Reuters Announces Ferrari Economy Car

[iceburns288]

Taking an 8 liter engine and sticking a turbo in it is an easy way to make it have 1000+ horsepower (see Bugatti Veyron). Doing the same thing with a naturally aspirated 8 liter, would take the best engineers in the world. I am not saying Ferrari could do it. I am just saying that the amount of work, skills, development, design that goes into a high power naturally aspirated is way above what goes into obtaining the same results by sticking however many turbines one can fit

The Wizard.

Now, don't get me wrong, I know you are Italian. However I am absolutely insane about Ferrari. My newest pair of Ferrari shoes came in last week, and actually right now I'm wearing a Ferrari track meet shirt with a BB512LM on the back.

However, I want you to know that the F40LM is one of my favorite cars ever. It's just too good! BUT I don't want to see Ferrari's top model be another Dino. If it's gonna be a flagship, it's gonna have 12 cylinders in my opinion.

However, I believe immense power would come from a turbo'd V12 and I want to see that. Something like the 1450hp Williams (1.5 litres sheesh!) from the mid-80s would be awesome. Now, I want displacement for a Ferrari. I need torque. The 360 and 355 are awesome cars, just like all the previous Dinos, and they get around VERY quickly. But the 430 puts all that to shame with more than 380 lb-ft of torque which is why I can't wait for mine to be delivered.

If Ferrari builds a high-displacement engine (8 litres is good, the Enzo was 6 litres and had 660hp wow!) I do not want it turbo'd. Turbocharging an already powerful engine brings big problems. But if Ferrari goes with a 4 or 5 litre V12 and turbocharges it for 700+ horsepower then I am completely fine with that to be honest.

Like I said, the F40 and GTO are some of my favorite cars of all time and some of the best Ferraris ever made (despite being a coupe and a Dino). It's not JUST that it's turbocharged, but the fact that both are great cars as well. I'm just saying that a turbocharged Ferrari is no problem for me as long as it drives and acts like a Ferrari should, even though they're down 4 cylinders.

iceburns288, a complete and outright tifosi

 

[kennythebomb]

It should be this way in real life!

I agree

 

[kennythebomb]

I apologize for being a 'little' too rude and jumpy
Yeah, I took it a little too far, didn't I?

Anyway, no hard feelings. I was just trying to say that 'rosso' is just an adjective, just like 'red' is in English. Adjectives can be associated to many words, but not for that particular reason they can take their (the words themselves) place. That was all I was trying to say. Rosso is not a substitute for benzina, it's just an adjective that when used in sync with benzina, means 'gas with lead contents'.

Don't worry about this story anymore, I didn't have anything personal against you. I just had a bad day

It's alright, I understand.

 

[kennythebomb]

Kenneth. Have you ever heard of a Mitsubishi Evo VIII MR FQ-400? That's a 405 bhp 4 pot car. It's really not a hard feat. Even the standard Evo VIII has '276'bhp.

Ah sorry, i just spotted you're American. Therefore, to get any where near 300bhp you need at least 8 cylinders and silly amounts of displacement

Just joshing with ya

Yeah, plenty of 4 cylinder cars can be turbo'd to get over 400hp, I meant stock of course, and 276 is very respectable for a 4 cylinder, but almost no stock 4 banger comes with over 300 (That I know of)

 

[PS]

Yeah, plenty of 4 cylinder cars can be turbo'd to get over 400hp, I meant stock of course, and 276 is very respectable for a 4 cylinder, but almost no stock 4 banger comes with over 300 (That I know of)

I'm pretty sure the new STi has over 300. It was 300 in like 2004, so like any car normally does it should be about 302-310 or something.

 

[Driftster]

The Evo VI is supposed to have 300+ considering none of the #'s add up to it's 280 hp rating.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

I'm pretty sure the new STi has over 300. It was 300 in like 2004, so like any car normally does it should be about 302-310 or something.

Yes, but that is turbo'd

 

[TheWizard]

[...] <--- (lots of information, don't want to quote the whole thing)

I understand your point of view. Turbocharging an engine can be good and make it deliver immense amount of horsepower. But I am more into craftmanship, hard work, and tradition.

I wasn't saying turboes are bad, don't get me wrong.

I am just saying that, everything else held constant, the horsepower coming from a naturally aspirated engine is a sign of more effort, design, and work put into the engine, with respect to that same amount coming from turbocharging the engine.

I was not looking at different displacements, number of cylinders, or configurations of such cylinders. I was just saying (and still am ) that if two engines are given (one naturally aspirated and one turbocharged), with Xx cylinders and Y.y liters, and they both output Zzz horsepower, then the naturally aspirated one is just made better. Continuing the example, deprive the second engine of its turbine(s), and its horsepower will drop below the Zzz value of the first one.

Nothing against turboes, it was just my point of view on looking, from an engineering perspective, at two identical engines and stressing that, for the same output, the naturally aspirated engine has to be designed/constructed better - else it could not possibly have the same horsepower of the same turbocharged version of the engine.

The Wizard.

 

[iceburns288]

I was not looking at different displacements, number of cylinders, or configurations of such cylinders. I was just saying (and still am ) that if two engines are given (one naturally aspirated and one turbocharged), with Xx cylinders and Y.y liters, and they both output Zzz horsepower, then the naturally aspirated one is just made better. Continuing the example, deprive the second engine of its turbine(s), and its horsepower will drop below the Zzz value of the first one.

Nothing against turboes, it was just my point of view on looking, from an engineering perspective, at two identical engines and stressing that, for the same output, the naturally aspirated engine has to be designed/constructed better - else it could not possibly have the same horsepower of the same turbocharged version of the engine.

The Wizard.

Well, the thing is I was talking about non identical engines. Displacement = power. Look at the old muscle cars, they were terribly ineffecient but made up for it in sheer size. So, I was hoping Ferrari could produce a high-displacement V12 (aka Enzo) or a turbocharged V8 (F40) for the same amount of power.

I personally prefer the naturally aspirated engines myself as well. I just think it would be nice to see another turbo from Ferrari, they've only done two turbo production cars before I think (288GTOE doesn't count)

The point of a turbo is more power. So two identical engines (except one is turbod) producing the same power isn't really fair... the turbo engine should have more power because it can process more air.

I have more to say, can't right now though gotta go

 

[Emohawk]

I understand your point of view. Turbocharging an engine can be good and make it deliver immense amount of horsepower. But I am more into craftmanship, hard work, and tradition.

I wasn't saying turboes are bad, don't get me wrong.

I am just saying that, everything else held constant, the horsepower coming from a naturally aspirated engine is a sign of more effort, design, and work put into the engine, with respect to that same amount coming from turbocharging the engine.

I was not looking at different displacements, number of cylinders, or configurations of such cylinders. I was just saying (and still am ) that if two engines are given (one naturally aspirated and one turbocharged), with Xx cylinders and Y.y liters, and they both output Zzz horsepower, then the naturally aspirated one is just made better. Continuing the example, deprive the second engine of its turbine(s), and its horsepower will drop below the Zzz value of the first one.

Nothing against turboes, it was just my point of view on looking, from an engineering perspective, at two identical engines and stressing that, for the same output, the naturally aspirated engine has to be designed/constructed better - else it could not possibly have the same horsepower of the same turbocharged version of the engine.

The Wizard.

That doesn't prove anything.
Say you take the naturally aspirated engine in your example and reduce it's compression ratio by 5. This roughly equivalent to taking the turbo off the other engine. It now makes less power, of course. That doesn't mean it wasn't as well built to start with.

The turbocharged engine you made up in your example though, is a pretty shoddy device indeed. With all other things being equal, how could it put out only the same HP as it's NA counterpart? It doesn't happen in the real world.

 

[TheWizard]

The turbocharged engine you made up in your example though, is a pretty shoddy device indeed. With all other things being equal, how could it put out only the same HP as it's NA counterpart? It doesn't happen in the real world.

Guys, I know it doesn't happen exactly like I stated, in the real world. Mine was just a play on logical statements. That's all. Were to exist two identical engines, producing the same amount of power, the naturally aspirated would have to be better/have something more, else it wouldn't be able to reach the same amount of power of the turbocharged one.

Take the Ferrari Enzo, as an example (since it's been called so many times).

Displacement: ~6 liters
# Cylinders: 12
Horsepower: ~660
Turbo: n/a
Naturally Aspirated: yes

Now, let's take a similar turbocharged engine - Maybach Brabus SV V12:

Displacement: ~6.3 liters
# Cylinders: 12
Horsepower: ~640
Turbo: 2
Naturally Aspirated: n/a

I know the Brabus is meant to be a luxury car. Yet it has a top speed of ~195MPH (Enzo is in the ballpark of ~220MPH). But for the sake of the example and talking only about the engine, it can be seen that these two engines are quite similar. The Brabus engine is 0.3 liters larger than the Enzo, it has two turbochargers, yet it produces 20 horsepower less than the Enzo.

Now imagine what would happen if the Brabus engine would be gotten rid of the turbines - the horsepower would drop even further. It would have to, logically. It needs the turbines to have 640HP.

I am not trying to pick a fight over this.

I am just saying that if an engine needs something 'extra' in order to produce (roughly) the same power as a naturally aspirated engine, the latter has to compensate somehow, else it wouldn't be even close to the power produced by its turbocharged 'counterpart'. It has to be designed better, weight less, manufactured better. Else it would simply be impossible.

This is just how I see it, people will disagree and I am aware of this.
But to me 600 horsepower coming from a naturally aspirated engine count more than 600 horsepower coming from an engine than needs to be turbocharged in order to get that far.

The Wizard.

 

[MrktMkr1986]

Guys, I know it doesn't happen exactly like I stated, in the real world. Mine was just a play on logical statements. That's all. Were to exist two identical engines, producing the same amount of power, the naturally aspirated would have to be better/have something more, else it wouldn't be able to reach the same amount of power of the turbocharged one.

Take the Ferrari Enzo, as an example (since it's been called so many times).

Displacement: ~6 liters
# Cylinders: 12
Horsepower: ~660
Turbo: n/a
Naturally Aspirated: yes

Now, let's take a similar turbocharged engine - Maybach Brabus SV V12:

Displacement: ~6.3 liters
# Cylinders: 12
Horsepower: ~640
Turbo: 2
Naturally Aspirated: n/a

I know the Brabus is meant to be a luxury car. Yet it has a top speed of ~195MPH (Enzo is in the ballpark of ~220MPH). But for the sake of the example and talking only about the engine, it can be seen that these two engines are quite similar. The Brabus engine is 0.3 liters larger than the Enzo, it has two turbochargers, yet it produces 20 horsepower less than the Enzo.

Now imagine what would happen if the Brabus engine would be gotten rid of the turbines - the horsepower would drop even further. It would have to, logically. It needs the turbines to have 640HP.

I am not trying to pick a fight over this.

I am just saying that if an engine needs something 'extra' in order to produce (roughly) the same power as a naturally aspirated engine, the latter has to compensate somehow, else it wouldn't be even close to the power produced by its turbocharged 'counterpart'. It has to be designed better, weight less, manufactured better. Else it would simply be impossible.

This is just how I see it, people will disagree and I am aware of this.
But to me 600 horsepower coming from a naturally aspirated engine count more than 600 horsepower coming from an engine than needs to be turbocharged in order to get that far.

The Wizard.

I agree with everything you said except for one thing.

You didn't take into account torque figures. Where the Enzo has a maximum of 485 lb/ft of torque and NEEDS to rev to 8,200 before it reaches maximum power, the Brabus makes (this is just a guess as I do not have specs) 750+ lb/ft of torque AND makes it power and torque figures at a lower, more "user-friendly" rpm.

Weight is also a significant factor that was not taken into account. Where the Brabus weighs nearly 2.2 tons, the Enzo only weighs 3,009 pounds.

Acura RSX Type-S = 210 horsepower / 2,900lbs
Mitsubishi Eclipse GS-T = 210 horsepower / 3,000lbs

One would assume that the RSX is faster because of the power to weight. It's not. The RSX "only" has 140+ lb/ft of torque whereas the Eclipse has 214 lb/ft of torque. Turbos are better.

Turbo...

 

[TheWizard]

Now I want to see how long it takes MrktMkr1986 to jump in here and say:

Turbo...

You forgot to say it, I am really disappointed

I agree with everything you said except for one thing.

You didn't take into account torque figures. Where the Enzo has a maximum of 485 lb/ft of torque and NEEDS to rev to 8,200 before it reaches maximum power, the Brabus makes (this is just a guess as I do not have specs) 750+ lb/ft of torque AND makes it power and torque figures at a lower, more "user-friendly" rpm.

Weight is also a significant factor that was not taken into account. Where the Brabus weighs nearly 2.2 tons, the Enzo only weighs 3,009 pounds.

I was only looking at power, I was aware that the torque would be way higher, but I have only been considering power in my 'analysis'.

And, if I am not mistaken, if the power is taken at the engine, it should not matter what the final weight of the entire vehicle is

Anyway, let's quit 'arguing' about this. It will not take us anywhere.
As I stated, mine is just that: an opinion.

EDIT: You cheater You added it after you edited the post.

The Wizard.

 

[MrktMkr1986]

Now I want to see how long it takes MrktMkr1986 to jump in here and say:

Turbo...

You forgot to say it, I am really disappointed

*edited*

You may call me, Brian, by the way.

I was only looking at power, I was aware that the torque would be way higher, but I have only been considering power in my 'analysis'.

OK.

And, if I am not mistaken, if the power is taken at the engine, it should not matter what the final weight of the entire vehicle is

True.

Anyway, let's quit 'arguing' about this. It will not take us anywhere.
As I stated, mine is just that: an opinion.

No problem.

EDIT: You cheater You added it after you edited the post.

The Wizard.

 

[Omnis]

1000hp NA engine? might as well import an F1 engine. i wanna see ferrari make a car that will be king again...

something that is a steed among donkeys...

 

[kennythebomb]

1000hp NA engine? might as well import an F1 engine. i wanna see ferrari make a car that will be king again...

something that is a steed among donkeys...

Yeah, that would be quite an awesome car!

I read something interesting today, that the 2005 Ferrari SuperAmerica has these crystal things in the glass retractable roof that unfolds in 10 seconds, and those crystals can change the amount of light that comes in....crazy lol