Safe Places to Pass

[eehminor]

I think all great advices given here should be applicable with considering racers are more or less at the same driving skill/level.

For sure, some moves can take place on differents places but always with a safety margin which will not ruin opponents or yourself race. Most of the time, when you have some differents opportunities, it's mainly because of a mistake from the guy in front of you. I even get sometimes great pleasure pushing someone to the fault rather than making the brakes to pass.

But all we can do in theses (poor) online rules with plenty of newbies, rammers, etc, is to gain safe lines to pass and sometimes simply avoid mess around the turns. Don't also forget that we're in a game and safety margin is quite narrow from real life where you will not take the same risks (and other racers too).

It's the way I race when I get a same level opponent : only pass on safe spots, slow down when I'm passed, avoid collisions, check mirrors to see what moves take place behind me. And I often have to slow down my lap behind someone just to wait the right place to pass/overtake (or wait for the fault, mine too often). Issue: fast peoples behind me don't have the same patience.
On Suzuka track, I noticed lately that my races are betters when I start from the bottom of the starting grid because of 2 or 3 firsts turns mess. That's some sort of patience too.

I can agree with this, I have been in races with you, and you certainly played fair, just like your post!

 

[Stevisiov]

Generally I work of the half a car length rule, as in if the nose of your car is over half of their car then you are entitled to perform the overtake on the inside.



Going by my quick picture, if the nose of the car behind gets past the red dashed line then they are entitled to perform an overtake on the inside.

However 130R is a little different because its a very fast corner and the fast line can only be taken by 1 car. I have made an overtake on the inside of 130R because I knew who I was racing was a competant driver and I was side by side going in, we both made it out the corner side by side still. Normally I won't even consider it unless I have acctually got the nose of my car ahead of theirs in which case its their obligation to let you through if you are inside.

So technically if someone is past the (imaginary) red dashed line and on the inside line then you have to give them space and as a result you cannot perform your standard corner. I however veiw it as a very selfish overtake unless they are infact slightly ahead going into the corner because without the use of your side windows like you would have in real life it makes it a very dangerous manouvre because you can't acctually see where you oppenent is. Like wise its your opponents obligation to stay inside throught the corner if they do go for an over take and not swing out wide and push you of the road.

 

[P3nT4gR4m]

So turn one isn't an overtaking place then... good to know.

Exit of turn 2, yeah sure I'm up for that, provided myself or the other driver makes a hash of it. But that's pretty hard to do with decent drivers these days as they all tend to cover their line pretty well.

What I don't like though is people who stuff it up the inside of turn 2 when you're coming off the brakes from turn 1 and cutting in towards the apex.

If a driver in a AWD car takes a tighter line through turn 1 and they're within a car length of you, does that give them the right to attempt a manouver up the inside of turn 2?

I'll overtake on T1 if the car in front misses the apex, I admit tho this is much rarer that the move I described. I tend to think of double apex turns as one corner - you, quite rightly make a distinction - my bad.

"If a driver in a AWD car takes a tighter line through turn 1 and they're within a car length of you, does that give them the right to attempt a manouver up the inside of turn 2?"

If I have a clear line then yes. However the caveat with any overtake is - it's the overtakers responsibility to abort if the opponent doesn't do what you were expecting. eg pulling more exit speed than you'd anticipated and coming in at a good lick from the wider racing line.

Racing for me is opportunistic - I wait for the slightest mistake and pounce. I will also feint overtakes in an attempt to psyche out the guy in front. This is borderline dirty with regards GT5P because there are so many idiot punters around but a perfectly legitimate racing tactic. So I use it - if it freaks the opponent out and they crash then it's all good and I follow through. However - once again - if it doesn't I abort and build up the distance to worry them some more at the next corner.

My goal is to pressurise you into making a mistake - that's the way I race.

 

[PonySpanker]

PlusP - Unfortunately, in your particular example, I think you both are at fault. Your opponent is wrong for trying to make an inside pass on a corner where it is virtually impossible to do so. Even though you had the racing line, he had his nose in there and you came down on him by trying to hit the apex.

In this situation, I usually just brake a little early and let him run through the corner and into the run-off area to the right. In my experience with this corner, they almost never make the corner from the inside and even if they do, you can get the position back at Casio.

 

[PonySpanker]

Racing for me is opportunistic - I wait for the slightest mistake and pounce. I will also feint overtakes in an attempt to psyche out the guy in front. This is borderline dirty with regards GT5P because there are so many idiot punters around but a perfectly legitimate racing tactic. So I use it - if it freaks the opponent out and they crash then it's all good and I follow through. However - once again - if it doesn't I abort and build up the distance to worry them some more at the next corner.

My goal is to pressurise you into making a mistake - that's the way I race.

This is my strategy. You usually lose a couple at turn 1 on the 1st lap. Somone almost always looses it on Dunlop. After that, I just ride close and wait for them to make a mistake. You can tell who's using a wheel and who's on a controller by how erratic their line is. Those on the controller are usually more likely to make a mistake on their own so you don't have to push as hard. Just sit back and wait for them to run a little wide then make your move. I've learned that patience will earn you more spots than trying to bully your way to the front.

 

[Stotty]

Regarding Suzuka, and assuming your opponent hasn't made an error...

Overtaking in to T1 is fine as long as you're on the right, are fully alongside, and you give your opponent room on the exit of T1/start T2.

T2 on the other hand is a real frustration... T1/T2 are really one long double apex corner, where the entry to T2 (at least for MR cars like the NSX) is wide and requires a late turn into straighten out the exit... too many numptys don't understand the line on this corner and think you're running wide, when you're actually on the proper racing line.

Spoon is just like T1/T2 - one long double apex corner - fine to overtake on entry if you give your opponent room mid corner, but the exit is NOT an overtaking spot FFS!! If you're trying to stuff it down the inside going in to the 2nd apex you really don't really understand the first thing about racing as a narrow/tight entry completly screws up your exit speed down the back straight.

Don't know what the 2 right handers are called after the esses... but they are NOT overtaking spots.

130R is NOT an overtaking spot... the chicane afterwards is.

I don't care if you start 16th on the grid... not having enough safe places to pass to win is no excuse.... in anycase, how many times do you start back of the grid and end up top 6 by the end of the 1st lap whilst others punt each other or themselves off.

 

[Luxy]

Most people assume that passing at the Hairpin or Casino means taking the inside line and out-braking their opponent. Usually, it's much easier to make a clean, successful pass by being patient, staying behind and taking the proper racing line. While the other guy middle-of-the-roads it trying to protect the inside line, you concentrate on making a better exit. You'll get him almost every time, and there's no chance of getting punted (unintentionally, anyway)

Edit: Same with the exit of Spoon. It's a much better opportunity than the entry of Spoon.

 

[Ardius]

Most people assume that passing at the Hairpin or Casino means taking the inside line and out-braking their opponent. Usually, it's much easier to make a clean, successful pass by being patient, staying behind and taking the proper racing line. While the other guy middle-of-the-roads it trying to protect the inside line, you concentrate on making a better exit. You'll get him almost every time, and there's no chance of getting punted (unintentionally, anyway)

Edit: Same with the exit of Spoon. It's a much better opportunity than the entry of Spoon.

Hmm, I disagree about the hairpin, thats the nature of hairpins on any track, in fact, thats one of my favourite places to make a pass. That, and the second corner of Spoon (people always screw up their line there, me included).

Casio is a bit hit and miss, if are carrying more speed after the 130R, then you usually already have to take the inside and overtake anyway. Casio is the one corner I judge by how well I know the driver in front, if I know they're someone who wouldn't panic at someone overtaking them there or have good control over their car, then I might try a pass. Usually I try to avoid trying though because its too narrow.

 

[Hugo Boss]

In essence every corner is a possible place to make a pass. However, at some corners it's only possible when the driver in front of you went slightly off line, like in the esses at Suzuka.
At Degner and 130R for instance you can always make the pass if you're next to your opponent, but not when you're behind him before the braking zone. You can give that a try when your car has better brakes or a much higher cornering speed, but don't be surprised if your opponent just closes the door. Only highly experienced racers can judge this situation correctly.

Therefore I'm not really happy with the opening post of this thread. It could convince others you only have a few corners to pass on each track. The marked corners are indeed the easier ones to pass, but not the only. The bolded part in the post of Beefaben is the key here 👍

My 2c.. Dont expect to be able to win a close race simply by following the race line. The race line is the quickest line round the track, but this will leave you open to passing oportunities from other cars.. (ignoring Amatuer v Amatuer racing) which means if your racing hard with another person with some skill, you are going to get taken, most likely by a late brake block pass manouver off the racing line.
If your happy to drive around the track on the race line, dont get upset if a car does stuff it up the inside of you into Degner, for example, forcing you on to the brakes.. but thats racing.
Defending your line into a corner is a skill within itself.. you wont be setting quicker lap times but you are removing an overtaking oportunity from the person behind you.

...again all this comes down to the level of person your racing against. A noob who has left the door open probably wont like you poking your nose in under brakes and will probably assume that as he is on the racing line he has the right of way, and you can expect to get hit. Someone with some racecraft will accept they just got taken and will look to return the favour.

 

[Dbo129]

Basicly just use common sence, use your noddle. Most of us know whats right and whats wrong. Realize you can't win every race. Have fun and try learning from other people. Show respect. All of us have something to offer one-another. I'm not saying not to be competitive...Just use yor head and have fun.

 

[BB-ANDY-]

Good work on doing those maps, but as the guy said above me, use your common sense. If your a good driver you will know where to pass.

 

[Vaxen]

So technically if someone is past the (imaginary) red dashed line [on the 130R] and on the inside line then you have to give them space and as a result you cannot perform your standard corner.

This is essentially a high speed barge maneuver, and so is always a bad move. A driver on the inside will miss the apex if trying to carry enough speed to conclude the pass and so will generally shoot way wide, unless they are assisted by the outside driver's door.

That said, when I'm outside in this situation, I'll usually concede the corner and attempt a crossover coming out of the 130R. If they are pushing to complete the pass, or depending on a bounce off of my car, they'll almost always shoot wide, making the countermove very effective.

 

[paolopepper]

i dont see the point in this if your a good enough driver you can pass almost everywhere i try anywhere theres a big enough gap are jsut giving the guy a little nudge to fit through

 

[750F-RM]

I'm very good at passing in the esses, wish i could say the same for some others. the amount of times i've been punted there

 

[AERO_HDT]

i dont see the point in this if your a good enough driver you can pass almost everywhere i try anywhere theres a big enough gap are jsut giving the guy a little nudge to fit through

Oh really?

If you're a good enough driver you wouldn't have to 'nudge' anyone! What do you classify as a nudge paolo? When people are on the limits of their grip and you come through and 'nudge' them on Suzuka it's often enough to put them in the gravel.

That's not 'I'm a good enough driver I can do that' behaviour. What you see as a gap, others see as no gap. What you classify a 'nudge' others see as ramming.

 

[Stevisiov]

This is essentially a high speed barge maneuver, and so is always a bad move. A driver on the inside will miss the apex if trying to carry enough speed to conclude the pass and so will generally shoot way wide, unless they are assisted by the outside driver's door.

That said, when I'm outside in this situation, I'll usually concede the corner and attempt a crossover coming out of the 130R. If they are pushing to complete the pass, or depending on a bounce off of my car, they'll almost always shoot wide, making the countermove very effective.

Which is why in the next sentence I said this:

I however veiw it as a very selfish overtake unless they are infact slightly ahead going into the corner because without the use of your side windows like you would have in real life it makes it a very dangerous manouvre because you can't acctually see where you oppenent is. Like wise its your opponents obligation to stay inside throught the corner if they do go for an over take and not swing out wide and push you of the road.

 

[zodicus]

I stick to the passing zones ( for the most part) listed on those maps almost never try a pass in the esses. Ive had a lot of people try and mmake a pass when I could see them in my rear view, witch means they wernt even close to being along side me yet they divebomb in to the corner like Im not there........ I wish everyone would read this thread and at least TRY to follow it. just be patiant people make mistakes you dont have to be in 1st before the start of lap 2. there have been people I know I could have beat if I just braged through but I wouldnt want them to shove me out of the way so I wait. Nothing wrong with a good close race and finishing second or third ect theres good monye in last place for the love of pete, play for the racing not credits geez.

 

[peter_vod69]

This thread is a tad ridiculous. Degner is a great place to pass, its usually easy to pick somebody off under brakes turning into Degner. Coca Cola at Fuji is another handy spot too. If you aren't good enough to overtake safely except for a few corners then you need to consider your driving technique more closely. I'm sure real racing drivers wait until its "safe" too...

 

[P3nT4gR4m]

I'm sure real racing drivers wait until its "safe" too...

Coultard doesn't - he's the patron saint of unsafe overtakes

 

[PlusP357]

PlusP - Unfortunately, in your particular example, I think you both are at fault. Your opponent is wrong for trying to make an inside pass on a corner where it is virtually impossible to do so. Even though you had the racing line, he had his nose in there and you came down on him by trying to hit the apex.

In this situation, I usually just brake a little early and let him run through the corner and into the run-off area to the right. In my experience with this corner, they almost never make the corner from the inside and even if they do, you can get the position back at Casio.

I totally disagree with you here.

Regarding Corner Rights, I follow the racing rules in the Live For Speed online manual. Corner Rights rules can be found in the Clean Racer's Club section. Although posted in LFS's manual, these basic rules are accepted by just about every sim racing club/organization and in real life racing as well.

This is really some common sense stuff here:

CR-1: You must establish substantial overlap with the car ahead before they reach the corner’s turn-in point to have the right to drive up their inside, or to expect them to leave inside room for you. Substantial overlap means at least that the front of your car is up to say the driver’s position in the ahead car - and that’s at the very least. You probably should have more overlap in some circumstances. The ahead driver has the right to be fully committed to the racing line of their choice without any interference if there was no substantial overlap before he turned in.

CR-2: If sufficient overlap is established before the turn-in point, then the behind driver has the right to sufficient side room. The ahead driver must then leave sufficient side room for the behind driver.

CR-2A: The car on the outside has the right to outside room all the way through the corner – right up to the exit point. They should not be squeezed against the outside towards the exit point.

CR-2B: The car on the inside has the right to inside room all the way through the corner - right up to the exit point. They should not be squeezed against the inside towards the apex area. The ahead driver can still battle for the position of course but must do so while maintaining side room for the behind driver. The practice of going up the inside of an ahead car after they have already turned in, and where there was no established substantial overlap before the turn-in point, is sometimes referred to as barge passing, ( I.e. you barge your way past ). Understand that barge passing is a high risk manoeuvre for both you and others. You have no rights what-so-ever as a barge passer. Should you cause an accident from a barge passing manoeuvre you’ll be in a defenceless position should you be protested?

Enough said.
In regards to the pass attempt example at 130R I presented on page 2 of this thread:
If a car following me all the way down the straight attempts a last-second pass on the inside even though he has not obtained substantial overlap...I could not even see him at the turn-in point...and causes me to wreck into him / he wrecks into me, then HE is at fault...not both of us.

This is sort of a heated subject for me because I have been knocked out so many times at 130R by drivers attempting a last-second inside pass here because they could not overtake me on the straight.

 

[P3nT4gR4m]

There's no way round it - 130R is a murderous place to overtake. Even in a legitimate overtake as you described it's common that the other driver will either not see you or try to take the apex anyway, this usually results in him spinning out and me getting a penalty. I'm going to stick to slipstreaming the guy in and hoping he misses the apex from now on - overtake might be legal but it's too damned risky and I'm sure a lot of that is down to sim visibility restrictions.

 

[zodicus]

This thread is a tad ridiculous. Degner is a great place to pass, its usually easy to pick somebody off under brakes turning into Degner. Coca Cola at Fuji is another handy spot too. If you aren't good enough to overtake safely except for a few corners then you need to consider your driving technique more closely. I'm sure real racing drivers wait until its "safe" too...

Denger and coca cola are more like good places to punt some off not pass. They require very little braking and a early turn in to take the corner at a decent speed. There just like 130R you basically have to get in front of the other driver before the braking zone so you can take the proper line.

 

[peter_vod69]

Denger and coca cola are more like good places to punt some off not pass. They require very little braking and a early turn in to take the corner at a decent speed. There just like 130R you basically have to get in front of the other driver before the braking zone so you can take the proper line.

Mostly they present opportunities because they ARE hard hits on the brakes, and you can rely on people braking a bit late and missing the apex, which is where you slip through on the inside.

 

[lbloom]

Thanks for the effort.

Actually you can pass almost anyhwere if the guy in front makes a mistake, like entering a corner carrying too much speed so that if he makes it, he'll be very slow coming out, and there is your chance.

I can't agree about the final chicane at Suzuka. I cannot count the times I've been t boned, rear ended, or otherwise pushed off the course by some knuckle head carrying too much speed into the first part of the chicane and using me for a braking/turning aid. You can, though, follow someone through that chicane, and if they are carrying too much speed, at some point they will either grey out, run off the course, or slow down so much to get their car under control, that it is an easy pass at the beginning of the straight.

 

[AERO_HDT]

I've had plenty of decent racing through Casio, but I've had plenty of bad experiences too. The bad experiences usually involve barge manouvres by some idiot who comes from three thousand miles behind me.

If I feel that a racer behind me is going to overtake, I always take the outside line through Casio and stay well away from the inside apex to give them plenty of racing room. Having said that though, they tend not to show me the same courtesy on the 2nd left hander of the chicane (where I now hold the inside line of that corner) and will cut viciously across my nose, causing me to brake and lose all semblance of rhythm.

Casio is a legitimate overtaking zone, perhaps one of the best on Suzuka, but don't forget it is a left/right chicane and so any courtesy carried into the corner must be carried through onto the exit to the main straight...

 

[zodicus]

Mostly they present opportunities because they ARE hard hits on the brakes, and you can rely on people braking a bit late and missing the apex, which is where you slip through on the inside.

Right witch would be them making a mistake and you passing them, thats diffrent then trying to pass them going in to the corner( witch I think is a bad idea, IMHO of corse).

 

[BonzoHarry]

I love to freak people out at suzuka. I'll purposely not pass them so I can stay behind them, then at a turn like the hairpin or turn 1 I'll dive inside real quick (with no actual intention to pass) and watch them swerve to hit/block me. All the while I'll keep looking inside like I'm going to pass, trying to keep them looking back and nervous.

Passing people if they're driving cleanly is too hard a lot of the time, so I just try and keep the pressure on and trying to fake them out, and just wait for them to screw up.

 

[Dragonistic]

There's no way round it - 130R is a murderous place to overtake. Even in a legitimate overtake as you described it's common that the other driver will either not see you or try to take the apex anyway, this usually results in him spinning out and me getting a penalty. I'm going to stick to slipstreaming the guy in and hoping he misses the apex from now on - overtake might be legal but it's too damned risky and I'm sure a lot of that is down to sim visibility restrictions.

130R is one of my favourite spots to overtake! I always have high downforce and low weight, i regurlarly take it at 140+ in my S2000, so getting a high speed then most and going off the racing line is generally not a problem, either by going under them just after the Apex or getting a run into the chicane, either way works.

 

[Zathra5_]

You know what I would find really useful? A tutorial on passing illustrated with video of examples of good passes and bad passes and inbetween passes.

On a similar note, we really need to be able to save online replays. I would love to be able to go back and look at the race and revisit passes that I made (or others) and to determine if they were good or not.

 

[Threshold]

Good post Earth.

One thing to remember is that in order to make a good pass you have to get the exist of the previous slow corner really good. You'll notice that pretty much all the corners highlighted by Earth are slow corners, and they are preceded by flat out sections, which are preceded by med to slow corners. So it's (1) slow corner, followed by (2) flat out section, followed by (3) slow corner. The pass starts out of the first slow corner. You need to be on the throttle early out of this corner. To do this you must take the first initial part of the corner a bit slower and a bit wide, so that you can be on the throttle early and hit that apex late.

When I do this right, I often times don't even have to wait make the pass on the 2nd corner, I make the pass on the flat out section.