RIDOX Replica Garage-In Memory of TurnLeft-GT40,300ZX,F430,TVR,AEM S2000,Cizeta,TransAm Doug Nash

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Ferrari 458 Italia EU Lightweight Package Spec

Tuned to replicate Ferrari 458 Italia with Lightweight Spec
Comfort Soft



London_4.jpg



CAR : Ferrari 458 Italia '09
Tire : Comfort Soft


Specs EU Lightweight Package
Horsepower: 562 HP / 570 PS at 9000 RPM
Torque : 398.5 ft-lb at 6000 RPM
Power Limiter at : 99.9%
Weight: 1431 kg
Ballast : 140 kg
Ballast Position : 8
Weight Distribution : 43 / 57
Performance Points: 562



GT AUTO
NO Oil change
Improve Body Rigidity ( NOT INSTALLED )
Wheels : Stock or standard size PDI P525 in Dark Gray
Car Paint : Vintage Red or Rosso Scuderia



Tuning Parts Installed :
Fully Customizable Suspension
Adjustable LSD
Weight Reduction Stage 2


Syracuse_36.jpg


Suspension - OEM Yellow Springs from F430 Scuderia Adapted
OEM 458 Alignment

Front, Rear

Ride Height: 132 132 or 112 112 ( 20mm Lowered For Track )
Spring Rate: 12.69 15.33
Dampers (Compression): 4 3
Dampers (Extension): 4 6
Anti-Roll Bars: 4 4
Camber Angle: 0.7 1.3
Toe Angle: -0.06 0.09


LSD - E Diff
Rear
Initial Torque : 28
Acceleration Sensitivity: 45
Braking Sensitivity: 45


AERO
Fixed Front/Rear = 100/200


Syracuse_34.jpg



Brake Balance:
6/8 ( personal BB) or for ABS 0 wheel : 6/8, for ABS 1 - feel free to use your preferred brake balance.

Recommended setting for DS3 user :

Steering sensitivity at +1 or +2, all aids off, except ABS 1 ( if not comfortable with ABS 0 ) with 6/8 brake balance as starting point.

Notes :


A simple build for Ferarri 458 Italia, based on light weight spec 458 Italia 2011 MY, with minimum options resulted in lightest possible weight for 458 Italia, tipping the scales at 1505kg with full fuel tank. This build is no fuel version ( calculated based on about 100L fuel tank of 458 Italia, including reserve )

The suspension is based on 430 Scud yellow springs ( lowest rate ) as I could not confirm the spring rate of stock 458 Italia, and I have been told that 430 Scud rate is not much different to the 458 Italia.

OEM alignment has been used and 2 ride height, stock road height at 132mm and 112mm lowered usually for the track or when the owner wanted more sleek look. The 112mm height should be base, as the weight spec it's based on has no lift kit.

Rear diff is 2 way in similar setup to the GT3 replica build, the 458 Italia E-Diff is capable of dynamically lock the rear wheels in both direction ( drive and coast ) The high lock and preload is to get close to the track/CST OFF E-Diff calibration, aggressive and more suited to high grip tires track use.

To get a full experience of the 458 performance, highly recommended to drive it online with tire wear/fuel consumption. This will give the 458 fuel tank that is simulated, the car will be heavier and drive much better.

The 458 Italia was tuned and tested at various tracks, Apricot Hill, Tsukuba, London, Red Bull Ring, SSR5, and Midfield.

The real life record for Tsukuba is 1:02.2s, this should be possible even when online with fuel consumption/tire wear.

Tested offline at Tsukuba, it was capable of 1:01.7s lap, London 57s, and Apricot Hill 1:30s :eek:

For more challenge, try to beat Horst Von Saurma record during Auto Motor Und Sport Supertest, online at Nurburgring Nordschleife with fuel consumption/tire wear, aim to beat 7:38s with CS tire. The weight simulated should be similar to the real car record at 1540kg full fuel tank as driven by Mr Von Saurma.

Replays for Tsukuba, London and Apricot Hill has been included.
 

Attachments

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  • 4581m1sTsukubaCS.zip
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  • 458Italia57sLondonCS.zip
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When most people still got it wrong explaining LSD in GT5/6 and misleading others, this dude gives very good detailed explanation of how and why, read on and enjoy :

Yep, the initial setting is the initial pre-load of the diff.

the acceleration and deceleration is basically referring to the ramps then.


For example, a diff with high pre-load in real life will always be very tight even when not "locked"

A diff with increased ramps in either acceleration or deceleration will be tighter when the diff is after locking and the more aggressive the ramps the more the torque will be split evenly across both wheels.

For example, (sorry if this goes over the head of some or off-topic but it might help alittle bit) I rebuild quite a few BMW LSDs for roadcars when I find an evening or two free every so often.

As standard, the diff has a certain pre-load (can't remember the rate off hand now) by the spring plates putting pressure on the clutch plates inside the diff before it even starts working at all (this would be the inital value)

I could increase this by either putting extra plates in the diff and not quite machining the casing of the diff to allow for the extra thickness so that the spring plate is under more compression when unit is bolted back together.

Or I could use a stronger spring plate.




For the acceleration and deceleration values (ramps) I machine the ramp angles of the thrust plates which hold the cross pins so they ride up easier when the diff is locked which will again put more force on the clutch plates and transmit more torque to the free-wheeling wheel.

If I want a 1.5way, I machine the acceleration side of the ramps more.


originally, the stock units are 25% (transmit 25% torque to the wheel that isn't spinning) so I usually increase them to 40% for road-cars but I leave the pre-load (initial value) as is so when the lsd isn't locked it behaves just like standard so the balance of the car won't be effected such as understeer in turn in etc when not driving at full chat or so the inside wheel won't be skipping about or being a nuisance when parking etc.


For my drift car, I'm making a 75% 2-way with extra plates and little bit of extra pre-load however :D
In a sense, no....
But.... The LSD still has an initial torque loading (pre-load) that is holding the clutch-plates against eachother locking the wheels to a certain extent before you even put any power to the input shaft.

If anybody still doesn't quite understand, I can go out to the workshop and do a quick video of how much "torque" it takes to turn a output shaft on a diff with the other side locked in a vice and show the the oily bits inside too :D

And secondly, I'm afraid you still have it backwards... If the wheels are in a locked state much faster, the car will be less inclined to snap back the other way or get grip to pull out of a drift quickly.

if the diff is allowed to open slightly, the car will react more to leaving off throttle and follow the direction of the front wheels.


For example, if your drifting a car with an open diff once you have a nice angle and both wheels actually spinning on the rare occasion everything is all nice until you leave off the throttle when the diff suddenly remembers its an open diff and you'll end up loosing the drift and probably fishtailing uncontrollably in some cases as each wheel alternatively gets abit of grip out of the corner/roundabout etc (Ahh... the days of when I was learning to drift but didn't want to weld the diff on my first car :D)

with a welded diff, the car is alot more settled at a good angle and can hold drifts far longer and easier however but as CH has said once you really over-cook it you may spin out more often even if you lift completely.

with the open diff or mild LSD, the car will straight easier but its just holding the drift upto the point where the car is on the edge of spinning is far harder.
Hence why I put torque in inverted commas or a least I did the first time I started typing the post... Fecking iPhone acting up!
Don't think anybody here said the diff itself actually made torque(unless they've found something pretty special) but more referring to the torque (i.e the torque supplied by the engine to the input shaft and then to the spinning wheel) it transfers across to the opposite wheel (outside or whichever wheel has more grippt resistance and spinning less) under acceleration, deceleration and in initial "un-locked" state
An LSD doesn't fight against sliding really though especially when the car is already initiated into a slide and the wheels are spinning. What your saying is a locked differential doesn't promote sliding? That's like saying pulling the handbrake as a car starts to spin is going to make it easier to steer!

Don't know about you but a locked differential has only done two things in my experience of them...

1. Make steering and directions changes abit harder when going slow or excessive understeer on some vehicles

2. Make the car far more tailhappy under power or deceleration when steering input is applied and easy to hold slides as well as having good forward traction while doing so.

An open diff will always improve the abilty of a car to change direction quickly and be more responsive to steering input as your allowing the rear wheels to turn in their repsectice arcs more freely.

Which is why a car with an open diff will straighten quicker and sometimes too quicky than a car with a welded diff or aggressive 2-way but crap for holding drifts as you don't get the forward traction from both wheels spinning and the diff being too unstable when both wheels are on the point of slipping.


Some people say welded diffs are more predictable and prefer them to LSDs but it's just because they never used a proper LSD or one in good condition. A good LSD provides the best of both worlds where it will act like a locked diff when your power and deceleration so long drifts can be held with good forward speed as well as good initiation under heavy deceleration with the aid of a little weight transfer to the front but still being able to adjust drifts alittle better as it will be able to open a desired amount (set in the pre-load) when needed as well as staying open to allow the car be more responsive to direction changes when in more neutral driving.
An LSD doesn't transfer most of the power to the wheel with more grip. It transfers a percentage of torque that is already being supplied to the spinning wheel.


The reason you can over-power the LSD easier when the initial value is at 5 is because the diff is staying open longer and your able to provoke at least one wheel to break traction easier.

An LSD prevents slipping in terms of a variation in wheel speed between each driven wheel. In no way does an LSD prevent slipping or drifting in terms of the car itself. Only thing that prevents a car from drifting is use of alternating braking force to appropriate wheels, i.e; EBD, ASM etc

Putting it relatively basic terms... As Im too tired to think of a better way of describing it :P

An LSDs main job is to provide constant forward traction. Even when steering it still try's to maintain forward traction which is why a car with an LSD will do donuts easier as the rear wheels are trying to go in a straight line but it's only the front wheels that are forcing the car to spin around.

When drifting it's more or less the same principal only that yo have a diferent steering input such as opposite lock to stop the car spinning around.
Spot on.

Initial means what it says on the tin as in initial lock without any turning force being put on the input shaft and same for acceleration and deceleration such as at 60 in each case you'll have that rate when diff is under load from the input shaft (engine) when accelerating or output shafts (wheels) under deceleration.


On a real diff just to give an idea how this is done, intial (pre-load) is made by having spring plates putting pressure on the clutch plates inside the diff and as a result make it harder for the wheels to slip at different speeds to eachother under static load.

Acceleration and deceleration is got by having the cross pins that hold the gears inside the diff on basically a machined plate that the pins can ride up on when acceleration or decceleration force is applied. The easier the pins are allowed to ride up this plate by having a different angle, the more
The diff locks in that direction ie: acceleration or deceleration.

I'll try upload pictures of what I'm talking about soon.




For a drift car, locked diff is always better as TakeshiSkunk has covered.

Only dissadvantge is that a diff locked in all three states makes the car alittle less responsive to direction changes when needed when car is in a neutral state when no force is being applied to the rear wheels (both Accelerationg and decceleration are forces obviously from the engine)

This is why TwinturboCH said a proper LSD rather than a welded one is much better for drifting as the car is more responsive to your inputs on entry to the corner and through it when you want to adjust the angle.

People may say a welded diff is better as ut shouldn't open half way through a drift like an LSD... Answer to that is, they aren't really that good at drifting as you should really by only off throttle once on the corner an on it progressively for the rest (depending on type of corner obviously as some get tighter and slow right down such as tear drops) or they just have a crap LSD :D



In GT5, you can't really have a welded diff as the most you can go is 60 in any setting so it's really down to which setting suits you and the car best and only will really know from testing it and just trial and error.

For a controller, 60/60/60 seems good on every car from my experience and maybe playing around with the initial then if you find the car hard to intiate or adjust angle mid drift.

When using a wheel, you generally have much more control over the car since you can use te clutch for corrections too so the diff settings can make a more noticeable difference such as if you set the initial a little lower, pressing the clutch mid drift can help keep you from spinning out sometimes and keeping the drift going if you get the timing right.

Intiations are also alittle easier when having a lower initial force if your not using the handbrake as the car has less tendency to understeer.

Expand and read each quote, test it if you wish :) and if you have real life experience driving cars with custom LSD ( NISMO, OS Giken, Kaaz, Tomei, Spoon, ATS and others ) you can easily tell how initial / accel / braking works in GT6.
 
RUF RGT Unreleased Build
550PP based on GT3 Cup

Special Build RGT 550PP
Sports Medium Front / Sports Soft Rear


Syracuse_38.jpg



CAR : RUF RGT '00
Tire : Sports Medium Front / Sports Soft Rear


Specs
Horsepower: 516 HP / 523 PS at 8100 RPM
Torque : 353.3 ft-lb at 5600 RPM
Power Limiter at : 99.0%
Weight: 1240 kg
Ballast : 88 kg
Ballast Position : 50
Weight Distribution : 40 / 60
Performance Points: 550


GT AUTO
NO Oil change
Improve Body Rigidity ( INSTALLED ) -MANDATORY
Wheels : Stock or Standard Size OZ Ultraleggera in Black or BBS RS or +2 Inch Up PDI P525 in Black or White
Car Paint : Solid White or Black or Yellow Canary or Crystal Laurit Silver or GT6 Polarized 026 ( BLUE )



Tuning Parts Installed :
Engine Tuning Stage 3
Sports Computer
Racing Exhaust
Isometric Exhaust Manifold
Fully Customizable Suspension
Full Customizable Dog Clutch Transmission
Triple Plate Clutch Kit
Weight Reduction Stage 3
Carbon Hood Body Color
Racing Brakes Kit


Suspension - Eibach Spring Sachs Damper

Front, Rear
Ride Height: 70 70
Spring Rate: 8.66 10.24
Dampers (Compression): 4 8
Dampers (Extension): 4 7
Anti-Roll Bars: 4 5
Camber Angle: 1.0 2.0
Toe Angle: -0.05 0.00


DOG CLUTCH TRANSMISSION
Install all power parts
Set Default
Set Final 3.525
Set Auto Max Speed at 310kmh / 192mph
Adjust each gear :
1st 3.166
2nd 2.153
3rd 1.722
4th 1.400
5th 1.154
6th 0.964
Set Final 3.444 - OPTIMIZED FOR MIDFIELD, use 3.700 for shorter tracks



LSD Porsche 996 GT3 Cup 40/60 Low Preload-BASE
Rear
Initial Torque : 11
Acceleration Sensitivity: 24
Braking Sensitivity: 36


LSD Porsche 997 GT3 Cup 28/40 Low Preload - OPTIONAL
Rear
Initial Torque : 11
Acceleration Sensitivity: 17
Braking Sensitivity: 24


Syracuse_42.jpg


Brake Balance:
2/2 ( personal BB) or for ABS 0 wheel : 2/2, for ABS 1 - feel free to use your preferred brake balance.

Recommended setting for DS3 user :

Steering sensitivity at +1 or +2, all aids off, except ABS 1 ( if not comfortable with ABS 0 ) with 2/2 brake balance as starting point.


Notes :

A simple tune made from 996 GT3 Cup replica, some changes has been made for SM/SS tire fitment. The front SM tires gives easier handling car, focusing on consistency, less snappy, while still maintaining rear engine Porsche handling traits and minimal reduction of lap time compared to SS/SS tire.

This is 550PP version, intake tuning has been removed from 560PP version, and lower final at 3.444 ( Porsche final ) is used for higher speed track like Midfield, use 3.700 for tracks like Nurb GP/F.

Tested at various tracks, capable of 1:34s at Red Bull Ring and 1:11s at Midfield, pretty quick for SM/SS setup. Replay included.
 

Attachments

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  • RGT1m11sMidfield550PPSMSS.zip
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When most people still got it wrong explaining LSD in GT5/6 and misleading others, this dude gives very good detailed explanation of how and why, read on and enjoy :

Expand and read each quote, test it if you wish :) and if you have real life experience driving cars with custom LSD ( NISMO, OS Giken, Kaaz, Tomei, Spoon, ATS and others ) you can easily tell how initial / accel / braking works in GT6.

Good stuff, small technicalities hard for newbies.
I have collected good education package about LSD from YouTube, really prefer to start watching first EngineeringExplained LSD basics and torque transfer physics. After those checking others and soon newbie can understand "everything" about LSD.

LSD collection: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5YaJzsNBJoU-Pni3Sw1KUkBvoSs0365Y

One point what needs thinking, few examples:
Lets use imaginary values for easier visualisation, so using GT6 numbering in both, real-life and game examples. Cross using words initial/preload.
Real-life LSD: 0 preload, 30 acceleration, 15 deceleration.
= total lock on throttle is 30, brake side 15.
Real-life LSD: 5 preload 30 acceleration, 15 deceleration.
= total lock on throttle is 35, brake side 20.
Why this? I'm assuming at differential lock pin travels on end of ramp and preload spring washers are located next to clutch disc which is most usual or common way.
Preload pressures clutch pack to lock one amount, while locking pin still sits on rest position on middle, when torque is applied there it will spread ramps apart to their maximum spread, applying pressure to clutches, what's coming to added after initial, and total locking is those two pressures sum.

There is also different style of locks what are having initial pressure springs positioned differently, way how those are spreading ramps more apart in beginning as for initial load, on those locks initial is just using one part of total locking amount of ramp in advance and when torque is applied ramps are spread and rest of ramp giving rest of locking amount to use.

Then for GT6, there was few test made with hacked PS3 and GT6, those tests give results what supported theory of preload springs locations next to clutch, so preload/initial is added to acc/dec value. Mathematical side of that test also give results of saying numbers on GT6 are direct percentages, in all slots (I/A/D). But variation of torque applied to lock differs so depends few things how and when lock actually lock and how much (Grip/clutch/engine).
 
I have one question about LSD.

I'm currently looking for a real LSD which can be in GT6. Imagine a 30/90 ramp angle LSD, and 6 clutch plates.

What the number will be, 30% Acc, 90% Dec and approximately 14 Initial ? I know that the number refers to the degrees, but how converts it to percentage ?
 
I have one question about LSD.

I'm currently looking for a real LSD which can be in GT6. Imagine a 30/90 ramp angle LSD, and 6 clutch plates.

What the number will be, 30% Acc, 90% Dec and approximately 14 Initial ? I know that the number refers to the degrees, but how converts it to percentage ?
You can't transfer that directly to GT6, those your values can vary so much when speaking percentages of locking. But if you know real locking percentages of that then transferring to GT6 is fairly easy. Then comes point of decision whether you follow Ridox way of implementing percentages or my way. Both of us are seeing bit differently this. I'm sitting on my point of view, due "butt schematics" and hardcore mathematics, Ridox has his point of view :)

Btw 90 degree is practically only thing what can be transferred from that, 0 as deceleration, so 5 is closest to go.
 
I have one question about LSD.

I'm currently looking for a real LSD which can be in GT6. Imagine a 30/90 ramp angle LSD, and 6 clutch plates.

What the number will be, 30% Acc, 90% Dec and approximately 14 Initial ? I know that the number refers to the degrees, but how converts it to percentage ?

Locking % depends on many factors, you need to have that information from real life, often LSD sold also states the lock % on drive/coast, the number of clutch plates, the diameter, the type ( metal/carbon ), the cam or ramp angle, and the amount torque preload.

Ramp angle usually used in European cars ( ZF ), 30/90, that means 60/0 in cam angle. Cam generally used by Japanese LSD companies, the opposite to ramp. So, 30/90 ramp, mean about 60 cam angle in lock on drive and almost no lock in coast. The higher the ramp, the lower the lock, the higher the cam, the higher the lock. The amount of plates contributes to how strong the locking force applied, the ramp/cam angle affects how quick and how much lock ratio applied, both contributes to the total lock ( can be progressive or abrupt, can be weak or strong ). The higher the engine torque output, the bigger and more number of plates needed to reliably and firmly lock the diff. These often confuses people who never have installed or setup real life custom LSD like ZF or japanese brand like Kaaz or ATS.

Initial in GT6 relates to preload torque in clutch plate LSD, NISMO GT LSD for example varies from 6.5 to 8.5 kgfm preload, ATS hybrid LSD can have up to 20+kgfm preload, high preload usually used on high grip track car. The number of plates/diameter and cam angle varies from brand and usage.

As @OdeFinn says, we have different ways :) Sometimes I used real life experience as reference in setting LSD, sometimes I lowered or raise several clicks to percentage value depending on the car setup and tires.

What needs to be understood, IRL, clutch plate LSD lock can be affected by several factors, cam/ramp angle, number of plates, plates diameter and material used ( carbon, hybrid, metal ) and amount of preload. Then there are many types diff, from helical, viscous, salisbury, torque bias, detroit locker, spool, clutch, etc and to cater these, often I have to improvise, and go by feel :D I only wish the next GT will use similar diff simulation as Live For Speed, it has several types of diff simulated, from viscous, clutch, to open diff.
 
Take the Ferrari 458 Italia above as example, I have to improvise and setup the LSD in a way that I can still feel the positive locking while still being neutral on the limit. I used real life review on how the E-Diff perform with CST OFF, aggressive but still neutral with a hint of understeer on the limit at high speed. The real E-Diff can dynamically alter the lock strength in both drive and coast according to surface grip, tire and driver input, and it has several level of preset from low grip to RACE to CST OFF.

The 28/45/45 may seem high, but drive the 458 to see how it behaves on low speed to high speed, London is a good place to try, or just watch the replay, how the 458 is maneuvered around the tight bends and high speed direction change.
 
You can't transfer that directly to GT6, those your values can vary so much when speaking percentages of locking. But if you know real locking percentages of that then transferring to GT6 is fairly easy. Then comes point of decision whether you follow Ridox way of implementing percentages or my way. Both of us are seeing bit differently this. I'm sitting on my point of view, due "butt schematics" and hardcore mathematics, Ridox has his point of view :)

Btw 90 degree is practically only thing what can be transferred from that, 0 as deceleration, so 5 is closest to go.

Locking % depends on many factors, you need to have that information from real life, often LSD sold also states the lock % on drive/coast, the number of clutch plates, the diameter, the type ( metal/carbon ), the cam or ramp angle, and the amount torque preload.

Ramp angle usually used in European cars ( ZF ), 30/90, that means 60/0 in cam angle. Cam generally used by Japanese LSD companies, the opposite to ramp. So, 30/90 ramp, mean about 60 cam angle in lock on drive and almost no lock in coast. The higher the ramp, the lower the lock, the higher the cam, the higher the lock. The amount of plates contributes to how strong the locking force applied, the ramp/cam angle affects how quick and how much lock ratio applied, both contributes to the total lock ( can be progressive or abrupt, can be weak or strong ). The higher the engine torque output, the bigger and more number of plates needed to reliably and firmly lock the diff. These often confuses people who never have installed or setup real life custom LSD like ZF or japanese brand like Kaaz or ATS.

Initial in GT6 relates to preload torque in clutch plate LSD, NISMO GT LSD for example varies from 6.5 to 8.5 kgfm preload, ATS hybrid LSD can have up to 20+kgfm preload, high preload usually used on high grip track car. The number of plates/diameter and cam angle varies from brand and usage.

As @OdeFinn says, we have different ways :) Sometimes I used real life experience as reference in setting LSD, sometimes I lowered or raise several clicks to percentage value depending on the car setup and tires.

What needs to be understood, IRL, clutch plate LSD lock can be affected by several factors, cam/ramp angle, number of plates, plates diameter and material used ( carbon, hybrid, metal ) and amount of preload. Then there are many types diff, from helical, viscous, salisbury, torque bias, detroit locker, spool, clutch, etc and to cater these, often I have to improvise, and go by feel :D I only wish the next GT will use similar diff simulation as Live For Speed, it has several types of diff simulated, from viscous, clutch, to open diff.


Sadly I haven't the percentage of lock, only the cam angle and number of clutch plates, maybe should I give you the link of the real LSD and see what is the better option ? For more détails, it's a ZF type LSD for a BMW, 30/90 ramp angle. Thanks for all the tips and explanation, sadly I have any experience in real life of the several LSD's...
 
@lBt_33 just wondering are you speaking 3 clutch plate lock.. 3 per side?
If yes, you're probably looking 40% ZF lock. If you like to replicate that on "my way" you can try with your mentioned 14 initial, 26 accel and 5 decel. Better clutch installed on game and you might want to drop init and accel bit.
Guessing at 14 initial is for standard clutch, then something like 13/25/5 on dual and maybe on triple too.
 
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Sadly I haven't the percentage of lock, only the cam angle and number of clutch plates, maybe should I give you the link of the real LSD and see what is the better option ? For more détails, it's a ZF type LSD for a BMW, 30/90 ramp angle. Thanks for all the tips and explanation, sadly I have any experience in real life of the several LSD's...

Try to search the related model BMW forum, if the ZF diff from high performance model like M5 or M3, often there would be discussion on the LSD and lock %, the older BMW tend to have between 20-40% lock on drive and almost no lock on coast with low preload. The amount of plates usually depend on the power/torque output of the engine, older tend to have less and later cars may use more plates, again also depend on the model.
 
@lBt_33 just wondering are you speaking 3 clutch plate lock.. 3 per side?
If yes, you're probably looking 40% ZF lock. If you like to replicate that on "my way" you can try with your mentioned 14 initial, 26 accel and 5 decel. Better clutch installed on game and you might want to drop init and accel bit.
Guessing at 14 initial is for standard clutch, then something like 13/25/5 on dual and maybe on triple too.

It is, thanks for it I think it's a good option to start with, maybe need some clicks to fit the car, maybe no changes will be made. Thanks :)

Try to search the related model BMW forum, if the ZF diff from high performance model like M5 or M3, often there would be discussion on the LSD and lock %, the older BMW tend to have between 20-40% lock on drive and almost no lock on coast with low preload. The amount of plates usually depend on the power/torque output of the engine, older tend to have less and later cars may use more plates, again also depend on the model.

It's for the 135i, 3 clutch plates LSD 30/90 from Turner Motorsport if I remember right, will give you the link asap 👍
 
Try to search the related model BMW forum, if the ZF diff from high performance model like M5 or M3, often there would be discussion on the LSD and lock %, the older BMW tend to have between 20-40% lock on drive and almost no lock on coast with low preload. The amount of plates usually depend on the power/torque output of the engine, older tend to have less and later cars may use more plates, again also depend on the model.
Probably for replicating should use something between 6-9 as initial, and 34-31 as acceleration when chasing that 40% lock.. ?

It's for the 135i, 3 clutch plates LSD 30/90 from Turner Motorsport if I remember right, will give you the link asap 👍
40 to 60% locking as their web pages state, as a tuning lock it might have that bit higher preload, so trying that 14 in GT6 would be pretty fine test point.
 
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Ferrari 458 Italia EU Lightweight Package Spec

Tuned to replicate Ferrari 458 Italia with Lightweight Spec
Comfort Soft






CAR : Ferrari 458 Italia '09
Tire : Comfort Soft


Specs EU Lightweight Package
Horsepower: 562 HP / 570 PS at 9000 RPM
Torque : 398.5 ft-lb at 6000 RPM
Power Limiter at : 99.9%
Weight: 1431 kg
Ballast : 140 kg
Ballast Position : 8
Weight Distribution : 43 / 57
Performance Points: 562



GT AUTO
NO Oil change
Improve Body Rigidity ( NOT INSTALLED )
Wheels : Stock or standard size PDI P525 in Dark Gray
Car Paint : Vintage Red or Rosso Scuderia



Tuning Parts Installed :
Fully Customizable Suspension
Adjustable LSD
Weight Reduction Stage 2




Suspension - OEM Yellow Springs from F430 Scuderia Adapted
OEM 458 Alignment

Front, Rear

Ride Height: 132 132 or 112 112 ( 20mm Lowered For Track )
Spring Rate: 12.69 15.33
Dampers (Compression): 4 3
Dampers (Extension): 4 6
Anti-Roll Bars: 4 4
Camber Angle: 0.7 1.3
Toe Angle: -0.06 0.09


LSD - E Diff
Rear
Initial Torque : 28
Acceleration Sensitivity: 45
Braking Sensitivity: 45


AERO
Fixed Front/Rear = 100/200





Brake Balance:
6/8 ( personal BB) or for ABS 0 wheel : 6/8, for ABS 1 - feel free to use your preferred brake balance.

Recommended setting for DS3 user :

Steering sensitivity at +1 or +2, all aids off, except ABS 1 ( if not comfortable with ABS 0 ) with 6/8 brake balance as starting point.

Notes :


A simple build for Ferarri 458 Italia, based on light weight spec 458 Italia 2011 MY, with minimum options resulted in lightest possible weight for 458 Italia, tipping the scales at 1505kg with full fuel tank. This build is no fuel version ( calculated based on about 100L fuel tank of 458 Italia, including reserve )

The suspension is based on 430 Scud yellow springs ( lowest rate ) as I could not confirm the spring rate of stock 458 Italia, and I have been told that 430 Scud rate is not much different to the 458 Italia.

OEM alignment has been used and 2 ride height, stock road height at 132mm and 112mm lowered usually for the track or when the owner wanted more sleek look. The 112mm height should be base, as the weight spec it's based on has no lift kit.

Rear diff is 2 way in similar setup to the GT3 replica build, the 458 Italia E-Diff is capable of dynamically lock the rear wheels in both direction ( drive and coast ) The high lock and preload is to get close to the track/CST OFF E-Diff calibration, aggressive and more suited to high grip tires track use.

To get a full experience of the 458 performance, highly recommended to drive it online with tire wear/fuel consumption. This will give the 458 fuel tank that is simulated, the car will be heavier and drive much better.

The 458 Italia was tuned and tested at various tracks, Apricot Hill, Tsukuba, London, Red Bull Ring, SSR5, and Midfield.

The real life record for Tsukuba is 1:02.2s, this should be possible even when online with fuel consumption/tire wear.

Tested offline at Tsukuba, it was capable of 1:01.7s lap, London 57s, and Apricot Hill 1:30s :eek:

For more challenge, try to beat Horst Von Saurma record during Auto Motor Und Sport Supertest, online at Nurburgring Nordschleife with fuel consumption/tire wear, aim to beat 7:38s with CS tire. The weight simulated should be similar to the real car record at 1540kg full fuel tank as driven by Mr Von Saurma.

Replays for Tsukuba, London and Apricot Hill has been included.
You know Ridox, I'm really, really enjoying this tune of yours, wow. :cheers:These settings also work on the 2 Ferrari F430 cars. Do they work on the SP1?. Thanks for constantly adding new awsome replica tunes mate. :)Where are these:?
139. ESPRIT Nissan Skyline BNR34 GT-R
140. AMS Alpha 9 GTR
141. Top Secret R34 GTR Time Attack
142. JUN Auto Super GTR R34
143. JUN Hyper Lemon Evo V
I would really appreciate you to add them:bowdown:
 
You know Ridox, I'm really, really enjoying this tune of yours, wow. :cheers:These settings also work on the 2 Ferrari F430 cars. Do they work on the SP1?. Thanks for constantly adding new awsome replica tunes mate. :)Where are these:?
139. ESPRIT Nissan Skyline BNR34 GT-R
140. AMS Alpha 9 GTR
141. Top Secret R34 GTR Time Attack
142. JUN Auto Super GTR R34
143. JUN Hyper Lemon Evo V
I would really appreciate you to add them:bowdown:

Great to hear you are enjoying the 458 :D For those listed cars, they were GT5 built replicas using hybrid, I plan to build them in GT6, adapting the setup, but right now I'm spending most of my GT6 play time testing completed cars and posting them. The next one is 458 Challenge, it needs some more testing ( I got tech specs from Ferarri Official Document )

After that, I still have Amuse Fairladys, S2000 GT1 Turbo, Amuse Carbon R, Cadillac CTS V, Reventon and more supercars :P Also Gr A Rally cars like on my avatar and older Rally cars like Stratos ( Sega Rally Tribute )
 
Great to hear you are enjoying the 458 :D For those listed cars, they were GT5 built replicas using hybrid, I plan to build them in GT6, adapting the setup, but right now I'm spending most of my GT6 play time testing completed cars and posting them. The next one is 458 Challenge, it needs some more testing ( I got tech specs from Ferarri Official Document )

After that, I still have Amuse Fairladys, S2000 GT1 Turbo, Amuse Carbon R, Cadillac CTS V, Reventon and more supercars :P Also Gr A Rally cars like on my avatar and older Rally cars like Stratos ( Sega Rally Tribute )
That sounds great, a lot of work and build I suppose. I have technical specs for the Cadillac race car, if you want them you could fine tune from there. Did it gave you all the specs needed for 458?
I also have a pdf file with spec information of Colin McRay's Ford Escort Mk 1, you could build that for PC. And for the Ford Escort Rally Car '98. I also build the 2003 Tommi Makinen Subaru Impreza Rally Car, with his specs, it really works great. If you are interested, I will post it for you to see how they work, and if there are some spec you can use. :)
It's a promising pack of cars to be comming from you, can't wait,👍 I'll have to delete more cars in my garage filed with 499 cars now, to have room for those. Good day Ridox:cheers:
 
That sounds great, a lot of work and build I suppose. I have technical specs for the Cadillac race car, if you want them you could fine tune from there. Did it gave you all the specs needed for 458?
I also have a pdf file with spec information of Colin McRay's Ford Escort Mk 1, you could build that for PC. And for the Ford Escort Rally Car '98. I also build the 2003 Tommi Makinen Subaru Impreza Rally Car, with his specs, it really works great. If you are interested, I will post it for you to see how they work, and if there are some spec you can use. :)
It's a promising pack of cars to be comming from you, can't wait,👍 I'll have to delete more cars in my garage filed with 499 cars now, to have room for those. Good day Ridox:cheers:


The CTS-V is a road car :) Those I mentioned are already made, just needs final testing :P I'm stopping making new cars for a few months now, too busy :( so I only post completed cars. Thanks for the offer :cheers:
 
Posted this recently on a thread here in tuning forum, very informative with quotes and links to thread that further discusses no ABS driving :




"Ah, the ABS :) It's simple brake assist, and if this is your first time trying ABS 0, I would highly recommended give these threads a read ( they are from GT5 ).
But, before that, a quote from Amar212, a great write about ABS in GT5 that also applies in GT6 ( there's a little difference in how brake assist implemented in GT6 - which makes it easier to drive ABS 0 than in GT5 )

Here is my guide for the non-ABS, made for the wheel users few months ago.

NON-ABS BRAKING part #1
GENERAL ADVICES

- Different tyre-compounds call for the slightly different Brake Balance. You will notice how there is a difference in values if you experiment with the Comfort and Sport compound. However, it goes into category of the fine-tuning so results through experimenting will come with the time

- *ABS* in GT5 is not representation of the real-life ABS, it just uses that "name". ABS in GT5 is some kind of permanent braking assist *override* that not only prevents wheel-lock, but also have some invisible traction-control that nullify the suspension-modelling and equalises unique characteristics of the vehicles resulting with ability to turn while braking and never loose grip

- when ABS is OFF many cars will just go to snap-oversteer once the brakes are applied in full. You must never brake with full-constant power - you would never brake like that in the real-life too. In order to get maximum for your braking, you have to learn to brake is *sequences* - press/release/press/release/press/release/etc.

- you have to reconsider everything you know about braking-points and configurations for every track. With ABS off, suspension modelling becomes "free" and suddenly all elevations (lateral and longitudinal) of the surface becomes major factor in the driving. The sensation is vastly different than with ABS ON, so be prepared to revise everything you've learned to that point.

- all FR/MR/RR cars - being road or racing - have to be set with front bias noticeably stronger than rear. Through my testing I still haven't found any single FR/MR/RR car that calls for BB of the rear-brakes stronger than 2. To be honest, majority needs only 1. The key is to find proper front-strength with rear-one adjusted to point where rear brakes does not lock the rear-axle. You will know the point where rear-axle is not compromised once the car does not launch itself into snap-oversteer when braking. Once you set the rear-strength and bypass axle-lockup, you may fell that car is not stopping properly as it should. From that point, you have to force the front strength of braking until you find desired power.

On the above note, one of my last tests gave me 6/1 bias for the Ford Mark IV Race Car '67 where I needed 6/1 for proper balance of the stopping power.

NON ABS BRAKING Part #2
HOW TO MAKE NON-ABS BRAKING ACTUALLY WORK IN PRAXIS

This one have few steps.

Step A > The Mighty Sponge Ball™

Brake-pedals on all of the middle-prices wheels - Logitech DFP, DFGT, etc.. - are too loose and too soft to produce a usable sensitivity of travel in order to cope with the non-ABS braking. However, for there is a solution for that problem: The Mighty Sponge Ball™

1018a.jpg


Solution is simple: just insert the sponge under the brake and you're ready to go. Sponge will allow you to dose the actual brake-power more subtly and to actually have control of the brake-travel.

Of course, any hard-sponged material will do even better than simple sponge ball, especially high-density sponges, like neoprene for example. Once you've settled the step A) it is time for step B.

Step B > The Brake Balance Adjustment ™ - The Key to Master the non-ABS Braking

In order to achieve maximum performance and feel out of the GT5 physics engine and wheel support, you have to manually tweak few options in the game and accept few issues. First, you should go to the wheel option and set the steering to Simulation (although it affects only 270-wheels, but it is no-brainer, so just do it) and turn the Power Steering to OFF.

As for accepting issues, there is one thing you have to get use to when going into the universe of the non-ABS braking: you have to manually dial the ABS to OFF for the every car prior to the race in the Race Settings menu (unfortunately, you can't do it in the Settings menu in the Garage for the car of your choice). Once done, you're ready for the most important thing: The Brake Balance Adjustment ™

By default, every car in GT5 comes with Brake Balance set to 5/5 (front/rear). With ABS OFF and the default 5/5 value, there is no way you can properly drive the car, because that default value is messing the complete balance of the suspension and produces practically undrivable car. So, you have to manually adjust the Brake Balance for the every car you wish to use with ABS OFF.

General idea about adjust the Brake Balance comes form basic presumption of weight-distribution behaviour while braking: when you brake, the central mass of the vehicle and inertia moves from the back to the front. Thus all cars in real life have bigger and stronger brakes on the front-wheels and GT5 utilises the same logic. In order to adjust the BB, you have to re-distribute the BB values towards front. But before going onto that, one explanation.

Although Gran Turismo 5 uses the name of ABS (Anti Brake-Lock System) for that particular assist, I personally do not find it as representation/simulation of the actual ABS. I think it is nothing more than basic braking-assist which *overrides* the intertia-momentum on suspension and nullify the wheel-lock. Even ABS1 is too effective in what it does, so I do not find any mean in having the option to set it up to 10 (which game allows), so basically it is *ABS* just by name. I see it as nothing else but basic brake assist tool. Now back to BB setting.

Every car BB is different, but there is some generalisation possible. FR, RR and MR cars will all benefit from the higher setting towards the front. For example, I mainly use 3/1 setting for majority of my road FR, RR and MR cars. Of course, there are exceptions like Ferrari F40 where sheer mass of the vehicle asks for higher setting in the front in order to achieve proper distribution of the weight and stop the rear-axle from going into oversteer because of the insufficient braking-power on the front wheels > so for the F40 I use 5/1 setting for example and for F430 4/1 (I also use 4/1 for SLS, LFA, M3 and similar vehicles).

**notice: after the new suspension model introduced by 2.07 "Academy" update, the rear-axle balance is always best to keep in "1". If on "2", it will lock the rear-brakes too much, thus "1" is the only proper balance.

Actual weight of the vehicle makes a lot of difference too. Ferrari 599 calls for the 5/1 setting (Sport Hard tyres) because of the weight, while stock Corvette ZR-1 C6 RM - you mentioned it in your post - calls for 6/1 balance in order to achieve stability and efficiency of braking.

For FF and 4WD cars I generally use 3/2 or 4/3 setting in order to combat understeer on the front-wheels. GT does not take pad-size into concern (check the SHIRAKAWA Akira's elaborate here), but in order to combat understeer and lockup on FF and 4WD cars I tend to *equalize* the pressure on the front-axle by minimizing the deistribution of the braking-balance from the front wheels and force the rear-axle oversteer in order to have natural entry to the apex.

PLEASE NOTICE that I use Fanatec CSP pedals and values I've described are made with that in focus. Many of my friends who use Logitech G25/27 are using slightly lower settings (where I use 4/1 they use 3/1, etc..) because the threshold of the actual brake-sets is different for every manufacturer. Experimenting is the key.

Another thing becomes important when advanced settings comes into perspective: such as having Tire Wear ON, or driving on the wet surfaces with changeable weather/track conditions. To cut it short, the RA Adjust Functions (that in-race screen you can call-in and adjust some setting on the fly in the real-time with either Manetino-wheel on your DFGT or button-combination on the other wheels) becomes very important during the advanced races, because the tire-heat and degradation can call for altering the BB, as well as the wet surfaces. However, you will come to the appropriate conclusions by yourself through experimenting during time.

Small notice is how settings adjusted through RAMenu menu does not *stay* on the car through the venues if you quit the race before the end. So if you changed the settings during your Free Time run in online-lounge fro example, you will not have them applied once the race starts > values are set to those in main car-Settings menu. So if you come to the better solution through RAMenu during the Free race, you will have to alter them again through RAMenu once the race starts if you didn't changed them in the Settings menu.

Of course, GT5 now offers option to save multiple Settings (A/B/C, in the Settings menu), so you can manually set the ABS OFF setting for every car in one of the "Sheets" - under the B for example - in order to use it when you like. Notice how another issue is that you have to first set the desired Setting Sheet (B for example), than go to Race Options and set ABS to OFF, and than come back to settings and apply the proper BB settings. That is because once you set the ABS to OFF in the Race Option settings (where "A Settings Sheet" is always default one), it stays like that for the particular car everywhere you go with it (including online). If you opt for ABS OFF in the default "A Settings Sheet" so you will have to manually re-set it to 1 every time you want to race the car with the ABS ON. A bit confusing, but once you get used to it, it becomes just another Gran Turismo Player Masochistic Routine™.


NON-ABS BRAKING part #3
Step C >
Every Car Becomes Unique Without ABS™

I know that all above probably sounds complicating, but in fact it is not. Once you install the The Mighty Sponge Ball™ (for users of wheels that needs one) and get used to the logic of the Brake Balance settings, the new world opens. Once you disengage the braking-assist (one we call the ABS for reasons of commodity and easier perception for the casual players) you will finally get the proper feeling of the unique physics of the every car.

Disengaging the brake-assist and diving into the world of proper Brake Balance settings will enhance the unique "characteristics sensation" for every vehicle and make it even more *recognisable*. Once you begin to utilise the correct BB settings, you will be able to actually feel the pavement-ripping torque of the F40, the feel of the Aventador's mass decelerating while eating the front tires or difference between the braking-characteristics of all GT500 cars which pretty much handles inside the same handicap while ABS is turned on.

Take your time and test on the low-powered cars for start, preferably on Tsukuba and than moving to the Trial Mountain. Mazdas MX-5/RX-7 are great for FR cars basics, and once you master them you can move to the MR class with the F430 as the best car for that task. Of course, test all of them with their default tires in order to develop the feel for the actual tire-threshold and BB values you need to apply.

Good luck and I hope you'll have the great time once you indulge yourself into this beautiful universe.

And the OP for a no ABS guide thread :

So you want to Drive without ABS...

Taking the step to driving without ABS is a big one, the new characteristics unlocked from each car mean that driving in GT5 takes on a whole new dimension.

Starting Out

Input Devices:
Controller- difficult and I wouldn't advise it. That's not to say that it's not possible/fun. Recommended to set the brake and gas to either the right stick or to L2/R2.
DFGT (what I use)/G25/G27- Relatively mushy brake pedal, but the force feedback makes up for it in terms of feeling the brakes. Never had a real issue with the mushiness though.
Higher end (Clubsports etc.)- Should be great, never tried anything like this myself.

At the end of the day, no pedal is going to replicate the feedback you get from a real life brake.

Car choice and track choice are important to starting out. Choose a low powered car that you're comfortable with and is, most importantly, stable.

I'd recommend something like the Premium Honda Civic Type-R (EK) completely stock. It doesn't take too much to lock the wheels, however when it does it's neutral and doesn't spit you off into the nearest barrier. This way you can get used to dealing with front wheel lock up and learn how the car reacts. I'd certainly recommend front wheel drive cars to start with. RWD cars tend to react very differently to braking.

Track choice is also rather important, although it may not seem it. You'll want to choose something that has nice, simple corners that don't require some deft brake work: avoid Daytona, Suzuka and Tsukuba as turn 1 at those tracks are a nightmare to the inexperienced no ABSer. I'd recommend something like Monza to get used to high-speed braking and something like Nurburgring GP/D for more complexity and a bit more trailbraking.

Beginner's guide to no ABS brake balance settings:

What you have to realise when beginning driving with no ABS is that no car has the same braking characteristic. Some will be supremely stable (generally speaking FFs), some will react violently to trail braking (generally 4WDs and MRs) and some will have very little threshold before the tyres lock (Camaro SS '10 etc.).

First things first, brake balance is your friend. The GT5 standard 5:5 brake balance will send you into a spin the first time you touch the brakes. Because of this, you have to adjust the brake balance to suit each vehicle's individual characteristics, both through the overall braking power (how high your values are) and the ratio of front to rear bias. Generally speaking a bias at which the front locks before the rear is desirable, as in the case of lock up, you'll plow into the corner, rather than going in taillights first.

Technically having a brake bias where you can lock the brakes at any speed is best because you can reach the threshold at any speed, however I've found it to be faster and certainly more consistent to set so you can hold 100% for a few seconds (i.e. you'll lock up below 100mph). This is also a lot more realistic and a lot more fun.

Here's my method for getting a reasonable setting:

Road Cars:

Starting balance: 4:2

From there, if you find you are locking up the front too easily, move each value down 1, to 3:1. If you still find you're locking the front too easily, try 2:1 or 2:0. Beyond that you are losing too much braking force at high speed. It's also good to note that a brake value of 0, does not mean no braking on those wheels, it is just the minimum value.

In some cars, for example a lot of 4WD cars, you'll find that the rear slides out under trailbraking. This is why I always use a starting value of 5:2 for 4WDs. If you find you're locking too easily, try 4:1.

For MR cars, they are always a bit unstable and even with a good BB setting they'll generally still get loose when trailbraking. However start from 4:2 and tailor from there. With MRs, I generally find 4:2 or 4:1 to be best.

Racing Cars

Starting Balance: 6:3 (for older cars I'd start with 4-2, for example I use 4:1 on my Ford GT MkIV)

Because racing cars have higher grip tyres and downforce, they can withstand more braking force. That's not to say, however, that some racing cars won't lock easily. For example, the Autobacs Garaiya lock it's front tyres rather easily, so for that car I use a balance of 4:2.

Apply the same rules as for road cars to tailor your BB. Locking the rear? Try 6:2 or 5:2. Locking the front too easily? Try 4:2 or 5:2.

Important notes on BB setting:




    • These are just my tips, some people like to use higher balances, some people like lower ones. Find what suits you.
    • Each track may require a different balance. A track with lots of high speed braking zones (La Sarthe, Monza etc.) might be better if you raise your BB a bit. A track like Laguna Seca where trailbraking is very important and the heavy braking zones are bumpy (T2 & Corkscrew), might be better suited with a slightly lower bias.
    • Locking the inside wheel isn't necessarily a BB issue. It can also be down to a bad diff setting. The Deceleration value can be tailored to lock the inside or outside wheel first, try to get a happy medium.
    • Adjust your BB to suit the situation you're using it in. For example, in a one off hot lap, running higher brake balances is preferable to gain that higher braking force (especially at high speed). However in a race where tyre wear is a factor, you may want to lower your BB slightly to minimise lock up.
    • You'll also want to change you BB to suit the state of both the weather and the state of your tyres. If it's wet, you'll lock up a lot faster (I mean a lot, it's very easy to underestimate) so keep the same ration of F:R, but lower the values (using 6:3? Go to 4:2 or even 2:1 etc.). If your front tyres are getting worn too fast, flick the rear value up slightly, or take 1 click off your front one. If your rears are wearing, put a bit more front on. You'll also want to change your bias even if they're wearing evenly, however, keep the same ratio.
General Tips for Braking with no ABS




    • First off and very importantly; don't be afraid of locking up, it's not that big a deal. Simply ease back up on the pedal until your tyres regain grip. Don't jump off the pedal, especially if your turning, as that unsettles the car and will send an already unstable car, over the edge.
    • Listen and (if you're using a wheel) Feel. Due to the distinct lack of feedback that your pedal/stick/button gives you, you need to learn to listen to when the tyres are close to locking and, more importantly, feel it in the force feedback. You'll know when you feel it, it's a lightening of the wheel.
    • Understand threshold braking: The faster you are going the more force the brakes can apply to the tyres, as your speed decreases, so does the brake threshold (the exact point at which the tyre loses grip and locks). This means that in order to brake without ABS you need to tailor your brake pressure according to the speed at which you're entering the corner. For a fast corner, you may need to apply 100% pressure for a split second before slowly easing the pedal out, keeping it in line with the brake threshold for maximum braking efficiency. This is tricky to do and will take some practise. You can always hold a steady lowish pressure, however you will not be braking as effectively.
    • Trail Braking: turning uses up some of the available grip of your tyres, this means that in order to trail brake into a corner, you can't use all the available grip of the tyres by threshold braking. Instead you have to adjust your braking to the amount of steering angle you are using. More steering angle=less brake pressure. Simples.
    • When using no ABS you need to be aware of the track surface, if there's a bump in the braking zone (Corkscrew, Tokyo Reverse T1) you need to modulate the brake pedal to avoid lock up (ease up).
    • Some cars just don't work well without ABS, some do. Car choice is a key part of enjoying no ABS driving.
    • Smoking the inside wheel every now and then doesn't really matter, we all do it, however in a race where tyre wear is a factor, you may want to be a little more cautious.
    • Use it to your advantage. Some cars, especially 4WD ones, you can slide the car slightly by braking and turning hard. I find that if used correctly and appropriately, this can help you immensely on twisty tracks.
    • Don't be afraid to race people using ABS, challenge yourself.

      But why would I want to make myself slower?...

      Simply put, you won't. If you spend enough time practising and develop a feel for the brakes you'll be putting in times on a par with your ABS times. The fact is that if you get a perfect lap without ABS, it will be as good as one with, however you have more things to go wrong and therefore might not be as consistent.

      It will take time to get used to no ABS, it isn't going to happen overnight. So don't expect to be able to match your ABS times straight away, it may well take a good 10 hours of practise to get anywhere close.

      You need to practise. You need to get to know what brake balances work for you, how much you can brake while turning and the way the car reacts to braking in general.
      _____________________________________________________________________________________

      And most important of all: Have Fun
      It's not for some people and don't try and force it if you don't enjoy it. However, don't disregard turning ABS off without giving it a proper go first. 👍

I searched but couldn't find anything similar, however, apologies if it's already been done.

Anyway, I hope this is helpful and if anyone has any suggestions of what to add, please tell me and I'll do so.


And the threads that should give immense information and tips on driving without ABS :

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/abs-0-community-where-are-you.264980/

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/guide-so-you-want-to-drive-without-abs-please-read-op.267564/

Also, my GT5 no ABS video thread that shows how one drive without any assist :

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...86gt-turbo-600-hp-madrid-comfort-soft.265497/

Regarding GT5 vs GT6 brake balance :

The main difference is in GT5 the BB you set is what applied to the car, so if you use 5/5 BB, that's what you are using. GT6 has slight difference, even on 5/5 BB, each car now has built in bias that varies from car to car. so at 5/5 BB, the front wheel usually still have more brake force ( front bias ) and will lock up earlier, this allows GT6 cars to run higher rear BB without ABS ( a necessity to make the most of the braking force/rotation ) Back in GT5, if you use 5/5, both axle would lock up almost a the same time, so a front bias value is needed, like 7/3 or 3/1.

Right now in GT6, I often run higher rear BB than front, like 6/8, 5/8/, 7/10.

Another key difference is in GT5, brake strength was too much, lock up are easier to have. GT6 standard brakes is much weaker which allows easier braking modulation, to get GT5 brakes level in GT6, a racing brakes kit is needed."
 
Thanks, and this is one of the best detailed break down on a LSD :

http://www.musclecardiy.com/performance/how-to-rebuild-factory-limited-slip-differentials/

Read through from top to bottom, look through the detailed pictures, visualize what happens when the LSD works :P Enjoy :) Hope this helps those who still confused with how initial/prelaod relates to accel/braking in GT5/6.
This might confuse several GT6 players, it's good rebuild info for GM-style lock, lock style what's opposite to commonly used racing locks.
This has preload between side gears trying to separate them and adding pressure against clutch pack, more often you'll find preload located directly side of clutch pack acting opposite way, adding pressure to clutch pack and pressing side gears towards each other. That's way I believe PD used, as many thing supports that.
Main difference of GM style and "common" race LSD: GM style doesn't use ramps for spreading side gears, pinion gears and side gears teeth cut is doing this job with centrifugal (or what's that name) force. Need dictionary to explain better, wrong words used currently..
 
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This might confuse several GT6 players, it's good rebuild info for GM-style lock, lock style what's opposite to commonly used racing locks.
This has preload between side gears trying to separate them and adding pressure against clutch pack, more often you'll find preload located directly side of clutch pack acting opposite way, adding pressure to clutch pack and pressing side gears towards each other. That's way I believe PD used, as many thing supports that.
Main difference of GM style and "common" race LSD: GM style doesn't use ramps for spreading side gears, pinion gears and side gears teeth cut is doing this job with centrifugal (or what's that name) force. Need dictionary to explain better, wrong words used currently..

It's activation direction that you are referring to, the concept is similar. These are from Cusco LSD guide :

cuscoinitial.JPG


cuscoactivation.JPG

cuscolock.JPG


Cusco is one of the supporters of low initial torque LSD, ATS on the other hand tend to use much higher preload on their LSD.

The last picture explains well how GT5/6 LSD works :)

When I tested the Honda Prelude Sir 96 replica awhile ago, it uses stock LSD 50/30/0, I think I saw inner wheel spin at certain condition ( the outside may be orange, but the inside was red/smoking ), which shows the lower accel has lower locking % which took action when breakaway torque reached.

The S2000 GT1 Turbo when experimented also tend to spin the outside wheel when accel is higher than initial ( 32/36/9 ) than with ( 32/5/9 ), the initial/accel at 32/36 also much tighter particularly when on full throttle, partial throttle is where the initial effect can be felt most ( very useful for correcting mid corner line without upsetting the car )
 
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@Ridox2JZGTE MZ and HYBRID are most likely ways what GT6 uses on initial.
Those are functioning initial+accel/decel (i.e. 10/30/10= 40/20% lock).
RS is using part of overall locking percentage on initial. (I.e. 10/30/10= 30/10% lock, if these are having preload bigger than ramp will provide, then ramp has no meaning because preload is spreading side gears more than pin could do on ramp, there will be clearance between pin and ramp on such configuration.= bit exaggerating.. Stiff spring can do adding effect as previous..)
 
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@Ridox2JZGTE MZ and HYBRID are most likely ways what GT6 uses on initial.
Those are functioning initial+accel/decel (i.e. 10/30/10= 40/20% lock).
RS is using part of overall locking percentage on initial. (I.e. 10/30/10= 30/10% lock, if these are having preload bigger than ramp will provide, then ramp has no meaning because preload is spreading side gears more than pin could do on ramp, there will be clearance between pin and ramp on such configuration.= bit exaggerating.. Stiff spring can do adding effect as previous..)

The preload/initial effect can be easily felt when there is no or little torque acting on the diff, so if you set a LSD with low/medium preload and no lock at all under accel and coast, then when you overwhelm the resistance of the preload ( using throttle or braking ), it will go open. The stock LSD Prelude Type S '96 can show this, it has 35/-/- LSD, it has some resistance which makes the car stable, but it can easily spin the inside wheels on hard exit, under braking when the engine braking torque reach break way ( 35 ), it will go open and when you go into corner right after braking ( no throttle applied yet - no torque acting on the diff, it will have some resistance from preload ). So, in essence, the preload/initial can be easily felt when transitioning from on power to under braking or vice versa ( mid corner ), and in real life, this is where drivers would generally setup the preload to hit the sweet spot, stabilize the car while not making the car too tight in neutral state after braking and too tight accelerating to exit a corner.

When you set a preload high enough, it can be used to stabilize the car during steady state cornering + partial throttle ( important when running low grip tires like comfort ), for example at Big Willow long right curve and Apricot Hill left curve ( try depressing the clutch while doing this :P depending on the amount of initial, it can give interesting result ). Running too low initial/preload on this situation can cause sudden changes to the rear, especially if you run high lock accel ( sudden tightness + outside wheelspin = oversteer as you increase the throttle/throttle spike/rough input ). Most never knew/experience this as they stuck with low accel and initial + high grip tires in GT6.


The stock LSD from Prelude Sir 96 has 50/30/-, you can also still spin the inner wheels a bit ( glows orange while outside is not ) when powering from low speed corner ( use CH tire, fit low turbo ).

If you have clutch + wheel in GT6, try braking from high speed entering a corner using high power car with low grip tires while depressing the clutch with high preload LSD then with low preload LSD or open diff ( use car with -/-/- stock LSD ) or depress it right after braking.

The GT6 LSD is quite similar to Live For Speed clutch pack LSD in operation. Sometimes it can be felt that initial/preload stack up with accel/braking, the inferior tire model and FFB is part of the reason when compared to superior LFS physics.

What happens with 5/60/60 or -/60/60, when there's speed difference between wheels, it will lock as it should at max 60, otherwise it will be close to open ( 5 initial ) or fully open with 0 ( not possible ) when there's no load on the diff. Drifters often use this in GT5/6, as it allows easier steering when brakes or throttle is released. Serious wheel+clutch drifters ( who do tandem or comp ) tend to not use ABS, in order to make full use of the LSD preload that they chose to suit their style/skill.
 
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I don't have wheel + clutch, so if anyone have, please try it, hope I'm right :lol: :P Also be sure to DISABLE ABS :P The brake assist is so perfect that it masked the car reaction.
IRL, the LSD often said to be poor man's ABS effect :lol:

Come to think of it, I remembered that in GT5/6 if using stick, pressing the handbrake for a few seconds while going straight, will make the engine dis-engage ( gear indicator greyed out ) and revs dropped to idle while traveling at speed. Try it at Apricot hill - main straight, go to 90+ or 120+ mph on 5th or 4th gear, hold the handbrake while keeping steering straight. The gear indicator should be greyed out, and revs dropped to idle, coasting :) Weave side to side, enter 1st turn steering full left or brake while turn or apply throttle mid corner to see the effect of preload/initial combo, 60/60/60, 5/60/60, 60/5/5, 60/60/5 or 5/60/5 ( closest to Weismann Locker ? ).
 
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@Ridox2JZGTE tried both Prelude's, with my wheel and clutch, results aren't surprising me, initial stays constantly active as it should, transferring that "promised" amount of torque on Type S, meaning pumping clutch during cornering, changing throttle amount or anything doesnt change tire slippage from "linear" locking of initial amount.
Sir version works also as it should, keeping promised locking of initial, not changing it until using throttle too, what makes it lock wheels more, as it should and starts to pull understeer on car.
Everything works exactly as it should.
Only surprise was how prefect FFB effect is, it felt just same as it feels on real life on similar situation, easy to analyse what's happening on drive wheels, don't need to look any tire indicators to understand how it works, indicators checked too even meaningless after perfect FFB results, indicators said same as FFB.
I'm using G27 and game settings controller steering sensitivity 6, force feedback max torque 6, force feedback sensitivity 10. Steering characteristics; steering type Simulation, power-assisted steering On. And tweaking G27 deadzone to minimal by switching first it to 670degree and then back to 900 degree(proven to get about 4 to 6 degree smaller deadzone than just default connecting it to ps3)
Adding here soon link for one video, about how torque transfer goes on LSD. Follows what we're saying here and how GT6 utilises LSD.
 
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@Ridox2JZGTE tried both Prelude's, with my wheel and clutch, results aren't surprising me, initial stays constantly active as it should, transferring that "promised" amount of torque on Type S, meaning pumping clutch during cornering, changing throttle amount or anything doesnt change tire slippage from "linear" locking of initial amount.
Sir version works also as it should, keeping promised locking of initial, not changing it until using throttle too, what makes it lock wheels more, as it should and starts to pull understeer on car.
Everything works exactly as it should.
Only surprise was how prefect FFB effect is, it felt just same as it feels on real life on similar situation, easy to analyse what's happening on drive wheels, don't need to look any tire indicators to understand how it works, indicators checked too even meaningless after perfect FFB results, indicators said same as FFB.
I'm using G27 and game settings controller steering sensitivity 6, force feedback max torque 6, force feedback sensitivity 10. Steering characteristics; steering type Simulation, power-assisted steering On. And tweaking G27 deadzone to minimal by switching first it to 670degree and then back to 900 degree(proven to get about 4 to 6 degree smaller deadzone than just default connecting it to ps3)
Adding here soon link for one video, about how torque transfer goes on LSD. Follows what we're saying here and how GT6 utilises LSD.

Will test it too, curious to see how it drives and how it reacts to different inputs. GT6 made a very good a thing with the LSD, one of the closer behavior to the reality in the game I think 👍
 
@Ridox2JZGTE most of people didn't understand actual meaning of locking percentage, that makes their understanding hard considering LSD working.
I.e. on case where other wheel is in the air and other having "perfect" grip on ground practically all power goes to wheel on air, and nothing on ground with open differential, 100% wasted torque. But same case with i.e. 35% lock(lsd) it will still roll wheel on the air pretty fast, but 35% of power/torque is transferred to grounded wheel, so 65% power is still wasted on wheel what's in the air, but car starts to move.
Tried to find good YouTube video for education manner on this but no luck with it.
There is one Engineering Explained video telling about similar thing, but it is on same thing with different approach, explaining torque split by delivered torque to ground by available grip, but not by delivered torque thru axles, confusing if trying to understand lock percentage from it.

Edit: hmm something smells on my example.. Gotta think bit.. Idea is right sure but are words too? Will check.
Situation on cornering and both wheels on ground changes thing a bit, base is same but where torque goes and how much is then ratio/speed/torque related ratio, I'm trying to translate my native language thoughts into English.. Hmm.. Words like speed difference ratio etc popping on head. This is not so easy to translate :)
Hmm forces applied on wheels can vary amount of locking percentage, 35% difference between wheels.. Hmm..
That's it, and my example sucks, that above example presents 30% lock. 65-35=30

probably brain fart, will get later to this.

I need to do research for this, too many years gone by this.
Argh readers should take above with grain of salt, I'll check solid results soon.
 
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@Ridox2JZGTE most of people didn't understand actual meaning of locking percentage, that makes their understanding hard considering LSD working.
I.e. on case where other wheel is in the air and other having "perfect" grip on ground practically all power goes to wheel on air, and nothing on ground with open differential, 100% wasted torque. But same case with i.e. 35% lock(lsd) it will still roll wheel on the air pretty fast, but 35% of power/torque is transferred to grounded wheel, so 65% power is still wasted on wheel what's in the air, but car starts to move.
Tried to find good YouTube video for education manner on this but no luck with it.
There is one Engineering Explained video telling about similar thing, but it is on same thing with different approach, explaining torque split by delivered torque to ground by available grip, but not by delivered torque thru axles, confusing if trying to understand lock percentage from it.

Edit: hmm something smells on my example.. Gotta think bit.. Idea is right sure but are words too? Will check.
Situation on cornering and both wheels on ground changes thing a bit, base is same but where torque goes and how much is then ratio/speed/torque related ratio, I'm trying to translate my native language thoughts into English.. Hmm.. Words like speed difference ratio etc popping on head. This is not so easy to translate :)
Hmm forces applied on wheels can vary amount of locking percentage, 35% difference between wheels.. Hmm..
That's it, and my example sucks, that above example presents 30% lock. 65-35=30

I need to do research for this, too many years gone by this.
Argh readers should take above with grain of salt, I'll check solid results soon.

Those lock ratio, torque send depend a lot on the type of diff, viscous, torque bias, detroit locker, salisbury, spool, weismann locker, cam & pawl ( ZF ) all going for the same purpose but in different ways :) I will put one of the best description of these LSD from a patent document :)
 
Those lock ratio, torque send depend a lot on the type of diff, viscous, torque bias, detroit locker, salisbury, spool, weismann locker, cam & pawl ( ZF ) all going for the same purpose but in different ways :) I will put one of the best description of these LSD from a patent document :)
Internet is such a bad place for digging truth, I'm getting only really weird examples and mathematic formulas, I'm still in believe of first if my example is correct, 35% of torque applied on spinning wheel will be transferred to stationary wheel, leaving 65% waste. That's thing what comes out from my backbone, gotta stick with it until something really proves me wrong. :)
Found one nice article on bimmer forum what goes on mathematics with it, it even starts with same thing as my above example, but then on formulas it mixes percentages and plain numbers as I did above.. Lol. Formula on there sucks, ideas are right but used wrongly on formula. :)
Code:
In a standard differential, if one wheel loses traction, it will get all
the power and will spin, while the wheel with traction gets nothing. The
idea of a limited-slip differential is to prevent all power from being
applied to only one driving wheel when traction is lost. There are numerous
types of limited-slip, positraction, locker,
etc. units.

The percentage number denotes the percentage of torque applied to the
slower turning wheel from
the faster turning wheel. In a straight line, both drive wheels turn at the
same speed, so no limited slip action is occurring. In a turn, or when one
tire is spinning more than the other (such as on snow or ice), with a
limited slip differential, 25, 40, or 75 percent of the torque applied to
the faster wheel is applied to the slower wheel,
effectively 'limiting slip'. A higher lockup percentage will cause
increased rear tire wear on the inside tire during cornering -- the tire
itself will have to slip slightly to counteract the limited slip's desire
to have both tires turning at the same speed. It will also increase
oversteer in wet or slippery conditions, but it will also increase
understeer in tight corners under dry conditions. This is simply due to the
fact that with a limited slip, the drive wheels tend to want to turn at the
same speed, making the car tend to want to go in a straight line. When it
is slippery, however, both drive tires will tend to lose traction at the
same time, increasing oversteer. The
advantages are less inside wheelspin when accelerating out of a tight
corner. This also translates into more horsepower to the pavement and
faster autocross times -- provided that the suspension is tuned for the
limited slip. The ability to accelerate out of corners without excess wheel
spin can be a great advantage.


Om a more technical note:

The limited slip percentage (S) is also called the locking factor. It
describes the maximum applied torque
difference between rear wheels compared with total applied torque.
Passenger car LSDs are usually in the
25-40% locking factor range. Most BMW LSDs are 25%.

Limited Slip Locking Factor or Percentage S:
(note: drive torque is torque applied to road surface)

Drive Torque Difference Between Rear Wheels
S = ------------------------------------------- x 100%
Total Drive Torque of Both Rear Wheels

Think of a situation where the two rear wheels are on different surfaces
with different coefficients of friction:

H = Higher traction, more torque can be applied to road surface
L = Lower traction, less torque can be applied to road surface

H - L
S = ------- x 100 %
H + L

By rearranging the equation a little, you see that for a 25% LSD, the High
torque side can be as much as
62.5% of the total while the Low torque side can be as little as 37.5% of
the total.

25% LSD Example:


S + 1 0.25 + 1
H = ------- = -------- = 0.625
2 2

-S + 1 -0.25 + 1
L = ------- = -------- = 0.375
2 2

The H/L ratio, called the bias ratio, is easier for me to think about
because it quickly shows how much more
torque can be sent to the high side. With a 25% limited slip, it is
possible to have 1.67 times as much torque
applied to the high side. A 40% LSD works out to a 2.33 bias ratio.

25% LSD Example:

H S + 1 0.25 + 1
--- = ------- = -------- = 1.67 (Bias Ratio)
L -S + 1 -0.25 + 1

A locked differential has a 100% locking factor (infinite bias ratio)
because all torque can be applied to one
wheel (e.g. one wheel on ice or in the air). For a limited slip, the
initial preload, or break-away torque, allows
power application when one drive wheel is on ice or in the air. Open
differentials are another story (see
snow/ice write-up below).

In theory, an open differential has 0% locking factor (1.00 bias ratio)
because the torque to each wheel is
balanced (H = L). In actual practice, there is some bias because the
differential is not friction free.

Differentials reduce tire wear and help a car turn more easily by allowing
the rear wheels to travel at different
speeds while turning corners. The inside wheel must slow down (smaller
radius turn) while the outside wheel
speeds up an equal amount (larger radius turn). To balance the drive torque
at each wheel, more torque is
applied to the outside wheel, speeding it up, while less torque is applied
to the inside wheel, allowing it to
slow down.

Open differentials always work well turning. They also apply power very
evenly when both rear wheels have
adequate traction. However, the big downside, is their torque balancing
action when one wheel has much
less traction, such as in ice and snow.

The torque applied to the wheel with the most traction can only equal the
lesser traction wheel. Total applied
torque for both wheels is only twice the traction of the worst wheel.

Increasing Locking Precentage

How do they increase the locking percentage on a diff? Do they just pack
more shims in there to make the clutch plates tighter? Or do they re
engineer the ramp angles? I have also read that Metric Mechanic adds clutch
plates. In this case is the carrier machined to accept more plates?

The shim alters pre-load, and too much pre-load provokes understeer. It'd
be better to get the locking to
almost go away under braking & corner entry, and then come back for
power-on exits. The pre-load should be just enough for a smooth transition
between the action of the coast & power ramps, and to keep things
together when unloaded. But the shim is what people can do. The shim in
question is not the 'thrust washer'
that the shop manual refers to, but the 'spacer ring' which is shaped like
a Belleville spring washer as big as
the discs themselves. These are made of stiff spring steel around 2 mm
thick. These, as well as the 'dog- eared
plates' are selected to shim up the static locking.

The torque path has the ramps driving the differential pinion's shaft, and
the ramp angle leverages the clamping force applied. Less angle on
the ramp offers a mechanical advantage for applying the clutches =
more lock. I have not measured any, but it looks as though BMW has the same
angle for both coast & power
ramps. BMW did use shallower ramp angles on euro high % LS. (Anyone want to
sell an original 75% factory
unit?)

Due to the BMW's design, the ramp angles can't be modified. The ramps are
located on the 'pressure covers'
that are also used to retain the spider gears. The back side of the gears
fits into the rounded interior section
of the left & right pressure covers. This may be so the gears assist in
their spreading action.

Adding clutches increases surface area for clamping = more lock available.
You would have to machine the
housing to fit them, so it could weaken it.
 
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