Realistic Tyre Model - wear, temp, damage, conditions, pressure, etc

[dr_slump]

More Realistic Tyre Model in GT6 Updated! (10. May 2013)

I must say I'd really like to see crucial improvements in this area for coming GT titles. Funny thing: Even Shift 2 made it better... lol
Here I listed some major points and what my suggestions are:

Tyre Temperatures

No actual tyre temperatures measured.
It's just a simple drive in from cold to warm, once warm they'll barely cool down anymore though.
Possibility of overheating (yes tyres in GT5 do certainly turn red if you spin them, but that's not my point)

Varying temperatures, depending on factors such as aggressive/smooth driving, spin, skid, surface temperature, dryness/wetness, stress, etc with direct influence on the present grip level, tyre wear and alternatively damage.

We should have tyres with more various ideal temperature ranges to each other.

Tyre Damages

The current system simply let's us start with 100% unused tyres with full grip, which then slowly wear out and start suffering from worse grip simultaneously.
The big downside is that it almost linearly decreases to 0% (fully black tyres), which then results in a completely undriveable traction level (which makes sense though). Linearly in case of grip related to wear, not tyre wear per time.

Real tyre damage doesn't exist, even with completely worn out tyres you're able to endlessly continue driving.

Grip levels of tyres should never drop that far, on average tracks it shouldn't be more than a few seconds. If you drive way too long on the same set of tyres it should result in a damage, as example a simple flat tyre or even a burst under certain circumstances.
Seriously I could go on and on, but things like air pockets, circumferential wear, rim bruise/pinch fracture, tread detachment, etc may be too much for a game!
I definitely do not want any random and/or unpredictable damages! It'd also need a new indicator in the HUD for it.

Weather Influences

Weather conditions do poorly affect performance. What about differing ambient temperatures and thus differing surface temperatures affecting performance? What about extreme wetness causing aquaplaning (hydroplaning) especially while driving on slicks?
What about rain causing a massive temperature drop? And on the other side rain tyres which overheat due to drying track conditions?

I could also talk about partial dry and wet spots/sectors on one and the same track, puddles, inconsistent rain drop, etc. But that's better discussed in a separate topic.

Aquaplaning, lower temperatures or overheating of rain tyres when the surface is drying. Slicks should be deadly in rain conditions. But I admit, the most important part of this is actually the track specific one, the points I listed in the paragraph above.

Unequal Tyre Wear

I'm strictly not talking about unequal tyre wear between front, rear, left, right tyres!
It's about uneven abrasion on one single tyre. The game takes tyres as one equal thing, although factors such as camber and roll have massive effects on respective parts of a tyre.

Stupid camber angles and massive roll caused by super soft suspension settings should have dramatic consequences on wear. Also, the following part should be taken into consideration.

Flat Spots

Some people like driving without ABS, many cars do not even have ABS in real life.
If you lock up the wheels in GT5 you may get a slightly worse wear, but beside of that nothing dramatic, you'd have to worry about, happens.

This will quickly show who the clever drivers are who drive with foresight. Excessive lock ups could result in damaging of your tyres. I don't think I have much to say about this, it should be quite clear.

Tyre Pressure

Non existant in Gran Turismo, simple.

We need it! Less pressure resulting in more grip through increased contact patch, increased wear, higher temperatures, faster heating up, but also the danger of having it too low, which then could result in a fatal tyre damage. Possibly also a little spongier feedback and behavior when using very low settings.
High pressure will cause the opposite, of course.
It should actually be well-known what it does and what not.

Tyre Deformation

Tyres are not solid blocks of rubber, the are flexible across all axis which has a huge effect on how tyres behave and until the GT series includes it in a meaningful way all the above will be nice but not enough.

If not just talking about deformation from weight or cornering forces here either, but acceleration forces and contact patch changes as well.

Must be added

Correct Tyre Dimensions

Seems as PD never took different tyre dimensions between front and rear axle into account. They most likely didn't use tyre data at all and simply used some ultimative overall grip level numbers.

PD needs to observe real tyre dimensions for all cars in GT. It's the key element for a decent, really tyre based dynamic physics model. An absolute must for advanced physics.

Tyre Pick-up

Cars already suffer from slightly reduced grip after driving through dirt, but it could need improvements.

Although already in GT5, it could get refined and visual effects should be added. Optionally the pickup of marbles when driving aside the ideal driving line.

Track Rubbering-in

Non existant in GT titles.

Rubbering-in is a process by which tyre rubber is deposited on the track as a result of continuous driving. It basically forms a layer of rubber on the tarmac, mainly on the racing line. That rubber layer lets the tyres grip better and following the lap times will constantly decrease. It also positively affects tyre wear rates. Heavy precipitation will slowly return track conditions to how it was at the beginning.
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If you have any other suggestions, please post them. Critics and thoughts are appreciated as usual.

 

[IceMan PJN]

Add marbling, track rubber-in, and tire pickup (putting a wheel in gravel picks up gravel on the tire.)

 

[dr_slump]

Add marbling, track rubber-in, and tire pickup (putting a wheel in gravel picks up gravel on the tire.)

Marbling might be a little over the top, don't you think? The rubber-in is a good suggestion, although it has more to do with track conditions than the actual tyre model I want to discuss in this thread.

With tire pickup you mainly mean to get dirt on the track or more the temporary decrease of traction? Or both?

 

[CJSpencer77]

At the time of posting 9 people have voted for more tyre features than those Dr_Slump has posted, but no one other than IceMan has mentioned any ?

I for one think that Dr_Slump has it about right, these are the kind of things that make a game more imersive, Project C.A.R.S for instance has flat spots, heat related tyre effects, tyre flex and deformation, if you rev the hell out of the engine youll blow it up, its also possible to cook your brakes, etc. etc., there are too many features to list here.

The GT series has so much right but the level GT5 is at means that with GT6 PD have to decide wether to go sim or arcade, hopefully itll go sim and just make it possible for the people who dont want that level of realism to just turn those features off.

 

[Foxiol]

Copy and Paste rFactor 2 tyre physics and we are done.

 

[Wolfe]

The tire model in Live for Speed has localized temperatures and wear (radially and laterally), flat spots, burst/flat tires from too much heat or wear, and adjustable and variable air pressure, all in an engine that can be run at 60fps on a cheap laptop with an integrated graphics chip.

I agree with the improvements you've listed. 👍 For anything willing to bill itself as The Real Driving Simulator, there's no excuse to skip over them.

 

[Scaff]

Marbling might be a little over the top, don't you think? The rubber-in is a good suggestion, although it has more to do with track conditions than the actual tyre model I want to discuss in this thread.

With tire pickup you mainly mean to get dirt on the track or more the temporary decrease of traction? Or both?

All the above and marbling (which would certainly not be over the top), you have however missed a biggie.

Tyre Deformation.

Tyres are not solid blocks of rubber, the are flexible across all axis which has a huge effect on how tyres behave and until the GT series includes it in a meaningful way all the above will be nice but not enough.

If not just talking about deformation from weight or cornering forces here either, but acceleration forces and contact patch changes as well.

Edited to add - Oh and it would be nice this time around if we could actually have tyre width making a difference and the ability to change tyre sizes as well.

 

[Jawehawk]

Would absolutely love to have all these things in the game. In fact, I'd almost say that they would be required for the next game. However, I do have a minor note about one of the things mentioned in the thread. GT5 does currently simulate tire pickup to some extend. Though perhaps not as much as it should.

In short. Driving over grass or gravel in GT5, does result in a decrease of grip.

 

[dr_slump]

I'll edit the OP a little later tonight. Also, I'll probably a add some graphics and pics then to make it look better.

Good suggestions guys, thanks for the input.



EDIT:
Minor edit of OP, had no time for something bigger.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Lots of work can be done in the area of tires and so long as it can be toggled on and off I'm all for it. You can't expect millions of casual gamers who just want to get into a car and race to have to deal with the subtle intricacies of the various aspects of tire optimization and wear. You'll need at least 3 tire wear settings in lobbies and lounges. No tire wear, "arcade" (current system) and full realism.

 

[Jawehawk]

Lots of work can be done in the area of tires and so long as it can be toggled on and off I'm all for it. You can't expect millions of casual gamers who just want to get into a car and race to have to deal with the subtle intricacies of the various aspects of tire optimization and wear. You'll need at least 3 tire wear settings in lobbies and lounges. No tire wear, "arcade" (current system) and full realism.

Or better still, the people who don't want the realism, could stay away and play another game. I'm all for decreasing the user base if it means getting rid of people who shouldn't be theree in the first place. Just my opinion of course.

 

[Spagetti69]

Or better still, the people who don't want the realism, could stay away and play another game. I'm all for decreasing the user base if it means getting rid of people who shouldn't be theree in the first place. Just my opinion of course.

Whilst I'm all for better calculations I'm not for elitism. This reminds me of the rewind debate. Options are there for everyone to get enjoyment.

After reading the list for tire improvements, it hit home how basic they are in current form.

 

[Jawehawk]

Whilst I'm all for better calculations I'm not for elitism. This reminds me of the rewind debate. Options are there for everyone to get enjoyment.

After reading the list for tire improvements, it hit home how basic they are in current form.

It's not about elitism. It's about making the game fun for the core audience of the specific title. There are a ton of arcade and semi-sim games out there. But actual sims are few and far in between. The way I see it is that if you have a bunch of people with different ideas on how to play something, it won't be fun for anyone. Where as if you have a group of people with the same desires, everyone will have fun.

Different games require different play styles. A Racing sim should be serious, and not have people ramming each other off the track. Just like a game like ARMA shouldn't have people playing it like it was Call of Duty. Such players would ruin the game.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Like comparing SOCOM to COD , but if GT6 have complete driving physics customization and online lobby options to suit each physics level with good lobby search/filter, then all good for me.

 

[CJSpencer77]

Or better still, the people who don't want the realism, could stay away and play another game. I'm all for decreasing the user base if it means getting rid of people who shouldn't be theree in the first place. Just my opinion of course.

Lol Jawehawk that is really elitist, ( but i secretly agree )

 

[Jawehawk]

Lol Jawehawk that is really elitist, ( but i secretly agree )

But it's not!

I don't consider myself better than them in any way. I just think they need to play games that are better suited for what they want to do. And there are plenty out there.

 

[Exorcet]

But it's not!

I don't consider myself better than them in any way. I just think they need to play games that are better suited for what they want to do. And there are plenty out there.

What if nothing is better suited than GT? For car selection alone, there isn't much competition. And of course turning off aspect of the simulation isn't limited to being an arcade feature. It can be useful for car testing and other things so there is a reason for the option to exist even when not considering more casual players.

Including more players won't reduce the size of the serious sim crowd. It might even cause that number to grow. If you only want to deal with one group, then just stick to that one group.

 

[jabofu]

Like comparing SOCOM to COD , but if GT6 have complete driving physics customization and online lobby options to suit each physics level with good lobby search/filter, then all good for me.

Eitherway they should tone down the physics to a basic level completely or simulate everything properly. Something inbetween is not really great neither for the casual driver nore for the simulation-fanatic. And when they put such options in the game, they should not advertise it as the real driving simulator.

GT5 is already toned down in some physic departments. There is barely snap oversteer, you cant lock up your rear tyres by shifting down (let alone the problem that you cant shift up under heavy acceleration with the clutch), the degree of steering is toned down while countersteering and so on. You can drive 800 ps cars with ease over the ring, without getting in trouble. I dont see anyway of how GT could get more accessible...

I also want a good tyre model for GT6. If you know the models from Forza 4 or rFactor 2, it is a must. And it wont make the driving harder, it actually makes it easier, because you feel a better connection between the car and the track. It actually would'nt just make GT more realistic, but also more accessible, because there will be more and better feedback to the driver. It means, you will be able to respond quicker and in the right way to master a situation.

 

[lazywolfe]

Apr 23 2013

 

[Exorcet]

And when they put such options in the game, they should not advertise it as the real driving simulator.

Why? Such options do not lessen the realism at all.

 

[CJSpencer77]

Eitherway they should tone down the physics to a basic level completely or simulate everything properly. Something inbetween is not really great neither for the casual driver nore for the simulation-fanatic. And when they put such options in the game, they should not advertise it as the real driving simulator.

I know what you are saying but i feel to keep a good user base we will need those options. I, like you, want a full on Sim experience, i race on GT5 with no aids, abs 0 and low tyres to try to simulate a more authentic experience, but the bottom line is i did not start playing GT5 with no aids, abs 0 and comfort tyres.

Having the options to turn the "Sim aspects" off so new players can learn thier craft is what will keep the the more hard core user base alive, people are still filtering into ABS 0 even this far on in the games life, so i think the option to turn the realism down is what will keep the game alive by slowly introducing new people to the sim aspects.

 

[LVracerGT]

I've been saying this for years. Glad I'm not the only one.

 

[Wolfe]

I also want a good tyre model for GT6. If you know the models from Forza 4 or rFactor 2, it is a must. And it wont make the driving harder, it actually makes it easier, because you feel a better connection between the car and the track. It actually would'nt just make GT more realistic, but also more accessible, because there will be more and better feedback to the driver. It means, you will be able to respond quicker and in the right way to master a situation.

I agree completely. The scale of "unrealistic -> realistic" does not equate to "easy -> difficult". Having the most accurate tire model possible benefits everyone. After that, you can provide options to disable certain aspects, such as tire wear, while maintaining all other improvements.

 

[Tenacious D]

I, like you, want a full on Sim experience, i race on GT5 with no aids, abs 0 and low tyres to try to simulate a more authentic experience, but the bottom line is i did not start playing GT5 with no aids, abs 0 and comfort tyres.

I know this is slightly off topic, but a good thing to include in the discussion. I'm going to bring up the dreaded F-word.

Forza 4 is a good example of how to approach this... sort of. They heavily revamped the physics engine and tire model for F4, but in order to give the kids and newbies easy access to the game, they provided all sorts of assists to make racing easier. I think they went a little overboard with rewind and auto braking, and some of the assists feel a little weird, but it was their approach to this issue of being gamer friendly.

GT6 needs a range of assists like we have in GT5, because even as arcade as it can be, a surprising number of people still find it a challenge to hop in and race who are unfamiliar with more realistic racing games.

Anyhow, I'm hoping that GT6 pushes the physics simulation envelope to sim levels myself, and not just tire modeling. Bodyroll must return for cars with stock suspensions, and collisions could be more realistic. The dynamics of the cars in Forza 4 are amazing, and I want to see that in GT6. Draft modeling needs work, as the long draft channels in leading cars are still there. I'd like to see in simulation mode that if you mis-shift at high speeds, this causes you to lose traction as it does in real life. If it comes out for PS4, I'm hoping that rain and snow dynamics are well modeled, with puddling and evaporation rates recreated realistically. I say PS4 because I'm afraid that it would take a lot of work to balance the load on the Cell Engine from all the demands the game would make on it to be very realistic.

I'm very much looking forward to E3 and some tidbits on this stuff.

 

[rgkmaNando]

Would love to have the track get grippier and faster as it rubbers in. With tyres getting damage and flat spots. Also, be able to double or even triple stint the tyres when doing the Le-Mans 24hr. Just as in real world.

 

[dr_slump]

Would love to have the track get grippier and faster as it rubbers in. With tyres getting damage and flat spots. Also, be able to double or even triple stint the tyres when doing the Le-Mans 24hr. Just as in real world.

They could do this by using multiple tyre wear rates as in GT5's online mode.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Or better still, the people who don't want the realism, could stay away and play another game. I'm all for decreasing the user base if it means getting rid of people who shouldn't be theree in the first place. Just my opinion of course.

It's not about elitism. It's about making the game fun for the core audience of the specific title. There are a ton of arcade and semi-sim games out there. But actual sims are few and far in between. The way I see it is that if you have a bunch of people with different ideas on how to play something, it won't be fun for anyone. Where as if you have a group of people with the same desires, everyone will have fun.

Different games require different play styles. A Racing sim should be serious, and not have people ramming each other off the track. Just like a game like ARMA shouldn't have people playing it like it was Call of Duty. Such players would ruin the game.

Sorry but your answer is pretty much elitism. As much as I would also like it to also be true, reality is the game is only possible to begin with because of the millions of casual gamers that fork out the same dough as us for the game. They still need to be included in the picture.

Doesn't mean however there isn't an opportunity for something better for the hardcore players. Implementing player ranking systems, player skill evaluations, player safety ratings etc. and the ability to include them in open lobby setups really is the key to keeping things clean. Add in the ability of the host to have instant access to replays and most problems would be solved overnight.

 

[Jawehawk]

Sorry but your answer is pretty much elitism. As much as I would also like it to also be true, reality is the game is only possible to begin with because of the millions of casual gamers that fork out the same dough as us for the game. They still need to be included in the picture.

Doesn't mean however there isn't an opportunity for something better for the hardcore players. Implementing player ranking systems, player skill evaluations, player safety ratings etc. and the ability to include them in open lobby setups really is the key to keeping things clean. Add in the ability of the host to have instant access to replays and most problems would be solved overnight.

Well, It's unlikely that I'll convince you otherwise.

Personally, I don't see it as elitism. I see it as playing the game, the way it was meant to be played. GT5 appealed to a large audience. As long as GT6 is advitised as a harcore sim, then I see no problem in only catering to the harcore crowd. It just makes for a better experience, where as the current system means that hardcore players are better off only playing in organised races here on GTP. Again, there are a lot of racing games catering to the arcade crowd. Some of them even have semi-realistic physics.

So while the hardcore racers are left with no games that fully caters to them, the casual crowd are blessed with having to choose between any racing title.

With all that said. A proper ranking system, based on actual skill and whether you drive clean or not, could also work perfectly fine. But I imagine that to be rather hard to do.

 

[Scaff]

I also want a good tyre model for GT6. If you know the models from Forza 4 or rFactor 2, it is a must. And it wont make the driving harder, it actually makes it easier, because you feel a better connection between the car and the track. It actually would'nt just make GT more realistic, but also more accessible, because there will be more and better feedback to the driver. It means, you will be able to respond quicker and in the right way to master a situation.

This.

As far as assists go the current ones that exist in GT5 would do the job just fine with a better tyre model, no need to overly confuse matters with regard to having a load of options to turn on and off differing parts of the tyre model.

Personally, I don't see it as elitism. I see it as playing the game, the way it was meant to be played. GT5 appealed to a large audience. As long as GT6 is advitised as a harcore sim, then I see no problem in only catering to the harcore crowd. It just makes for a better experience, where as the current system means that hardcore players are better off only playing in organised races here on GTP. Again, there are a lot of racing games catering to the arcade crowd. Some of them even have semi-realistic physics.

So while the hardcore racers are left with no games that fully caters to them, the casual crowd are blessed with having to choose between any racing title.

With all that said. A proper ranking system, based on actual skill and whether you drive clean or not, could also work perfectly fine. But I imagine that to be rather hard to do.

And how large do you see the target audience for a hardcore only GT6 as being?

Right now that audience is almost certain to be a relatively small part of the total purchases of GT titles, remove them from the picture and you are unlikely to be left with enough people to actually make GT profitable in the long term.

 

[Jawehawk]

And how large do you see the target audience for a hardcore only GT6 as being?

Right now that audience is almost certain to be a relatively small part of the total purchases of GT titles, remove them from the picture and you are unlikely to be left with enough people to actually make GT profitable in the long term.

Aye. There's that too. Guess I got my perfect world mixed up with the real one .