Rebound Settings Revisited
- Thread starter munkeeeee
- 26 comments
- 8,054 views
- 2,063
Hi Munkee
The answer you're after here is actually stiffer Front Bound and Rebound than Rear Bound and Rebound to promote Oversteer on corner exit.
Bear in mind that Damper tuning is an excercise in compromise tho' and such a setup will more than likely give a degree of Understeer on corner entry.
For a good discourse on real life damper tuning have a look at this article:
http://www.smithees-racetech.com.au/theory/shocktune1.html
The answer you're after here is actually stiffer Front Bound and Rebound than Rear Bound and Rebound to promote Oversteer on corner exit.
Bear in mind that Damper tuning is an excercise in compromise tho' and such a setup will more than likely give a degree of Understeer on corner entry.
For a good discourse on real life damper tuning have a look at this article:
http://www.smithees-racetech.com.au/theory/shocktune1.html
sukerkin,
Very interesting link you posted, however, I'm still confused. If you are applying power right after the apex and NOT before, how does your front bound and rear rebound come into play at all during the specified action of transfering weight to the rear? In my mind, I see the stiff rear bound as needed to slow down the rate of weight transfer to the rear. Less weight transfer to the rear equals reduced traction. This in naturally equals increased power oversteer.
The soft front rebound (faster response) keeps the front wheels of the car in touch with the road better than a stiff front rebound (slower response) would while this weight transfer is occuring. I' luv to hear Neon's and your input on this. Thanks.
Very interesting link you posted, however, I'm still confused. If you are applying power right after the apex and NOT before, how does your front bound and rear rebound come into play at all during the specified action of transfering weight to the rear? In my mind, I see the stiff rear bound as needed to slow down the rate of weight transfer to the rear. Less weight transfer to the rear equals reduced traction. This in naturally equals increased power oversteer.
The soft front rebound (faster response) keeps the front wheels of the car in touch with the road better than a stiff front rebound (slower response) would while this weight transfer is occuring. I' luv to hear Neon's and your input on this. Thanks.
- 2,063
Nice to see that you're thinking about this Mr. M.
Your logic is good apart from one point; this is that you need a slow responding Front Rebound to make the Front end of the car rise more slowly.
This is down to the basic fact that Bound values affect how the wheels move (as influenced by the contours of the track) and the Rebound values affect how the body of the car moves (in response to inputs from the springs).
In most driving simulatons (and GT3 is no exception) the Rebound value is the dominant one i.e. it's the one with which you will see the most impact on the car's handling because it's the one that influences weight transfer. Both values have a part to play however. If you don't get the Bound set right to smooth out the spring movements then the Rebound can be very difficult to set because it's 'inputs' become erratic.
The stiffer Front Bound I mentioned above works (in combination with Soft Rear Rebound) to make the car "oversteery" on corner entry whilst the stiff Front Rebound combined with the soft Rear Bound works the same on exit. So an overall stiffer front end gives you oversteer all the way through a corner. The reason why I suggested this set-up is that with controlled oversteer into a corner ('drift' in the classic sense) you have half the battle won for a power-on-all-the-way exit from the corner (with the oversteer in that aspect helping you stay on the track).
I hope that comes across clearly. If not, please feel free to ask for greater detail.
Your logic is good apart from one point; this is that you need a slow responding Front Rebound to make the Front end of the car rise more slowly.
This is down to the basic fact that Bound values affect how the wheels move (as influenced by the contours of the track) and the Rebound values affect how the body of the car moves (in response to inputs from the springs).
In most driving simulatons (and GT3 is no exception) the Rebound value is the dominant one i.e. it's the one with which you will see the most impact on the car's handling because it's the one that influences weight transfer. Both values have a part to play however. If you don't get the Bound set right to smooth out the spring movements then the Rebound can be very difficult to set because it's 'inputs' become erratic.
The stiffer Front Bound I mentioned above works (in combination with Soft Rear Rebound) to make the car "oversteery" on corner entry whilst the stiff Front Rebound combined with the soft Rear Bound works the same on exit. So an overall stiffer front end gives you oversteer all the way through a corner. The reason why I suggested this set-up is that with controlled oversteer into a corner ('drift' in the classic sense) you have half the battle won for a power-on-all-the-way exit from the corner (with the oversteer in that aspect helping you stay on the track).
I hope that comes across clearly. If not, please feel free to ask for greater detail.
- 2,063
Hi Iceman
I would guess from what you posted there that we could be running into one of two things here:
1) We have different driving styles - do you brake whilst turning by any chance?
2) A case of what I call 'Dark Side' tuning. By this I mean that Damper and Stabaliser settings (and maybe others to) are turned to their maximum (or very nearly).
Now, technically, within the game, there is nothing 'wrong' per se with 'Dark Side Tuning' and a lot of the fastest people on the planet use it. There is no denying that it works ... but, to misquote Yoda, it is the quick,easy, path .
However, I like to think of GT3 as the closest thing we've got to a sports car simulator and I like to tune accordingly. It can take a lot more work but, usually (fingers crossed
) it is possible to achieve good results with 'real world' set-ups. That underpinning approach is behind a great deal of what I post on tuning.
(Re-reading the above, it is possible to interpret it as a negative retort to your post Iceman - it's not meant that way so please don't take offense).
I would guess from what you posted there that we could be running into one of two things here:
1) We have different driving styles - do you brake whilst turning by any chance?
2) A case of what I call 'Dark Side' tuning. By this I mean that Damper and Stabaliser settings (and maybe others to) are turned to their maximum (or very nearly).
Now, technically, within the game, there is nothing 'wrong' per se with 'Dark Side Tuning' and a lot of the fastest people on the planet use it. There is no denying that it works ... but, to misquote Yoda, it is the quick,easy, path .
However, I like to think of GT3 as the closest thing we've got to a sports car simulator and I like to tune accordingly. It can take a lot more work but, usually (fingers crossed
) it is possible to achieve good results with 'real world' set-ups. That underpinning approach is behind a great deal of what I post on tuning.(Re-reading the above, it is possible to interpret it as a negative retort to your post Iceman - it's not meant that way so please don't take offense).
hmm correct me wrong but I was always thought that front bound should be stiffer and rear rebound should be stiffer to promote oversteer.
The idea is that when u break into a corner, you want to promote more traction to the front wheel and therefore u want to reduce diving in the front suspension. Stiff front bound will make sthe front springs compress less allowing less "dive" and therefore less weight transfer to the front two tires allowing you to use the rear tires more. The stiffer rear rebound is the same idea, not allowing the rear spring to stretch.
The idea is that when u break into a corner, you want to promote more traction to the front wheel and therefore u want to reduce diving in the front suspension. Stiff front bound will make sthe front springs compress less allowing less "dive" and therefore less weight transfer to the front two tires allowing you to use the rear tires more. The stiffer rear rebound is the same idea, not allowing the rear spring to stretch.
- 2,063
Hi Jrunken and welcome to the discourse.
It's worth bearing in mind a fairly vital fact about suspension tuning ... there is no, single, right answer. In other words it's always a compromise. To get a certain behaviour that you want in one part of a corner you usually have to accept a worsening in handling at another.
However, there are a few 'rules' that hold true:
1) As mentioned above, Bound affects how the wheels react to the road and Rebound affects how the sprung mass (i.e. most of the car) responds to the inputs into the springs.
2) The springs control the magnitude of effects whilst the dampers control the rate at which things happen.
Oops ... got to go .. am at work now and boss's are looming. I'll expand on this later ...
{Some hours later ...}
Okay, where was I? Oh yes.
3) When dealing with how dampers affect cornering then, in general, the Front Bound and Rear rebound affect corner entry and the Rear Bound and Front Rebound affect corner exit.
There are basically four 'modes' in cornering i.e. Entry, Exit, Understeer and Oversteer. This gives you effectively four different relative ways in total to set a car up - two for corner entry and two for corner exit. Remember note 2) from above when reading the following.
First, Corner Entry.
If the car Oversteers too much when entering a corner then the requisite action is to either soften the Rear Rebound (letting the back end come up at a faster rate) and/or stiffen the Front Bound (slowing the rate at which the front end dips).
If the car Understeers too much when going in to a corner (i.e. during deceleration it is reluctant to turn in) then stiffen the Rear Rebound, which will slow the rate at which the back end comes up and/or soften the Front Bound (allowing the springs to compress more quickly and thus moving the point of balance and weight forward allowing sharper rotation)
Second, Corner Exit.
If a car Oversteers unacceptably on corner exit, then soften the Front Rebound (to get the front end up quicker and so tranfer weight rearwards) and/or stiffen the Rear Bound (which in this case makes the springs resist compression and so allows the energy of acceleration to create pressure on the road surface through the back wheels).
If a car will insist on following its nose off the racing line (i.e. Understeering out of a corner) then stiffening the Front Rebound will slow the rise of the front end. This can be augmented by softening the Rear Bound which allows the springs to absorb the weight transfer more quickly (which means less rear end grip in this instance).
That turned out a lot more 'wordy' than I'd planned on - I hope it wasn't too unclear?
To paraphrase ...
Corner Entry Oversteer Reduction: -Rear Rebound, +Front Bound
Corner Entry Understeer Reduction: +Rear Rebound, -Front Bound
Corner Exit Oversteer Reduction: -Front rebound, +Rear Bound
Corner Exit Understeer Reduction: +Front Rebound, -Rear Bound
Better? Or worse
?
The thing that really clouds the issue is which way the values in the game are configured i.e. is higher stiffer(slower) or is it softer(quicker)? For myself, I've never gone wrong by working on the 'Higher is Stiffer' theorum for both Bound and Rebound. There is, however, a hefty body of people who think otherwise ...
It's worth bearing in mind a fairly vital fact about suspension tuning ... there is no, single, right answer. In other words it's always a compromise. To get a certain behaviour that you want in one part of a corner you usually have to accept a worsening in handling at another.
However, there are a few 'rules' that hold true:
1) As mentioned above, Bound affects how the wheels react to the road and Rebound affects how the sprung mass (i.e. most of the car) responds to the inputs into the springs.
2) The springs control the magnitude of effects whilst the dampers control the rate at which things happen.
Oops ... got to go .. am at work now and boss's are looming. I'll expand on this later ...
{Some hours later ...}
Okay, where was I? Oh yes.
3) When dealing with how dampers affect cornering then, in general, the Front Bound and Rear rebound affect corner entry and the Rear Bound and Front Rebound affect corner exit.
There are basically four 'modes' in cornering i.e. Entry, Exit, Understeer and Oversteer. This gives you effectively four different relative ways in total to set a car up - two for corner entry and two for corner exit. Remember note 2) from above when reading the following.
First, Corner Entry.
If the car Oversteers too much when entering a corner then the requisite action is to either soften the Rear Rebound (letting the back end come up at a faster rate) and/or stiffen the Front Bound (slowing the rate at which the front end dips).
If the car Understeers too much when going in to a corner (i.e. during deceleration it is reluctant to turn in) then stiffen the Rear Rebound, which will slow the rate at which the back end comes up and/or soften the Front Bound (allowing the springs to compress more quickly and thus moving the point of balance and weight forward allowing sharper rotation)
Second, Corner Exit.
If a car Oversteers unacceptably on corner exit, then soften the Front Rebound (to get the front end up quicker and so tranfer weight rearwards) and/or stiffen the Rear Bound (which in this case makes the springs resist compression and so allows the energy of acceleration to create pressure on the road surface through the back wheels).
If a car will insist on following its nose off the racing line (i.e. Understeering out of a corner) then stiffening the Front Rebound will slow the rise of the front end. This can be augmented by softening the Rear Bound which allows the springs to absorb the weight transfer more quickly (which means less rear end grip in this instance).
That turned out a lot more 'wordy' than I'd planned on - I hope it wasn't too unclear?
To paraphrase ...
Corner Entry Oversteer Reduction: -Rear Rebound, +Front Bound
Corner Entry Understeer Reduction: +Rear Rebound, -Front Bound
Corner Exit Oversteer Reduction: -Front rebound, +Rear Bound
Corner Exit Understeer Reduction: +Front Rebound, -Rear Bound
Better? Or worse
?The thing that really clouds the issue is which way the values in the game are configured i.e. is higher stiffer(slower) or is it softer(quicker)? For myself, I've never gone wrong by working on the 'Higher is Stiffer' theorum for both Bound and Rebound. There is, however, a hefty body of people who think otherwise ...
very nice. Thank you sukerkin. I think I understand it better. Forget what I said before. Will read up more on suspension stuff.
BTW, if you wanted a FWD to be able exhibit oversteer when braking hard into a corner but neutral when coming out what kind of setting would u recommend?
BTW, if you wanted a FWD to be able exhibit oversteer when braking hard into a corner but neutral when coming out what kind of setting would u recommend?
- 2,063
FF! Cough ... splutter ... spit ... LOL {bet you can't guess I don't like FWD's can you 
}.
As to your question, that's actually quite tough to achieve as the FF's in GT3 understeer on a galactic scale.
To get oversteer going into a corner whilst braking is a tall order as you have to try and overcome the inbuilt understeer bias of the games coding as well as deal with the 'normal' inherent problems of an FF drivetrain (which is that you have the front wheels attempting to do the steering and power transfer/braking at the same time).
I would try setting the Front Bound very soft (about 3 or 4) and the Rear Rebound very high. If you have an LSD then I would actually recommend removing it in this case. If you have a Brake Balance Controller then set it up for a Rear bias. Equalise the Spring Rates Front and Rear (or set the Rear a couple of kg's higher). Set the Stabalisers to something like 3/5 (note that Stabalisers effects are contingent upon everything else in the suspension so you may well find that a setting of 4/3 actually produces better lap times because of greater front end grip and responsiveness).
To get a neutral exit then you'll first have to find out by test driving how she's reacting with the a nominal current set-up (e.g. Rear Bound 4, Front Rebound 8). Run a few laps like that and see if you're getting Oversteer (unlikely) or Understeer on exit. Then tune the Dampers as noted above.
}.As to your question, that's actually quite tough to achieve as the FF's in GT3 understeer on a galactic scale.
To get oversteer going into a corner whilst braking is a tall order as you have to try and overcome the inbuilt understeer bias of the games coding as well as deal with the 'normal' inherent problems of an FF drivetrain (which is that you have the front wheels attempting to do the steering and power transfer/braking at the same time).
I would try setting the Front Bound very soft (about 3 or 4) and the Rear Rebound very high. If you have an LSD then I would actually recommend removing it in this case. If you have a Brake Balance Controller then set it up for a Rear bias. Equalise the Spring Rates Front and Rear (or set the Rear a couple of kg's higher). Set the Stabalisers to something like 3/5 (note that Stabalisers effects are contingent upon everything else in the suspension so you may well find that a setting of 4/3 actually produces better lap times because of greater front end grip and responsiveness).
To get a neutral exit then you'll first have to find out by test driving how she's reacting with the a nominal current set-up (e.g. Rear Bound 4, Front Rebound 8). Run a few laps like that and see if you're getting Oversteer (unlikely
) or Understeer on exit. Then tune the Dampers as noted above.
- 24,344
- Midlantic Area
- GTP_Duke
Actually, I know it's not a damper setting, but dialling in a healthy dose of toe OUT (negative numbers, like -1.5 to -2.0) in the rear coupled with mild toe IN at the front (+0.5 or so) will help the FWD cars rotate under trail braking. Then, once committed to the turn, throttle steer to let the front end go wide as required.
- 2,063
Hi 'Duke
Nice to see that all that subliminal propoganda I proselytised about the usefulness of Toe Settings finally overcame your virtuous denial of its efficacy
.
In other words, yes, I forgot to mention that - very good point.
EDIT: Temporarily forgot how to spell 'subliminal' :blush:
Nice to see that all that subliminal propoganda I proselytised about the usefulness of Toe Settings finally overcame your virtuous denial of its efficacy
.In other words, yes, I forgot to mention that - very good point
.EDIT: Temporarily forgot how to spell 'subliminal' :blush:
Completely and utterly confused... 
I doubt I even have the correct understanding of how exactly the dampers move when they work and how the settings change their behavior. "Bound" is the amount of force it takes to make them compress, and raising the bound setting makes them more difficult to compress, right? Then theres rebound. Does increasing the rebound increase the speed at which they "un-compress" back to their normal length? I also have no idea how the dampers work with the springs/body of the car. What are they attached to exactly? I've been reading these articles and links about dampers for a long time and am as confused as ever. 
I doubt I even have the correct understanding of how exactly the dampers move when they work and how the settings change their behavior. "Bound" is the amount of force it takes to make them compress, and raising the bound setting makes them more difficult to compress, right? Then theres rebound. Does increasing the rebound increase the speed at which they "un-compress" back to their normal length? I also have no idea how the dampers work with the springs/body of the car. What are they attached to exactly? I've been reading these articles and links about dampers for a long time and am as confused as ever. - 11
In my mind, stiffening the bound makes it tougher to compress the shock, thus slows down weight transfer to those wheels. I think that softening the re-bound means the shock is pushing back with LESS force after compression, thereby slowing down weight transfer from those wheels.
For example, to promote oversteer accelerating out of a corner, i would soften the front re-bound and increase rear bound. I think this slows down weight transfer to the back, as the car accelerates. The longer you can keep weight over the front (turning) wheels, the more over steer the car will exhibit.
I don't think you can tune a car for max acceleration out of a turn, without knowing if the car is a FWD or RWD. I think you would want the weight over the drive wheels. This may or may not also promote oversteer. In my example, a FWD car would also get better acceleration out of the corner, but a RWD car wouldn't. Again, that compromise thing.
I read alot about this too. I understand your frustration!
For example, to promote oversteer accelerating out of a corner, i would soften the front re-bound and increase rear bound. I think this slows down weight transfer to the back, as the car accelerates. The longer you can keep weight over the front (turning) wheels, the more over steer the car will exhibit.
I don't think you can tune a car for max acceleration out of a turn, without knowing if the car is a FWD or RWD. I think you would want the weight over the drive wheels. This may or may not also promote oversteer. In my example, a FWD car would also get better acceleration out of the corner, but a RWD car wouldn't. Again, that compromise thing.
I read alot about this too. I understand your frustration!
If what your saying about how the dampers affect the oversteering/ understeering/ max acceleration behavior of the car is true than that definetly seems logical to me. Thanks egg. 👍
Everyone just seems to have different definitions of the terms used to describe what the bound and rebound settings do. That along with plenty more issues im not clear on make this stuff confusing to me.
Could someone try to explain or give me a link with a diagram or something that shows just where the dampers and springs are connected and exactly how their construction is able to change the behavior of the car (along with their relation to the actual body of the car)? The guys above talked about the dampers controlling the rate at which things happen and springs: the magnitude of the effects but this makes no sense to me as I dont even understand exactly how they interact with each other and the body of the car. THANKS! 👍
Everyone just seems to have different definitions of the terms used to describe what the bound and rebound settings do. That along with plenty more issues im not clear on make this stuff confusing to me.
Could someone try to explain or give me a link with a diagram or something that shows just where the dampers and springs are connected and exactly how their construction is able to change the behavior of the car (along with their relation to the actual body of the car)? The guys above talked about the dampers controlling the rate at which things happen and springs: the magnitude of the effects but this makes no sense to me as I dont even understand exactly how they interact with each other and the body of the car. THANKS! 👍
- 6,977
- old-guy64
To bring this to the "sixth grade" level
, I have recently started using max bound/rebound in front and 7/7 or 8/8 in the rear. (In RWD cars)
My reasoning is that lighter "bounciness" on the end of the car with the least weight will help to plant the rear end, and make for more slide free turning. I have also started using lighter spring settings to help accomplish the same thing.
I usually only play with toe settings on FWD cars. Yes, it's to get the rear to actually follow the front around turns.
I am also playing more with the ride height to keep cars like the C-5 Vette racer from throwing sparks all the time. I am also trying to get it to go a bit easier on front tires.
On my current reset my two best handling cars, using the above kinds of settings, are the FTO LM and the Vertigo.
I came upon the idea of max/near max damping, and lighter springing when UB57 ran his last comps. Changing to his settings dropped my times by 2-3 seconds a lap, and made me almost competitive.
, I have recently started using max bound/rebound in front and 7/7 or 8/8 in the rear. (In RWD cars)My reasoning is that lighter "bounciness" on the end of the car with the least weight will help to plant the rear end, and make for more slide free turning. I have also started using lighter spring settings to help accomplish the same thing.
I usually only play with toe settings on FWD cars. Yes, it's to get the rear to actually follow the front around turns.
I am also playing more with the ride height to keep cars like the C-5 Vette racer from throwing sparks all the time. I am also trying to get it to go a bit easier on front tires.
On my current reset my two best handling cars, using the above kinds of settings, are the FTO LM and the Vertigo.
I came upon the idea of max/near max damping, and lighter springing when UB57 ran his last comps. Changing to his settings dropped my times by 2-3 seconds a lap, and made me almost competitive.
- 2,063
Hi kurtg_85
It's heartening that quite a few people have put posts here that show that they're thinking seriously about how suspensions actually work and how that relates to GT3.
There are two main schools of thought within the gaming community on how the Damper settings work. One says that higher ratings are stiffer for Bound and Rebound and so slow the rate of weight transfer (i.e. 'Real World Physics'), the other says that in the case of Rebound a high rating means less resistance and so quicker response from the spring (implying that the programmers made a mistake in the code (or at least decided not to make the Dampers work like real ones)).
I belong to the first school and I would guess that EOE belongs to the second, given the example he sites above.
There is no conclusive proof as driving style affects a lot within the game and as drivers find what works for them they naturally fall into one camp or the other. That's the point really - what works for a given driver is fine (even 'Dark Side' tuning Gil (shame on you) ).
I'll have a scout about and try and dig up some links on the actual geometry and physics of suspensions for you so you can have a better feel for what happens on a real car (which, as noted, may not be the same as a GT3 car).
It's heartening that quite a few people have put posts here that show that they're thinking seriously about how suspensions actually work and how that relates to GT3.
There are two main schools of thought within the gaming community on how the Damper settings work. One says that higher ratings are stiffer for Bound and Rebound and so slow the rate of weight transfer (i.e. 'Real World Physics'), the other says that in the case of Rebound a high rating means less resistance and so quicker response from the spring (implying that the programmers made a mistake in the code (or at least decided not to make the Dampers work like real ones)).
I belong to the first school and I would guess that EOE belongs to the second, given the example he sites above.
There is no conclusive proof as driving style affects a lot within the game and as drivers find what works for them they naturally fall into one camp or the other. That's the point really - what works for a given driver is fine (even 'Dark Side' tuning Gil (shame on you
) ).I'll have a scout about and try and dig up some links on the actual geometry and physics of suspensions for you so you can have a better feel for what happens on a real car (which, as noted, may not be the same as a GT3 car).
- 2,063
Okay; here are some links to various tuning/automotive engineering sites. I've had some of these links for a while so I don't know if any of them are dead. It should be possible to refind the info tho' as sites usually resurrect under another guise.
www.me.udel.edu/meeg467/Vehicles
http://hometown.aol.com/EURORALLY/Suspension1.htm
http://thundervalleyracing.com
NB: They seem to have removed the technical articles from this site - a shame as they were a quite good basic grounding in tuning concepts.
http://catalog.com/susq/other/stuning.htm
www.ground-control.com
www.uts.com/products/cartech3.htm
www.engin.brown.edu/courses/en4/notes/Dampedvibes/Dampedvibes.html
http://www.e30m3performance.com/tech_articles/susp-tech/index.htm
http://forums.12hundred.com
www.miata.net/sport/Physics/phor.pdf
Also, web searches on the following will yield results:
Jacob Eelkema
Journal of Sound and Vibration +Suspension +system +road
California 95616 +suspension +deflection
Scott Gruenberg +Damping
Aleksander Hac +Suspension
eme823pr.pdf
Michael William Sayers
http://www.se-r.net/car_info/suspension_tuning.html
http://www.houseofthud.com/differentials.htm
http://www.bgsoflex.com/auto.html
www.me.udel.edu/meeg467/Vehicles
http://hometown.aol.com/EURORALLY/Suspension1.htm
http://thundervalleyracing.com
NB: They seem to have removed the technical articles from this site - a shame as they were a quite good basic grounding in tuning concepts.
http://catalog.com/susq/other/stuning.htm
www.ground-control.com
www.uts.com/products/cartech3.htm
www.engin.brown.edu/courses/en4/notes/Dampedvibes/Dampedvibes.html
http://www.e30m3performance.com/tech_articles/susp-tech/index.htm
http://forums.12hundred.com
www.miata.net/sport/Physics/phor.pdf
Also, web searches on the following will yield results:
Jacob Eelkema
Journal of Sound and Vibration +Suspension +system +road
California 95616 +suspension +deflection
Scott Gruenberg +Damping
Aleksander Hac +Suspension
eme823pr.pdf
Michael William Sayers
http://www.se-r.net/car_info/suspension_tuning.html
http://www.houseofthud.com/differentials.htm
http://www.bgsoflex.com/auto.html
- 6,977
- old-guy64
Why is my method of tuning "dark side"? I have just found that for my driving style, my latest method of tuning seems to work for me.
I have basically "dialed-out" the handling characteristics that I don't like.
I have just taken some of the tuning tips from the fastest people I know (that share their tunings). I then mixed their styles into one that works for me.
I will still admit to being about the slowest "fast guy" in the community.
If you check my placement in some of the comps, you will note that I still have a great deal of work to do. In regards to tuning, and my driving "skill".
I have basically "dialed-out" the handling characteristics that I don't like.
I have just taken some of the tuning tips from the fastest people I know (that share their tunings). I then mixed their styles into one that works for me.
I will still admit to being about the slowest "fast guy" in the community.
If you check my placement in some of the comps, you will note that I still have a great deal of work to do. In regards to tuning, and my driving "skill".
err.. hey sukerkin... just checking to make sure... stiffer shocks mean faster weight transfer right? because there is less time for the shock to compress and since the same about of weight is always transferred, it transfers faster. I would actually be interested in a real-time chat w/you about racing physics and things, i have a lot of theories that i'm not too sure about, or are contested... and typing takes too long, but anyways... anything that decreased the rate of suspension travel will transfer weight faster... *note* even m-spec's guide says so =P
one quick note about you're suggestion. You said to cure corner entry oversteer, you want softer rear rebound and stiffer front bound. Wouldn't that just counteract each other? the rear can only rise if the front bound setting allows for that rate of compression. Unless you mean it raises the entire ride height of the car.
In addition, to reduce corner entry oversteer, i have several contradicting ideas about the rear rebound setting you proposed
1) softening rear rebound slows the rate at which weight transfers forward because it takes longer for the rear to rise, and the amount of weight transfered is the same, so consequently, the rear tires retain grip and voila, no oversteer.
2) or... stiffening rear rebound doesn't let the rear rise as quickly so weight transfer is slowed again.. and same thing. In this case, a softer setting would mean quick download onto the front tires, promoting grip, and reducing rear grip... the exact opposite of curing oversteer. OR... ARE you thinking of overloading the front tires to reduce the oversteer?
ok... any response appreciated. thanks guys
ChiShi
one quick note about you're suggestion. You said to cure corner entry oversteer, you want softer rear rebound and stiffer front bound. Wouldn't that just counteract each other? the rear can only rise if the front bound setting allows for that rate of compression. Unless you mean it raises the entire ride height of the car.
In addition, to reduce corner entry oversteer, i have several contradicting ideas about the rear rebound setting you proposed
1) softening rear rebound slows the rate at which weight transfers forward because it takes longer for the rear to rise, and the amount of weight transfered is the same, so consequently, the rear tires retain grip and voila, no oversteer.
2) or... stiffening rear rebound doesn't let the rear rise as quickly so weight transfer is slowed again.. and same thing. In this case, a softer setting would mean quick download onto the front tires, promoting grip, and reducing rear grip... the exact opposite of curing oversteer. OR... ARE you thinking of overloading the front tires to reduce the oversteer?
ok... any response appreciated. thanks guys
ChiShi
- 2,063
Hi Gil - didn't mean to ruffle your feathers my friend. Simply joshing about my long held opinion on running things at maximum stiffness (ooh er missus LOL) being the "quick, easy path" as Yoda would say.
Hi Chishifu - this is a fascinating subject isn't it? That's why I spent the better part of two years teaching myself how to 'tune' suspensions ... all that just for a game ... I doubt my sanity sometimes
! One thing to remember (and I put this in my posts periodically) is that, when it comes to GT3 and how it handles the tuning parameters, a lot of the time what is voiced are opinions and observations rather than hard facts.
This doesn't mean that they are wrong or invalid tho' and driving style can tip an observation on it's head. Thus, you can get the situation when two posters, who seem to know what they're talking about, can say conflicting things about the same tuning element. What a player needs to do is try both ways and see what works for them.
I've always worked from the assumption that a stiffer damper means that it resists the movement of the spring more strongly (venting energy as heat) and so slows the rate of expansion or compression of the spring.
When I talked off correcting corner entry oversteer I suggested stiffening the front damper Bound (which prevents the nose of the car diving quickly and unloading the rear) or softening the rear rebound (which lets the back end springs to expand more quickly). As you spotted, these can be seen as contradictory actions and, at a simple level they are.
Like you said in your above post, I too used to think that the soft rear rebound was to allow the weight to go forward too fast and so overload the front tyres, using understeer to combat oversteer. That may still be the case in some circumstances. However, as I interpret it, the stiff front bound works under braking by slowing the dive of the nose and this means that the soft rear rebound's normal effect is ameliorated and the effect is to allow the rear wheels to remain in contact with the road better, et voila, less oversteer. This could be absolute drivel of course - all I can say is it works for me ... mostly
.All anyone can say with certainty is that, in GT3 (and to some extent out on the real world track) suspension tuning is a 'black art' that engineers can aim mathematics at until the cows come home but essentially comes down to what a driver feels through the seat
.Ahh.. i see your reasoning man... but lolz, 1 last contest to your ideas... in the case you described above, using front bound to counteract rear rebound, why not just leave rear rebound as it is or perhaps even stiffer to reduce the rise of the rear?
or does it not work like that and the softer setting lets the chassis rise but keep the tires in contact w/the ground? in this case... seems like you would have to experiment for ages b4 you found complementary bound/rebound settings..
anyways, you're perfectly sane, i feel the way you do as well man... i spend hours researching racing physics and tuning and things, but as you said.. too many opinions and not enough hard factual evidence to make any sort of conjecture, but it's still fun speculating
ChiShi
ps: why wouldn't you stiffen front bound and rear rebound to counteract entry overtsteer?
or does it not work like that and the softer setting lets the chassis rise but keep the tires in contact w/the ground? in this case... seems like you would have to experiment for ages b4 you found complementary bound/rebound settings..
anyways, you're perfectly sane, i feel the way you do as well man... i spend hours researching racing physics and tuning and things, but as you said.. too many opinions and not enough hard factual evidence to make any sort of conjecture, but it's still fun speculating
ChiShi
ps: why wouldn't you stiffen front bound and rear rebound to counteract entry overtsteer?
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Hi Sukerkin;
Just because i think that a high rebound setting in the game will cause the shock to push back with more force, doesn't mean i dont understand how the shock works, nor does it indicate a programming mistake by the devleloper.
I can explain it like this. variable speed windshield wipers. (whats is he smoking you are probably wondering! ) If you turn variable speed wipers to max, they will wipe at the fastest rate in some cars and the slowest rate in others. This doesn't mean that there is something wrong with the wipers in some cars, nor does it mean there was a mistake made, when programming the logic. Simply, the setting for 'max' can be applied to the interval or the frequency. So in GT3 i think the setting doesn't reflect the resistance in the shock, but the overall effect of the shock re-bounding.
Also, thanks for the links. In another thread you provided a link to real world tuning adjustments which was helpful for me. Lets hope GT4 doesn't leave us guessing as to what the in game settings are doing! Tuning is hard enough as it is!
Just because i think that a high rebound setting in the game will cause the shock to push back with more force, doesn't mean i dont understand how the shock works, nor does it indicate a programming mistake by the devleloper.
I can explain it like this. variable speed windshield wipers. (whats is he smoking you are probably wondering! ) If you turn variable speed wipers to max, they will wipe at the fastest rate in some cars and the slowest rate in others. This doesn't mean that there is something wrong with the wipers in some cars, nor does it mean there was a mistake made, when programming the logic. Simply, the setting for 'max' can be applied to the interval or the frequency. So in GT3 i think the setting doesn't reflect the resistance in the shock, but the overall effect of the shock re-bounding.
Also, thanks for the links. In another thread you provided a link to real world tuning adjustments which was helpful for me. Lets hope GT4 doesn't leave us guessing as to what the in game settings are doing! Tuning is hard enough as it is!
- 2,063
@EOE
I didn't mean to imply any lack of knowledge on your part my friend. My deepest apologies if that's the inference that came across.
You put forward a very interesting 'take' on the action of damper Rebound in the game i.e. that higher settings mean a faster return. I guess we'll never know for sure (unless we have a programmer from PD here who can enlighten us :hopeful: ?!).
Here's to GT4 being more clear in how it actuates tuning parameters :raises glass:.
@Chi
Your second paragraph is a fair description of how I was thinking on the matter. It doesn't actually take all that long to find a balance in the Dampers once you've settled on Springs, Toe, Camber, Ride Height and Stabalisers. Seriously, Damper adjustments are one area where I think you can tell pretty quickly if the adjustments are doing what you want or not (then again, my idea of 'pretty quickly' is if I can dial a car in in less than two hours ).
As to whether stiffer Rear Rebound counteracts entry oversteer, I would say probably not as, under a braking scenario, that would lessen rear wheel contact with the road. On a purely emperical basis, the 'rules of thumb' tables I've seen on Damper tweaking all suggest that a stiffer Rear Rebound causes corner entry oversteer rather than the reverse.
I didn't mean to imply any lack of knowledge on your part my friend. My deepest apologies if that's the inference that came across.
You put forward a very interesting 'take' on the action of damper Rebound in the game i.e. that higher settings mean a faster return. I guess we'll never know for sure (unless we have a programmer from PD here who can enlighten us :hopeful: ?!).
Here's to GT4 being more clear in how it actuates tuning parameters :raises glass:.
@Chi
Your second paragraph is a fair description of how I was thinking on the matter. It doesn't actually take all that long to find a balance in the Dampers once you've settled on Springs, Toe, Camber, Ride Height and Stabalisers
. Seriously, Damper adjustments are one area where I think you can tell pretty quickly if the adjustments are doing what you want or not (then again, my idea of 'pretty quickly' is if I can dial a car in in less than two hours ).As to whether stiffer Rear Rebound counteracts entry oversteer, I would say probably not as, under a braking scenario, that would lessen rear wheel contact with the road. On a purely emperical basis, the 'rules of thumb' tables I've seen on Damper tweaking all suggest that a stiffer Rear Rebound causes corner entry oversteer rather than the reverse.
- 11
No offence taken Sukerkin!
I agree with you about settings being very personal as to what works. Sometimes an adjustment that should improve a particular handling characteristic 'on paper' does the opposite for me in certain cars. And vice versa. Its pretty cool that the game can be so affected by personal driving style.
Cheers for promoting discussion!
I agree with you about settings being very personal as to what works. Sometimes an adjustment that should improve a particular handling characteristic 'on paper' does the opposite for me in certain cars. And vice versa. Its pretty cool that the game can be so affected by personal driving style.
Cheers for promoting discussion!
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- old-guy64
Sukerkin
No ruffled feathers, I just thought that I had unknowingly found some "secret" of tuning that was making me faster.
I am also doing some experimentation with brake settings to help get the rear of the car around.
But, in truth, since I broke down and bought another copy of Ace Combat 04, I haven't done a lot of racing.
No ruffled feathers, I just thought that I had unknowingly found some "secret" of tuning that was making me faster.
I am also doing some experimentation with brake settings to help get the rear of the car around.
But, in truth, since I broke down and bought another copy of Ace Combat 04, I haven't done a lot of racing.
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