Racing incident opinion

I

IAMDOODLEBUG

171
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Just finished a race at Brands (race c with 15x tyre wear), but ate some turf and wanted critique! I spent 6 or so laps chasing down P1, gradually reeling him in with grip levels subsiding. I finally got my window of opportunity and took it, getting a great drive out of Surtees and was fully ahead by the braking point of Hawthorn. In my view he was never going to make the corner without cutting off my apex completely. I could have anticipated it however it is almost impossible to take such a high speed corner without getting near the apex. It's a racing incident and Im not too salty, more just looking for opinions on who was at fault and what I could have done to avoid it, or indeed, should I have done anything to avoid it given that there was no overlap?



 
I don't know if you really could've done much differently. Maybe left a little more room inside, but I don't think that would have mattered. If I was in the other car, I would've backed off and let you have the corner since you were clearly ahead. Absolutely no fault on your part.

This is always a scary corner to be on the outside. It looks like the other driver turned in too early, straightened out a bit and turned in again, but replays can be a bit deceiving. I don't think they meant to bump you off, but just carried in too much speed to hold the inside line.
 
When you're on the outside and don't know the other driver, let them go. I only try to keep an outside line if the track is wide or it's a slow corner. Otherwise, I prefer to pack off a bit and push for an overtake if I get a better corner exit.

But this is theory. Sometimes we all do some stuff that ends with us on the grass that we wouldn't do if we were watching from the outside. ^^
 
yeah tough call, definitely what real stewards would call a "racing incident".
Even though you were ahead, he had the inside line which is often seen as the preferred line because its closer to the apex. Opinions differ, of course.
Even though ahead, to make the apex you'd have to cut across his line, leaving him little room and options other than to brake hard, quite literally "shutting the door" on him, and he in turn has to know if you're doing that or going to go around the outside two wide. Trying to "read" other drivers isn't easy.
I think he might have misjudged the entry, made a bit of a mistake - he was moving around a lot coming off the previous left hander - and ran wider than intended.
Had I been inside I might have eased off more, tried for a faster run off the turn to get along side and inside at the next right hander. But then a lot of competitors are fiercer than I.
At the end, you were going for it, he was going for it, but in the end there can be only one. You see this in real racing all the time.
But kudos to you for not getting all steamed and aggro about it, and instead trying to analyse it.
Always, be the bigger man.
 
I saw you a full car length in front and on the optimum line while he's on the inside for a slower corner entry. Very little chance he'd get wheel to wheel from there without contact, especially on worn tires. Not malicious but it was a mistake on his part to try.

Alternatively, discretion may have been the better part of valour for you. His corner was compromised while you could have set up a nice cut back. Hindsight's a bitch eh?:P
 
zzz_pt
When you're on the outside and don't know the other driver, let them go. I only try to keep an outside line if the track is wide or it's a slow corner. Otherwise, I prefer to pack off a bit and push for an overtake if I get a better corner exit.

But this is theory. Sometimes we all do some stuff that ends with us on the grass that we wouldn't do if we were watching from the outside. ^^
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You on the outside??? No way, you're to busy cutting corners lol
 
IAMDOODLEBUG
Just finished a race at Brands (race c with 15x tyre wear), but ate some turf and wanted critique! I spent 6 or so laps chasing down P1, gradually reeling him in with grip levels subsiding. I finally got my window of opportunity and took it, getting a great drive out of Surtees and was fully ahead by the braking point of Hawthorn. In my view he was never going to make the corner without cutting off my apex completely. I could have anticipated it however it is almost impossible to take such a high speed corner without getting near the apex. It's a racing incident and Im not too salty, more just looking for opinions on who was at fault and what I could have done to avoid it, or indeed, should I have done anything to avoid it given that there was no overlap?
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If I was you what would I have done? If I felt I could do it safely I would have moved to the inside line right away to establish my dominant position. If I didn't feel it was safe, I would have let the guy on the inside go ahead. Not worth the risk on a slippery part of the track and the chance of contact is way too high unless it's a driver you already know really well.

What would I have done if I was your opponent? I would have backed off slightly early to show you that I was giving up the racing line because I didn't have any overlap.

Neither of those things happened. So now you're going through the corner side by side. He hugs the curb like it's his long lost dog. At impact he's still on the curb while you have moved across the track and left him zero room for error. Clearly your opponent is hugging the inside curb and giving you as much room as possible. Given that neither one of you lifted to let the other one move ahead, you're already in the position of side by side racing so it's your obligation to leave him enough room to negotiate the corner, as well as his obligation to do the same. Looks like he did and you didn't. You moved into him, made contact and got the worst of it.
 
zzz_pt
When you're on the outside and don't know the other driver, let them go. I only try to keep an outside line if the track is wide or it's a slow corner. Otherwise, I prefer to pack off a bit and push for an overtake if I get a better corner exit.

But this is theory. Sometimes we all do some stuff that ends with us on the grass that we wouldn't do if we were watching from the outside. ^^
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Agree with this.
Brands is really unforgiving if you run wide and over takes there really require cooperation, especially on the outside.
 
The other car could have backed out but he didn't. And why would he? there is enough room on that tarmac for both of you. You could have given him more room or shut the door. You probably didnt have enough room to shut the door without him slamming his brakes on though. Its a racing incident that that you could have avoided, the other driver could have too but he came out on top. As others have said, its just a racing incident.
 
I think it’s a racing incident in a very hard corner to pass. Probably a bit more his fault than yours.

However, if you’d have backed off, I have little doubt you would have lit him up on exit and had the inside line before the kink.
 
Nothing much you could've done. Objectively speaking, it was the other guy's fault for pushing you wide, but honestly I don't think it was his intention. What I see here is hard racing that lead to an unfortunate accident, and a calm driver who tried to learn from this situation.
zzz_pt
When you're on the outside and don't know the other driver, let them go. I only try to keep an outside line if the track is wide or it's a slow corner. Otherwise, I prefer to pack off a bit and push for an overtake if I get a better corner exit.

But this is theory. Sometimes we all do some stuff that ends with us on the grass that we wouldn't do if we were watching from the outside. ^^
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I would've done the same, except only if I know that the driver would dive into the inside. The other driver didn't have any overlap and even though he was not that far away from OP, the type of corner they were approaching would make you think that the other driver wouldn't try to dive into that corner. It'd be really hard to predict that move, so even though theoretically it's the best course of action, it'd be hard for OP to deduce that play given the situation
 
Senna52
I think it’s a racing incident in a very hard corner to pass. Probably a bit more his fault than yours.

However, if you’d have backed off, I have little doubt you would have lit him up on exit and had the inside line before the kink.
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I think it's hard to back off when you are as far ahead as he was though, I mean he almost has him cleared before the corner. Only thing I would have done is given him a little more room on the inside, but other than that it is entirely the responsibility of the driver to the inside not to over cook it into the corner. If he does, then he does.

One problem with backing out like you say is what if you don't get as good of a run as you hoped and you are suddenly in the same position as this guy on the inside of the first corner was? You just gave up your advantageous position for one that is not, and now the pressure is on you to not make a mistake and it is your decision to lift or to not lift. I agree with what you're saying and it is a useful tactic but that is just something to keep in mind when there's another right hander coming up so soon. If you're confident that you can get your nose past his before the entry of the next corner then go for it. It also depends on your familiarity with the driver you're racing against and your confidence in his skills. It's hard to weigh all these options in the heat of the moment though. It's easy for us to dissect this incident afterwards with time to think.
 
UGA95
I think it's hard to back off when you are as far ahead as he was though, I mean he almost has him cleared before the corner. Only thing I would have done is given him a little more room on the inside, but other than that it is entirely the responsibility of the driver to the inside not to over cook it into the corner. If he does, then he does.

One problem with backing out like you say is what if you don't get as good of a run as you hoped and you are suddenly in the same position as this guy on the inside of the first corner was? You just gave up your advantageous position for one that is not, and now the pressure is on you to not make a mistake and it is your decision to lift or to not lift. I agree with what you're saying and it is a useful tactic but that is just something to keep in mind when there's another right hander coming up so soon. If you're confident that you can get your nose past his before the entry of the next corner then go for it. It also depends on your familiarity with the driver you're racing against and your confidence in his skills. It's hard to weigh all these options in the heat of the moment though. It's easy for us to dissect this incident afterwards with time to think.
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I mostly agree with you and in real racing I would do what you are saying. However, in that corner, with someone I don’t know, I take it easy. This is lap 6, there is plenty of time to wait. If this is the last lap I might push it as well.

The guy in the inside has a compromised line into the corner, if you lift and coast, there is almost no way you won’t have way better drive out of the corner.

In the end though, like I said, this is just a racing incident and there is no time to think about all the options.
 
I concur, racing incident. Opponent seems to make a mistake on corner entry which he needs to correct.

I would say they had preference due to the inside line. The reason why i say this is after the kink he either reacts to you taking the outside line or purposely takes the inside line as a defensive move. Your move was high risk not being able to clearly overtake.
 
Cheers for all of the useful comments - I think every one of them makes a valid point, even if there are opposing views. If anything that confirms the fact that it was a racing incident and sits on the fence. It definitely wasnt malicious on his part, but we both had to make a decision after weighing up the options within a few seconds. I'll try it today, but I don't think it's possible/sensible to take that corner a cars width away from the apex on wearing tyres. If it is possible then I know for next time, but my suspicion is you'd have to scrub off so much corner speed that the exit would be poor on what is a high speed dection. In hindsight, I probably got over eager after catching him and making a good pass. The wise old man would have maybe anticipated the move and backed off to try again knowing he was faster and there would be perhaps other chances!
 
I had it pretty similar incident there yesterday in another race, trying a similar overtake, it happens. In my case I was only slightly clipped and got through fine and went on to win but it could have easily been different, especially if my opponent wanted to cause a crash, luckily he didn't. The thing is you can only wait so long before you turn in there, unless you want to crawl through the corner, so the guys on the inside know you have to turn in on them and should back off, especially when you get your whole car in front of them, they also have no chance of making the corner at normal speed from there and it was them that made a mistake in the first place which made the overtake possible, it's not like you pushed them off. It's racing you can't not go for it and they might not make an error like that again.
 
IAMDOODLEBUG
Cheers for all of the useful comments - I think every one of them makes a valid point, even if there are opposing views. If anything that confirms the fact that it was a racing incident and sits on the fence. It definitely wasnt malicious on his part, but we both had to make a decision after weighing up the options within a few seconds. I'll try it today, but I don't think it's possible/sensible to take that corner a cars width away from the apex on wearing tyres. If it is possible then I know for next time, but my suspicion is you'd have to scrub off so much corner speed that the exit would be poor on what is a high speed dection. In hindsight, I probably got over eager after catching him and making a good pass. The wise old man would have maybe anticipated the move and backed off to try again knowing he was faster and there would be perhaps other chances!
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Yeah, if you know your faster than someone, often it's better to just pile on the pressure and let them make a mistake so you don't have to do all that much.
I love Brands because it's so unforgiving but once you learn it you can push and pressure really hard and have some great fights
 
ASH32
It's racing you can't not go for it and they might not make an error like that again.
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Sure you can, it's called racecraft. Only amateurs think you have to go for it every time. Professionals know how to weigh the risks and rewards and have learned how to live to fight another day...or another corner if you want to use a racing analogy instead. The odds of making a pass like that stick on that track in that corner while on the outside are near zero. The odds of something bad happening to the car on the outside are much higher.
 
Johnnypenso
Sure you can, it's called racecraft. Only amateurs think you have to go for it every time. Professionals know how to weigh the risks and rewards and have learned how to live to fight another day...or another corner if you want to use a racing analogy instead. The odds of making a pass like that stick on that track in that corner while on the outside are near zero. The odds of something bad happening to the car on the outside are much higher.
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I'm not saying go for every move and I'd argue the OP was past on that occasion, so the other car is the overtaker and should have more of a responsibility to avoid a crash. If we back out all time it encourages others to not accept they have been past and aggressively defend the inside every time, like the opponent in the op and then just throw it down the inside and use the other car to help keep on track if need be.

You've also got a split second to decide to corner (and maybe get the place or get knocked off) or to back out and maybe you'll get him another time and maybe you won't. The other guy had the entire straight to do that, knowing he was slow on the exit and contact was highly likely if he didn't lift and slot in behind.
 
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rex1825
Good thing is noone got hurt... :)
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Haha only my hopes of adding to the tally of wins! Would have been a decent win too as he was a good few seconds ahead at one stage! Luckily it didn't completely destroy my race, think I came third in the end :)
 
IAMDOODLEBUG
Haha only my hopes of adding to the tally of wins! Would have been a decent win too as he was a good few seconds ahead at one stage! Luckily it didn't completely destroy my race, think I came third in the end :)
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...it is a game, you cannot expect that everyone is clean driver, get punned of many times, similar to what happen to you. Would like to see those in real race cars, if they have guts to do it like that :D

Cheers and have fun...
 
You were past, had the racing/preferred line... "I" did not see him "on the curb"... I saw him push out, make contact, and that's all she wrote.
It was his responsibility to keep his car down low and avoid contact.
You left him room... tight, but there was room, he was carrying too much speed to get through there with a car on his outside.
This is a case of people just not willing to acknowledge they've been passed.
You could have left a little more room, but, you left enough.

This is another one of those cases where many of us are making excuses for bad decisions by someone that has clearly been passed...
It's a shame the penalty system has us making way, and making excuses, for people making bad decisions.
 
cleanLX
You were past, had the racing/preferred line... "I" did not see him "on the curb"... I saw him push out, make contact, and that's all she wrote.
It was his responsibility to keep his car down low and avoid contact.
You left him room... tight, but there was room, he was carrying too much speed to get through there with a car on his outside.
This is a case of people just not willing to acknowledge they've been passed.
You could have left a little more room, but, you left enough.

This is another one of those cases where many of us are making excuses for bad decisions by someone that has clearly been passed.
Click to expand...

...or maybe he was driving on DS4, and it is pretty hard to control car in those situations on a controller. :)
 

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