Same-PP Car Comparisons

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smrtb0mb

smrtb0mb

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smrtb0mb
Recently I've been running Suzuka in practice mode to learn the track, and decided to try a bunch of different cars, all tuned to 500pp on sport soft tires. It was interesting to watch the results emerge. Here are the time differences between the cars that I've tried so far:

Suzuka 500pp S/S

0.00 NSX Type R '02
0.21 M3 CSL '03
0.59 M3 GTR '03
0.83 Amuse S2000 R1 '04
0.86 M3 Coupe '07
1.03 RX-8 Type S '07 (aero)
1.09 Elise 111R '04 (aero)
1.12 Integra Type R DC5 '04 (Praiano63's tune)
1.19 Evora '09
1.48 Nissan Z Z34 '08
1.66 Camaro SS '10
1.75 Impreza '04
1.93 RUF RGT
1.93 Z06 C5 '00
2.50 Countach '88
2.65 Challenger SRT8 '08
2.83 Commodore SS '04
2.84 Skyline GT-R R34 '02
3.74 Tamora '02
4.25 SVT F150 Lightning '03
4.26 G35 Coupe '06 (aero)
4.28 Silvia Spec-R S15 '02 (aero)

I'm not the fastest or most consistent driver, that's for sure but I think I gave each car a pretty fair shake. I'm also not much of a tuner, so typically I'll just add all the "pp-free" upgrades, drop the suspension about 5mm, add a bit of camber (esp on FF and 4WD cars) and set the transmission top speed to around 175mph. I only tuned cars up, not down (at least not below stock.) I prefer engine upgrades over bolt-ons when adding horsepower.

For this track I found that weight reduction and aero upgrades would take away too much power, so cars usually performed better without. At most I'll do stage 1 weight reduction for fine tuning or if the HP is maxed out before it hits 500pp... or if it's a heavy pig of a car that doesn't want to slow down. :dopey:

Anyway, what do you think? Agree or disagree with these rankings? Any other car testing suggestions welcome.

If anyone else wants to compare same-pp cars and share their results go ahead and post them here!
 
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These test are more than just FF though..

good job smrtb0mb, although what was the time posted by the NSX Type R '02?, So we can compare other cars to it.
 
Thanks for the comments guys. I'll check out some of those tunes Desperado :)

Corpsey, I don't think my times would be very fast, and most likely different from what you would get. You should run the NSX to get a personal baseline then use that to compare other cars to. That's assuming the NSX is the fastest for you... maybe you'll beat it with something else. I guess I'm trying to keep it about how cars perform for people rather than comparing driving skill.
 
Nurburgring 500PP on Sports Soft tires
Wheel, MT, no aids, ABS-1

500pptimes.jpg


I achieve pretty consistent lap times.
I think the longer track with all the variations gives a pretty good basis for comparing different cars at the same PP.
 
Try the nissan gtr 07 and the gtr vspec 09. Also I would pick weight reduction and areo over power on suzuka. The power gives the edge for acceleration on the straights and maybe a little higher top end on the straight. The weight reduction and aero gives more speed in the corners. On a course like suzuka higher cornering speeds may give a better overall time.
 
Thanks for the Nurburgring times jajo! Nice, and an interesting list of cars. Did you ever try the M3 CSL or GTR?

pjs, I did try some of cars with aero - the Nissan Z for example, was way down the list until I tried without aero and added all the weight back on, then it became competitive. Suzuka's a pretty fast track so I think power wins here, provided the car can handle the corners at faster speeds. Also, RWD seemed to have a big advantage over AWD. But don't just take my word for it, try it yourself ;)
 
Here's another set of times I was working on...

Cote D'Azur 550pp R/S

0.00 Gallardo LP '08
0.18 NSX Type R '02 (all upgrades)
0.21 LFA '10
0.43 R8 5.2 FSI quattro '09
0.78 GT-R SpecV '09
1.30 Viper SRT10 Coupe '06
1.74 Z06 C6 '06
1.81 Scuderia '07
1.90 Challenger SRT8 '08 (aero)
1.92 Camaro SS '10 (aero)
2.02 8C Competizione '08 (aero)
2.25 Pontiac GTO Coupe '04 (wing)
2.83 Elise 111R '04 (all upgrades)

This time around, it seems the AWD cars have the advantage... I'm guessing because of all the quick changes in speed and the acceleration needed when exiting the tight hairpins. (Excepting the LFA and NSX which seem to be "special cases" in the PP system, so I was glad to see the Gallardo come out on top here!)
 
I'm glad to see someone did this.

This underlines the exact problem I noticed when the PP system came out. Unlike the PI system of Forza, which takes into account every part installed on the car (and even then, it's not perfect), the PP system only takes into account the weight and power of a vehicle.

In true GT form, they COMPLETELY overlooked an obvious detail. Clutch upgrades allow you to shift faster, therefore reducing the time you are not accelerating, therefore decreasing lap times. Why do they not increase the PP of the car? The same can be said for flywheels and driveshafts.

All of the suspension upgrades dramatically increase a cars potential for lap reduction, ESPECIALLY the fully customizable suspension, yet there's no PP increase. It is the first thing people think of when they look to tune a car, and is instrumental in getting those times down, but yet they retain the rating of an inferior (in comparison) handling stock vehicle. The same can be said for LSDs and transmissions.

Finally are the tires. The tires are the MOST important aspect of a car, so why does changing the compound of the tire not increase PP? I realize you can always agree to a tire compound when multiplayer, but what if you don't want to. Why can't I tune my car to a lesser weight with a harder compound in order to compete with a higher wait car on a softer compound?

It's unfortunate that they overlooked these details, but it's better than nothing, I guess.
 
I agree somewhat ford... but I am installing all the "free" upgrades into all cars so it should be a level playing field in that regard. And in general people compete on the same tires, so I don't think it's very useful to factor them into PP.

But different drivers might get much different results from mine, I don't know... so hopefully more people will contribute :)

The other big unknown for me is how much expert tuning would change these results.
 
smrtb0mb
I agree somewhat ford... but I am installing all the "free" upgrades into all cars so it should be a level playing field in that regard. And in general people compete on the same tires, so I don't think it's very useful to factor them into PP.

But different drivers might get much different results from mine, I don't know... so hopefully more people will contribute :)

The other big unknown for me is how much expert tuning would change these results.
Click to expand...

I was in no way insinuating you were doing anything incorrect. Like I said, I'm glad someone is doing this. I was just expressing my disdain for the way PD set up the PP system.

Keep up the good work.
 
The order looks pretty decent. Some cars are more challenging to drive/tune than others and I see them toward the bottom. You might be able to shave time off their lap times, but they'd still fall behind compared to the fast cars on the list.

Selecting engine mods is very important. Turbos, ECUs, and Intake/Exhaust manifolds offer a high hp to pp ratio. Torque can be important too, but it all depends on the car and track you are tuning for. In general, you won't be able to pass without hp so I almost always tune to maximize hp for a draft pass.
 
Autumn Ring 450pp S/H

0.00 Integra Type R DC5 '04 (Praiano's tune)
0.38 Impreza Sedan VI '99
0.47 Golf IV R32 '03 (wing 11)
0.51 Skyline GT-R R32 '94
0.66 Elise Type 72 '01 (wing)
0.68 TTS Coupe '09
0.70 Integra Type R DC5 '04 (front aero)
0.88 Evo IV GSR '96
0.91 Elise 111R '04
1.03 Garaiya '02
1.04 S2000 '06
1.12 Integra Type R DC5 '03
1.33 RX-8 Type S '07
1.36 Focus ST '06 (front aero)
1.37 Celica GT-4 ST205 '98
1.63 330i '05
2.03 Civic Type R '08 (front aero)
2.05 NSX 95 (wing)
2.41 TF160 '03
2.48 Corvette Convertible C3 '69
2.93 Silvia K's S13 '90 (aero 10)
3.45 C30 R-Design '09 (aero)
3.71 Soarer 2.5GT-T '97

Wow, so I tried a lot of cars this time around, and there were a lot of surprises along the way!

I started off with the RX-8, and for a while couldn’t beat it with anything, until I tried the 4WD cars, starting with the Audi. Then I saw a used WRX in the UCD which just happened to be 450pp on the nose, so I tried that out and immediately smashed all my previous records.

Strangely could not get the NSX to work for me at all here, with or without a wing. This could very well just be driver error.

I was getting desperate to find something to beat the Subaru. So I took a look at the list of FF tuners that Desperado suggested and picked Paiano’s Integra tune, pretty much at random, lol. And WOW, the Integra, which had already placed pretty well for an FF, went straight to the top! To compare, I undid the tune, but left the front aero on. The car is very competitive like this, but never could match the time I set with that tune again, or with any other car.

In general I found the FFs pretty competitive and consistent here. Front aero seems to work best.

I tried aero on a couple of AWDs as well - front only and the full kit, but didn’t find it making much difference in the end. The handling improved but the laptimes stayed pretty much the same.

Wished that the TF160 had placed better, that’s a great car to drive and it looks sweet. Unfortunately, wing or no wing it just wasn’t competitive. The Garaiya’s a great drive as well as competitive, it might deserve better time than I got out of it. The Golf’s my personal favourite of the bunch, I was glad to see it place so high. :)
 
Your list is losing credibility when you start mixing tuned cars with straight-from-the-UCD cars.

I know on S/S tires at 450pp the S2000 is one of the quickest cars out there. It can be a challenge to put the power down on S/H tires but after practice (and proper tuning) I would expect to see it closer to the top, and certainly higher than most of the FF cars. The RX8 should also have no trouble keeping up. In fact, it looks to me that you seem to have trouble with the FR/MR cars in general.

I'm just saying that after 4 months of nightly 450pp racing on SS tires, FF and AWD cars are almost always slower than FR/MR cars. We've run everything under the sun and you will rarely see a FF car on the podium after 5 laps with tire wear on.
 
Well I'm not pretending that my list has a whole lot of credibility beyond what works for me :) Nor am I pretending that this is an authoritative review of all these cars. Also don't have a problem admitting that the easier to drive 4WD and FFs are skewing higher for me on sport hard tires (at least on this track.)

The only car with any real tuning was the Integra, which I made a note of and thought it was interesting enough to share the results.

Anyway, I'm just going through some tracks I didn't know so well in practice mode. Along the way I collect a lot of data about what's working for me and what's not, I just thought I'd share it here and maybe get some feedback. I think it's more interesting than threads about the rarest paint chip or whatever but maybe not :)

Anyway thanks for the tips on maximizing horsepower, that's a subtlety about tuning I hadn't realized.
 
Definitely is interesting...but i think you could easily spend more seat time in some of those cars to get them very quick.

For maxing hp, install and remove each part one at a time and record the pp, hp, and tq values. Create a spreadsheet to see which one gives you the most hp per pp. I did this on the lanica delta (there is a thread on it somewhere here) and i blew away the competition on a same-make night. I seriously looked like a cheater so after winning a few races I started at the back to work my way to the front.

The only thing I didn't test was engine tuning stages and weight reduction. Weight is a bit fuzzy. I guess you'd have to look at the power/weight ratio but that value doesn't mean very much in the game. I didn't test engine tuning because it wasn't something I could remove. I need to go back and do the test again...but I think the conclusions will be relatively the same. Go with the high-rpm turbo and ecu as your first mods and after that just piece together something that will get you to the right pp.

Another thing tuners are doing now is getting cars closer to 50/50 weight distribution by adding ballast. Perform weight reduction, then add up to 200kg to the rear of most cars and you'll offset the weight of the engine and create a car that turns beautifully.

however, any changes to weight requires careful tuning of the suspension.
 
Thanks for the additional suggestions. Although you have highlighted one problem - it takes a long time to get into real detail and compare various tunes! I can either spend a lot of time on each car with lots of different tunes, or I can try a lot of cars on a lot of tracks with minimal tuning, and then try out a few custom tunes here and there for comparison. The latter is more fun for me and helps my primary (selfish) objective of practising the tracks I don't know so well. :dopey:
 
yeah, i'd suggest practicing with a few tunes you know are quick. find your fastest time and save the ghost replay. Then pick a car you want to be fast, and start tuning it until you can get close to the ghost time.

it also helps to search through the WRS threads to find the track you are looking for. People upload their replays which you can import into the game. Stick to the "arcade" events so you don't have to worry about tuning at the same time as driving.
 
ford_racer
I'm glad to see someone did this.

This underlines the exact problem I noticed when the PP system came out. Unlike the PI system of Forza, which takes into account every part installed on the car (and even then, it's not perfect), the PP system only takes into account the weight and power of a vehicle.
Click to expand...

Actually, the PP system also takes into account Downforce settings. This is one of the loopholes that online racers use to get more power on certain tracks for a specific PP level.

They put Downforce to minimum and lower their car's PP, so they can use the power limiter to increase engine horsepower back up to the PP limit.

Just FYI, of course, if you did not know. ;)

PS to the OP: Neat tests. Interesting that you chose Praiano's Tune randomly. I have found that his tunes usually work best for my specific driving style and they are the first tunes that I try when looking for a new car tune. :cool:
 
chuyler1
The only thing I didn't test was engine tuning stages and weight reduction. Weight is a bit fuzzy. I guess you'd have to look at the power/weight ratio but that value doesn't mean very much in the game. I didn't test engine tuning because it wasn't something I could remove. I need to go back and do the test again...but I think the conclusions will be relatively the same. Go with the high-rpm turbo and ecu as your first mods and after that just piece together something that will get you to the right pp.
Click to expand...

I haven't done extensive tests but I've been collecting my data from 500pp cars on Trial Mountain. I have about 17 cars so far and I've taken several and did the weight reduction to see what impact it'd have on this track (less hp, less weight). The result was a better hp/weight ratio and track times being quicker.

For example, my M3 CSL '03 was around 380 hp/ 1385 kg and with racing softs, I managed 1:26.660 with my own tune. With the weight reduction @ 500pp, hp is 361, weight is 1274 kg and the time was reduced to 1:25.885.
 
If your interested we are starting another shootout in the tuner forum. This time it is 525 PP European cars on Laguna Seca.
Here is the link to it;
RVR's 1st Annual 525PP European Car Shootout!!!
It's just getting started so anyone interested in participating as either a tuner or test driver is welcome.
 
Weight reduction probably helps with some tracks more than others. Try it on a track like grand valley east. You may not have the same luck.

Lap times aren't everything though. Sure you want a good position on the starting grid, but if you can't draft pass, you'll never get out in front. I like my cars to have passing power, even if it means sacrificing some speed in the corners.

Worst thing ever is to pull a 10-20 second lead on someone at Nurburgring only to have them fly by you on the straight at the end.
 
chuyler’s comments got me wondering about what I was doing wrong with the FR cars, so I went back and this time tried adding aero parts to cars I should have tried it on the first time around. I run the RX-8 and boom, straight to the top, haha! Big improvement with the S2000 as well but it’s a bit harder to drive. However, I put together a BMW Z4 with aero kit... and not such good results.

Also tried the Spoon S2000 and it scored very well. Fastest car without aero parts in fact.

Updated list:

Autumn Ring 450pp S/H

0.00 RX-8 Type S '07 (aero)
0.25 Integra Type R DC5 '04 (Praiano's tune)
0.35 S2000 '06 (aero)
0.48 Spoon S2000 '00
0.63 Impreza Sedan VI '99
0.71 Golf IV R32 '03 (wing 11)
0.76 Skyline GT-R R32 '94
0.91 Elise Type 72 '01 (wing)
0.93 TTS Coupe '09
0.95 Integra Type R DC5 '04 (front aero)
1.13 Evo IV GSR '96
1.16 Elise 111R '04
1.27 Garaiya '02
1.28 S2000 '06
1.37 Integra Type R DC5 '03
1.58 RX-8 Type S '07
1.61 Focus ST '06 (front aero)
1.62 Celica GT-4 ST205 '98
1.88 330i '05
1.94 BMW Z4 '03 (aero)
2.27 Civic Type R '08 (front aero)
2.30 NSX 95 (wing)
2.66 TF160 '03
2.72 Corvette Convertible C3 '69
3.18 Silvia K's S13 '90 (aero 10)
3.70 C30 R-Design '09 (aero)
3.95 Soarer 2.5GT-T '97
 
Tried 2 more cars on Suzuka @ 500pp:

+0.83 Amuse S2000 R1 '04
+1.12 Integra Type R DC5 '04 (Praiano63 tune)

The Amuse is great to drive, it handles the curves like a champ, I just think there are too many straightaways on this track for a lower-powered car. Still I think many of the top 10 could be contenders for fastest depending on your driving style; I may not be driving the R1 or the Elise aggressively enough.

Updated the original list.
 
Suzuka is a tough track to run consistent laps on. It will definitely show you which cars are fast out of the box, but seconds could be gained on that track with proper transmission tuning and compromises between power, weight, and downforce.

I generally use a short track like GVE-R where it is easy to duplicate lap times within a 2 10th spread over and over again. It's got a long enough straight to test speed, It's got a high speed turn 1 to test grip and control. it's got a hill to test torque. it's got a tight hairpin to test low speed grip. then it's got a great final turn to test balance.

In practice mode, I race against the ghost of my fastest lap time. I'll give a car multiple laps to make sure i am hitting the correct apex speeds. When you've got your ghost, you know when you botch a turn vs just having slow speeds.
 
Agreed that Suzuka is tricky to be consistent on. It's a long track too so lots of time for mistakes to creep in :) That said I find the CSL very consistent there after a practice run or two. Other cars may have more potential it just takes forever to get a clean lap. If I can't get something decent after 15 laps or so I might just move on since I probably wouldn't do very well in a race with it.

I always use a ghost (I come from the world of Motorstorm where time attack was a highly competitive component of the game :D) If I can't get a good time with a car I'll load up a faster car's ghost to see where I'm losing time and if I was just doing bad corners or what. Usually it's pretty easy to see when a car is effortlessly staying ahead while I struggle to keep up and just keep losing ground.
 
Yep, i hear ya. You can get twice the number of laps in at GVE though...so if you can't get'er done in say 10 laps (~10-15 minutes)...its time to mess with tuning (if you really want to drive the car) or move on.

I push hard to make cars fast so I need a track that will give me instant results. I'll know in 2 minutes what would take 4-5 minutes to determine at Suzuka.
 
Well I am planning to try a bunch of tracks, and GVE is on that list. The other thing I didn't want to do was make too many assumptions from any single track; so the Suzuka results are specific to Suzuka. Other tracks may be better for generic testing but I'm also very interested in the exceptions.
 

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