- 3,524
- Canada
We can go on about corner rights and overlap all day, but an easy test is, if everyone does it how does the race look? Itd be bedlam.
Rate my lunge. JUDGE ME!
- Thread starter CapraKiwi
- 48 comments
- 3,100 views
- 3,053
- England
- kilesa4568
The 1st move was a Ricciardo special (made the apex nicely) after the other guy chose not to defend T1 or to plan an easily made run at getting the place back. In fact, they looked like they were napping as they took their natural racing line and drove into the OP as if he wasn't there on the exit. Opportunistic and could have so easily gone wrong but it was nicely done.
The 2nd lunge was fugly. The less said about that one the better...
These lunges and dives will always be contentious as we've all got our own level of aggression for our race craft and what we'd deem acceptable. I'd have been tempted to try the 1st lunge (door wide open) but I wouldn't try it in case I got it wrong. Typical Nurb T1 really. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.
The 2nd lunge was fugly. The less said about that one the better...
These lunges and dives will always be contentious as we've all got our own level of aggression for our race craft and what we'd deem acceptable. I'd have been tempted to try the 1st lunge (door wide open) but I wouldn't try it in case I got it wrong. Typical Nurb T1 really. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.
- 14
- London
- 262
- Iceland
- 2,392
- UK
- TPC_Watto
I really think the terms divebombing and lunging are overused. When does out braking an opponent become a dive bomb? If the car in front brakes early you're often left with no option but to make a move just to avoid a collision (not that that's relevant here).
The first one you were fairly late on the brakes but made the apex under control. Yes it was a late move but the other car showed little spatial awareness. He SHOULD have seen you coming but as it was made needless contact at the apex and then drove into the back of you afterwards nearly spinning themselves out.
The second one was a little less clear cut as it was an even later move, but again you were under control the entire time. I would have been a little unhappy if I was the other driver but not loads.
I think my definition of a dive bomb is a move that has no chance of making a corner either without contact or other car(s) having to take serious evasive action. Leaving a car width at the apex not being a serious evasive action.
Regardless, you have my respect for posting this here and inviting the criticism and feedback. Consider yourself JUDGED
The first one you were fairly late on the brakes but made the apex under control. Yes it was a late move but the other car showed little spatial awareness. He SHOULD have seen you coming but as it was made needless contact at the apex and then drove into the back of you afterwards nearly spinning themselves out.
The second one was a little less clear cut as it was an even later move, but again you were under control the entire time. I would have been a little unhappy if I was the other driver but not loads.
I think my definition of a dive bomb is a move that has no chance of making a corner either without contact or other car(s) having to take serious evasive action. Leaving a car width at the apex not being a serious evasive action.
Regardless, you have my respect for posting this here and inviting the criticism and feedback. Consider yourself JUDGED
- 14
- London
I've watched the video a couple of times. At first, I thought the overtake on the Lexus was marginal but fine (made more so by virtue that their 'ramming response' was much worse!). The second overtake however, well... let's just say it wasn't your finest hour.
Ultimately, I think both examples (your overtaking the Lexus and the Nissan) were risky manoeuvres that rely heavily on the defending car seeing you at least three car lengths back and yielding early in order to avoid contact. It reminded me of something Martin Brundle once said about Ayrton Senna. It was along the lines of "With every over taking manoeuvre, Ayrton would leave the decision up to you as to whether you would have an accident or not."
On the other hand, I do want there to be racing. Good, entertaining racing. I'm not sure you can have that without risks... and for me, the best overtakes I've seen have definitely involved taking a risk.
CapraKiwi 'took a risk' with the first... but 'took the piss' with the second.
Ultimately, I think both examples (your overtaking the Lexus and the Nissan) were risky manoeuvres that rely heavily on the defending car seeing you at least three car lengths back and yielding early in order to avoid contact. It reminded me of something Martin Brundle once said about Ayrton Senna. It was along the lines of "With every over taking manoeuvre, Ayrton would leave the decision up to you as to whether you would have an accident or not."
On the other hand, I do want there to be racing. Good, entertaining racing. I'm not sure you can have that without risks... and for me, the best overtakes I've seen have definitely involved taking a risk.
CapraKiwi 'took a risk' with the first... but 'took the piss' with the second.
- 1,435
- Kansas City/MO/US
- BallPtPenTheif
- BallPtPenTheif
This is actually a great point that illuminates precisely how severe this barge pass line is. I know we're playing a video game and that drastically changes the gaming dynamics but fundamental race etiquette is built upon a mutual respect for each driver's lives and financial investment into their cars.
In regards to the pass again...
Yes, in hindsight OP's first pass attempt is not a dive bomb because he didn't hit or rub the other car to the outside. However, the outside car's brake mark was early and the OP had no idea that the outside car's early brake would yield a successful barge pass. The outside car had apex rights and the OP should have reasonably expected the outside car to cut to the apex which would result in a collision. The only reasonable expectation out of that pass from that position, is a collision at the apex, which in this game, the inside car tends to not care about because they will usually come out as the bumper car winner from that exchange.
For that course, if two cars are going to go into that turn they need to be side to side on the outside with the inside car braking slightly earlier in order to leave exit room for the outside car. That's the only clean way to go two wide through turn 1 there.
Barging up the inside is a horrible line primarily due to lost time, impeding the exit line, and interrupting the natural trail brake line that all of the normal drivers will take through that turn. It's not the worst thing in the world as tons of gamers do it all of the time and usually you just late apex and pass them on the inside exit but ultimately that's a gamer line, not a racing line.
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- 3,524
- Canada
I disagree.
Just because you make the apex without over running it doesn't make it right. When someone lunges from so far back and nmake the apex they are inevitably at a near stand still on the apex, contributing to a collision. I don't think the lead car has a responsibility to "see you coming" either, it's just so far back that it is more than reasonable to take the racing line and more importantly, the braking is so late and aggressive from the second car that the lead car is already in the motion of taking the apex, this is why they collide.
- 2,392
- UK
- TPC_Watto
I completely respect your opinions on this and I don't really disagree. There is an art to overtaking and actually neither of these are shining examples of good overtaking. However there is also an art to being overtaken that is often not talked about, and the first incident I think the lead car could and should have done a lot better. If they just left a bit of room they would have got a much better exit, would have been on the inside for the next corner, and the overtake wouldn't have worked. That's where the skill of being a lead car comes in. In the second incident, I'm sure the lead car didn't realise (understandably) the attempted overtake was happening until it was too late, and that is indeed poor racing.
- 3,524
- Canada
It's kind of weird for me to take the position i have on this given my absolute belligerent position on the responsibility of the outside man to leave space for racing. To me that's rule number one, leave space, at all times, to encourage racing. I just feel he's too far back here, even the first example.
- 7
- Yorkshire
Disagree on pass number one. If you make the apex ahead, its clean. Its a block pass. Not pretty agree, but legal.
Pass number two was too much though.
- 3,053
- England
- kilesa4568
Exactly.
- 1,435
- Kansas City/MO/US
- BallPtPenTheif
- BallPtPenTheif
A block pass is when you out brake someone to beat them to the apex. OP is cutting on the inside with a barge pass by taking the geometrically shorter route to the apex. He's not even near the racing line. Considering the apex rights of the lead car, it's a dangerous move that he only got away with because the outside driver ended up taking longer to get there or backed off.
The only difference between a block pass and a barge pass is wether or not the trailing car is on or off the racing line. OP wasn't near the racing line.
Now, to muddy the waters for fun, why would I criticize the OP's pass so harshly while praising this brilliant pass by Daniel Ricciardo in the Azerbaijan Grand Prix?
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- 6,764
- Ontario
- SvennoJ
- SvenZ
The following is from another forum -ukgpl.com. Same message, with pictures.
Corner Rights
If you watch the odd few GPL drivers in action you might think the rule for corner rights goes something like, " Whatever piece of ground I can barge my way into I have the right to ". Well, ... not so. There is actually an etiquette for corner rights. It's not just for GPL, or racing sims, but is basically the same for every level of real-world motor racing - from Formula Ford to Formula 1 and everything in between. " What ! ", you say. " You mean I don't have the right to throw my car into any gap I see ? ". Actually no, you don't - and if you raced in any real-world competition the way you may race in GPL, instead of being hailed as a motor racing genius you may find yourself banned from even the lowest levels of the sport. Some of the everyday things you see in GPL simply aren't tolerated where real cars are damaged, real money is the cost of repair, and real lives are at risk.
In brief, the concept is, you must establish substantial overlap with the car ahead before a corner's turn-in point to have the right for room to be left for you by the ahead driver. Substantial overlap means at least that the front of your car is up to say the driver's position in the ahead car - and that's at the very least. You probably should have more in many circumstances. The ahead driver has ever right to be fully committed to the racing line of his choice without any interference if there was no overlap before he turned in.
If sufficient overlap is established before the turn-in point, then the behind driver has the right to room. The ahead driver can still battle for the place of course but must do so from a wider-out position, leaving room for the behind driver.
You can see here why overlap established after the turn-in point isn't really valid and therefore isn't honored in car racing rules. Its actually false overlap that's created by the turning movements of the cars. Its not due to one being faster than the other or one out-braking the other. In positions 1, 2, and 3, below, you can see that the Lotus has no overlap at all if you consider the straight ahead direction - shown by the blue lines. But if you take a perpendicular from the attitude of the cars, shown by the red lines, there is some overlap at position 2 and substantial overlap at position 3. This overlap is entirely false of course as the Lotus here hasn't actually out-braked or out-sped the Eagle by any amount what-so-ever - as I hope you can see form this diagram. Unfortunately many drivers think that if they do this they are some kind of out-braking genius, when in fact they are not out-preforming the other driver at all. Its a geometric illusion that has nothing to do with a driver's ability or performance. If they could really out-brake the other, they would have made some overlap before the turn-in point, not after it.
1 Before the turn-in point there's no overlap - therefore the Lotus has no right to room or to interfere with the Eagle's normal racing line in any way.
2 But, as often happens, the Lotus sees this empty zone along the inside and thinks they can zoom up into it, probably believing this to be the move of a talented racing genius.
3 Its possible to get apparent overlap after the turn-in point. The point is you shouldn't.
4 The Lotus may actually achieve their objective, forcing the Eagle out wide, who may actually not press the issue for the sake of not crashing - if they can.
5 But, if the Eagle doesn't back away, and holds their line, as they're entitled to do, this is what happens as often as not.
The issue is that the Eagle has the right to be fully committed to the racing line. In this case, the entire inside area ought to have been a no-go zone for the Lotus, who should have tucked in behind and followed the Eagle around. Of course, late braking barge drivers often end up in the hay bails, hopefully without taking you with them.
Thanks for the very clear guide. Checking the first pass again:
Significant overlap is not established until the 3rd picture in the sequence 1:58.58, that's well beyond the turn in point.
In the 4th picture it looks like you are ahead yet it's actually side by side.
Due to the different angles between the 2 cars you are ahead when you step onto the kerb at the apex while slowing down to 50 kph.
Then the last picture is how much room you 'planned' to leave for going 2 wide. While one car width is technically enough, for a dive manoever like this it's more expected of you to turn on the apex. The contact probably impeded your turning a bit, however the angle you had at the apex did not suggest a full turn there. Plus hitting the kerb likely affected your turn a lot more.
The other car could have easily avoided a collision, yet in the end, you had no corner rights.
I'd say you would have needed to be another 1.5-2 car lengths closer on both occasions for it to be fair to attempt an overtake. I also wouldn't drive straight towards the apex from 150m out either. I like to place myself just on their inside, giving them just enough track either side so we don't touch and they don't touch grass under braking and make my move from there.
Veinz
Premium
- 5,233
- Ontario
The first one is borderline dirty but it looks relatively ok, I'm surprised that the Lexus didn't seem to know you are there, you weren't in his mirrors so where else would you be? The second one on the GTR is a classic divebomb though, you were going in there pretty hot on a really acute angle, I'm guessing you would have probably went wide and hit the cones if you didn't nudge the other car.
All in all though, I watched pro drivers do worse during the recent Bathurst 12 hour race.
All in all though, I watched pro drivers do worse during the recent Bathurst 12 hour race.
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I'll admit that I exaggerated my original response. The first move was in fact reasonably clean by Gran Turismo Sport standards, but the point I was trying to make is that you shouldn't think that every hard braking zone is a chance to pass from several lengths back. This mentality leads to moments like the second divebomb, and whilst GTS is far from a 100% clean racing environment, those moves are never smiled upon.
It's been a while since I've actually been divebombed like this, and I think I can thank the region split, as I don't do many dailies these days, and in FIA races all of the same players usually end up racing other and thus are extra careful to not pick up a bad rep.
It's been a while since I've actually been divebombed like this, and I think I can thank the region split, as I don't do many dailies these days, and in FIA races all of the same players usually end up racing other and thus are extra careful to not pick up a bad rep.
- 745
- Antarctica
I have no problem with your first overtake. I think you could've stayed behind a bit longer before pulling out to make the move more certain. Theres no need to get so close to the corner either as you were inviting the player behind to cut back on you. Thing is that if the player that hit you had been more aware they'd have seen your move coming and likely got you back before the next corner without that much time loss for them.
The second one is 100% divebomb. Go sit on the naughty step and watch the "how not to look bad" videos again. That should be punishment enough.
The second one is 100% divebomb. Go sit on the naughty step and watch the "how not to look bad" videos again. That should be punishment enough.
