Reverse Lights!

[Sohvakettu]

I was just wondering if you claimed the reverse ligth to be as essential as the actual reverse gear.

 

[P3nT4gR4m]

Good articles here, for those that are interested:
1 | 2 (4th entry) | 3 (2nd entry) | 4 (4th entry) | 5
6 (2nd post) | 7 | 8 (deferred lighting!)

Thanks man, that was fascinating! Last time I dabbled with level design I was using source engine, just at the start of normal maps and shader 2.0. It's well interesting to see how things have developed since then. They're still cheating with shadow/lightmaps but they've made them way more dynamic by the looks of things

 

[Neal]

Makes me smile every time I think of it!

Good stuff, that was the plan

I think you pretty much summed it all up on reverse lights too but what the hell...Reverse lights FTW

 

[Stonemonkey]

In look, no, you're quite right - there's no difference but in terms of processing power required to simulate a point lightsource a million or whatever miles away and the somewhat cheaty, directional method the difference is astronomical (no pun intended)

It's not exactly astronomical, it's only an extra normalization per vertex. With the compexity of lighting in modern games that's not much and along with the parallellisation in the Cell (thinking SIMD reciprocal sqrts) it might not cost anything at all.

Anyway, that discussion came about from some confusion between myself and Dravonic and the lighting could be done either as point lights or as directional lights and is down to the developers choice.


My original point was that I don't consider shadows as eye candy, if shadows are properly rendered relative to the light source, (whether that light source is directional or a point doesn't matter) they can be a very powerful visual indication of where objects and surfaces are in 3d space. If shadows are incorrect with respect to the light source or with each other then the player recieves conflicting visual information.

If you are simulating a moving lightsource such as the sun:

If it's a point light source you calculate new coordinates for the light.

If it's a directional light source you calculate a new angle, that could be done by modelling a point in space where your sun would be and working out the direction from that point to somewhere in the middle of your scene or for something rough and ready you could just use an angle that you increment slowly.

Whatever case you use, shadows also have to move otherwise your lighting of the objects and the shadows that the objects cast won't line up and will look terrible and quite possible be full of visual bugs.

As an extreme example, imagine standing looking at the face of a building that is well lit up by the sun that's behind you but the shadow of the building is coming towards you! Not very convincing I'd say.


This maybe explains a bit better than I can:
http://www.evanclosson.com/projects/realtimeshadows

Shadows are a very important piece of the puzzle in a virtual environment. They play a major role in the determination of special relationships between objects in a virtual scene. Without shadows the realism of a scene is lost and the spatial location of models can be ambiguous. The picture on the right illustrates the importance of shadows in the determination of spatial relationships. The scene on the left consists of a thin blue rectangle, a purple cube and one light source off in the distance a bit. Where is the light coming from? Where are the objects in relation to each other? Is the blue rectangle resting on the floor? Can shadows answer these questions? In the scene on the right, shadows are being cast and the answers to these questions are easily found.

 

[Griffith500]

Thanks man, that was fascinating! Last time I dabbled with level design I was using source engine, just at the start of normal maps and shader 2.0. It's well interesting to see how things have developed since then. They're still cheating with shadow/lightmaps but they've made them way more dynamic by the looks of things

Yeah, I've read every entry in that journal it's good stuff, he's got a real flair for just coming up with stuff that works!

By the bye, my last attempt at level design was with Worldcraft! Things really have moved on since then!

Shadows will always be cheatified, unless, as I understand it, we go full ray-tracing, but that's not likely.

Reverse lights FTW

But of course!

My original point was that I don't consider shadows as eye candy, if shadows are properly rendered relative to the light source, (whether that light source is directional or a point doesn't matter) they can be a very powerful visual indication of where objects and surfaces are in 3d space. If shadows are incorrect with respect to the light source or with each other then the player recieves conflicting visual information.

True enough, but GT's shadows are great!? They must also already be dynamic to some extent, since the car's attitude relative to the direction of the light source changes as you race around...? As for the environment, assuming the time-scale is not too accelerated, the various steps required to re-compute the scene-lighting (and shadowing!) can be deferred over multiple frames without the shadows jumping across the scenery (as it does in Assassin's Creed 2).

If headlights are going to be "projected" (I'm thinking of that pic of the SLS at SSR5), then I'd imagine some kind of aggregation of lighting is occurring (e.g. "deferred lighting"), paving the way for dynamic changes in lighting and for the possibility of a huge number of point-lights (get my drift?)

Not that this has anything to do with reversing lights...

 

[Stonemonkey]

True enough, but GT's shadows are great!? They must also already be dynamic to some extent, since the car's attitude relative to the direction of the light source changes as you race around...? As for the environment, assuming the time-scale is not too accelerated, the various steps required to re-compute the scene-lighting (and shadowing!) can be deferred over multiple frames without the shadows jumping across the scenery (as it does in Assassin's Creed 2).

If headlights are going to be "projected" (I'm thinking of that pic of the SLS at SSR5), then I'd imagine some kind of aggregation of lighting is occurring (e.g. "deferred lighting"), paving the way for dynamic changes in lighting and for the possibility of a huge number of point-lights (get my drift?)

Yep, dynamic shadows are needed for any moving objects. I've also had the feeling that the shadows from scenery and stuff might not be static or pre-rendered but more like temporary shadow maps that are created on the fly for whatever part of the track you're currently approaching and that something like that might be the cause of the annoying pauses some people get in the TT demo.

I'm pretty they'll use quite a few different lighting techniques like what is already seen from the shadows, the in car shadows(dashboard), the car shadows on the track and the scenery shadows are all dealt with differently.

 

[patriotzero]

We need Skidmarks before Reverse lights.
KAzunori makes light bulbs letters but when we asked about skidmarks he laughs whats it?
Who can see the bulbs letters? but everyone can see skidmarks..

 

[amar212]

Reverse lights are finally in, thank you and goodbye, move on folks.

http://www.gamersyde.com/stream_gran_turismo_5_e3_high_quality_gameplay_2-15955_en.html

 

[gtone339]

Reverse lights are finally in, thank you and goodbye, move on folks.

http://www.gamersyde.com/stream_gran_turismo_5_e3_high_quality_gameplay_2-15955_en.html

Correct. 👍

 

[Stratosphere03]

Reverse lights are finally in, thank you and goodbye, move on folks.

http://www.gamersyde.com/stream_gran_turismo_5_e3_high_quality_gameplay_2-15955_en.html

Beautiful. Add that to this list of things the whiners can no longer whine about.

 

[gtone339]

 

[TokyoDrift]

Great, but look how awful the jaggy shadows are in the interior... Totally ruins the detail they put into those interiors, but as I don't play in that view anyway, I guess I'm not too fussed.

 

[gtone339]

Great, but look how awful the jaggy shadows are in the interior... Totally ruins the detail they put into those interiors, but as I don't play in that view anyway, I guess I'm not too fussed.

remember this is taken off a Camera.

 

[DubVipers]

I like my reverse lights when I try to reverse in the dark. Tinted windows on the other hand...

 

[TokyoDrift]

remember this is taken off a Camera.

Ummm, the serrated/jaggy edges of the shadows on the interior are not a result of being shot via camera.

 

[Spagetti69]

You can have the reverse lights back in exchange for my 800 interiors please.

Thank you.

 

[Blitz187]

YAY!!!!!!! REVERSE LIGHTS are in!!!!!

 

[eSZee]

Reverse lights are finally in, thank you and goodbye, move on folks.

http://www.gamersyde.com/stream_gran_turismo_5_e3_high_quality_gameplay_2-15955_en.html

Does that mean that we can now blame all of those moaning about reverse lights, for the delay?

 

[Perkel]

Does that mean that we can now blame all of those moaning about reverse lights, for the delay?

yep ! kill those b****es lol

 

[Lucas]

Finally, reverse lights!


This has made my day.

 

[happycorey]

Next stop, SKIDMARKS!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[seanchump]

Next stop, SKIDMARKS!!!!!!!!!!!

haha that could be misinterpreted..

but yeah, glad to see reverse lights. 👍
It'd be nice if tires marked the road.

 

[premhz]

Skid marks are more important than reverse lights.Disappointed that they have yet to be seen but silly reverse lights are there. Glad to see reverse lights are in but i`d give them up in a heart beat to see a lambo drop two black snaking lines down a bit of track. Now thats more to do with racing than reverse lights! After all who really reverse`s when racing??

 

[Zonda_Guy]

Next stop, SKIDMARKS!!!!!!!!!!!

What are you talking about? That happened when everybody heard the release date.

 

[gtone339]

Ummm, the serrated/jaggy edges of the shadows on the interior are not a result of being shot via camera.

Yes this was recorded by using a camera, not direct shot of it really. I watched it on youtube and print screen it. Then I use MS paint to crop it.

 

[rudi555]

i kinda like reverse lights...only gt2 has those, but now gt5 also has those

 

[FlourescentBlak]

Funny thread. Reverse lights...meh. Now about the airbag. That would be interesting just to play GT5 in 3d and see what it's like when one is deployed.

 

[VXR]

Ah, could you imagine it; people trying to claim they never crash, so have never seen the airbag inflate.

 

[Obli]

i kinda like reverse lights...only gt2 has those, but now gt5 also has those

GT2 had reverse lights?

 

[MGS2 Snake]

i kinda like reverse lights...only gt2 has those, but now gt5 also has those

I don't remember GT2 having reverse lights.
What do you guys think?