Saudi Arabia

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Famine

Famine

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Rule 12
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Once more a killing of a Westerner happens on Saudi shores. Once more the resulting "panic" sends prices of crude through the roof.

What the hell is going on here? Saudi Arabia, the birthplace of Osama bin Laden, and the overwhelming majority of the 9/11 hijackers, the no-go zone for Westerners, was where "we" based the majority of our troops for the two Gulf Wars, yet the populous seems to be hellbent on killing us.

Did "we" attack the wrong country? Is Saudi Arabia becoming Iraq II - after all "we" supported Iraq in it's war against Iran, then base ourselves in Saudi for attacks on Iraq - where next?

Should "the West" withdraw from the Middle East altogether and let them wipe themselves out without blaming us for a change?
 
Things are bad in every Arab nation. Especially in Pakistan which was once a very friendly nation, business wise, to America. In a way they still are, but a lot of the country is being lost to terrorists. And they have nuclear weapons. Oh boy!

The big dilemma is what should we do about it? Go into every nation with military force to put a stop to it? Or just keep doing what we've been doing, gathering up intelligence and playing it by ear. Do what needs to be done first, and then go on to the next set of issues that need to be dealt with. We've been trying to get each nation to deal with the problems at hand. Saudi Arabia has made promises to the US to get rid of, and deal with any terrorist activities. So far, so good, but it's not perfect.

It's a huge problem that will be here for years. We've tainted their way of life, thanks to TV (satellite). We've interfered with their business dealings. They see us as a great distructor of their way of life, and being. What are we suppose to do about it? How do we address this huge problem?
 
If the US just got out of the Middel East all together, they would collapse in a matter of months.

I never agreed with the US being in Isreal (sp?), if annoys me to know that we support a country just a guilty as any other country over there. The Middel East is wild, a bunch of people who think they are doing Gods will. Now I'm not the most religious person in the world, but I know a little about major religions and "God" doesn't want you to kill.

I say just let the damn people over there whipe them selves out, the whole self extermination rule.
 
Originally posted by Famine

Should "the West" withdraw from the Middle East altogether and let them wipe themselves out without blaming us for a change?
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If that happened, then Israel would become the next major "infidel", and suicide bombings and revenge attacks would start all over again.

Its a lose, lose situation. If the "West" is present, they are infidels. If the "West" withdraw then Israel - and by extension the "West" - become infidels.

You cant out-strategise barbarians, which is what fundametalists essentially amount to.
 
It is my understanding the Saudi Arabia is perhaps the most influential and important of all Arab countries. It has deep signifigance for historical, cultural and religious reasons.

It is also one of the most pro-West. Thus, making it a perfect target for fundamentalists, extermists and anyone with a bone to pick with the US.

Allowing Saudi Arabia to suffer some sort of social upheveal or extreme change in government would be a bad thing. This is why there has been a certain amount of pressure on the royal family to address some of the country's social ills.

The worst thing we can do in the Middle East is abandon our allies. If Musharraf's government in Pakistan for example, falls in a coup or rebellion, we then have islamic fundamentalists/extremists in charge of a country with a vast nuclear stockpile. Very, very bad.


M
 
Saudi Arabia has the most important sites in Islam and according to the radicals every inch is sacred and America is on the sacred soil so we must all be killed..its on Osamas to do list along with killing the Saudi Royal family and creating a taliban type government there. Of course killing all the jews is on that list to aqlong with the Russians in Chechnia...so many infidels to kill so little time. poor guy wonder how he finds time to sleep.
 
What happens to America if it withdraws all involvement from every single place outside the United States? I want that. I couldn't care less about saving people in other countries, while American troops die.
 
I think that if we let the Middle Eastern countries destroy themselves, we will loose a major source of oil. Since Bush won't tap into our oil reserves, the price of gas will climb ever-higher. I don't agree with troops in Iraq, but i support them. I think Bush let 9/11 happen just so he had a reason to go into the Middle East, just as FDR let Pearl Harbor happen. Bush just want's to get back at Sadaam for attempting to assassinate his dad. I understand why he is in Afghanistan and Pakistan, but why is he in Iraq? Osama is not in Iraq, nor is Al Queda. There may be some pro-Al Queda people in Iraq, but it is based in Afghanistan. This is a war on terrorism, not a war on Sadaam. Sadaam had nothing to do with 9/11. He may torture his people, but he is not hurting us. Even IF he had WMD's, he would have no way of unleashing them on us if Bush steps up national security, meaning national defense. Entering Iraq to dethrone Sadaam is pure offense. Iraq is another Vietnam. There are simply too many enemies. American troops find themselves shooting inot crouds of innocent people because they don't know who the enemy is. Bush should've never entered Iraq in the first place. Sorry, I've drifted off-topic a little bit...
 
Bush would never do that, his family is making money in the crude oil buisness, that's why he's doing nothing to relieve gas prices! In order for that to happen, Ralph Nader would have to be president and all of Congress must be memebrs of the Green Party. He wont get elected, yet he will run anyway. He's going to cost John Kerry the election, just as he did to Gore. Ralph Nader=Public Enemy #1
 
Originally posted by Klostrophobic
What happens to America if it withdraws all involvement from every single place outside the United States? I want that.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't. It’s not realistic, and it’s not right. We are already committed in Iraq as well as Afghanistan. Pulling out now would be the worst possible thing to do. We'd break every single promise to the people of those countries and set up them up for nothing but chaos. Warlords and fundamentalists would take over in those places and you'd end up dealing with them later when they start to expand their influence.

In addition, we'd look like capricious idiots who have no idea how to follow through long term goals to the rest of the world; reinforcing an already existing stigma. Bad idea.

More important is Pakistan. The government doesn't tell us what's going on there, but I'd wager the country is crawling with CIA spooks. Musharraf is not popular with the religious wonks in that country and he holds a tenuous grasp on power. I have no doubt our government is doing everything it can to help him out. And we should. If he is assassinated or overthrown, those crazy wonks stand a chance of getting hold of the country's nuclear arsenal.

Let me say that again. Imagine our boy Osama or some wonk just like him with not just a few, but a few thousand nuclear warheads. And ballistic missles. W00t. I can't imagine a better definition of the term clusterf&ck, can you?

Korea. If US forces withdraw from South Korea, there would be a major war there between the north and south within a few years, I'd wager. The communist north government would invade, overwhelming the south's military with its vastly superior numbers, destroy or loot everything in its path and subject the country to its utopian vision of starving, beating and raping everyone except those in the government or military apparatus.

(And we'd have no opportunity to enjoy Hyundais and Kias anymore. In which case, I fully support the unilateral withdrawl of all US troops and aid to South Korea.)

When the communist government finishes consuming everything of value like a horde of human locusts, they will seek to move on. Target: Japan. Then, where would we get our bad cartoons and deviant pornography from?

See Klos, its not a good idea to just pull out of all these places.


M
 
Originally posted by Solid Lifters
We've tainted their way of life, thanks to TV (satellite).
Click to expand...

Whoa there buddy! Who gave them satalites? I don't remember America or any western Nation forcing Satalite TV on them. If you believe that their culture is tainted due to Western TV then blame them for watching it!!! I'm not taking responsibility for that one, No Sireee!

And I agree with famine, let's just pull out of the middle east altogether! Including Israel! Why should we care if Israel is the next Infidel? They can support themselves. Look at their battle history. Why do we support them anyways? Their conflicts with the rest of the Arabl world will never be settled until there is a full-fledged war. Until one side is completely decimated. They will never be happy until then.

Look, it's either all or nothing. You can't really ever get away with half-@$$ing anything. And the American public will never support a Draft to give us the Troops we need to Attack everyone that we need to. Heck, they wouldn't support the idea to attack all these other countries anyways! And when we half-@$$ it, we get what we got now. A big political mess and not enough troops to do it right! Oh, and not to mention the world Opinion. If we start invading everyone on the list, then next thing you know we've turned into the Soviets or Hitlers Germany! Sure, we're doing it in the name of stopping Terrorism, but that is not what the world will see!

eh, no one's what the right answer. No one ever will. But if we just stayed out of everyone's business, you couldn't blame us for anything could you? Sure there would be all kinds of atrocities going on around the world, but that's not our problem is it? But when America does do something, everyone else B!@ches and cries and moans. But when we don't do something, it's our fault?

WTF????
 
Originally posted by Event Horizon
Bush would never do that, his family is making money in the crude oil buisness, that's why he's doing nothing to relieve gas prices! In order for that to happen, Ralph Nader would have to be president and all of Congress must be memebrs of the Green Party. He wont get elected, yet he will run anyway. He's going to cost John Kerry the election, just as he did to Gore. Ralph Nader=Public Enemy #1
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wow, that's a horrible attitude. So your saying it's completely wrong to buck the Holy Two Party system? Where your forced between two people, each of which is as equally terrible for our nation. One want's to make a profit and ruin the environment, the other wants to save the environment while destroying all individual rights and civil liberties?
 
Event horizon....
Bush would never do that, his family is making money in the crude oil buisness, that's why he's doing nothing to relieve gas prices! In order for that to happen, Ralph Nader would have to be president and all of Congress must be memebrs of the Green Party. He wont get elected, yet he will run anyway. He's going to cost John Kerry the election, just as he did to Gore. Ralph Nader=Public Enemy #1
Click to expand...
Since when did I wake up in a dictatorship ? Bush this Bush that...you have a very simplistic view of things Bush is only a President not king of the US or even friggin Texas for that matter,
and if you can add you would be able to figure out that all the damm oil in Iraq is not worth the money spent to fight the war and rebuild the country. When did thinking something out become a crime ? I know how hard it must be to not have the simple answer right there in front of you but sometimes you actually cant muddle through things with platitudes.
BTW as much as old crazy Ralph is on the fringe he actually represents people and if you had any recognition of the American way of government you would realize that he has every right to run for office and represnt his constituancy.
remember..not a dictatorship a representative democratic government by the people. Even if its only 50 % or so. Or in case of the electorial college ...a little less.
Anyway while I'm on a rant ..the world would be a scarier place without the US being around to kick ass when a tinpot knucklehead decides he wants what he wants no matter who has to die. free trade ..ha ha ha without a good big rifle who to stop any nitwit who desires to from stealing ..or nationalizing any damm thing they care to..do you realy want to turn the US into a third world power ..like say France ? You think gas is expensive now at 2.30 to 2.75 a gallon ? Let Iraq or any other country with an attitude get controll of the persian gulf and the US can go back to horse drawn buggys while we wate for alternative energy sourses..And dont think that the economy of the US tanking wouldnt effect the rest of the world..just what we need a bunch more crazy half starved pissed off people with guns and a bad attitude. The US is asuper power like it or not we cant just fold up shop and leave a vacuum..everything in life has consequences our global presence is in direct proportion to our standard of living. Anyway what other country would you like running around killing people and breaking things ? Maybe Russia can take over for us..or China..or I know the UN..they have a great track record.
 
Originally posted by ledhed
So Famine whats gas up to in the UK now ? You seem kinda cranky..
Click to expand...

It's roughly equivalent to $5 (US) per US gallon. And it's headin' on up... But that's mainly due to our government putting a 75% duty on fuel, and collecting 17.5% VAT on it as well. Without fuel duty, we'd be at about $1.65 per US gallon.
 
I think what we need is a Muslim super power that can 'police' Muslim areas. With us 'weterners' there, and our beliefs we are only infuriating these countries and people even more.
We are part of the reason these countries are so wealthy, we bought their oil and paid them well for it, our demand is growing but they see no reason to meet our needs, instead they hike the prices.
And now, they don't need us any more, they have big mutha truckin China to buy their oil now while we all sit in the corner waiting for people to start protesting (which is happening tomorrow in South Wales).

P.s. Good luck anyone going to the Ford RS club meating at Margam (if any of you) there could be alot of trucks blocking the roads.
 
Originally posted by 87chevy
Whoa there buddy! Who gave them satalites? I don't remember America or any western Nation forcing Satalite TV on them. If you believe that their culture is tainted due to Western TV then blame them for watching it!!! I'm not taking responsibility for that one, No Sireee!
WTF????
Click to expand...

I think you misunderstood me a little. I don't really care about the fact that their society is/has changing/changed. I think it it's great. But, there are "radicals" that absolutely hate what has/is happened/happening. These radicals blame the US for this, when the blame should be on Saudi Arabian radicals that can't tollerate autochthonous cultural progression.
 
Liberals seem to forget why they voted for the war in the first place. Here's a list of why the US and the Coalition attacked Iraq:

  1. Had illegal Biological and Chemical weapons
  2. Had interest in developing Nuclear weapons
  3. Had the ability to attack Middle East neighbors like Israel, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait
  4. Had illegal long range missiles beyond the 90 mile limit
  5. Used those weapons to attack Iraqis
  6. Supported terrorism throughout the Middle East
  7. Disallowed UN weapon inspectors to search fully, without restriction
  8. Disobeyed 17 UN resolutions to disarm
  9. Continually disobeyed the north and south No Fly Zones
  10. Repressed the Iraqi people under dictatorship
    [/list=1]

    Sometimes, you just gotta' clean up the mess.

    I used http://www.globalsecurity.org as my source.
 
He also targeted and launched missiles at American aircraft in both no-fly zones. He also shot down an unmanned aircraft. He also smuggled out crude oil, and smuggled in weapons. He also aided terrorists that attacked the USS Cole(sp?).

There's probably even more reasons.
 
Everyone,,,
I’m from Saudi Arabia, and I can tell you that what is happening here is not to the liking of most of the people here,,,
The government and the authorities are doing what it can to stop all this, and it will take time, but stereotyping is no answer, and labeling Muslims as terrorist is not also.
It is not to my pride that the criminals responsible for the 9/11 attacks were, most of them, of Saudi nationals.
If you speak to most, if not all, of the community here you will find that they are strongly against what is happening.

Every day passes by and I thank God for what I have been blessed with, a lovely wife a great family and a decent life,,,
And I pray for this evil to end, because this is not Islam and definitely not God will…

May all the victims rest in peace
Amen
 
Welcome nael . I think most sane people recognize that the terrorist are a minority within the Muslim community.
The facts are the facts and one should keep in mind that some of theses nitwits are from the US and left to join AL Queda and that the top leadership is from Egypt . The organization itself has cells all over the Muslim and Christian world. this is truly a world problem not just an American or saudi problem. Fortunately some nations are taking an active part in trying to eliminate the problem. Unfortunately alot of countries seem to feel better sitting on the sidelines hoping to avoid the problem.
 
Welcome, nael. I'm very glad to hear someone in the Middle East adding their words to the subject.

I will repeat what ledhed said above - in all honesty, most Americans understand that Islam in general is not to blame for the terror and the violence. Radical fundamentalists are a problem for all cultures.

It's all about control, of course. Secular culture is seductive to people, and religious fanatics cannot tolerate the threat to their control over the public. The more conservative the cleric, the more hysterical the need to destroy the "threat" that is taking away their followers.

Please do keep involved in these threads if you can, because we need to hear from someone with first hand knowledge of the issues and social atmosphere.
 
Originally posted by nael_scorpio
Everyone,,,
I’m from Saudi Arabia, and I can tell you that what is happening here is not to the liking of most of the people here,,,
The government and the authorities are doing what it can to stop all this, and it will take time, but stereotyping is no answer, and labeling Muslims as terrorist is not also.
It is not to my pride that the criminals responsible for the 9/11 attacks were, most of them, of Saudi nationals.
If you speak to most, if not all, of the community here you will find that they are strongly against what is happening.

Every day passes by and I thank God for what I have been blessed with, a lovely wife a great family and a decent life,,,
And I pray for this evil to end, because this is not Islam and definitely not God will…

May all the victims rest in peace
Amen
Click to expand...
god you bring tears to my eyes
sniff..:embarrassed:
thats my big brother
:D
 
Originally posted by Viper Zero
Liberals seem to forget why they voted for the war in the first place. Here's a list of why the US and the Coalition attacked Iraq:

  1. Had illegal Biological and Chemical weapons
  2. Had interest in developing Nuclear weapons
  3. Had the ability to attack Middle East neighbors like Israel, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait
  4. Had illegal long range missiles beyond the 90 mile limit
  5. Used those weapons to attack Iraqis
  6. Supported terrorism throughout the Middle East
  7. Disallowed UN weapon inspectors to search fully, without restriction
  8. Disobeyed 17 UN resolutions to disarm
  9. Continually disobeyed the north and south No Fly Zones
  10. Repressed the Iraqi people under dictatorship
    [/list=1]

    Sometimes, you just gotta' clean up the mess.
Click to expand...


  1. Apart from the last two on the list (arguably the last one can be included since "we" helped install Saddam in power), the USA and the UK are responsible of all of those things - we have Biological, Chemical and Nuclear weapons, can attack anyone anywhere in the world with long range missiles, used DU weapons on the Iraqi army and frequently disobey the UN - like when they said not to attack Saddam.

    I make no comment on whether or not it was right to "remove Saddam from power" however. I do perpetually forget why it was we invaded though, since Tony Blair keeps on changing his mind.


    nael - and your brother... - hopefully you realise that I'm not actually saying "attack Saudi Arabia", just as you realise that no-one seriously thinks Moslems are all terrorists. Merely pointing out a few things "of interest".
 
Originally posted by Famine
since "we" helped install Saddam in power)
Click to expand...

"We" did not install Saddam into power. The US helped the Ba'ath party into power in 1953, yet if fell in 1957, and only to regain power lead by Saddam in the 70's. Saddam came into power by himself, by killing anyone who opposed him.

the USA and the UK are responsible of all of those things - we have Biological, Chemical and Nuclear weapons, can attack anyone anywhere in the world with long range missiles, used DU weapons on the Iraqi army/
Click to expand...

The US and the UK are not rouge nations and adhere to the policies of the UN and NATO. Iraq does not. I can list all the other countries that have 'weapons of mass destruction' as well, it's not just 'us'.

frequently disobey the UN - like when they said not to attack Saddam.
Click to expand...

Yet, Iraq frequently disobeyed the UN as well. The UN did not enforce their own resolutions. The US and the UK upheld those resolutions and invaded Iraq and welcomed any country to join the willing. Just because one or two countries disliked any attack on Iraq because they had lucrative oil contracts doesn't mean the attack is wrong.
 
Originally posted by Viper Zero
The US and the UK are not rogue nations and adhere to the policies of the UN and NATO

[...]

Yet, Iraq frequently disobeyed the UN as well.
Click to expand...

"We" adhere to the rules of the UN, yet disobeyed them to attack Iraq. Wow - I wish I could be a rule-ignoring non-rogue nation.

Please note that I did NOT say the attack on Iraq was wrong, although you imply that I think that.
 

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