School shooting in Texas (shooter arrested)

[Danoff]

My point was that sensible gun control has been successful in other countries and they are not more dangerous then the US because of it.

Please provide evidence of this claim. Show me murder rates dropping faster in "other countries" following gun control than they drop in the US over the same time period. Keep in mind that even if you ignore all gun statistics, we still murder faster here than those other "successful" countries.

Also healthcare is a right... not a privilege!

No it's not. But we probably spend as much on socialized medicine as you do. Also, why does this belong in this thread?

 

[Joey D]

If anything relating to the government could've helped prevent this, it would be mental health reform. Our track record in the US is appalling with regards to mental health benefits and even most insurance companies struggle to support adequate treatment. And even if the insurance does cover it, copays are often prohibitively expensive for some people. There's also a long trial and error method before they'll even start paying for certain drugs or treatment.

Clearly, this kid had some underlying issues and for some reason wasn't treated properly or didn't seek treatment at all. But, without more information, it's also hard to say what the reason is so at this point I'm just speculating on what could've helped prevent this.

I also wonder if the idea of "toxic masculinity" also played into this. Males are, for the most part at least, taught by society that they aren't supposed to show emotion and that in order to solve problems violence is often the answer. This one-two punch could've easily played a role in the shooter going off the deep end and shooting up a school. This obviously doesn't excuse what the shooter did though.

I think @Danoff put it best when he indicated the US has more of a violence problem than a gun problem. We have far too many violent people and if we were to take away guns, they'd just use some other method of causing harm. I mean take the Boston Marathon bombers for example, they killed and injured people using pressure cookers.

 

[Johnnypenso]

My point was that sensible gun control has been successful in other countries and they are not more dangerous then the US because of it. Going to school with armed guards around and metal detectors is not normal in Europe. Having to go to school everyday confronted with the real possibility of a mass shooting just makes me real sad for the children in the US. I have children myself and would move to another country if it got so far that their school needed metal detectors and armed guards. Also healthcare is a right... not a privilege!

Gun control is considered "sensible" when you agree with it and when nothing horrific happens as a result. Hitler banned Jews and Gypsies from owning guns. Stalin severely limited the right of ordinary Russians from owning guns as well. Would some of those tens of millions of gunless people have lived in the absence of gun controls? Maybe, maybe not, we'll never know, partly because the victims that may have benefited from having guns are all dead and guns are a poor defense against mortars, gas attacks and tanks. But I believe that Americans see "taking their guns away" as part and parcel of a movement towards tyranny and totalitarianism and away from individual liberty and freedom which Americans value deeply. The symbolism is powerful, especially given the circumstances that led to the American Revolution.

If anything relating to the government could've helped prevent this, it would be mental health reform. Our track record in the US is appalling with regards to mental health benefits and even most insurance companies struggle to support adequate treatment. And even if the insurance does cover it, copays are often prohibitively expensive for some people. There's also a long trial and error method before they'll even start paying for certain drugs or treatment.

Clearly, this kid had some underlying issues and for some reason wasn't treated properly or didn't seek treatment at all. But, without more information, it's also hard to say what the reason is so at this point I'm just speculating on what could've helped prevent this.

I also wonder if the idea of "toxic masculinity" also played into this. Males are, for the most part at least, taught by society that they aren't supposed to show emotion and that in order to solve problems violence is often the answer. This one-two punch could've easily played a role in the shooter going off the deep end and shooting up a school. This obviously doesn't excuse what the shooter did though.

I think @Danoff put it best when he indicated the US has more of a violence problem than a gun problem. We have far too many violent people and if we were to take away guns, they'd just use some other method of causing harm. I mean take the Boston Marathon bombers for example, they killed and injured people using pressure cookers.

What underlying issues have come to light that would have possibly led to him getting or seeking mental health treatment or would have made someone else feel he needed help of some kind beyond a pat on the shoulder or a hug? From what I've read he was bullied some at school and rejected by a girl he liked. Welcome to highschool. It's trial by fire. Boys in particular have been dealing with this for centuries by the tens of millions and 99.9999% of us didn't snap and shoot up our schools. Maybe I missed something in this case but I don't see a lot of red flags that would have led someone to think he was anything other than another boy who wasn't lucky with girls and got pushed around some.

 

[Joey D]

What underlying issues have come to light that would have possibly led to him getting or seeking mental health treatment or would have made someone else feel he needed help of some kind beyond a pat on the shoulder or a hug? From what I've read he was bullied some at school and rejected by a girl he liked. Welcome to highschool. It's trial by fire. Boys in particular have been dealing with this for centuries by the tens of millions and 99.9999% of us didn't snap and shoot up our schools. Maybe I missed something in this case but I don't see a lot of red flags that would have led someone to think he was anything other than another boy who wasn't lucky with girls and got pushed around some.

Which is exactly why I said, "Clearly, this kid had some underlying issues and for some reason wasn't treated properly or didn't seek treatment at all."

No mentally healthy person would assume shooting up a school is an appropriate response.

 

[Biggles]

I think @Danoff put it best when he indicated the US has more of a violence problem than a gun problem.

I'm really not sure that this is true. Plenty of other countries have violence problems. Look at the history of football hooliganism in the UK, for instance. It's endemic, nasty & "senseless". The difference is they don't have guns, so killings are pretty uncommon. It's also unusual for criminals to carry guns in the UK. The police don't even carry guns: shooting of police officers are very rare & shootings by the police are also very rare.

Most of the US is not particularly violent, the gun violence is centered disproportionately on certain urban areas & are largely a consequence of gang & drug activity. Accidental gun deaths & suicides are also, not surprisingly, much higher when there are many guns present.

These senseless, more or less random mass shootings are a specific problem. Mental health issues are obviously a significant factor, but I don't see any reason to believe that they are worse than in other developed countries. The difference again, is extremely easy access to guns, compared to other countries. I don't think "killing people" is the goal, as MustangRyan has indicated, there are many possible ways to kill a lot of people, but these shooters choose guns because of the (presumably) specific visceral thrill it gives them. They want to SHOOT people ... & the more it happens, the more it inspires other mentally unstable individuals to do the same. So, while all other categories of gun violence (& crime in general) have been dropping in the US for decades, these kinds of killings are increasing.

I don't think the bombing at the Boston marathon fall into the same category as it was politically motivated. I don't see the typical mass shooter turning to bombs. I'd be a bit more concerned about vehicle attacks as (& I hate to say it) mowing people down with a van might have the same kind of visceral appeal as shooting them & would be VERY hard to prevent.

I'm not sure what the answer is. Identifying a possible shooter in advance is a bit like searching for a needle in a haystack. It's not likely that you could identify & stop all potential threats. Banning semi-automatic assault rifles takes away the scarier type of weapon, but as the latest incident shows, someone with determination, some training & the right strategy can shoot a lot of people without using an assault-style rifle. I think part of the solution would be making the backgrounds checks for gun ownership much more rigorous & impressing on gun owners the legal requirement to prevent their guns falling into the wrong hands, the use of biometrics & similar incremental steps.

 

[Danoff]

I'm really not sure that this is true. Plenty of other countries have violence problems. Look at the history of football hooliganism in the UK, for instance. It's endemic, nasty & "senseless". The difference is they don't have guns, so killings are pretty uncommon. It's also unusual for criminals to carry guns in the UK. The police don't even carry guns: shooting of police officers are very rare & shootings by the police are also very rare.

Access to guns doesn't explain it. We're near 2:1 compared to the UK even if you ignore all gun deaths... and of course... ignoring all gun deaths isn't fair. Because it would obviously be a non-zero fraction of those that would occur via some other means. And you have to account for the number of people that would have been murdered except they had a gun for defense. So the 60% below can't just vanish. At best, part of it could be eliminated - it's just a matter of how and at what cost.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Which is exactly why I said, "Clearly, this kid had some underlying issues and for some reason wasn't treated properly or didn't seek treatment at all."

No mentally healthy person would assume shooting up a school is an appropriate response.

Or he was just a run of the mill bullied kid who got rejected by his highschool crush and read 30 times in the media in the last few years it was cool to shoot up a school. He just snapped and thought it was a good idea at the time. Getting into your car with three of your friends when you've had 4 beers isn't an appropriate response either and kids do it all the time. They jump into rivers full of rocks, ride their motorcycles too fast, smoke weed, take drugs, steal stuff, and generally do a lot of dumb stuff that's potentially life threatening that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with mental illness but rather they sometimes lack the capacity to make good decisions at that point in their life. Kids do inappropriate things all the time it's part of being a kid. As they inevitably turn his life upside down maybe more will be revealed or he might turn out to be like Stephen Paddock for whom, as far as I know, no motive has been revealed that would cause someone to kill dozens and injure hundreds.

 

[Danoff]

Or he was just a run of the mill bullied kid who got rejected by his highschool crush and read 30 times in the media in the last few years it was cool to shoot up a school. He just snapped and thought it was a good idea at the time. Getting into your car with three of your friends when you've had 4 beers isn't an appropriate response either and kids do it all the time. They jump into rivers full of rocks, ride their motorcycles too fast, smoke weed, take drugs, steal stuff, and generally do a lot of dumb stuff that's potentially life threatening that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with mental illness but rather they sometimes lack the capacity to make good decisions at that point in their life.

A lot of your examples have to do with things that are fun but dangerous. Maybe this kid thought it would be fun to shoot up the school, but that makes him mentally ill. I don't think it's possible to be so impressionable that you read a news headline 30 times and decide to go out and do it. But maybe he read those news headlines and realized that he could spend his life this way and be remembered.

 

[Joey D]

Or he was just a run of the mill bullied kid who got rejected by his highschool crush and read 30 times in the media in the last few years it was cool to shoot up a school. He just snapped and thought it was a good idea at the time. Getting into your car with three of your friends when you've had 4 beers isn't an appropriate response either and kids do it all the time. They jump into rivers full of rocks, ride their motorcycles too fast, smoke weed, take drugs, steal stuff, and generally do a lot of dumb stuff that's potentially life threatening that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with mental illness but rather they sometimes lack the capacity to make good decisions at that point in their life. Kids do inappropriate things all the time it's part of being a kid. As they inevitably turn his life upside down maybe more will be revealed or he might turn out to be like Stephen Paddock for whom, as far as I know, no motive has been revealed that would cause someone to kill dozens and injure hundreds.

Can you really not differentiate between those activities that you posted and shooting up a school?

Doing something dumb does not make someone mentally ill, it's just them making bad choices (drinking and driving) or just risky choices for the thrill of it (riding a motorcycle).

Killing people is not dumb behavior, it's sociopathic, demented, and not at all normal.

 

[UKMikey]

Or he was just a run of the mill bullied kid who got rejected by his highschool crush and read 30 times in the media in the last few years it was cool to shoot up a school.

If he were run of the mill then why isn't this kind of behaviour more widespread? Shooting up schools isn't typical teenage behaviour no matter what picture "the media" presents.

 

[PocketZeven]

Again, no gun control law either added or enforced would've prevented this shooting. This guy had no red flags and yet was able to commit a catastrophe. And quit using the "we don't have it in x" argument, because we are not x and we will never be.

"healthcare is a right... not a privilege"
Completely wrong thread for this type of discussion, genius, but if you really want to go that far, it wasn't even bad before the ACA was implemented.

You can spin it around!
You are stating something that isn’t a fact. Where is the proof gun control could not have prevented this or other shootings?
Everybody already knows about what happened in Australia. But it always seems to be dismissed with excuses like that “Australian culture is different” or “this would not work in the US” etc. I am voicing my opinion not to tell you how the US should do it, but just telling how our part of the world is different in handling gun laws. Once upon a time Americans were Europeans too.

Also please do research on healthcare in European countries. The majority never ever will need to worry about medical bills throughout there life. It isn’t perfect, but much better then how it’s handled in the US.

 

[Johnnypenso]

If he were run of the mill then why isn't this kind of behaviour more widespread? Shooting up schools isn't typical teenage behaviour no matter what picture "the media" presents.

 

[Mr Tree]

And some of the counter arguments to gun control aren't bad either. Making a mockery of them as you did a few posts ago really makes me question whether you want to have a conversation about it or just have your own way.

I did so because one of those tactics was applied by the poster. I have accepted mine to be made a mockery of and even agreed there is good reason for it. I agreed they stem from an actual argument when used in a conversation and not to stop the conversation.

So what was the actual point of your post? To say I do not accept some of them as honnest arguments while I did so in the part you qouted.
That I want to say everyone pro 2d amendment is bad? Something I haven't done.
I've had honnest conversations with both you and danoff about the legislation itself and.the cultural.difficulties for the USA. They actually made me.way more nuanced. And I have not advocated for a single legislation yet in this thread. All I did was point out conversationstoppers.

Please what explain.what the intent of your post was as it flies right over my head.

Well? ...

It doesn't seem run of the mill behavior by the very 'chart' you post. What was the point?

 

[TexRex]

The implication being that it is typical teenage behavior [in the United States]?

 

[Johnnypenso]

Well? ...
It doesn't seem run of the mill behavior by the very 'chart' you post. What was the point?

It doesn't? How many times do you have to see something happen on the news until it becomes "normal"? There's practically non-stop coverage of everything these days and school shootings are able to generate high ratings and therefore get more than 24 hours coverage these days.

 

[Mr Tree]

It doesn't? How many times do you have to see something happen on the news until it becomes "normal"? There's practically non-stop coverage of everything these days and school shootings are able to generate high ratings and therefore get more than 24 hours coverage these days.

You realise it's in the new because it's not run of the mill behavior.
If it's normal teenage behavior why isn't the number higher in canada, france, italy,...

Also there was a question in the post you qouted you still didn't answer and I'd very much appreciate it if you do

 

[TexRex]

*clears throat*

https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=372

In fall 2017, about 50.7 million students will attend public elementary and secondary schools. Of these, 35.6 million will be in prekindergarten through grade 8 and 15.1 million will be in grades 9 through 12. An additional 5.2 million students are expected to attend private elementary and secondary schools. The fall 2017 public school enrollment is expected to be slightly higher than the 50.6 million enrolled in fall 2016 (source).

Ignoring that the cited 288 is since 2009 and the eldest of said teenagers are fast approaching 30, citing said graphic to represent what is "typical" suggests that "typical" is defined as a .002% portion of the whole.

 

[Johnnypenso]

You realise it's in the new because it's not run of the mill behavior.

You realize it's in the news because it generates ratings, the only thing that matters to a for profit news network?

If it's normal teenage behavior why isn't the number higher in canada, france, italy,...

Because Canada, France and Italy aren't the U.S. of A.

Also there was a question in the post you qouted you still didn't answer and I'd very much appreciate it if you do

What was the question?

 

[Mr Tree]

You realize it's in the news because it generates ratings, the only thing that matters to a for profit news network?
Because Canada, France and Italy aren't the U.S. of A.

What was the question?

Ofcourse it generates revenue when it's out of the ordinary.

The question is pretty much the post you ignored yesterday. The first posg of mine you replied to today contained both your post of yesterday and mine with the question. See below

And some of the counter arguments to gun control aren't bad either. Making a mockery of them as you did a few posts ago really makes me question whether you want to have a conversation about it or just have your own way.

I did so because one of those tactics was applied by the poster. I have accepted mine to be made a mockery of and even agreed there is good reason for it. I agreed they stem from an actual argument when used in a conversation and not to stop the conversation.

So what was the actual point of your post? To say I do not accept some of them as honnest arguments while I did so in the part you qouted.
That I want to say everyone pro 2d amendment is bad? Something I haven't done.
I've had honnest conversations with both you and danoff about the legislation itself and.the cultural.difficulties for the USA. They actually made me.way more nuanced. And I have not advocated for a single legislation yet in this thread. All I did was point out conversationstoppers.

Please what explain.what the intent of your post was as it flies right over my head.

 

[BobK]

The question is pretty much the post you ignored yesterday. The first posg of mine you replied to today contained both your post of yesterday and mine with the question. See below

Would it have been too much trouble to simply repeat the question?

 

[Mr Tree]

Would it have been too much trouble to simply repeat the question?

Was allready done by the time you posted it. See the quoted messages at the bottom...

It would be clear for someone who followed the discussion in full as did @Johnnypenso and @TetsuKobura

 

[TetsuKobura]

You can spin it around!
You are stating something that isn’t a fact. Where is the proof gun control could not have prevented this or other shootings?
Everybody already knows about what happened in Australia. But it always seems to be dismissed with excuses like that “Australian culture is different” or “this would not work in the US” etc. I am voicing my opinion not to tell you how the US should do it, but just telling how our part of the world is different in handling gun laws. Once upon a time Americans were Europeans too.

Also please do research on healthcare in European countries. The majority never ever will need to worry about medical bills throughout there life. It isn’t perfect, but much better then how it’s handled in the US.

Do you honestly believe a gun ban like you're implying would've prevented this shooting? Criminals will always find ways to carry out a disturbing event. Not to mention, the kid had illegal possession of weapons because you're not allowed to have weapons under 18, you're not allowed to have a sawed off shotgun, and it's illegal to make explosives.

Also I really don't care how your country handles healthcare. It's the wrong thread to be posting about it and goes here instead.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Wow. Really didn't expect to wake up to find someone equating smoking weed or speeding with shooting up a school. Kids will be kids, right?

 

[TexRex]

Would it have been too much trouble to simply repeat the question?

Would it have been too much trouble for @Johnnypenso to re-read the post he'd quoted?

 

[Biggles]

OK. Well here's my take. @Danoff: it's perfectly possible that the US is, overall, more violent than European countries (higher rate of homicide anyway) ... but by significantly less of a factor than the gun deaths create.

Killing people is not dumb behavior, it's sociopathic, demented, and not at all normal.

True, but here's the point: it may not be normal ... but it's MORE normal in the US than it is in European countries. There are angry, alienated, sociopathic kids everywhere in the world, but a kid like that in the UK, for instance, has almost no possibility of getting his hands on a gun, especially not something like an AR15. So that kid may smash windows, spray graffiti, torture small animals, or beat someone up - he's not going to go on a school shooting spree.

In the US, that same sociopathic, "demented" kid DOES have pretty easy access to guns, so he is able to directly act out his violent fantasies. The next demented kid sees that & thinks "yeah I could do that" too - a second school shooting. After a while there's a pattern that NORMALIZES that behaviour, so kids that are less obviously sociopathic will take the step towards moving from thinking about it to actually DOING it. Now you've got a school shooting "epidemic" on your hands.

I would suggest that this is similar to the way suicides work: there are countries that have extremely high rates of suicide. People are more likely to choose to kill themselves because killing yourself is more "normal".

 

[PocketZeven]

Do you honestly believe a gun ban like you're implying would've prevented this shooting? Criminals will always find ways to carry out a disturbing event. Not to mention, the kid had illegal possession of weapons because you're not allowed to have weapons under 18, you're not allowed to have a sawed off shotgun, and it's illegal to make explosives.

Also I really don't care how your country handles healthcare. It's the wrong thread to be posting about it and goes here instead.

You are missing my point and I am not trying to argue. I am just asking you to be open to the facts and way of life in other western countries. Although not perfect, we can learn a lot from each other. Do not dismiss any commentary and comparison with other countries as "not relevant".

It is very disturbing how there are people choose to ignore global statistics, choose to spin it another way or even claim "fake" statistics.

In my opinion strict gun laws are worth it if it can save (childrens) lives as it did in Australia, after the Port Arthur incident. I encourage you to study the incident and the actions the government took. And try to be as unbiased as you possibly can be. Use "neutral"sources and try to avoid right-or leftwing "news" sources.

 

[MatskiMonk]

You are missing my point and I am not trying to argue. I am just asking you to be open to the facts and way of life in other western countries. Although not perfect, we can learn a lot from each other. Do not dismiss any commentary and comparison with other countries as "not relevant".

It is very disturbing how there are people choose to ignore global statistics, choose to spin it another way or even claim "fake" statistics.
View attachment 738055

So what you're saying is... if they had 32 times the number of guns, 100% of shooters could be restrained by armed citizens... C'mon NRA, what are playing about at!!

 

[PocketZeven]

As a loaner that was slightly bullied, never quite hit it with the girls, has self harmed, has


So what you're saying is... if they had 32 times the number of guns, 100% of shooters could be restrained by armed citizens... C'mon NRA, what are playing about at!!

The claim that only a good guy with a gun, can stop a bad guy with a gun is just not factually true.

 

[Joey D]

True, but here's the point: it may not be normal ... but it's MORE normal in the US than it is in European countries. There are angry, alienated, sociopathic kids everywhere in the world, but a kid like that in the UK, for instance, has almost no possibility of getting his hands on a gun, especially not something like an AR15. So that kid may smash windows, spray graffiti, torture small animals, or beat someone up - he's not going to go on a school shooting spree.

In the US, the that same sociopathic, "demented" kids DOES have pretty easy access to guns, so he is able to directly act out his violent fantasies. The next demented kid sees that & thinks "yeah I could do that" too - a second school shooting. After a while there's a pattern that NORMALIZES that behaviour, so kids that are less obviously sociopathic will take the step towards moving from thinking about it to actually DOING it. Now you've got a school shooting "epidemic" on your hands.

I would suggest that this is similar to the way suicides work: there are countries that have extremely high rates of suicide. People are more likely to choose to kill themselves because killing yourself is more "normal".

That's a fair point.

I do think access to guns does make it easier for violent people to carry out their twisted fantasies. However, I do wonder if you took guns out of the equation, would these people just use something else? I don't know, nor do I have an answer.

I've spent a bit of time in Europe and while watching TV in various European countries, it seems like violence is less likely to be shown, while sex is pretty common. In the US that's the complete opposite. We're exposed to things like swearing and sex far less than we are exposed to violence in our media. As an example, I watch Vikings on History when it airs and recently I bought the European version of the show. Throughout the show, there are several scenes with nudity and graphic sex scenes. Those are for the most part cut out of the US version of the show even though they have no problem showing a really detailed scene about cutting a dude's lungs out and flopping them on his shoulders. Sure, it's anecdotal, but it's the best example I think of off the top of my head.

Take someone who's not mentally healthy and expose them to that stuff again and again and chances are they'll start thinking that way. While a vast majority of us can separate fiction from reality, some folks can't.

I also don't know a ton about the European style of healthcare other than what our media spouts about it (which is probably wrong). In the US, mental health is pretty low on what's treated, maybe in Europe, there are better services for that? I don't know, but I'm inclined to think mentally ill people have better access to care than they do in the US.

 

[PocketZeven]

That's a fair point.

I do think access to guns does make it easier for violent people to carry out their twisted fantasies. However, I do wonder if you took guns out of the equation, would these people just use something else? I don't know, nor do I have an answer.

I've spent a bit of time in Europe and while watching TV in various European countries, it seems like violence is less likely to be shown, while sex is pretty common. In the US that's the complete opposite. We're exposed to things like swearing and sex far less than we are exposed to violence in our media. As an example, I watch Vikings on History when it airs and recently I bought the European version of the show. Throughout the show, there are several scenes with nudity and graphic sex scenes. Those are for the most part cut out of the US version of the show even though they have no problem showing a really detailed scene about cutting a dude's lungs out and flopping them on his shoulders. Sure, it's anecdotal, but it's the best example I think of off the top of my head.

Take someone who's not mentally healthy and expose them to that stuff again and again and chances are they'll start thinking that way. While a vast majority of us can separate fiction from reality, some folks can't.

I also don't know a ton about the European style of healthcare other than what our media spouts about it (which is probably wrong). In the US, mental health is pretty low on what's treated, maybe in Europe, there are better services for that? I don't know, but I'm inclined to think mentally ill people have better access to care than they do in the US.

No country is perfect though. But seeing you are American it is great that you are at least open minded. All countries should learn from each other to build a better world for future generations.