Reversed suspension settings on some cars in GT6

@danardif1
I was just in a thread by XS that has some of HaB's tunes listed. I'm definitely going to apply several of the tunes I checked out. I was thinking of using my R8 AE for the Dream Car Championship and was actually going to take a look at those tunes as a place to start setting up the Audi. I may try Dante's tune with less pp. Glad to know the car handles well for you. I'm glad to have a source (GT Planet) that not only acknowledges the challenges of tuning in GT6 but has a lot of solutions also.
 
Lambofanghini
@danardif1
I was just in a thread by XS that has some of HaB's tunes listed. I'm definitely going to apply several of the tunes I checked out. I was thinking of using my R8 AE for the Dream Car Championship and was actually going to take a look at those tunes as a place to start setting up the Audi. I may try Dante's tune with less pp. Glad to know the car handles well for you. I'm glad to have a source (GT Planet) that not only acknowledges the challenges of tuning in GT6 but has a lot of solutions also.
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I completely agree. I'm a complete moron when it comes to tuning cars but once I've found a base setup I like I can then go and start tweaking it... it's just starting from scratch I can't do. My experience though has taught me that you have to take a wider look at what the car is doing, and often the solution is to work on something on the opposite end to get the desired result. Aero, suspension, differential, it's all a system that affects the car from front to back, and I've learned a lot just in the few weeks I've been on GT6 (I didn't do that much of my own setup work on GT5, as once I got into applying setups the GTP guys had already created so much variety I didn't need to do any of my own work!) and tweaking little things on the great setups guys like HaB have made for the cars I like to race (LMP and GT cars).

The new models for GT6 have made driving feedback much better for me now as well. I can now feel if I've done something good or bad to the car whereas before I'd have to put up with bad handling just because it produced a laptime. Now it's much more of a overall effort, my driving and my setup working in tandem.
 
Lambofanghini
It would even happen at 1.5-2.5. I was going for cornering grip for a very heavy 472hp classic up against much lighter more modern cars whereas blipping the throttle puts you onto a drift. Maybe I will get a new camera for Xmas and will be able to upload some pics. Thanks for the replies guys. I still just don't know why adjusting the front has reduced oversteer since the rear is at 0.0. See if you all can test it out.
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I noticed the same thing on the blue & yellow Audi GT3 car, setting 3.0 front and 0.0 rear helped stability, any setting over 0.0 made it oversteer (more than it does) , where as in GT5 i used to put camber of 0.8 - 2.0 at the rear on cars to stabilise them in the corners.
 
I don't believe there is any issue and it's quite likely the tyres are more accurately sized in GT6 (I think they were oversized in GT5 because many of us found ourselves running with max ride-heights). It's sounds like everyone is experiencing more rear end grip with reduced camber because there is more rubber in contact with the road which is able to support the weight transfer at that given instant. PD have also programmed in another aspect here as well, in that if you reduce the stiffness of the rear springs and roll bar, the car will have less rear grip at max. load because the increased chassis roll causes the tyres to go from leaning inwards to vertical to leaning outwards with the final condition resulting in less rubber in contact with the road. I doubt PD will go to the extreme of adding in suspension geometry options to get around this because it's just going to create so much confusion.
 
mirial
I don't believe there is any issue and it's quite likely the tyres are more accurately sized in GT6 (I think they were oversized in GT5 because many of us found ourselves running with max ride-heights). It's sounds like everyone is experiencing more rear end grip with reduced camber because there is more rubber in contact with the road which is able to support the weight transfer at that given instant. PD have also programmed in another aspect here as well, in that if you reduce the stiffness of the rear springs and roll bar, the car will have less rear grip at max. load because the increased chassis roll causes the tyres to go from leaning inwards to vertical to leaning outwards with the final condition resulting in less rubber in contact with the road. I doubt PD will go to the extreme of adding in suspension geometry options to get around this because it's just going to create so much confusion.
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So long as we can work around it, we should be fine, especially with the help of the tuning experts to help guide us through the challenges. That is, of course, unless PD wants to add in some more fine tuning options like you stated. I thought I was pretty good at tuning anything I wanted to drive till I hit a wall on a few cars in GT6. But with the new physics/tire model, weight transfer etc., I guess that's to be expected.
 
nasanu
But the camber settings you guys use in game are nothing near the levels they use in touring car racing, and touring cars are more stiff than road cars so if preparing a road car for the track 6 degrees plus would not be far off the mark as a starting point (softer the suspension the more roll -> the more camber you need to keep the tyre flat).

Hell redbull F1 was using 3 degrees, and that is F1 where they use FAR LESS camber than in touring car racing. It always makes me wonder when I see camber settings for GT games in the 0 to 2.0 range. Do these people not have good testing or are the camber settings in GT nothing at all like real life?
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My real world Spec Miata camber settings:

@ Mid-Ohio Sports Car Course -3.2 front and -2.8 rear. Mid-O likes camber. Many that I know are running 3.5 to 4.0 up front. You have to cheat to get that much out of a Spec Miata up front. Other fast racers are like 3.0 front and 3.5 rear.

@ Grattan, Gingerman, Nelson Ledges -3.0 front and -2.5 rear.

@ Waterford Hills Raceway -3.0 left front, -2.5 right front, -2.2 left rear, -2.0 right rear.
 
Sier_Pinski
A couple of useful replies to a thread I made a while back regarding this issue:

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...nst-gt5s-reversed-suspension-settings.235238/
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The comment by "adeadsnipermatt" about some of the best time trials being run with cars nose up is very interesting. You make a change to the front that effects the rear, but in some cases leaves the car looking odd, or maybe the change was just to shift more weight. Whenever I adjust rear camber in my problem cars I can see the change cosmetically but don't feel it, so I switch ends. It's weird driving my Nova around with an aggressive front camber look when I am really setting it that way to adjust the rear end. Interesting thread though, but I never had issues with this in GT5, or maybe I didn't notice it.
 
whether or not the camber settings are backwards from real life, they are backward from the in-game descriptions.

the same is true with LSD settings
 
LSD works just fine, but I've found the same issue with camber. Higher front camber increases understeer in entry and mid corner and higher rear camber increases oversteer, just the opposite as it should.
 
My Zeek MR2 GTS 400PS with comfort soft has high LSD settings and it gives slight understeer, but overall allows it to more stable in entry and exit. LSD is as it should be in GT6.
 
PsuPepperoni
so higher LSD settings have increased understeer in your experience?
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Don't judge the diff on over-under steer... judge it on which wheel spins; since that's what it's job is.
Higher accel and the outside rear goes red first, lower and the inside rear goes read first. That's exactly how it's supposed to work.
 
Dr_Watson
Don't judge the diff on over-under steer... judge it on which wheel spins; since that's what it's job is.
Higher accel and the outside rear goes red first, lower and the inside rear goes read first. That's exactly how it's supposed to work.
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That is probably a better way to judge it, but I was originally referencing the in-game descriptions of LSD operation, which only mention over/understeer. And they have not been helpful in my experience.
 
nasanu
But the camber settings you guys use in game are nothing near the levels they use in touring car racing, and touring cars are more stiff than road cars so if preparing a road car for the track 6 degrees plus would not be far off the mark as a starting point (softer the suspension the more roll -> the more camber you need to keep the tyre flat).

Hell redbull F1 was using 3 degrees, and that is F1 where they use FAR LESS camber than in touring car racing. It always makes me wonder when I see camber settings for GT games in the 0 to 2.0 range. Do these people not have good testing or are the camber settings in GT nothing at all like real life?
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6* of camber on a road car in real life? :lol:

I know a number of guys who regularly track their 997GT3's, and almost everyone uses 2.5* up front... and that's on a car that's known for it's turn in understeer.

The game is just that, a game, and there are a number of tuners who've tested extensively in previous versions of the game, so the variables and effects are known.
 
I am testing my Wangan Midnight replica - Legendary FC soon to be released on my replica tuning garage, full power at close to 500HP - still WIP and stock weight, I experimented with lowest spring rate front and back, lowest damper compression front and back, slightly higher extension, weakest ARB, more than 3 degree front camber and more than 2 rear camber. Driving at SSR7, surprisingly, it handled very well, it grip so good under braking on the first left turn ( up hill ramp ). This was on comfort soft ( street tire ) and has racing brakes kit. I can't believe how late I can brake on the 1st turn :D Wow, from over 285 kmh to just under 160 kmh in just over a second or maybe 2 :eek: It performed well on the next hairpin, the right down ramp exit, the high speed esses that leads to the 1st tunnel, the hairpin before the 2nd tunnel - all of them was smooth and with no drama. I love my FC3S. I looked at replay, and paused when the car is turning or braking hard into a corner, I can see the soft suspension allows the outside wheel camber to work it's magic :)
 
Dr_Watson
Don't judge the diff on over-under steer... judge it on which wheel spins; since that's what it's job is.
Higher accel and the outside rear goes red first, lower and the inside rear goes read first. That's exactly how it's supposed to work.
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You can induce oversteer or understeer if you modify the LSD, its purpose is not only to don't lose grip, and finally it works as it should, the more lock the more understeer.

I've been adjusting the Alfa MiTo for the current seasonal TT and what I see is that the whole suspension is backwards and the camber too, it's the usual work of PD, fix one thing and break two, if I was the KW suspension sponsor I wouldn't be happy at all.
 
eclipsee
You can induce oversteer or understeer if you modify the LSD, its purpose is not only to don't lose grip, and finally it works as it should, the more lock the more understeer.

I've been adjusting the Alfa MiTo for the current seasonal TT and what I see is that the whole suspension is backwards and the camber too, it's the usual work of PD, fix one thing and break two, if I was the KW suspension sponsor I wouldn't be happy at all.
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I will say that I have had greater success with LSD in GT6 than in GT5. I haven't put one on my Nova yet but probably will this weekend.
 
PsuPepperoni
That is probably a better way to judge it, but I was originally referencing the in-game descriptions of LSD operation, which only mention over/understeer. And they have not been helpful in my experience.
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Maybe because there is a bug in the description since GT3...

The description is for REAR TRAIN. This is the opposite for front trains.

Since GT3 (at least).

LSD are not easy to understand, esp. initial setting, once it's ok you start to study cases like rally cars, F1 cars or RR cars each time all what you think it's true is changed again.
 
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0.0/0.0 is faster than 0.5/0.5
0.5/0.5 is faster than 1.0/1.0
1.0/1.0 is faster than 1.5/1.5
(These are all compounding, meaning 0.0/0.0 is significantly faster than 2.0/2.0)

It's got nothing to do with what your camber angles are, it just takes grip away.
 
It sounds like maybe +/- have accidentally been reversed so positive camber is being applied instead of negative camber. Since you can't add positive camber in the settings there is no real way to check this, but it seems like a possibility.
 
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There are a couple of things that made me think "what if" in the camber settings.

a) What if the value isn't absolute but added to what the car originally has? It would also explain the zero degree setups of every stock car, there may be for example 2° by default which is displayed as zero and when you put in 2° it's added to the default, resulting in 4° total.

b) What if the value isn't a "live" value but measured at full suspension extension and suspension geometry during the actual stroke changes it to something completely different? Live For Speed is a good example of this, there can be 1.5° of difference between the setup value and the actual angle of the wheel.

c) What if the super high angles really just don't work? Again in LFS, I seem to have less than 3° in all my setups (live values, the setup values are around 1°) and those include full blown race cars running on slick tyres.
 
d) what if they tried really hard to have realistic physics AND great graphics but realized too late that the PS3 wasn't up to the job. So they cut a bunch of corners on the physics at the last minute to keep the graphics and as a result all camber does is shrink your contact patch and then not give it back in corners because that dynamic calculation was sacrificed for frame rates but they forgot to put in a hack to hide it.
 
e) They programmed 0 to give more grip in a straight line, but it bled over into cornering.

That seems more likely than the others, the PS3 should have no problem handling suspension as per d) and c) is answered by 0 giving more grip across the board.
 
Personally I think you can actually "feel" the 0.0 working as negative camber. The main extra grip with 0.0 camber, is really only noticed at high steering angles, aka, when negative camber adds cornering grip.
I have yet to try a single car where 0.1/0.1 has more grip than 0.0/0.0.
 
Dr_Watson
d) what if they tried really hard to have realistic physics AND great graphics but realized too late that the PS3 wasn't up to the job. So they cut a bunch of corners on the physics at the last minute to keep the graphics and as a result all camber does is shrink your contact patch and then not give it back in corners because that dynamic calculation was sacrificed for frame rates but they forgot to put in a hack to hide it.
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That gets my vote as the most likely "what if" scenario:lol:

CSLACR
Personally I think you can actually "feel" the 0.0 working as negative camber. The main extra grip with 0.0 camber, is really only noticed at high steering angles, aka, when negative camber adds cornering grip.
I have yet to try a single car where 0.1/0.1 has more grip than 0.0/0.0.
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My experience as well. I haven't found adding camber to help any car, unless it's an FF and you want less grip in the rear. Hard to believe they got this wrong but after GT5 nothing surprises me when it comes to tuning. :yuck:
 
For reference,

Current setup for Audi R8 LMS Team Oreca '10
528/1340/586
Improve body rigidity

Aero:
375/500

Suspension:
85/85
16.89/16.89
4/3
5/3
2/1

5.0/0.0 (4.0-6.0 seems to be the usable range, depending on controller, driving ability and track used)
-0.50/+0.80

Gears:
TS 217
3541
2550
1950
1525
1215
990
3462

LSD:
5/5/60 - (7/7/60 produces less wheelspin, but can snap around and kill you more easily)

BB:
4/4
 
CSLACR
Personally I think you can actually "feel" the 0.0 working as negative camber. The main extra grip with 0.0 camber, is really only noticed at high steering angles, aka, when negative camber adds cornering grip.
I have yet to try a single car where 0.1/0.1 has more grip than 0.0/0.0.
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Could this be because adding negative camber in the settings is actually adding positive camber to the car? Accidentally using + values instead of - values in the games programming seems like a plausible and easy enough mistake to make and as far as I can tell it would explain the camber tuning issues surfacing in the game. Feel free to disagree but I'm inclined to start with the simplest explanations.
 

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