Realistic Tyre Model - wear, temp, damage, conditions, pressure, etc

[jabofu]

In my eyes, really advanced physics are not the reason that the masses are avoiding simulations like iRacing, rFactor, GTR etc. If the graphics are not very good, many will turn away. Then there are mostly cars that are just for racing and sometimes street tyres are not simulated at all. Another reason is a small range of cars to choose from. A game that combined all the factors was Race On for the Xbox 360. For a sim-fan like me, it was fantastic, but they sold a very small amount of copies.

All GT titles had really high sales and they always adverted it as a very realistic and harcore experience. The people were'nt turned off, because there were always great graphics, a high possibility to find your own car in the game and you dont have to be a pro racer to enjoy some driving.

My question would be, why better simulation would be that bad for the GT-series, when we know that even causal gamers are not turned of by the advertised hardcore simulation in previous and current GT-games?

 

[lazywolfe]

All this stuff about "elitism" aside...

I hope they add this stuff, but having options to turn it off is fine. GT at its core is (hopefully not was) about realistic physics so they should always push toward that goal.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Aye. There's that too. Guess I got my perfect world mixed up with the real one .

I said the same thing...lol..

 

[Highlandor]

Right now that audience is almost certain to be a relatively small part of the total purchases of GT titles, remove them from the picture and you are unlikely to be left with enough people to actually make GT profitable in the long term.

So many die -hard GT fans have already walked away, this won't make too much difference.

Polyphony have already shot themselves in both feet, arms head and everywhere else too. The amount of guys who stuck with Prologue that only had minimal cars and tracks to race, was far greater than those sticking with the full GT5.


It should be fairly easy for PD to have beginner and pro options like in Prologue, and adapt what happens to the tyres accordingly.

We have options like TC, skid recovery etc etc that can be turned off and on, it can't be too hard for PD to adapt these driving aids and change them from being driving aids to a staggered tyre model whereby the more realistic you go for, the harder it is to drive i.e. more skill/practice is needed because PD have made the tyre/tyre life/affects more life like..

The affects spoken about in this thread already is going to make driving harder (just like turning off all drivings aids and going online pre 2:07 update before the mariokart physics came in), so it's the same philosphy but different execution.

You have settings which require better standard of driver/driving and this would be the better, more life like tyre model. Or you turn this off and play like people do now with driving aids on..

Most versions of GT have had some kind of driving aids. Instead of these, replace with a better tyre physics model using some of the tyre affects spoken about in this thread and have this as being optional, or staggered options. The higher you go, the more life like and harder it gets, subsequently, the more skill is needed.

So (using GT5 driving aids/options as example) lowest would be no tyre wear, difference in tyre heat etc - making it very easy (like with driving aids on, grippy tyres, grip reduction low and tyre wear off/normal) up to the best tyre model PD can make which would be like driving on lower grip (comfort) tyres, full tyre wear, grip reduction real and all aids off.

This would cater for both ends of the spectrum and all other in between.

 

[dr_slump]

Added "Correct Tyre Dimensions"

 

[Mulan]

Id like top speed for tyres, not all are done for 300+ km/h on stock cars and behave the same.
And not just physics...realistic cost for tyres would be nice too as a simulator.

 

[Imari]

Added "Correct Tyre Dimensions"

They very much need to model correct tyre dimensions. It messes up the handling of almost every mid/rear engined car in the game to a greater or lesser degree, and most of the high powered rear drive ones too. Anything with more than about 300 horses will have larger rear tyres, and that's a lot of cars.

It can be worked around with tuning and mismatching front/rear tyre compounds, but you really shouldn't have to "fix" such a fundamental characteristic of the cars to get them to drive right.

 

[Flamingwaffles]

A big, needed and easy to do change would be tire size, as mentioned. It is not hard to do, and will much more accurately dictate G-forces and grip.

GT5's tire system is extremely flawed, and not very "simulator" like, so I don't mind a lot of these ideas. That said, im not sure tire temperatures and flat spots are really needed to create an accurate model.

 

[Scaff]

A big, needed and easy to do change would be tire size, as mentioned. It is not hard to do, and will much more accurately dictate G-forces and grip.

GT5's tire system is extremely flawed, and not very "simulator" like, so I don't mind a lot of these ideas. That said, im not sure tire temperatures and flat spots are really needed to create an accurate model.

As both happen in real tyres to create an accurate model you would need them, it may be more of a question of does GT5 need them. Of the two tyre temperature is a must, it has a huge impact on the tyre and it behavour. Flat spots would be a nice to have, but lower down my personal list.

 

[LVracerGT]

As both happen in real tyres to create an accurate model you would need them, it may be more of a question of does GT5 need them. Of the two tyre temperature is a must, it has a huge impact on the tyre and it behavour. Flat spots would be a nice to have, but lower down my personal list.

Flat spots are a bit of a stretch, IMO. GT needs tire pressures first and foremost. It's a basic and BIG part of setups. Tire pressure changes can make a huge difference in performance and feel.

 

[maxpontiac]

Out of everything on this list, only tire pressure and change of tire dimensions are important to me.

With that said, I do believe that GT should have as many intricacies in the tire model, although I believe not many people will care about it.

 

[Tenacious D]

Considering GT games sell roughly 10 million copies or more - Prologue aside, there will definitely be a substantial portion who won't care how well the tires and suspension are modeled. They just want to tear around a track in a cool ride. But as a few others have said, taking the time to build a realistic racing experience should be a high priority for PD. Assists and/or difficulty levels can give the casual player the simcade racing experience they want.

 

[05XR8]

Yes, tire width and chassis track width. Example being the 240 ZG. THOSE SKINNY TYRES and the wheels so far inboard, not even RS tyres should aid in the stability through corners. I definitely want to pick the width of my tyres this go around.

 

[Imari]

Considering GT games sell roughly 10 million copies or more - Prologue aside, there will definitely be a substantial portion who won't care how well the tires and suspension are modeled. They just want to tear around a track in a cool ride. But as a few others have said, taking the time to build a realistic racing experience should be a high priority for PD. Assists and/or difficulty levels can give the casual player the simcade racing experience they want.

See, but I'm fairly sure a large proportion of the GT buying public couldn't tell you by feel what the differences are between NFS, GT and iRacing. And by this I'm almost by definition talking about the sort of people that would never hang out on GTPlanet.

They buy it because of it's reputation. They want to drive something that other people think is realistic. They wouldn't know it from a slap in the face with a wet fish, but they enjoy it because it's reputed to be a good simulator. And so when they do well they feel like Michael Schumacher/Lewis Hamilton/whoever.

And that reputation is generated by the hardcore who CAN tell whether the physics are decent or not.

You're right, there will be a substantial portion who don't directly care about the physics. But indirectly, a lot of GTs sales are based on this one thing: it being a reputedly decent simulator.

If that goes away it's basically NFS: Pro Street with 1000 cars.

 

[Tenacious D]

Considering that Gran Turismo has been improving with every game, I can't see it ever going anywhere. Polyphony is kind of like a family, and many of them have been there since the beginning. And since GT4, they've been nitpicked over every little detail. With a game as visually stunning as GT5 became, I can see why people would be looking for a similar level in physics.

The critics can be perplexing though, especially when they go into great detail about what's wrong with GT5's physics model, and then some of them laud a game like GT3 in which mid-engined cars such as the Lotus Esprit handled like front engined ones. Or the sound critics who keep saying that the cars in GT5 sound like vacuum cleaners. I suppose that describes my real life Supra...

The advances that have been made bode well for improvements to come, as I'm sure PD are tired of Gran Turismo being some critics perpetual whipping boy. I'm much more dubious over Project CARS and whatever Codies is up to.

 

[Crash]

Personally, I'm a fan of realism with the option of turning things off to cater to a large variety of interests.

With that said, there are a couple of things I would add to your list. I would add changes in tire behavior due to tire construction (radial, bias-ply, etc.), compound and tread pattern. All those will affect the deformation that the tire experiences with any given set of forces introduced. A realistic tire model should also take into account the varying sidewall stiffness between different tires.

To add to what Scaff said, may as well throw in changes in tire loading due to forces being exerted in the Z axis (technically an acceleration force, but I'm not sure if he included that as well).

 

[dr_slump]

Considering that Gran Turismo has been improving with every game, I can't see it ever going anywhere. Polyphony is kind of like a family, and many of them have been there since the beginning. And since GT4, they've been nitpicked over every little detail. With a game as visually stunning as GT5 became, I can see why people would be looking for a similar level in physics.

The critics can be perplexing though, especially when they go into great detail about what's wrong with GT5's physics model, and then some of them laud a game like GT3 in which mid-engined cars such as the Lotus Esprit handled like front engined ones. Or the sound critics who keep saying that the cars in GT5 sound like vacuum cleaners. I suppose that describes my real life Supra...

The advances that have been made bode well for improvements to come, as I'm sure PD are tired of Gran Turismo being some critics perpetual whipping boy. I'm much more dubious over Project CARS and whatever Codies is up to.

Nah, all cars irl sound like big v8's with open pipes, you didn't know?

I completely agree with you that GT5 has the best physics model of all GT titles. Who said GT3 had better physics?
What we want is further development of it. Not as much another evolution, more a revolution. Perhaps not for GT6, but at least for GT7 to a certain degree *wish*. We're trying to list how GT could improve further in a way we think is good.

 

[Imari]

The critics can be perplexing though, especially when they go into great detail about what's wrong with GT5's physics model, and then some of them laud a game like GT3 in which mid-engined cars such as the Lotus Esprit handled like front engined ones. Or the sound critics who keep saying that the cars in GT5 sound like vacuum cleaners. I suppose that describes my real life Supra...

GT3 was, for its time, unmatched on a console. In every respect. GT3 was a class leader.

GT5 is graphically superior, but is outdone in physics by a non-trivial number of games. GT5 is not a class leader in physics.

In absolute terms, yes, GT5 is an improvement on GT3. In relative terms, they're slipping compared to the competition. And when you're trying to sell a product, that means quite a lot.

 

[White & Nerdy]

I do think GT5 takes ambient temperatures into account at least to some degree. When running an Alaska course in course creator, the tire indicators tend to show up a darker blue than usual IIRC. Maybe not, maybe it's nothing, but interesting to note that they may already be thinking in this direction.

 

[dr_slump]

I do think GT5 takes ambient temperatures into account at least to some degree. When running an Alaska course in course creator, the tire indicators tend to show up a darker blue than usual IIRC. Maybe not, maybe it's nothing, but interesting to note that they may already be thinking in this direction.

It's about the same in rain conditions. Tyres never really heat up.

 

[Tenacious D]

What we want is further development of it. Not as much another evolution, more a revolution. Perhaps not for GT6, but at least for GT7 to a certain degree *wish*.

Hey, totally. I can't remember what I posted in this thread earlier, but half the time when someone posts that they want Gran Turismo to have impeccable simulation aspects, I have to chime in on that.

This is why I'm hoping that Kaz can pull an amazing feat and make GT6 for PS4, because the PS3 has just about been tapped of resources. The graphics eat up a lot of PS3's power, so something has to give to provide resource headroom for the physics engine. The same thing for bot A.I., and the sound guys want the engine sounds improved, that's a little more processing and ram to boot.

PS4 has horsepower to burn, but PS3 will have to be carved up differently in order for everything to be better, and certain things just won't be possible, like proper lighting at night. In GT5, only four cars at most cast headlight beams, and this isn't going to be much different if GT6 is on PS3.

Anyhow, gotta get a nap in so I can play with my leaf blowers after brunch.

 

[HKS racer]

GT6 on PS3 should add flag rules and realistic damages. The player and AI should retire from the race if they crash. All the stuff you mentioned here takes lots of CPU. Something can be improved but I guess tyre deformation is out of question on PS3.

If you can't wait for all that stuff you better give rFactor 2 a go. Seriously. You can still be a PD fan and play some other racing games/sims in your gaming/sim racing career.

 

[Tenacious D]

I can wait.

I completely forgot about rFactor 2. This is how much I care about other racing games. But looking the site over, it seems that rF2 is a work in progress like Live For Speed, and I'm just not in the mood for another paid "demo" with a handful of cars and tracks, and one-make races. I already have some awesome PC sims, and I gave them a try a couple of weekends ago, Forza 4 too. And I came running back to GT5 with all its flaws. I'm addicted to all those cars and tracks, and Course Maker too. I made a long twisty road course and it's now my favorite track in the game.

I don't know what's possible on PS3. For all its weirdness, Forza 4 is an amazing game on the 360, and the PS3 has more computing power thanks to the five or six available SPUs. Of course Turn 10 hired a Hollywood graphics studio to rebuild the graphics engine, but still, they managed to cram a lot into that game. Polyphony put so much emphasis on their graphics engine that it evidently consumes a good chunk of PS3 resources, so when 3D was wedgied in, it seemed to cause problems. At least that's my deduction on the graphic flaws PD haven't fixed.

A number of us have concluded that PD needs to open up everything they built in the GT5 engine and rewrite a lot of it in order to reorganize and re-prioritize Cell/RSX resources. If they do this, they can accomplish a lot without hurting those world class graphics. We could get tire deformation, a good damage model and those racing marshalls, and the sound guys will want to be happy too, but it depends on what Kaz has determined to focus on, and which system GT6 is being built for. If it's PS3, he may save all the amazing goodies for the PS4 game with all the godly power that system has, and give us what GT5 could have been.

 

[research]

quoted from Synwraith who was able to experience the demo at Silverstone:

"I found the racing hard tyres a bit more challenging than before, and the lower grip comforts and sports I really enjoyed."

^This is something very interesting to me. Now it's obvious that the old 'grip multiplier' is out, replaced by a totally new tire model. This is a great thing. But one question I have, after much study of the motorsports world, is about the difference between Racing Slicks and Sports tires. They say that Racing tires have a high amount of grip (obviously), but when you go beyond that threshold they tend to break contact very quickly, making it very difficult to go over the edge and bring it back. Sports and high-performance Street tires on the other hand can offer decent grip, but have a much larger threshold between grip/no grip- allowing you to "play" on the edge much easier.

Does anyone else hear things to this affect? Any pro race-drivers or guys with experience lurking in here that would like to comment on that? It almost sounds like Synwraith has described this phenomenon being in the GT6 demo...

.

 

[dr_slump]

quoted from Synwraith who was able to experience the demo at Silverstone:

"I found the racing hard tyres a bit more challenging than before, and the lower grip comforts and sports I really enjoyed."

^This is something very interesting to me. Now it's obvious that the old 'grip multiplier' is out, replaced by a totally new tire model. This is a great thing. But one question I have, after much study of the motorsports world, is about the difference between Racing Slicks and Sports tires. They say that Racing tires have a high amount of grip (obviously), but when you go beyond that threshold they tend to break contact very quickly, making it very difficult to go over the edge and bring it back. Sports and high-performance Street tires on the other hand can offer decent grip, but have a much larger threshold between grip/no grip- allowing you to "play" on the edge much easier.

Does anyone else hear things to this affect? Any pro race-drivers or guys with experience lurking in here that would like to comment on that? It almost sounds like Synwraith has described this phenomenon being in the GT6 demo...

.

It's not because the slicks would've less grip in that situation. They do always provide more grip than sports tyres.

The main problem is the following:

• You drive at much higher speeds and following the forces are immensely higher.
• The grippier a tyre, the bigger are the differences of grip in the respective conditions, although still higher than with lower grip tyres.

These two factors together form the behaviour under grip-skid-grip situations.

 

[Imari]

Now it's obvious that the old 'grip multiplier' is out, replaced by a totally new tire model.
.

I don't think that's obvious at all. It took some time for people to discover and test in a way that made the grip multiplier undeniable.

What we know is that they've worked on the tyre model. In some way. We don't know what they've done. We don't know whether it's an evolution of the old tyre model or something completely new. We don't know whether it's a simple Pacekja type system like PC sims have been using for the last forever, or something new and unique like is coming to PC sims now.

We know nothing, other than they told us they changed it.

Given the low quality of the GT5 tyre simulation, I think it would be wise not to expect too much.