". That's why the Etiquette section is quite vague, simply advising you to avoid contact as best you can, including from other people who are actually trying to hit you.

 

[sturk0167]

Sadly, you'll never have a full lineup of cars in a race that all follow the same rules. Do what ever you think is appropriate, but just don't expect to get the same in return, or you'll be disappointed and frustrated.

 

[05XR8]

Whenever you have the chance, keep racing. If you're fortunate to be in a room with some of the same players, you see which ones have good etiquette and others that have bad etiquette.

Even if every race have different players in it, usually by T1, you'll know how those around you race.
I find, if players don't block, there's more of a chance of players having cool heads.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Just don't do anything that will make you look BAD!

 

[Woodybobs]

I think any overlap by turn in entitles the following car to space at the apex. If I'm the following car it doesn't mean that every time I have overlap I should or will go for an overtake. If the leading car defends properly I won't be able to carry enough speed to overtake without contact. 1/2 car overlap means I'm very likely to go for the overtake.

If I'm defending and the car behind has a sniff of overtaking then I will squeeze the available space as much as possible. If they get an overtake done then fair play to them. If someone can get to the apex before me, without sliding past it or driving into me, I don't care how far back they've come from. To me that's just a good overtake.

It's impossible to have rules that cover all situations though. Awareness of what your opponent is doing, and what they're likely to do, is what's most important. Falling back on arbitrary rules causes problems. Racing is about making the right decisions. Attackers should make sure they don't initiate contact, defenders should be aware the might have to adjust their line so they don't initiate contact.

 

[O604]

I'm not an aggressive driver so my opinion may be biased.

I think of it like a pedestrian crossing a street. The general rule is the pedestrian has the right of way. But even with the right of way there is responsibility on the part of the pedestrian to not walk into traffic without looking before crossing.

So in the case above, the car in front, being passed is the pedestrian. They have the right of way. But that still means they have to cross with caution. Not automatically expect the other car to slow down or yield.

The driver doing the overtaking has the majority of the responsibility to slow down or yield accordingly. They're in the best position to make the situation safe or dangerous.

 

[VBR]

When attempting to pass a car on the inside of a turn, what is the most common answer to...
How far along side the car on the outside, do you have to be to have the right to be there?

I can only reiterate what others have said; what's considered 'sufficient overlap' differs between racing series, & thus between different GTS drivers. And, it hasn't even been defined at all for Sport Mode, which is incredibly stupid & irresponsible on the part of PD & the FIA imho!

Personally, I like The Skip Barber Racing School definition; "Our standard for rights to the line hinges on the relative positions of the cars at the approach to the corner. The SCCA rulebook says, "the responsibility for the decision to pass another car rests with the overtaking driver." If, at the brake point, your car is dead alongside the car you're trying to pass, the overtaken car is obliged to leave room for you and not simply turn into you at the turn-in-point. If, however, you are trying to pass but you're not quite alongside, as in having the front wheels up to the middle of the other car at the brake point, you haven't made the pass; it's your responsibility to get out of the way of the other car and yield the line in order to avoid a collision. The other driver might yield and give you room at the apex, but you can't count on it. He may not have even seen you if he hasn't been looking in the mirrors. If you're not alongside, you've got to expect to be "chopped", which is the racing term for another driver pulling across the nose of your car going to the apex." Quote from; Going Faster! Mastering The Art of Race Driving, Chapter 9 - Passing, page 141, paragraph 3.

If you're not alongside me in an online race in Gran Turismo, I may chop your nose off & will consider the fault for the contact to be yours. I may give room, but, only if chopping you off would result in my own car spinning out or getting damaged etc.


👍



EDIT: many years ago I wrote an article, that you may find of interest, specifically for Gran Turismo online & regarding racing etiquette, it's called: The Good Racecraft Guide.

 

[fastone371]

If someone has there nose in your rear quarter panel even before the turn in point I'd say you should've defended the position more... there's space to put himself there so now you kind of have to give him space and ultimately the position. In sport mode I find it's crucial to defend your position . I'm an S-S driver btw.

Defending your position to an aggressive move can often cost you time because you are not taking the optimum line. It also leaves you wide open to players who want complete that pass at all circumstances and you will find the passing driver using you as a wall to keep his car at the bottom of the track and may very likely lead to you getting SR downs or even time penalties. I choose to not aggressively defend, stick to the fastest line if possible and hope the other driver pushes up high at apex costing him speed to the next corner or maybe even watching him make a mistake and let me by again. I am not against taking part of the track away from another driver to limit their speed as long as it's not coming at the expense of causing contact but if the other driver wants to call me out at the end of the race I want to know that I drove in a fair manner and that I think most others would agree with if they watched the replay. Sometimes people forget it's just a game that is supposed to be fun.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

When attempting to pass a car on the inside of a turn, what is the most common answer to...
How far along side the car on the outside, do you have to be to have the right to be there?

I try not to assert myself on the inside line unless I'm half a car length next the outside car as we hit the braking zone. Besides just following an established FIAA standard of etiquette it also protects me if the outside car decides to try and clip my line by shutting the door on me. If they do decide to shut the door on me, it's fairly easy to line up near their quarter so I can punt them off of the track without receiving a penalty. To be clear, I'm not trying to punt them off of the track, I'm simply putting myself in a safe position to receive an impact should they try to smash me on the inside. The consequence of which is them getting punted off of the track.

I do however break this rule if I know that I have better tires than the other car. If my tires are better then I know that from 1 car length back that I can safely late brake pass them before the apex without incident. That's a very situational exception though.

As far as being the outside car, if they're there, then they are there. Even if they have only an inch of overlap on the inside, I need to respect it because more than likely they're going to try and do something stupid with that space. Usually if they are lining up by my rear flank approaching a turn, I'll slowly float to the middle of the track to make them think that I'm blocking the dive bomb. This makes them commit to the dive bomb at a sharp inside angle that will cause them to run wide and early on the exit. I then cut back to the outer edge of the track in time for the braking zone, where I brake late and line up a late apex pass as they shoot wide on their exit.

 

[fastone371]

I try not to assert myself on the inside line unless I'm half a car length next the outside car as we hit the braking zone. Besides just following an established FIAA standard of etiquette it also protects me if the outside car decides to try and clip my line by shutting the door on me. If they do decide to shut the door on me, it's fairly easy to line up near their quarter so I can punt them off of the track without receiving a penalty. To be clear, I'm not trying to punt them off of the track, I'm simply putting myself in a safe position to receive an impact should they try to smash me on the inside. The consequence of which is them getting punted off of the track.

I do however break this rule if I know that I have better tires than the other car. If my tires are better then I know that from 1 car length back that I can safely late brake pass them before the apex without incident. That's a very situational exception though.

As far as being the outside car, if they're there, then they are there. Even if they have only an inch of overlap on the inside, I need to respect it because more than likely they're going to try and do something stupid with that space. Usually if they are lining up by my rear flank approaching a turn, I'll slowly float to the middle of the track to make them think that I'm blocking the dive bomb. This makes them commit to the dive bomb at a sharp inside angle that will cause them to run wide and early on the exit. I then cut back to the outer edge of the track in time for the braking zone, where I brake late and line up a late apex pass as they shoot wide on their exit.

Exactly why I choose to be a little slower on entry so my car is still driveable at the apex and hopefully I make it up getting on the gas earlier.

 

[gapper59]

Thanks for all the really good reply's. Special thanks to VBR for posting his article.
I hope its available in Spanish.

 

[dabz343]

I too am struggling to understand why PD has yet to establish a robust racecraft framework...it should be part of their 2019 agenda. IMO, a sophisticated penalty system plus a foundational racecraft guide can only help PD's/FIA's longterm intentions for esports. Why have they not spent serious time here is beyond me.

I agree with most here. Both attacking and defending drivers must give each other reasonable room and rights throughout the corner. Tough to realize in a race if confusion lurks around the rules. From my experience, getting my nose past the driver seems to yield best results. He sees that I have overlap and usually gives space. Anything less has been problematic.

2 key moments for drivers to assess whether they have any rights to an upcoming corner.

1. Do you have sufficient overlap when initiating the brakes (entering the braking zone)?

• If yes, hold your line and try your best to out brake your opponent and judge whether you have freedom to play around the apex and corner exit. Be cautious though, as the other driver has the same rights if he is able to maintain a fair amount of overlap on you at the turn-in phase.
• If no, back out and choose the fastest (or preferred) line around the corner and prepare your car to attack the exit (or any other strategy).

2. While 90% of the situations can be resolved by assessing the positions of both cars entering the braking zone, sometimes the battle for rights may continue to the turn-in phase. This is where it gets a bit tricky and your skill to command your car in these situations is where drivers earn their stripes.

• If you don't quite achieve a reasonable overlap initiating your brakes, but are willing to gamble that you can out brake our opponent and get along side by the turn-in phase, then it's your responsibility to prove that theory by showcasing clinical aptitude to gain ground during the braking phase (for example - when you are on fresher tires). And as a result, if you achieve clear overlap by the turn-in phase, then both drivers must respect each other and make their way around the apex and exit without imposing on their respective lines.

Understanding and agreeing on corner rights is so fundamental to proper racing, again not sure why GTS is not addressing the need for racecraft governance...obviously the GTS community is not settled on a clear protocol.

Btw, the same logic and principles apply in reverse. If you are being passed, you also have to know when to back off as your rights have just evaporated. Hanging on to your lead by any means necessary is also poor racecraft and in my experience, causes just as much havoc as divebombers.

 

[VBR]

Another thing that would be helpful is a rear view mirror forced on for all views, you know, like real race car drivers have in order to facilitate clean racing, so they can see who's behind them & take appropriate action. Most views in GTS have no mirrors at all, & the unrealistic radar thingy isn't forced on either. T'is a recipe for disaster I tell thee!

Also, look left & right buttons should be forced on. Imho, you can't really race cleanly without them. I use them all the time when racing online.

There are 101 other innovative things they could do to encourage clean racing online, as shown by all the community feedback on here...

 

[05XR8]

Many find cockpit view difficult or unable to get the settings right, but it gives me a quick glance of cars behind and around me. Some cars don't have the correct field of view to glance at some of the outboard mirrors. However, having a quick glance at the rear view mirror, gives me a wealth of info, than having to use another button function in the heat of battle.

 

[dabz343]

I always found it helpful to see a deconstruction of real scenarios so here's one from Driver61.



Agree that visibility is an issue in GTS and instruments that could help drivers assess the positions of other cars should be developed by PD. iRacing has an audible warning that signals to drivers to maintain their line when side by side. It's seems like an effective attempt, but far from ideal. Perhaps an audible and visual hybrid cue could be imagined? GTS' radar is an attempt, but the scale and location of this prompt should be optimized so that drivers are able to utilize their peripheral vision and maintain focus on racing.

 

[VBR]

Special thanks to VBR for posting his article.
I hope its available in Spanish.

I'm afraid it's only available in Google Translate/Mutilate at present!

 

[O_Maverick_O]

I agree with what's been mentioned above. I personally am also a cautious driver in racing situations, and tend to try to avoid contact as much as possible, and not give the imperfect penalty system an opportunity of screwing me over.

When racing early on in a race, if I notice someone is catching up to me rapidly and their race pace is superior to mine, I will often be pretty passive and give the driver behind me an opportunity to pass me cleanly entering an apex, offering little resistance. Once he's past, I'll try to remain in his slipstream as long as possible to try to separate from the rest of the pack behind me.

The time loss I get from defending the position aggressively and not taking the optimal racing line, or wearing out my tires prematurely to try to keep up with his pace, is not worth defending the position. Aggressively defending is also a high-risk maneuver if the player you're racing against has aggressive tendencies, and is prone to dive-bombing or making contact in corners. I'll often let these types pass me just to avoid them ruining my race. It's often the case of losing one position, or losing 10 positions in a close race following contact with another driver attempting a pass.

Later on in the race, when there are a few laps to go, the risk of defending a position more aggressively is more worth it IMO. But when overtaking/defending, there is always a risk of contact if the pass if very close, I go more towards the side of avoiding contact and preserving my race. One mistake is all it takes.

 

[abrahamx]

Yep, we need mirrors, not radar.

If someone has there nose in your rear quarter panel even before the turn in point I'd say you should've defended the position more... there's space to put himself there so now you kind of have to give him space and ultimately the position. In sport mode I find it's crucial to defend your position . I'm an S-S driver btw.

If some one has their nose in your rear quarter panel are we still talking racing?............ Sorry, could not resist.

 

[GT_Alex74]

The amount of overlap is quite a tricky subject. Sure you can't expect to put just a wheel alongside the other car and call dibs on the line, but you also can't just turn in when someone has just a bumper alongisde you when he's coming hot already trying his best to slow down and expect things to end well for you and your car.

Common sense as defending car would be to give room to any car that is alongside you for even the slightest amount before turn-in point (and not braking point, otherwise you're just actually forbidding any attempt to try and outbrake someone), as basic survival instinct. This is only accounting for someone who has actually braked in a way that allows him to still make the corner and leave a one car wide space through it, you can't do much about someone coming from miles behind and crashing into you. If a car is alongside you before you started turning in though, in most cases you have all the cards in hand to avoid the contact, even if the guy came in a bit too hot.

Common sense as attacking car would be to back out of a move if the overlap came in shortly before turn in point and in a small amount, or in any case you're not sure the other guy was able to spot you.

 

[kilesa4568]

It's commendable that people race so fairly but sometimes it seems the line's getting blurred between the high risk real life racing and harmless virtual racing. Isn't the latter an opening to allow more aggression? I'm basing that on last years world final where PD turned a blind eye to some extremely aggressive tactics and were very lenient with penalty size when those tactics turned tits up and caused a collision. They obviously want close, action packed racing and with no guidelines other than the etiquette videos, they've left the door wide open to ramp the aggression up.

I'll be honest, I love driving aggressively and asking hard questions of the driver I'm currently racing. Always fair but if I get the chance to compromise someone's line or make them drive on their mirrors for a few corners, I'm more than happy to do so. I don't do it though as one man's (or woman's) aggression is another's dirty.

If I ever make it back to sport mode, I'm redefining my idea of overlap. Any small overlap by turn in, you're fair game for a pass attempt. Who's to say any different?

Time to play the racing game rather than pretend it's real racing as I'm bored to death of passive and safe.

 

[dabz343]

There is no wrong way to enjoy GTS. It's your choice. But for some, it's more than just a game.

 

[K3Tuning]

I can only reiterate what others have said; what's considered 'sufficient overlap' differs between racing series, & thus between different GTS drivers. And, it hasn't even been defined at all for Sport Mode, which is incredibly stupid & irresponsible on the part of PD & the FIA imho!

Personally, I like The Skip Barber Racing School definition; "Our standard for rights to the line hinges on the relative positions of the cars at the approach to the corner. The SCCA rulebook says, "the responsibility for the decision to pass another car rests with the overtaking driver." If, at the brake point, your car is dead alongside the car you're trying to pass, the overtaken car is obliged to leave room for you and not simply turn into you at the turn-in-point. If, however, you are trying to pass but you're not quite alongside, as in having the front wheels up to the middle of the other car at the brake point, you haven't made the pass; it's your responsibility to get out of the way of the other car and yield the line in order to avoid a collision. The other driver might yield and give you room at the apex, but you can't count on it. He may not have even seen you if he hasn't been looking in the mirrors. If you're not alongside, you've got to expect to be "chopped", which is the racing term for another driver pulling across the nose of your car going to the apex." Quote from; Going Faster! Mastering The Art of Race Driving, Chapter 9 - Passing, page 141, paragraph 3.

If you're not alongside me in an online race in Gran Turismo, I may chop your nose off & will consider the fault for the contact to be yours. I may give room, but, only if chopping you off would result in my own car spinning out or getting damaged etc.


👍



EDIT: many years ago I wrote an article, that you may find of interest, specifically for Gran Turismo online & regarding racing etiquette, it's called: The Good Racecraft Guide.

Says it all, as far as Sport mode some try to race no contact others don't care they will cut you off push you out and punt you into oblivion.

Is what it is

Careful getting into beefs, it can cost SR & DR

 

[kilesa4568]

But for some, it's more than just a game.

I believe that and I'm even guilty of it myself. I never wanted to look bad.

That sort of attitude transcends what real motor sport actually is though. Full of gamesmanship, opportunism and mano a mano. They have bills to pay and limbs at risk but it doesn't stop them 'having a go'. All we get for punishment is the occasional penalty for weird obscure reasons and the possibility of a few lost or gained points.

The ambiguous comment from the etiquette videos, 'don't do something that makes you look bad' really triggers some people's holier than thou character traits. All the "Judge me!" threads we see on here show how great the disparity is on what's bad and what isn't. Is that more important than a good hard race in a safe environment or do we care that much what others think of us, even if we know the tactic we used was valid?

 

[Woodybobs]

I think PD should have set some clear guidelines to follow in situations like overtaking and defending. At the moment people can really only look to rules set out for real racing series. IRL the rules regarding overlap only really apply when there is contact. If there's no contact, the further back a driver comes from the more we applaud the overtake. What makes this possible is the defending driver's determination to avoid contact. No driver wants to walk back to their team after a collision knowing they could still be in the race had they given up the spot. The stewards might absolve them of blame, but their team won't. In many cases it can be weeks before they get a chance to race again. In virtual racing it's much more likely that the door will be shut because the consequences aren't as severe.

In F1, Ricciardo is an expert (or he's just running hot in a game of chance) at bullying people into giving up places with lunges from way back. In the virtual world he'd find the door would be shut much more often and carnage would ensue. Perhaps acknowledging the differences between real and virtual racing would go some way to stop lunges from way back from people who are just trying to emulate the great overtakes they see in real motorsport.

 

[fastone371]

It's commendable that people race so fairly but sometimes it seems the line's getting blurred between the high risk real life racing and harmless virtual racing. Isn't the latter an opening to allow more aggression? I'm basing that on last years world final where PD turned a blind eye to some extremely aggressive tactics and were very lenient with penalty size when those tactics turned tits up and caused a collision. They obviously want close, action packed racing and with no guidelines other than the etiquette videos, they've left the door wide open to ramp the aggression up.

I'll be honest, I love driving aggressively and asking hard questions of the driver I'm currently racing. Always fair but if I get the chance to compromise someone's line or make them drive on their mirrors for a few corners, I'm more than happy to do so. I don't do it though as one man's (or woman's) aggression is another's dirty.

If I ever make it back to sport mode, I'm redefining my idea of overlap. Any small overlap by turn in, you're fair game for a pass attempt. Who's to say any different?

Time to play the racing game rather than pretend it's real racing as I'm bored to death of passive and safe.

I think it boils down to whether or not you can maintain good control of your car and not hit the car you are passing that decides if you are aggressive or dirty. I dont know how certain people can be proud of their wins when they leave a wake destruction behind them. If I am trying to make a pass for the win and I cut the corner too tight, go into the grass, slide up and knock the other car off track I am not going to take that win, I am giving that spot back, we see those moves happen often and it amazes me that someone breaks their arm patting themselves on the back for a cheap move like that. If you come from 2 car lengths back in the braking zone and drive down to the apex while not hitting me to steal the win I will be the first one to congratulate you on your move and win.