Review: Clubsport Pedals (vs T500 RS)

[LogiForce]

I agree with you completely. If you come from unmodded Logitech G pedals then the T500 pedals are definitely a good step up already and will satisfy most of the users out there. And those really serious about racing sims, they can always upgrade like you and I did.

 

[Mr Latte]

Sandbox, good to see you started to get the benefits from the CSP and really its like the old saying "practice makes perfect" Thats a substantial improvment in a short time so well done.

Your reports are always interesting to read and your personal expression is something you make it easy for others to relate too. Kudos to you sir.

Looking forward to your CSRE report, lots.
Please PM me soon again, I had an idea.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Do these better pedals make much of difference in terms of pure speed compared to say the DFGT pedals in a game like GT5 with ABS: 1 and without? I think GT does a good job equalising any advantage compared to maybe other games regarding pedals.

 

[LogiForce]

The pedals do make a huge difference. You will gain faster lap times because you can be far more accurate in brake and throttle control.
You will need a Fanatec wheel to use the CSP with GT5 though.
Also the two pedals aren't even comparable. They work more accurate and very different, they feel different and you can make lot of adjustments to it so that you will feel comfortable using them.

I think Sandboxgod had a difference of 3 seconds in the first 10 laps. This was a comparison between the T500 RS pedals and the CSP in iRacing. And the T500 pedals are already much better then the DFGT pedals or G25/27 pedals.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

The pedals do make a huge difference. You will gain faster lap times because you can be far more accurate in brake and throttle control.
You will need a Fanatec wheel to use the CSP with GT5 though.
Also the two pedals aren't even comparable. They work more accurate and very different, they feel different and you can make lot of adjustments to it so that you will feel comfortable using them.

I think Sandboxgod had a difference of 3 seconds in the first 10 laps. This was a comparison between the T500 RS pedals and the CSP in iRacing. And the T500 pedals are already much better then the DFGT pedals or G25/27 pedals.

In GT5 though I don't think there will be much of a difference, maybe couple of tenths at maximum. I only have the DFGT so can't compare but surely the speed you can attain over a DFGT will be very marginal. Maybe just better consistency I would say. Anyone got all three to test?

 

[LogiForce]

In GT5 though I don't think there will be much of a difference, maybe couple of tenths at maximum. I only have the DFGT so can't compare but surely the speed you can attain over a DFGT will be very marginal. Maybe just better consistency I would say. Anyone got all three to test?

I have the Formula Force GP, G25, T500 RS an just the ClubSport pedals. I can't test the pedals in GT5 until I have the CSW for testing here.
I am sure someone can test it for you if you are that insecure about the meaning of accuracy.


I reckon you don't know car control techniques? Cause if you did you would know the importance of more precise pedal control for example. Plus since Kaz claims GT5 is a driving sim it should be making the same difference in game.

From a personal point I can't seriously belief that you consider these two pedals to be equal in accuracy of car control.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

I have the Formula Force GP, G25, T500 RS an just the ClubSport pedals. I can't test the pedals in GT5 until I have the CSW for testing here.
I am sure someone can test it for you if you are that insecure about the meaning of accuracy.


I reckon you don't know car control techniques? Cause if you did you would know the importance of more precise pedal control for example. Plus since Kaz claims GT5 is a driving sim it should be making the same difference in game.

From a personal point I can't seriously belief that you consider these two pedals to be equal in accuracy of car control.

I understand they are more accurate but in GT5 I think they equalise the equipment. The G25 and G27 were not officially supported due to clutch implementation if I recall correctly or something like that. As the DFGT was the latest official wheel for some time, I think they restrict users from anything above it getting any big advantage regards to pedals.

I'm talking about lap time, in GT5 I doubt there is very little difference, maybe a tenth or two like I mentioned. You can still be in the top 0.01% of GT5 players with a DFGT wheel and pedal set. Maybe games like iRacing there is a difference but in GT5 I don't think there is any difference really in terms of hot lapping speed attainable if you master any of these pedal sets.

 

[LogiForce]

Well the G25 and G27 are officially supported in GT5.
The DFGT is the official wheel for GT5 prologue, the T500 RS is the latest official wheel for GT5.
Also equalizing times because of equipment would make it an arcade game. A simulator that equals times isn't allowed to be called a simulator at all.
Just see it like a 2001 F1 car. You are asking that the cars of Ferrari should be penalized because they are much faster then the cars of Arrows and this is not being fair for Arrows because of worse equipment. It just doesn't work like that, but if it does work like that in GT5 then it's not a simulator.

I want to know now as well though. Does having CSP pedals have an advantage in GT5 or not?

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Well the G25 and G27 are officially supported in GT5.
The DFGT is the official wheel for GT5 prologue, the T500 RS is the latest official wheel for GT5.
Also equalizing times because of equipment would make it an arcade game. A simulator that equals times isn't allowed to be called a simulator at all.
Just see it like a 2001 F1 car. You are asking that the cars of Ferrari should be penalized because they are much faster then the cars of Arrows and this is not being fair for Arrows because of worse equipment. It just doesn't work like that, but if it does work like that in GT5 then it's not a simulator.

I want to know now as well though. Does having CSP pedals have an advantage in GT5 or not?

DFGT was the latest official wheel available on release of GT5. T500RS was released later and Logitech G25/G27 only got official support added in Spec 2.0 .

I think it is equalizing pedal values to an extent so you don't have as much precision values. It makes things fair like GT Academy to most users. Pad users can be competitive as well as DFGT to people with T500RS or Fanatec products. It is probably still easier to be faster with say Clubsport pedals as you can do delicate braking easier than DFGT pedals but the hardware potential in both depending on user should be as great. ABS 0 braking maybe CSP pedals have an advantage, well according to ISR they have but I'm not sure that is due to them not making full use of say other pedals such as the ones that come with the DFGT's.

It is more like Trulli's steering issues this year than different cars. Sure better wheels still give a better feeling in the high-end range and have higher steering speed, easier brake and throttle control regarding pedals, but there is at maximum I would say 2 tenths in terms of pure speed. The difference felt is more depending of the user. Some people might suck at using the DFGT but might get quite competent going to a high-end product. That difference is represented in hardware, not really software in GT5.

 

[LogiForce]

*sigh* I won't even try to win this arguiment but I have the Formula Force GT and those pedals are roughly the same as the DFGT pedals and to be honest and frank... they suck. The lack of resistance and accuracy of the pods (vs magnet sensors) makes it horrible to dose the gas or brake, thus I would have to have a bigger error margin on the exit of a corner. Especially on a street circuit like Monaco. Having a bigger margin means slower entry and exit of corners, which results in slower lap times. And I mean driving clean and not bumping into a border here and there. Plus I don't care if the car has ABS or whatever (although the less aids the better I can control the car) in this kind of situation. Without prober control of the gas pedal you'll have to just have bigger error margins.

I have tried this out in Dirt 3 on the PC on a Monte Carlo route with my T500 RS pedals (uses pots) vs the CSP. Using the same T500 RS wheel of course. I was definitely faster and when I tried to catch up to my "CSP ghost" I would end up against the wall because I couldn't control the throttle fine enough, causing me to slide a centimeter to much and hit the wall.

Anyhow this is my experience. Maybe Sandboxgod can say something about his experience with the CSP vs others or anyone else with CSP vs DFGT?

 

[wishywish]

*sigh* I won't even try to win this arguiment but I have the Formula Force GT and those pedals are roughly the same as the DFGT pedals and to be honest and frank... they suck. The lack of resistance and accuracy of the pods (vs magnet sensors) makes it horrible to dose the gas or brake, thus I would have to have a bigger error margin on the exit of a corner. Especially on a street circuit like Monaco. Having a bigger margin means slower entry and exit of corners, which results in slower lap times. And I mean driving clean and not bumping into a border here and there. Plus I don't care if the car has ABS or whatever (although the less aids the better I can control the car) in this kind of situation. Without prober control of the gas pedal you'll have to just have bigger error margins.

I have tried this out in Dirt 3 on the PC on a Monte Carlo route with my T500 RS pedals (uses pots) vs the CSP. Using the same T500 RS wheel of course. I was definitely faster and when I tried to catch up to my "CSP ghost" I would end up against the wall because I couldn't control the throttle fine enough, causing me to slide a centimeter to much and hit the wall.

Anyhow this is my experience. Maybe Sandboxgod can say something about his experience with the CSP vs others or anyone else with CSP vs DFGT?

The resistance just feel like marshmallow n travel distance is short on dfgt n g25 g27 pedals . I believe equipment makes a huge difference in zero electronic aids racing because you are relying on raw skill 100% to drive n not anymore abs or tcs.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

The resistance just feel like marshmallow n travel distance is short on dfgt n g25 g27 pedals . I believe equipment makes a huge difference in zero electronic aids racing because you are relying on raw skill 100% to drive n not anymore abs or tcs.

This reminds me, anyone got CSP's and Ferrari Virtual Academy Adrenaline Pack. That is no ABS and TCS driving. DFGT pedals seem fine on it but I'm interested in if people find they can get shorter braking differences with better pedals due to higher resolution or something like that. Would be good to test to see if you brake at a similar point which pedals can you stop quicker in from the same speed and at the same marker.

 

[Spagetti69]

Just set the vibration on the point of lock up.
Couple of laps muscle memory kicks in and bingo faster laps.

I've had the DFGT pedals and there not that good. Very similar to the Microsoft wheel pedals which I own.

No comparison really. Although a really good player who is fully competent using them would put up a good race.
CSP = consistency though. IMHO.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Just set the vibration on the point of lock up.
Couple of laps muscle memory kicks in and bingo faster laps.

I've had the DFGT pedals and there not that good. Very similar to the Microsoft wheel pedals which I own.

No comparison really. Although a really good player who is fully competent using them would put up a good race.
CSP = consistency though. IMHO.

Surely though the point of lock varies so vibration may put you off. Can't wait until force feedback pedals come out though, I think that will be the next big thing regarding sim driving if software and hardware is implemented right. You can get muscle memory with the DFGT pedals too within a lap or so I would say of a track.

In GT5 you can very competitive due to probably ABS:1, Dan was usually right at the top with them. I'm no way near as good as him using a DFGT but for example this: http://www.ferrarivirtualacademy.com/game/en/rankings.jsp?track=3&carModel=3

margin seems similar in this game towards the top people and I've not done many laps on that combo.

 

[sandboxgod]

Well other day I watched a guy that claimed he was on a controller and hit very good lap times in iRacing of all things (I could understand if this was Forza or GT5). He even gave me some tips and a setup which helped me shave off some seconds. So anything is possible.


I still think for me personally these CSPs has helped turn my Road racing career around. I just didnt understand ABS-0 driving really. All I knew was when I turned off ABS it was hard to turn into a corner if I applied my brakes (because I was locking them lol). Just the brake vibration alone helped turn me from a nooblet into a dangerous opponent that can at least claim a podium. I still have sooooo much to learn though! Racing online against all these 'aliens' is truly humbling.

For me personally the biggest dagger against the DFGT pedals is they just don't feel like a real car. Lets just take my wife's simple Ford Fusion. Her brakes feel way better. I want to feel like I'm immersed. I know I'm missing those scary g-forces that my friend's 650 hp car can produce. But beyond that I want to feel like I'm using real brakes, etc.

Lap times wise I think that would be interesting to compare DFP/DFGT to top of the line pedals sure. My friend has a DFP that I might be able to borrow. But I think I will be busy testing the CSR-E very shortly heh. But still that would be interesting. See a person use a DFGT with those pedals vs a DFGT + CSPs. I've seen people on iRacing forums claim that's their preferred setup (dfgt + CSP) cause it relays subtle ffb effects through the wheel + they have the precision the CSPs give. But alas, you guys are speaking of console games which sort of nukes that test

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Well other day I watched a guy that claimed he was on a controller and hit very good lap times in iRacing of all things (I could understand if this was Forza or GT5). He even gave me some tips and a setup which helped me shave off some seconds. So anything is possible.


I still think for me personally these CSPs has helped turn my Road racing career around. I just didnt understand ABS-0 driving really. All I knew was when I turned off ABS it was hard to turn into a corner if I applied my brakes (because I was locking them lol). Just the brake vibration alone helped turn me from a nooblet into a dangerous opponent that can at least claim a podium. I still have sooooo much to learn though! Racing online against all these 'aliens' is truly humbling.

For me personally the biggest dagger against the DFGT pedals is they just don't feel like a real car. Lets just take my wife's simple Ford Fusion. Her brakes feel way better. I want to feel like I'm immersed. I know I'm missing those scary g-forces that my friend's 650 hp car can produce. But beyond that I want to feel like I'm using real brakes, etc.

Lap times wise I think that would be interesting to compare DFP/DFGT to top of the line pedals sure. My friend has a DFP that I might be able to borrow. But I think I will be busy testing the CSR-E very shortly heh. But still that would be interesting. See a person use a DFGT with those pedals vs a DFGT + CSPs. I've seen people on iRacing forums claim that's their preferred setup (dfgt + CSP) cause it relays subtle ffb effects through the wheel + they have the precision the CSPs give. But alas, you guys are speaking of console games which sort of nukes that test

rFactor has really good control settings for keyboard and also controller users, probably better than console games as you can dial it in just the way you want.

You can tell through steering wheel feedback or visuals you have locked up.

They don't feel like a real car for sure as they don't have much resistance.

Sure would be interesting. G27 + CSP might be a better setup than a DFGT I would say even without experience due to the smoother and quickness of the wheel going by videos. Ferrari Virtual Academy is not a console game but a PC sim with netKar Pro physics which are pretty good and no ABS feels very good. You should get it, good fun.

 

[sandboxgod]

I never did purchase netkar pro. One of these days I'll have to make sure to get it.

That's the funny thing I dont appear to be getting feedback anymore on my T500RS wheel when the brakes are locking up. Now to think of it I do turn my FFB way down so just as an experiment I'll try turning it up.

But how would you be able to tell visually if the car's brakes locked up? I know if you drive an open wheeler you can see the brakes locked up. Is that what you refer to? Just want to make sure I am clear on this one heh

 

[Saidur_Ali]

I never did purchase netkar pro. One of these days I'll have to make sure to get it.

That's the funny thing I dont appear to be getting feedback anymore on my T500RS wheel when the brakes are locking up. Now to think of it I do turn my FFB way down so just as an experiment I'll try turning it up.

But how would you be able to tell visually if the car's brakes locked up? I know if you drive an open wheeler you can see the brakes locked up. Is that what you refer to? Just want to make sure I am clear on this one heh

You should also get this, you can compare your laps against the telemetry of a top F1 driver like Alonso.
http://www.ferrarivirtualacademy.com/game/en/index.jsp

You should go off the brakes when turning and obviously slow down enough to hit the apex on exit. The feedback through steering would feel like you can't turn as you might be just skidding forward due to locking up and also carrying too much speed.

From visuals you can see in cockpit view that the car is skidding and you look like you are not in control.