Red Bull Lose DSQ Appeal

[NFSCARBON1]

I have sympathy for Ricciardo, he finished well at his home gp.
I haven't got any sympathy for the team however. The FIA told them what to do before the race and they ignored it. But what was worse is that the stewards warned them during the race, which they didn't have to do, yet they still ignored it.

To threaten leaving the sport over this is silly. I wonder if it is simply bluff so that they can influence the rules in their favour (the car is behind the others development wise. A rule change could help them like the tyres did last year).

 

[TenEightyOne]

Ok, replace was the wrong word, but instead they used a system that was not calibrated to the FIA's specification, against the rulings and specific instructions of the governing body, and relied on the data coming from that instrument, rather than the official FIA data.

He is guilty of breaching the rules...

Obviously, that's what's at the heart of the whole matter.

IRBR have been deemed to be guilty of breaking the rules by the race stewards on the advice of the FIA's Technical Delegate. (see the decision I linked in the OP). IRBR are trying to overturn that decision by means of appeal. Their defence seems to rest on the argument that the sensor was inconsistent. The FIA don't seem to deny the early inconsistencies but equally they seem satisfied that by Q and R the readings were correct. Post-race testing of the particular component in question has been satisfactory, according to Gill Sensors who make the component (quote in OP too I think).

 

[prisonermonkeys]

To threaten leaving the sport over this is silly. I wonder if it is simply bluff so that they can influence the rules in their favour (the car is behind the others development wise. A rule change could help them like the tyres did last year).

Almost certainly. Red Bull don't care how they win, so long as they do. If that means bullying the FIA into giving them an unfair advantage, then they will try to bully the FIA into giving them an unfair advantage. And then they will pretend that it was in the interests of the sport as a whole

 

[DG_Silva]

@NFSCARBON1 - Well, when you pull out of FOTA, the organisation that allows you to have a mouthpiece in the technical regulations, why should you wonder why the rules suddenly don't suit you any more. Now all of a sudden, because things aren't going their way and they are being subjected to the rules, Dr Mateschitz doesn't like that either.

 

[TenEightyOne]

@NFSCARBON1 - Well, when you pull out of FOTA, the organisation that allows you to have a mouthpiece in the technical regulations, why should you wonder why the rules suddenly don't suit you any more. Now all of a sudden, because things aren't going their way and they are being subjected to the rules, Dr Mateschitz doesn't like that either.

FOTA has been disbanded, hasn't it?

EDIT: Indeed it has.

 

[DG_Silva]

FOTA has been disbanded, hasn't it?

EDIT: Indeed it has.

Yes, but Red Bull, Toro Rosso and Ferrari all pulled out of FOTA in 2012, whereas the other teams remain members until this year.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Yes, but Red Bull, Toro Rosso and Ferrari all pulled out of FOTA in 2012, whereas the other teams remain members until this year.

That's academic in cases like this because for FOTA to have influence on a technical rule change it would have to be presented to them. To be presented to them it would have to be considered, formulated, and written. This would be done by, amongst others, the Technical Working Group (or to be correct the Technical arm of the Strategy Working Group). Red Bull get more say than some teams as they are a permanent member.

 

[Imari]

I seem to remember Sauber finishing well in Melbourne a few years ago, and then being disqualified for illegal rear wings.

They took it like men, and got on with the rest of the year.

It sucks for Ricciardo, and it sucks for Red Bull if the fuel sensor really was playing up. But they can't just ignore what the FIA tells them to do, and I hope they get the book thrown at them for that even if they're vindicated of everything else.

 

[DK]

Mateschitz pulls out the big guns.

No, not big guns. No, what's the phrase I mean? Oh, that's right, "has a whiny, spoiled toddler tantrum".

Here's the original article, I hope you guys can read German. Mateschitz is asked what would prompt Red Bull's departure from F1, and THEN is asked about the Australian GP.

 

[Famine]

I read the original context before I posted the above link (since that information is contained within the text of that link)...

Someone not having a tantrum or an axe to grind would have deflected the question of what it would take for them to quit.

 

[Dodzzz]

I'm happy if Red Bull quit

 

[Tired Tyres]

Except that would probably mean them pulling sponsorship from Toro Rosso as well and that might mean losing two teams instead of one.

 

[TheCracker]

I'm sure Mateschitz has no intention of seriously pulling out of F1, he's just flexing his muscles like Ferrari are prone to do now and then. They both have every bit as much to lose image-wise as the sport does itself.

 

[DG_Silva]

I'm sure there would be people willing to buy the teams' assets, Gene Haas being one for example. I'm sure there would be others, partcularly Arab oil sheiks, who would be interested.

 

[Pezzarinho17]

http://www1.skysports.com/f1/news/2...ull-are-extremely-confident-of-winning-appeal

The World Champions argument centres on the wording of the FIA's Technical Regulations with Article 5.1.4 stating "Fuel mass flow must not exceed 100kg/h". However, as it does not say that this reading has to come from the FIA's sensor Red Bull feel they can use their own measurements to prove they did not breach the regulations.

I'm sure there is another rule that states the flow measured by the FIA's sensor will be the primary reading.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I'm sure there is another rule that states the flow measured by the FIA's sensor will be the primary reading.

I can't actually see one; there's a specification that only one FIA fuel sensor may be fitted, a max-injection pressure (and the injector apertures don't appear to be standard), a specification that a team's own sensor devices must be upstream from the FIA's....

Perhaps IRBR spotted the loophole and thought they'd get one good race out of it, but I can't imagine that all the other teams would have missed that.


EDIT: Reading through, it actually says its the responsibility of the competitor to prove that the car complies. That's superseded by the prescribed scrutineering test but the fuel sensor isn't included in there.

There's some gubbins about FIA access to the data (which IRBR didn't obstruct) and an interesting point that no software solution can be used to verify a mechanical system. I think that's irrelevant in its meaning but literally relevant... a lawyer would use whichever favours her own argument the most, obviously.

IRBR might get away with this.

I bet there's a TD out to the teams for this coming race

 

[TheCracker]

I'm sure there would be people willing to buy the teams' assets, Gene Haas being one for example. I'm sure there would be others, partcularly Arab oil sheiks, who would be interested.

I wouldn't be so sure to be honest. The team's assets are small compared to the operating costs for a seasons racing and testing. I'm sure there must be contract clauses for any new team wanting to join the F1 circus that guarantee they'll compete for a number of seasons. Redbull currently spend about £230m a season.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Teams lease the bulk of their IT and transport infrastructure, the cars are obsolete after every race... I guess the only thing a team has that's worth anything from season-to-season is their wind tunnel. Apart from Ferrari

 

[Saidur_Ali]

I hope Red Bull win this appeal.

 

[MrWednesday]

I bet there's a TD out to the teams for this coming race

One of RB's arguments is that technical directives do not have regulatory value.

 

[LongbowX]

Deleted

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I hope Red Bull win this appeal.

Why? All it's going to do is create a murky loophole in the rules that the teams will happily exploit, undermining the point of the new engine regulations.

This is not a case of the FIA hanging a team out to dry with an obscure breach of the rules. They gave Red Bull every opportunity to correct the issue during the race, which they deliberately ignored.

 

[MrWednesday]

What if Red Bull are right that the sensor is unreliable and that the FIA's instructions unfairly disadvantaged them relative to their competitors?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

What if Red Bull are right that the sensor is unreliable and that the FIA's instructions unfairly disadvantaged them relative to their competitors?

Then they should still be disqualified for ignoring the rule that says they are not to change the part without permission. After all, Mercedes and Nico Rosberg did the same thing, but followed the FIA's instructions. Red Bull were given several opportunities to do the same, but ignored them. Being right about the sensor does not exonerate them from breaking other rules.

And what if by ignoring the FIA's instructions, Red Bull got an unfair advantage? After all, Ricciardo was warned late in the race that he was coming under threat from Magnussen and Button. Charlie Whiting has said that Red Bull were asked to change their system on lap five, and that Ricciardo was regularly and consistently using too much fuel. It stands to reason that if Ricciardo's fuel consumption was managed properly, he woulsnot have finished on the podium.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

You have to wonder what way RBR will go for the next two races, in regards to the sensor. Will they continue to use their own or will they use the FIA spec one? Whichever they choose could be pretty telling in how confident/unconfident they really are.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

They'll probably go for the FIA sensor. They know they'll get disqualified for anything else, and there is a risk that they will get a race ban if they continue to disregard the instructions, even if they prove the sensor they had was faulty.

You can already see that they are trying to stir up a frenzy the way they did with the tyres last year - Christian Horner has claimed that races could be settled by whoever has the most reliable sensor in their car.

 

[TenEightyOne]

What if Red Bull are right that the sensor is unreliable and that the FIA's instructions unfairly disadvantaged them relative to their competitors?

Academic, the sensor has been checked and is working normally.

The problem is that the rules don't appear to state that it has to be used; however one could argue that most of the other methods used to enforce the rules are not present in the rule book either. IRBR are correct on the letter of this (from what I can see) but not in the spirit.

Presumably someone else could have that sensor in the next race anyway?

 

[Tired Tyres]

What if Red Bull are right that the sensor is unreliable and that the FIA's instructions unfairly disadvantaged them relative to their competitors?

What is to stop that happening to any team? It's not favouring anyone over anyone else.

I hope Red Bull win this appeal.

Why? So the rules for 2014 can be written off after ONE race. Do you really think that would be a good idea?

The entirety of the new engine rules is built on a fuel flow meter principle.

 

[Soundtrack]

The entirety of the new engine rules is built on a fuel flow meter principle.

What makes the sensor’s accuracy even more mandatory, IMO.

 

[niky]

Academic, the sensor has been checked and is working normally.

The problem is that the rules don't appear to state that it has to be used; however one could argue that most of the other methods used to enforce the rules are not present in the rule book either. IRBR are correct on the letter of this (from what I can see) but not in the spirit.

Presumably someone else could have that sensor in the next race anyway?

Here you go:


http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/rules_and_regulations/technical_regulations/8699/fia.html

5.10.3 Homologated sensors must be fitted which directly measure the pressure, the temperature and the flow of the fuel supplied to the injectors, these signals must be supplied to the FIA data logger.
5.10.4 Only one homologated FIA fuel flow sensor may be fitted to the car which must be placed wholly within the fuel tank.

If I recall from the Stewards' report, the stipulation is that the FIA can waive the requirement, but the team need the FIA to approve their fuel map, first.