Several Steps Away From Greatness. (AKA Lack of Vision)

[Johnnypenso]

If only Kaz could read and understand this :-(

I will attempt to help you get this ;-) Basically, they (the current beta testers PD uses) are apparently incapable of testing the online aspects of the game properly. With every update that PD has released with this game we (the community) have been posting about bugs and problems here on this very forum within hours of download. I know I have ;-)

So basically results speak for themselves, we (the community here) actually do a better job *for free* than the paid for, so called professional testers.

Also,what a really nice concept too, a game studio that would actually listen to the genuine complaints from its players and then promptly utilise that feedback to improve and refine their game a little more. What a wonderful win/win situation. The studio gets a better product for free and the players get a better game to play. So my question now would be "why wouldn't every studio do this?"

As a footnote, I have been following the progress of Pcars and have pre-ordered it. It only has to be half as good as it looks like it will be to be twice as good as what GT6 is ;-) I personally place a very high value on community input.

There are many advantages to using "free" testers" as PCars has. Not having to worry about your job being on the line or consequences from your feedback. The potential for hundreds or thousands of people trying something out vs. a handful. People from all walks of life and all skillsets provide a wider base of feedback from the casual user to the uber professional sim pilot.
There could be disadvantages too. Because they aren't professional the testers may not be able to verbalize or accurately describe what they are feeling/seeing/hearing. Too much feedback may be hard to coordinate. Trolls giving purposefully deceptive, negative feedback.

All in all I think it is a grand experiment and I'm stoked to find out what it delivers in a couple of months. This could revolutionize game design it's that big of a deal IMO

 

[chengman]

I really hate to be optimistic, but I honestly do think the PS4 will revive the GT series. I'm pretty sure everyone knows that the PS3 has been pushed to its outer limits already. Circuito Sierra is already pushing the boundaries of what the PS3 is capable of and I hope to remain hopeful of GT7 being completely new and revolutionary. You can disagree with me, but I'm pretty sure we can all agree that the PS3 is on its last leg already.

 

[chengman]

There are many advantages to using "free" testers" as PCars has. Not having to worry about your job being on the line or consequences from your feedback. The potential for hundreds or thousands of people trying something out vs. a handful. People from all walks of life and all skillsets provide a wider base of feedback from the casual user to the uber professional sim pilot.
There could be disadvantages too. Because they aren't professional the testers may not be able to verbalize or accurately describe what they are feeling/seeing/hearing. Too much feedback may be hard to coordinate. Trolls giving purposefully deceptive, negative feedback.

All in all I think it is a grand experiment and I'm stoked to find out what it delivers in a couple of months. This could revolutionize game design it's that big of a deal IMO

The thing about PC gaming is that they don't have 12 year olds in their community, as opposed to the console industry. That's why Project Cars can do such a thing. They don't have to deal with pre teens complaining about their Bugatti Veyron not being able to hit 400mph like it can in NFS.

 

[Johnnypenso]

The thing about PC gaming is that they don't have 12 year olds in their community, as opposed to the console industry. That's why Project Cars can do such a thing. They don't have to deal with pre teens complaining about their Bugatti Veyron not being able to hit 400mph like it can in NFS.

If you're suggesting this would be an issue with PD if they copied such a program, it's not a hard thing to control. Age minimums would be one, strict moderation of the community in the vein of GTP and not being afraid to punt the trolls like PCars does would be another. Participation would obviously be limited to a fixed number and you'd have to apply, qualify etc. If they were smart they'd just farm 200-300 people right out of with Jordan's recommendation and blessing:tup:👍.

 

[chengman]

If you're suggesting this would be an issue with PD if they copied such a program, it's not a hard thing to control. Age minimums would be one, strict moderation of the community in the vein of GTP and not being afraid to punt the trolls like PCars does would be another. Participation would obviously be limited to a fixed number and you'd have to apply, qualify etc. If they were smart they'd just farm 200-300 people right out of with Jordan's recommendation and blessing:tup:👍.

200-300 is not representative enough. Think 20k-30k.

 

[Johnnypenso]

200-300 is not representative enough. Think 20k-30k.

The more the better for sure. Not sure PD could organize and collate the input of that many people though. Have you read the release notes that come with every update?

 

[N0t_L3fty]

Beta testing is great if you are willing to listen to the testers, many times that doesn't happen. I can name a popular Linux distro that lost a large amount of their users due to ignoring their input. Yes men & glad handers are a dime a dozen. The ones that warn you when you've gone off the rail are your real friends. The rest just stand around to see the wreckage, & say "see I told you so".
Don't think Kaz & company want any input that isn't yes men & glad handers. They have repeated the same goof ups over & over.
Not really sure they can be blamed for turning a blind eye to the complaints, the game still sells.
Now that may change in the future & they might actually try to clean up the mess they have created. It won't happen without people refusing to buy what they offer, & we keep buying.
I wonder what the reaction from Sony & Poly Phoney if they released GT7 & no one cared. Bet what ever issues there were would be addressed right away. If everyone said ho hum & left the disks on the shelf, that would make them think. Will it happen, depends on us.
I haven't given Sony any money for a PS4. I guess I could find some other racing game. Would I rather GT was tidied up, & made top of the line, sure beats building a new computer to keep up with master race (of gaming).
Wow once again I start a novella...

 

[NixxxoN]

If only Kaz could read and understand this :-(



I will attempt to help you get this ;-) Basically, they (the current beta testers PD uses) are apparently incapable of testing the online aspects of the game properly. With every update that PD has released with this game we (the community) have been posting about bugs and problems here on this very forum within hours of download. I know I have ;-)

So basically results speak for themselves, we (the community here) actually do a better job *for free* than the paid for, so called professional testers.

Also,what a really nice concept too, a game studio that would actually listen to the genuine complaints from its players and then promptly utilise that feedback to improve and refine their game a little more. What a wonderful win/win situation. The studio gets a better product for free and the players get a better game to play. So my question now would be "why wouldn't every studio do this?"

As a footnote, I have been following the progress of Pcars and have pre-ordered it. It only has to be half as good as it looks like it will be to be twice as good as what GT6 is ;-) I personally place a very high value on community input.

Honestly, If I were kaz, I'd rather listen to a small bunch of "professional" betatesters, giving proper feedback and knowing what they are doing, rather than hundreds of community amateur betatesters saying lots of differnt things and giving all sorts of feedback.

 

[kilesa4568]

If they can make a driving game that works so well on such limited and aging hardware, they've performed a minor miracle. Plenty of content catering for most people.

If they can squeeze the hardware as much as they have with previous games, bring on GT7. New Gran Turismo games are my excuse to buy myse...erm...I mean my kids, the new console.

I'm getting fed up waiting for the promised features like B Spec or the course maker though. I thought I was going to be buying a full game when I pre ordered, including the above. Not drip fed monthly or bi-monthly updates only to find what I originally wanted isn't there. Again. I pity the people with no internet access.

Close to a year old now and still no word on them.

 

[starcarper]

Hi all, you who have taken the time to look at this thread.
I am a GT player since the first incarnation, way back. I feel I cannot be the only one who is very disapointed with the way this game has evolved over the years ?
I love the game, and all of the games in the GT series, as I think you all must do, else you would not be on this forum. However I feel cheated at the way the game has been developed over the years.

PD owe me nothing, and I have nothing but admiration for the effort they have put in to the game and the results of that effort, but come on, how frustrating is it for the long time players who know how good this game could be ?

There are many aspects that are brilliant about this game. Despite my disappointment at the development progression of the game I continue to play, and given my cynicism in the gaming industry as a whole at this point that counts for a lot, not least in the opening of my wallet.

My point ? Frustration at how good this game could be. It is constraining, where it need not be. My suggestion ? Open this game up. Let people create their own championships, let people create their own specialized races, allow people to utilize the assets of the game for thier own satisfaction.

I am not sure what is going on within PD, but you is missin a trick innit.

Thats all I want to say. Now you can diss me, or lock this thread as you see fit. Or maybe discuss if you like.

Totally agree with you. If you haven't voted for this then get it done.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/event-creator.297781/

Get all your friends to vote for it. If they're not members of GTP then make them join then vote for it.

Go around the streets shouting "vote for event creator". Blast PD with every email you can and tell them you want it.

If at the end of all that you're still a free man then you'll know how frustrated we all are by waiting for this suggestion to come to GT.

 

[MeanElf]

Poly (much or many) phony (fake) it's all in the name. (yes I realize they have added an extra 'e')...

I do hope that was an attempt at a joke. Poly (Greek) phon(e)y (in your context: US slang) isn't really a good mix otherwise.

More likey polyphony came from polyphonic: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=polyphony&searchmode=none

 

[N0t_L3fty]

Why yes it was an attempt at humour. Although I now I notice it should have said (yes realize they should have added an extra 'e'). Guess I should hold on to my day job. I should also never try for a job as a proof reader...

 

[MeanElf]

Why yes it was an attempt at humour. Although I now I notice it should have said (yes realize they should have added an extra 'e'). Guess I should hold on to my day job. I should also never try for a job as a proof reader...

Proof reading is a dire job and no matter how much you check something, an error will definitely appear after you send the document - it's a bit like software testing really.

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

Honestly, If I were kaz, I'd rather listen to a small bunch of "professional" betatesters

Kaz likes to do a lot of things his own way and that's why the franchise is taking a nose dive right now.

giving proper feedback and knowing what they are doing, rather than hundreds of community amateur betatesters saying lots of differnt things and giving all sorts of feedback.

Well apparently those professionals don't know what they're doing/not beta testing enough. There are new bugs discovered almost immediately after literally each and every patch is released.

I don't see the big hoohaa about public beta testing, isn't it pretty much the norm nowadays? I'm certain some games are seeing +1 million beta testers and finding the data and feedback extremely valuable.

 

[Downhill Dino]

Well apparently those professionals don't know what they're doing/not beta testing enough. There are new bugs discovered almost immediately after literally each and every patch is released.

This is the case with just about any game, Polyphony is no different.

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

This is the case with just about any game, Polyphony is no different.

Just about any other game has beta testers can't even notice that sounds disappear when you go online?

 

[Downhill Dino]

My point was that Polyphony isn't the only one that has issues post-update. It is an obvious issue, but in my experiences these obvious bugs happen quite a bit. Developer's testing conditions are probably and usually under perfect conditions at all times.

 

[Johnnypenso]

This is the case with just about any game, Polyphony is no different.

It would follow that the current method of relying on professional beta testers isn't quite as good as it could be so the grand experiment Project Cars is about to unleash on the world has great potential. Thousands of eyes on the game everyday providing feedback means every aspect of an update can be explored in detail, with the professional drivers involved in PCars providing the overall guidance for the physics modelling. Anyone not super stoked about this is crazy.

IMO this would be the greatest thing ever to happen to the development of the GT series were it to come to pass.

 

[TT92]

Honestly, If I were kaz, I'd rather listen to a small bunch of "professional" betatesters, giving proper feedback and knowing what they are doing, rather than hundreds of community amateur betatesters saying lots of differnt things and giving all sorts of feedback.

May I point out that kaz'z "professional betatesters" are not doing a very good job. Also it only takes the community here a matter of minutes to find the latest bugs/glitches/****ups that these "professionals" have missed.

So tell me something, what is the first thing you do when there is an up date? I look at new features and try them and then see if the existing bugs/glitches/****ups have been fixed. Sadly to say I am usually disappointed :-(

I do not claim any expertise as any sort of tester but if a rank amateur and mug like me blindly stumbles on to all sorts things missed by "professionals" then how good are they really?

 

[TT92]

It would follow that the current method of relying on professional beta testers isn't quite as good as it could be so the grand experiment Project Cars is about to unleash on the world has great potential. Thousands of eyes on the game everyday providing feedback means every aspect of an update can be explored in detail, with the professional drivers involved in PCars providing the overall guidance for the physics modelling. Anyone not super stoked about this is crazy.

IMO this would be the greatest thing ever to happen to the development of the GT series were it to come to pass.

My sentiments entirely :-)

Electrical engineers would call this closed loop feedback ;-) If you are playing the game you are in the loop and your feedback is recognised as input. Simple really when you think about it.

 

[Downhill Dino]

May I point out that kaz'z "professional betatesters" are not doing a very good job. Also it only takes the community here a matter of minutes to find the latest bugs/glitches/****ups that these "professionals" have missed.

You can't see something that isn't there. These bugs probably don't show themselves until the update. Once found, they fix it. Although I am sure there are some that haven't been fixed, can't think off the top of my head which ones those are. I'd imagine those are being worked on though.

So tell me something, what is the first thing you do when there is an up date? I look at new features and try them and then see if the existing bugs/glitches/****ups have been fixed. Sadly to say I am usually disappointed :-(

Out of curiosity, which bugs/glitches?

 

[NixxxoN]

Well apparently those professionals don't know what they're doing/not beta testing enough. There are new bugs discovered almost immediately after literally each and every patch is released.

May I point out that kaz'z "professional betatesters" are not doing a very good job. Also it only takes the community here a matter of minutes to find the latest bugs/glitches/****ups that these "professionals" have missed.

So tell me something, what is the first thing you do when there is an up date? I look at new features and try them and then see if the existing bugs/glitches/****ups have been fixed. Sadly to say I am usually disappointed :-(

I do not claim any expertise as any sort of tester but if a rank amateur and mug like me blindly stumbles on to all sorts things missed by "professionals" then how good are they really?

I already said in this thread that PD should fire their current beta-testers and hire proper ones.

Also, no, when theres an update the first thing I do is enjoy the new stuff that the update brings rather than work for free as a betatester

 

[Zuku]

I really hate to be optimistic, but I honestly do think the PS4 will revive the GT series. I'm pretty sure everyone knows that the PS3 has been pushed to its outer limits already. Circuito Sierra is already pushing the boundaries of what the PS3 is capable of and I hope to remain hopeful of GT7 being completely new and revolutionary. You can disagree with me, but I'm pretty sure we can all agree that the PS3 is on its last leg already.

What is this pushing boundaries of PS3 you speak of maybe they pushed their own, but definitely not the PS3. Only reason I say that is looking at other games that have come out before GT6. Oh I don't know maybe GTA V.

Basically short story that craps gets old really fast. I'm having to agree that sending 200-300 members from GTP as @Johnnypenso has stated that would probably been the best thing in the beginning. I'm almost wanting to ask why hasn't PD done this now? Pride?

 

[chengman]

What is this pushing boundaries of PS3 you speak of maybe they pushed their own, but definitely not the PS3. Only reason I say that is looking at other games that have come out before GT6. Oh I don't know maybe GTA V.

Basically short story that craps gets old really fast. I'm having to agree that sending 200-300 members from GTP as @Johnnypenso has stated that would probably been the best thing in the beginning. I'm almost wanting to ask why hasn't PD done this now? Pride?

GTA V doesn't even come near the level of what GT6 has been optimized to do. There's a reason why the PS3 runs so hot on GT6.

The more the better for sure. Not sure PD could organize and collate the input of that many people though. Have you read the release notes that come with every update?

Yep. Maybe 10-20k? A simple Facebook or Google+ beta testing group would be the best way to gather feedback. Better than having a proprietary website that no one will use.

 

[TT92]

You can't see something that isn't there.?

We see them instantly so therefore the testers are not doing their job properly.

These bugs probably don't show themselves until the update.?

See the above comment. This is *their* job!

Once found, they fix it. ?

Can't disagree there except to comment on the time scale. It took them 8 months to fix the online sound and stability issues at Bathurst.

Although I am sure there are some that haven't been fixed, can't think off the top of my head which ones those are. I'd imagine those are being worked on though.?

Update (patch really) 1.13 seems to have fixed most of the sound issues BUT I have had it reported that some people are still being affected.

Out of curiosity, which bugs/glitches?

For me anyway, 1.13 seems to have fixed the current range of issues.

I would also like to take this opportunity to point out that the game is 11 months old and we still do not have all the features that we were promised. Track creator for one is still missing as to are several new tracks.

 

[Zuku]

GTA V doesn't even come near the level of what GT6 has been optimized to do. There's a reason why the PS3 runs so hot on GT6.


Yep. Maybe 10-20k? A simple Facebook or Google+ beta testing group would be the best way to gather feedback. Better than having a proprietary website that no one will use.

You sure about that simply put there are a billion other games that actually push PS3 to it's "REAL" limit GT6 at this point is just pushing in one direction while other games are going in multiple, and it's easier to see GTA V pushing PS3 then it is GT6.

 

[Downhill Dino]

We see them instantly so therefore the testers are not doing their job properly.
...
See the above comment. This is *their* job!

I firmly believe these glitches don't show up prior to the update's public release. Thus the testers don't see them initially.

Can't disagree there except to comment on the time scale. It took them 8 months to fix the online sound and stability issues at Bathurst.

Interestingly I haven't experienced any Bathurst issues minus the Seasonal event for the FT-1 VGT.

 

[TT92]

I firmly believe these glitches don't show up prior to the update's public release. Thus the testers don't see them initially.

I am sure that they thank you very much for apologising for their lack of diligence ;-)

Interestingly I haven't experienced any Bathurst issues minus the Seasonal event for the FT-1 VGT.

As you see I am Australian and Bathurst is our home track. Therefore I and a lot of other Aussies spent a huge amount of time here and were more than well aware of it's initial short comings.

It may have been a regional thing too. They (PD) obviously hate us, they gave us our home track and two of our iconic cars neither of which could race together :-( Note: Before any pendant pulls me up on this, I know there are 3 cars, two of which are just a number of door variation of same so basically two cars. The point being they are in different classes.

Thankfully the track is now fixed.

 

[Imari]

GTA V doesn't even come near the level of what GT6 has been optimized to do. There's a reason why the PS3 runs so hot on GT6.

You seem to think using all the power of the PS3 = using all the CPU/GPU cycles.

Anyone could do that with a Pong simulator running a pi calculator in the background. Simply maxing out the processors is not noteworthy. It's what you can deliver using those fixed numbers of CPU and GPU cycles. It's about efficiency, basically.

Personally, I'm much more impressed with what GTA V delivers (on many levels) than I am with what GT6 does. Half the time GT6 is a GT4 simulator with improved physics. Why is this pushing the PS3 to it's limits again?

 

[chengman]

You seem to think using all the power of the PS3 = using all the CPU/GPU cycles.

Anyone could do that with a Pong simulator running a pi calculator in the background. Simply maxing out the processors is not noteworthy. It's what you can deliver using those fixed numbers of CPU and GPU cycles. It's about efficiency, basically.

Personally, I'm much more impressed with what GTA V delivers (on many levels) than I am with what GT6 does. Half the time GT6 is a GT4 simulator with improved physics. Why is this pushing the PS3 to it's limits again?

As Kaz said in a interview a couple months ago, GT6 has been optimized to the fullest extent in order to run smoothly on the PS3. If it wasn't optimized, it would end up looking like F1 2012 which has graphics that my phone would laugh at.