RVV Motor Works - White Knight - 10/02/10

[Rotary Junkie]

Vince, have you ever tried playing around with the toe in the old musclecars? I'm willing to believe that fiddling with front toe could drastically improve initial turn in in corners. and just for realism, rear toe has to be left alone, even though that would help a lot too..💡

I actually tested the Shelby. It was good and fast, but bit too twitchy for my driving style in some points.

Who says that we can't convert to IRS?

 

[Leonidae]

you'd rape a classic with IRS?

 

[Rotary Junkie]

Yes.

 

[Vince247]

Why would that be a rape?

 

[Leonidae]

I would stick to original. True, IRS would be huge improvement to lolsprings solid lolaxle, but in the same time, the car would lose part of it's charm and challenge when the rear end would become more grippy and predictable. and we don't like boring cars, do we?

 

[Vince247]

Well, I guess my twitchy/challenging Shelby setup says it all.

I would like to express my humble and truthful longing to see a full review from you Leo.👍

(The same for any other GTP member)

Remember, take your time. I guess you're quite busy, but if you can find some spare time, don't be afraid to use it.

 

[Leonidae]

I shall do that when my timetable allows. 👍

 

[EA11R]

Rockit: I began testing your Supra and I noticed that you listed BBC settings, but not to buy the BBC. Are there other parts I must buy that you did not list? I tested it just buying the parts that you listed and I want to make sure I'm reviewing the right car before I actually review it. Also, the gear ratios are way off the scale for me. Is there a special transmission trick that I must to to get identical ratios?

I really don't want to give a review on the car that you didn't intend to be made, so please help clear this up for me.

 

[Rockit]

Removed

 

[EA11R]

Okay, so all parts are applied then? That's how I'm testing it now. I'd complain about it, but I changed the drivetrain a lot and just realized that the car's handling is dependant upon the drivetrain. But now it makes sense: I should up it from a Stage 3 to Stage 4! (I normally don't belive in publicising my fiddling with tuner cars, but you must admit, that much power with those tires is just terrifying.) Please explain or redo the gear ratios, and I'll give a full review. I look forward to fitting the proper transmission!

The idea of this car has massive potential for excellence, I just need you to explain the gear ratios.

EDIT: Wow, I mentioned transmission in almost half of the sentences. LOL.

 

[Dark Elite]

yes, but wouldn't that kill the in-turn grip?

This makes it sound suspiciously like you didn't try it - which makes this an unfinished setup.

DE

 

[Rotary Junkie]

Well, the idea was brought up after the fact. So the NEXT muscle car, if posted without results on trying different toe settings, would be unfinished.

 

[Vince247]

Hmm, I don't think it's unfinished. The suggestion Leonidae made is more fitting to his driving style, and off course made after I finished my setup.
I never said I didn't try it, this was meant as a question. All I know is that toe settings can/will improve turn-in but also can/will decrease grip mid turn.
I just wanted to hear if the mid turn grip would significantly decrease, if you compare it to the gain of an improved turn in. After I would get a response to that, I would check it out for myself.

- That's all.

So, DE, could I please ask you to do a review of one of my muscle cars (so you can try it yourself)?

 

[Dark Elite]

But did you try it?

The point I was making, rather idly, was that if you haven't tried out pretty much anything (ie, anything reasonable) on a setup, you don't know it's as good as it could possibly be - 300mph tuning has certainly taught me that much. A more thorough approach could work wonders, although not having sampled your work, I can only make comments based on your posts.

So, DE, could I please ask you to do a review of one of my muscle cars (so you can try it yourself)?

Afraid not, as I'm rather 'out' of Gran Turismo at the moment, and have never been a fan of muscle cars in particular - so, if I had the time to test one of your cars, I wouldn't be able to give a well-informed opinion on it relative to similar cars or setups - unless, of course, I tested it alongside a similar car from, say, the Mad Finntuners.

DE

 

[Vince247]

But did you try it?

The point I was making, rather idly, was that if you haven't tried out pretty much anything (ie, anything reasonable) on a setup, you don't know it's as good as it could possibly be - 300mph tuning has certainly taught me that much. A more thorough approach could work wonders, although not having sampled your work, I can only make comments based on your posts.

Afraid not, as I'm rather 'out' of Gran Turismo at the moment, and have never been a fan of muscle cars in particular - so, if I had the time to test one of your cars, I wouldn't be able to give a well-informed opinion on it relative to similar cars or setups - unless, of course, I tested it alongside a similar car from, say, the Mad Finntuners.

DE

Okay, I understand/understood your point. It's just that with my "timetable" and this method, I will take a couple of weeks to "finish" one setup.

Too bad, I would have enjoyed a review from such a respected GTP member.
Actually that's quite a good idea, RRV vs. MFT, a tuner battle.

 

[fordgt150]

RRV vs. MFT, a tuner battle.

That would be a really good idea, say in the long race series have a muscle car, rotary and street car competitons where drivers from the tuner teams and people like myself would race a car based on your tuning specifications...that would be interesting

 

[Leonidae]

This idea needs more planning and refinement than just a spur of moment. it will be a big task to manage the races and keep the agreed deadlines.

 

[Vince247]

It sure would, Leo you're right. Just, lets wait for the others what they think.

Now, after quite some test laps, I have to say you were right Leo. The toe(+) does improve the turn in.

Happy now, mr. Dark Elite?

 

[Rockit]

removed

 

[Dark Elite]

I would have enjoyed a review from such a respected GTP member.

Happy now, mr. Dark Elite?

If the car's been improved, so should you be.

On the test track it's eay to be thorough you want only two things, speed and stability.

Actually, I would say that high-speed tuning is a considerably more thorough thing to do than track tuning, because it is objectively measurable and can be honed to a totally perfect result - ie, the highest possible speed for the car - whereas track tuning is an adaptable art, and flaws can be compensated for in driving and other aspects of the setup - not so in speed tuning. Someone like Leonidae, who has a lot of experience in both high-speed and track-car tuning, can probably give a more informed opinion on this one.

to be truly thorough is to know what the car is doing, what you want it to be doing, and how to make it do that, then doing just that.

Correct. Now you have a target.

DE

 

[Vince247]

being thorough is great except that GT takes thorough to OCD inducing levels. On the test track it's eay to be thorough you want only two things, speed and stability. on a more typical course, the variables of what you want when and how all et much more complex, and torn between wanting the best out of one car and wanting to start a new better car..for example what used to hold me back was that i tuned on costa de amalfi, that track taught me how to drift, how to brake, how to feint the car through turns, how to brake whip the car, taught me all my tricks, but it did NOT teach me to tune because that course is terrible for such things. too many of the same turn with little variation, with huge differences in track altitude to mess up the handling of a car. A car tuned for costa will usually understeer horribly for me anywhere else.

Yeah, true. That's why I think there is no "all around" and "the best of the car" setup

to be truly thorough is to know what the car is doing, what you want it to be doing, and how to make it do that, then doing just that. What percentage of people on this board actually have all four of those?

Lol! Quote of the day.

On another note, a tuner battle with MFT would be terrific AFTER we've seen some reviews in here, it IS a massive undertaking to do it right but ought to be a great event to happen before GT5 comes and ruins our parade.

Agree, but I don't think GT5 will ruin our parade. We'll just move to the GT5 Tuning and settings board.💡

 

[Leonidae]

Actually, I would say that high-speed tuning is a considerably more thorough thing to do than track tuning, because it is objectively measurable and can be honed to a totally perfect result - ie, the highest possible speed for the car - whereas track tuning is an adaptable art, and flaws can be compensated for in driving and other aspects of the setup - not so in speed tuning. Someone like Leonidae, who has a lot of experience in both high-speed and track-car tuning, can probably give a more informed opinion on this one.
Correct. Now you have a target.

DE

Thanks for rolling that on my shoulders, buddy.

But anyway..

Let's use a Nissan 300ZX twinturbo '98 as an example, and say that it's the low mileage one, with fresh chassis, perky engine, practically in showroom condition, and start aiming for top speed.

So, you purchase all performance parts for it that you believe that it needs, and make couple initial runs´, just to notice that the car doesn't turn well, and runs out of gears.
So you return to the pits, adjust the car accordingly, and try again, getting bit better results. you're now going faster, but as a result, the understeer hasn't changed, so you have to tinker with the suspension. After doing this, oyu notice that the car has lost top speed instead of gaining it thanks to more grippy setup, and you start trying different driving lines. one days work will probably lead into the situation, that your pretty, 6.2 mile purple 300ZX Twinturbo has warped chassis, nearly 1000 miles on the clock and permanent power losses, and you've gained only about 40mph+ into your speed, which is STILL over 30 miles away from the magical barrier of 300mph.

Next thing is, that you copy your game files and buy the 6.2 mile 300ZX from your new savegame, apply the settings and keep going.. slowly yet certainly you'll approach 300mph, until you finally reach it, and that, if what is the most rewarding feeling in this game. It took almost a year from me with this bugger to get it done, since every car needs different kind of tuning for top speed runs. and even when you hone it for hours, it's likely that you fall 1.67mph short of your target.

What I did, was taking other cars to 300mph and beyond, including Supra RZ and Nismo S-Tune (<-- that's a record which is still within my tight, dead mans grasp), and even huge whale called 3000GT!

So that's the top speed path, more or less.

And now, to track tuning, or tuning for handling and speed, and preferably a nice compromise between these.

First off, you buy the car. You probably test drive it, find out it's good and bad sides and possibly helpful or harmful quirks. But unlike in top speed tuning, the target usually isn't that far. Because now you can use all those racing techniques to help the handling characteristics of the car to carry you through the corners, instead of relying just on tires and downforce.

You might have developed a certain formula that you use in your cars, apply it first and then move on from that, finetuning the brakes so they won't lock under braking from high speed, causing understeer or worst, losing traction in the rear ( unless this is a desired behaviour ).

You try different tyre compounds, spring and shock absorber ratios, different roll bar stiffness, even ballast weight. And suddenly you notice that in some corners, where you usually go through carefully around 110mph and on the edge of losing control, you're flying through at full chatter around 130-140mph without a hint of a disaster, which is a huge improvement! The car sucks itself into the apexes, and careful fondling of the throttle helps you to keep the driving line in check.

During this process, my cars usually spend day or two on the track, a week in case of the rear engined/AWD ones, and they hardly ever get more than from 80-200miles in their odometer. so they're still good for racing and all.

This is how I'd describe the differences between the top speed tuning and trackday tuning. Topspeed tuning is a long, frustrating process that might cause you to start smoking, using excessive amounts of coffee and general grumpyness, whereas track tuning rewards you quicker, letting you learn something new all the time about the particular car you're driving.

 

[Vince247]

and this is one hell of a good post. +rep for you buddy, you deserved it!

edit: Crap, need to spread some first...

Funny you haven't gotten that Quality posts badge yet, you probably deserved the +rep for every setup post you made.

 

[Greycap]

Too true about the rep for setup posts thing, but as things go, people usually rep posts that they find to be funny or agree with, not the ones that truly deserve the rep. I've received exactly zero points for all the MFT setups combined this far, there are two rep attempts but both with no points. I'm afraid Leonidae isn't doing much better.

 

[Vince247]

maybe a good suggestion for your/my main post: "If you really enjoyed one of our setups, I would like you to give the post the reputation it deserves".
Good idea?💡

I think Leo will get his badge he deserves, one day or another.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

I KNOW he will.

Great post, Leo, and +rep!

 

[Vince247]

I know you know he will.

But guys, back on topic:

The RRV Audi R8 is almost ready.

 

[Rockit]

removed

 

[DeltaTrain]

That would be a really good idea, say in the long race series have a muscle car, rotary and street car competitons where drivers from the tuner teams and people like myself would race a car based on your tuning specifications...that would be interesting

Though about that a few weeks ago, I'm just worried about people being too biased towards a tuning company. Aww, if only we had online for NGTC.

 

[Leonidae]

The z28 is good for maybe 200 mph, and has the slowest acceleration of all my top gun cars, yet somehow that compromise of a car becomes beastly in my friends hands because it suits his driving style, for gods sake it has BEATEN my competition coupe on more then one occasion.

And that's why I usually tune the gearbox to match the average straight of GVS instead of the ridiculously long one at De La Sarthe.

Oh i do suppose part of it is because he cuts a slightly different line then me and uses that to block clean passes consistantly(bastard), but the car has awesome mid turn grip that i can't explain...

Some cars are meant for certain kind of drivers. For example I can not understand how Greycap can be so ridiculously fast in S-Tune.. I mean, my VSII has more torque and 6th gear but still he keeps about a second ahead..

In any case it seems we are all in agreement but that RRV is still without business

Don't worry, this is somewhat fresh tuner team. You'll eventually get on the roll..👍