Severe handling issues in Nations Cup/Manufacturers Series

[Skinny McLean]

Try to apply less steering angle when turning - you are over-doing it (if you can't turn the car properly you're going too fast), most corners can be taken by steering no more than 90° in either direction.

Also, it helps on stability and wear to turn-in gently (not so fast) instead of abruptly.


Edit: And what @kilesa4568 said - though I prefer the cockpit-cam in this case, as it gives a better view of your steering input (-180° to 180° animation instead of the -90° to 90° dot.)

 

[kilesa4568]

Update: If you look at the video posted by the Russian racer on the Facebook Gran Turismo page under the post, Hows your manufacturer series going?, that is an exact replica of how my race went. He had handling issues also.

He didn't have any handling issues, Edd. Bad lines, an on/off throttle and brake application (not smooth at all) so any car sloppiness is self inflicted. If his race is an exact replica of what's happening to you, we can take an educated guess what your problem really is.

though I prefer the cockpit-cam in this case, as it gives a better view of your steering input (-180° to 180° animation instead of the -90° to 90° dot.

The animation isn't very representative of what you're doing with your own wheel and in Edd's case, the animation likely turns a lot more than his wheel can do.

I agree with you about the turn in as it's almost direction button sharp and the red dot would show in real time how fast he's actually turning in. Bumper or bonnet view just makes it easier for me to see.

 

[Edd1982]

He didn't have any handling issues, Edd. Bad lines, an on/off throttle and brake application (not smooth at all) so any car sloppiness is self inflicted. If his race is an exact replica of what's happening to you, we can take an educated guess what your problem really is.



The animation isn't very representative of what you're doing with your own wheel and in Edd's case, the animation likely turns a lot more than his wheel can do.

I agree with you about the turn in as it's almost direction button sharp and the red dot would show in real time how fast he's actually turning in. Bumper or bonnet view just makes it easier for me to see.

I’ll listen to it with the volume a bit louder. The car just looks like a bit of a handful in places. I’ll post a new replay video of my practice session with the accelerator brake steering data etc as its now been explained to me on how to do that.
I’ve watched it properly this time. I had a quick look at lunch break. No. Sorry, this isn’t an exact replica of my race. He’s braking way too late in places, missing apex’s, using the wrong line. I’ll record myself again sometime during a race with tyre wear. Practicing in soft tyres is a world away from racing on soft tyres. Regardless, I’ll post my replay from another view with data on.

 

[kilesa4568]

You're the first person in close to two and half years of the game's life who's had this problem. Honestly, just how much of this could you put down to your own driving technique? I hope I can make this suggestion without it sounding like an insult but have a look at this thread: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/gt-sport-driver-coaching.376368/

I've had a look at your kudosprime page (sorry) and can see you're slowly improving and even proving yourself to be a safe driver in the minefield lower ranks so put your video in that thread (I think it'll be more appropriate than an unproved physics issue) and you'll get a lot of replies packed with hints and tips. Everything I've already said and plenty more besides as you look to be eager to learn but you've got to be honest about your current ability.

(Took me ages to write this to avoid being too critical. It's not meant to be.)

 

[Edd1982]

You're the first person in close to two and half years of the game's life who's had this problem. Honestly, just how much of this could you put down to your own driving technique? I hope I can make this suggestion without it sounding like an insult but have a look at this thread: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/gt-sport-driver-coaching.376368/

I've had a look at your kudosprime page (sorry) and can see you're slowly improving and even proving yourself to be a safe driver in the minefield lower ranks so put your video in that thread (I think it'll be more appropriate than an unproved physics issue) and you'll get a lot of replies packed with hints and tips. Everything I've already said and plenty more besides as you look to be eager to learn but you've got to be honest about your current ability.

(Took me ages to write this to avoid being too critical. It's not meant to be.)

Here is the new video of practice the other day

I just had another go at the Lewis Hamilton lap challenge at Lago Maggiore. I had the perfect 2/3 lap then it went real bad. I was 2 or 3 hundredths behind his time. 0.020 or 0.030. I can drive perfect sometimes but then I get it wrong. I’ll watch my video that I shared to YouTube and see what I did so everything went perfectly because something just clicked and I timed everything accurate. I couldn’t do it again. Im 0.2 off now and almost 1 second behind at the 2/3 point. I bet I’m just getting on the accelerator too early then having to lift to make the corner exit. Thanks.

 

[Skinny McLean]

The animation isn't very representative of what you're doing with your own wheel

Not trying to start an argument here, but - at least on my game - both wheel and dot move in the same way. I.e. the red dot is perfectly aligned and synchronised with the wheel animation. Also, the red dot is visible when in cockpit view (if enabled.)

And hadn't Edd used the cockpit-cam, there'd be no way to tell that he sometimes applies almost 180° steering angle (e.g. when entering the chicane,) which is way too much.

 

[vvise]

Here is the new video of practice the other day

I just had another go at the Lewis Hamilton lap challenge at Lago Maggiore. I had the perfect 2/3 lap then it went real bad. I was 2 or 3 hundredths behind his time. 0.020 or 0.030. I can drive perfect sometimes but then I get it wrong. I’ll watch my video that I shared to YouTube and see what I did so everything went perfectly because something just clicked and I timed everything accurate. I couldn’t do it again. Im 0.2 off now and almost 1 second behind at the 2/3 point. I bet I’m just getting on the accelerator too early then having to lift to make the corner exit. Thanks.

be smoother on your steering input, but especially throttle. For the most part you seem to coast the corner with a little throttle and then you stab it hard to 100%. That will brake traction unless in ideal settings. Roll onto the power, trust me you won't lose time doing this. It will help you be a better driver but it's difficult.

During an FIA race you start the race with very cold tires because of the driver introductions, this will reduce grip (especially noticeable on hard tires, can take a full lap to heat up).
During an FIA race you will have dirty air from the car in front, this will reduce grip.
During an FIA race there will be fuel weight and tire wear, this will reduce grip.
There will be marbles on the track when you're off the main line, this will reduce grip.
If you go off track your tires will be dirty, this will reduce grip significantly for some time.

Keep all the above in mind.

 

[Edd1982]

Thanks for the replies. It has now given me a lot to think about. I love the bit about the sticky rubber marbles deposited off the racing line. I meant to ask about those. If it is the same as in real life like on a kart circuit. Now I know the wet line should work ok in wet races instead of the dry line. I’ll try to turn the steering a little slower and roll on the throttle. Sometimes I do apply way too much throttle before the car is perfectly straight. I can fight the oversteer easily in practice but I can see it wearing tyres should I need to do it too much in a race. I’m having trouble understanding that I’m using too much steering angle? I can’t get my head around it. If I don’t turn enough I can’t see the car turning in enough. What to do then? Slow down a little more before the turn perhaps? And yes. I use trail braking. I’ll make sure I use it more than I currently do. That will help turn the car without having to increase the steering input angle to make the turn. I’ll have to try to turn the wheel so it matches my red dot position on cockpit view. I can post another video on cockpit view to see if my steering inputs match the red dot now I know how to do that.
It probably doesn’t help that my Thrustmaster T80 has less steering angle so my inputs would be exaggerated. I know the race karts are pretty much undriveable. I find myself going from side to side unless I make only the slightest input. I think a G29 is on the cards for the future. Unfortunately I messed up sharing my video where I was, at times, beating Lewis Hamilton’s lap time. I can’t look back at that and see what I did right.
I went to the cut video option then wasn’t sure if I should cut any. I didn’t choose a start point or end point and it looks like the whole video got cut or I did something else wrong because it never turned up on YouTube. Can I find it anywhere on GT Sport again? Bet I can’t. However I was driving then felt perfect and smoother than ever. I don’t know how I did it? It was like someone else was driving. Lol. I won’t trouble you with too many videos and questions. I’ll post it on race faces driving tuition section if that would be best for everyone.

Update:

I just tried turning the steering wheel a little bit less each turn and the car still makes the turn except I’m not turning too much and causing the wheels to turn too much causing understeer sliding. I’m seeing vast differences in my sector times. I’ll be glad when I get a G29 or the likes. Christ on a bike!!!! it’s difficult to gauge steering angle with a wheel this sensitive due to lower dor and no ffb. My time compared to Lewis’s is so intermittent +0.100 then -0.070, + 0.252 etc. There must only be a few degrees difference between a good steering angle and a bad steering angle. I’ve tried and the only way I can judge it is by looking at the time in the screen. I can’t actually physically tell if I’m turning too much or not. I’m done with this wheel!!!! It’s given me better control than a controller but it’s not the right tool I need to be competitive. I’m not going to waste any more hours playing GT Sport until I sell this wheel and maybe my old Logitech DFGT and buy a better tool. I’m just pissing in the wind at the moment. For the amount of time I’ve sat at this rig and my experience in real life on karting circuits and driving Nordschleife etc I should be seeing better results than this. Finally getting somewhere. Thanks!!!!

 

[Edd1982]

Well, here is lasts nights video. I don’t know what YouTube did with it but it vanished for almost 24 hours. Lol. Thought it was tonight’s but no.

 

[breeminator]

There must only be a few degrees difference between a good steering angle and a bad steering angle.

This is what I don't like about GTS's physics, I feel it's very unrealistic. Peak grip seems to occur JUST before you get the understeer effect with a FFB wheel. If you get the understeer effect, your lap is ruined, though the amount of time loss varies with car, some are reasonably tolerant of just getting the understeer effect very mildly. But I can't discern any way to know you're at the point where turning the wheel 1 degree more will trash your lap, the only way I can tell is to listen to the sound of the tyres, and get used to how much to turn the wheel for each corner. Groundfish has said he can feel the point of peak grip, but I've PMd him about his settings, and have tried changing settings based on what he uses, but I haven't found any way to know I'm at the point of peak grip. Forza is different, it works like Scaff's graph of how a real car works, with a peak FFB force, then the force drops off, and peak grip is somewhere a bit past that peak force, so you have much more idea when you're around peak grip, and it isn't on such a knife edge around that point of peak grip.

 

[Edd1982]

This is what I don't like about GTS's physics, I feel it's very unrealistic. Peak grip seems to occur JUST before you get the understeer effect with a FFB wheel. If you get the understeer effect, your lap is ruined, though the amount of time loss varies with car, some are reasonably tolerant of just getting the understeer effect very mildly. But I can't discern any way to know you're at the point where turning the wheel 1 degree more will trash your lap, the only way I can tell is to listen to the sound of the tyres, and get used to how much to turn the wheel for each corner. Groundfish has said he can feel the point of peak grip, but I've PMd him about his settings, and have tried changing settings based on what he uses, but I haven't found any way to know I'm at the point of peak grip. Forza is different, it works like Scaff's graph of how a real car works, with a peak FFB force, then the force drops off, and peak grip is somewhere a bit past that peak force, so you have much more idea when you're around peak grip, and it isn't on such a knife edge around that point of peak grip.

All I know is that when my ass was sat in a racing kart seat, years ago, when I could afford it, it wasn’t this difficult to get a good lap lol!!!

 

[kilesa4568]

Not trying to start an argument here, but - at least on my game - both wheel and dot move in the same way. I.e. the red dot is perfectly aligned and synchronised with the wheel animation. Also, the red dot is visible when in cockpit view (if enabled.)

And hadn't Edd used the cockpit-cam, there'd be no way to tell that he sometimes applies almost 180° steering angle (e.g. when entering the chicane,) which is way too much.

I always thought of the red dot as an indicator of the car's limit of steering. It seems to tie up with under steer when it's hard left or right on the bar anyway. There's also the problem of when I mess about with a bit of over driving in cockpit view though. What I'm doing on my wheel is slightly quicker than the animation and kinda off putting.

Well, here is lasts nights video. I don’t know what YouTube did with it but it vanished for almost 24 hours. Lol. Thought it was tonight’s but no.

Thanks for the video.

You just need a little finesse with your controls and to stop losing time to over driving. This might sound like weird advice but slow down and be more patient with the car. Gently on the throttle and brakes and feed your steering on into the turn in instead of steering too sharply before you've scrubbed enough speed off. Easing off the brakes to keep some weight on the front tires for the turn in.

I'm not 100% sure of this but it looks like you're not looking far enough ahead either. Spot your brake marker in plenty of time, as soon as you hit it, spot your clipping point and from there, line up your exit. Have a look at this:



(Get yourself a FFB wheel as soon as you can. You won't regret it.)

 

[Edd1982]

I always thought of the red dot as an indicator of the car's limit of steering. It seems to tie up with under steer when it's hard left or right on the bar anyway. There's also the problem of when I mess about with a bit of over driving in cockpit view though. What I'm doing on my wheel is slightly quicker than the animation and kinda off putting.



Thanks for the video.

You just need a little finesse with your controls and to stop losing time to over driving. This might sound like weird advice but slow down and be more patient with the car. Gently on the throttle and brakes and feed your steering on into the turn in instead of steering too sharply before you've scrubbed enough speed off. Easing off the brakes to keep some weight on the front tires for the turn in.

I'm not 100% sure of this but it looks like you're not looking far enough ahead either. Spot your brake marker in plenty of time, as soon as you hit it, spot your clipping point and from there, line up your exit. Have a look at this:



(Get yourself a FFB wheel as soon as you can. You won't regret it.)

I understand you perfectly. Thanks for all the advice everyone. If I trail brake, consciously slow down my turn in just a little until the car starts to make the turn, not use too much acceleration mid corner and then line up with the apex and corner properly before getting the throttle back down then my times were better. I was quite often beating Lewis’s time going into corners and then loosing time on corner exits. My weak point is feeding the car out of a corner. I either accelerate too early or too late. I struggle especially on blind corners no matter how far I look ahead.

 

[breeminator]

I just had another go at the Lewis Hamilton lap challenge at Lago Maggiore. I had the perfect 2/3 lap then it went real bad. I was 2 or 3 hundredths behind his time. 0.020 or 0.030. I can drive perfect sometimes but then I get it wrong. I’ll watch my video that I shared to YouTube and see what I did so everything went perfectly because something just clicked and I timed everything accurate. I couldn’t do it again. Im 0.2 off now and almost 1 second behind at the 2/3 point. I bet I’m just getting on the accelerator too early then having to lift to make the corner exit. Thanks.

Beating Lewis on Lago Maggiore needs a lap that is much better than "decent", incidentally. I'm A+ DR and I've only beaten his times on the two easy tracks, Monza and Dragon Trail Seaside. It took me quite a few tries to even get the gold time on Lago Maggiore. If you're close to beating Lewis's time there, I'd say you need to look at other aspects of how you're racing, as well as time trial pace, as you have to be doing other things wrong to only be down around 14k DR with that sort of pace.

Also, the Merc used for the Lewis DLC TTs is different to the BOP Merc used in races, and is particularly horrible for the knife edge effect of steering input between the optimal amount of steering and trashing the lap.

 

[kilesa4568]

I understand you perfectly. Thanks for all the advice everyone. If I trail brake, consciously slow down my turn in just a little until the car starts to make the turn, not use too much acceleration mid corner and then line up with the apex and corner properly before getting the throttle back down then my times were better. I was quite often beating Lewis’s time going into corners and then loosing time on corner exits. My weak point is feeding the car out of a corner. I either accelerate too early or too late.

Forgot to mention that the double cones are an early brake marker in most corners as you can take another 10-20 meters off them when you're more efficient with the braking. The exit is the most important as you want to get the power down at the earliest opportunity but you have to get the corner right to maximize the acceleration zone coming after it.

I struggle especially on blind corners no matter how far I look ahead.

You can't look ahead on a blind corner. It's blind.

I struggle with a blind turn in myself, especially at Tokyo. Visualizing the corner's shape in my head (with its markers) before I take it is my method but I tend to lose a small amount of time from being more cautious with them. I lose a lot less time doing it that way than running the risk of getting it completely wrong though. I'm just not brave enough to fully commit to the perfect line.

 

[Edd1982]

Beating Lewis on Lago Maggiore needs a lap that is much better than "decent", incidentally. I'm A+ DR and I've only beaten his times on the two easy tracks, Monza and Dragon Trail Seaside. It took me quite a few tries to even get the gold time on Lago Maggiore. If you're close to beating Lewis's time there, I'd say you need to look at other aspects of how you're racing, as well as time trial pace, as you have to be doing other things wrong to only be down around 14k DR with that sort of pace.

Also, the Merc used for the Lewis DLC TTs is different to the BOP Merc used in races, and is particularly horrible for the knife edge effect of steering input between the optimal amount of steering and trashing the lap.

My lap at 3.00 minutes is, I think, my best. I was just behind his lap time for most of the lap and up on his lap time by 0.053 at turn 11 and in other places. Then I screw up the exit of turn 11 as it is blind. I’m immediately up to +0.200 as I mess up and take a very straight exit but at a slight wrong angle so I go onto the gravel instead of nicely on to the exit kerb. I make a big lock up under late breaking into the next slow speed corner. Then the rest of my lap is shocking. I’m always down at every corner after this. Eventually crossing the line over 2 seconds behind Lewis. I need to concentrate on that last sector. I think I should keep doing the circuit guides, just repeatedly only on that sector until I show vast improvement. Ive only just started getting consistently better lap times the past day or so, since, with the help of everyone on here I figured out I’m turning my steering wheel too much and scrubbing speed off with the tyres. Tyre wear will be magnified by doing this. I have a Thrustmaster T80 with 190 degrees rotation. I turn the wheel a little bit. T80 multiplies this angle without me realising.... Until now. I turn very slightly less and better lap times. Where does it show I’m at 14k DR level?
Tyre wear, speed loss due to steering angle and finally dive bombers will all help to put me here. I’ve encountered a lot of dive bombers. Some dive bombers perhaps unintentionally because I suddenly scrub off speed whilst cornering from not having force feedback, exaggerated inputs etc.
I’ve been in a pickle for the past 2 months since I started playing this game. I’ve been understanding that turning too much causes understeer but then in practice I go into a corner. I think I have only just steered enough to make that corner. The T80 has exaggerated my movement. I then start sliding and going off apex. I then misleadingly think I haven’t turned enough and turn more. Tyre wear multiplies. Lap times tumble. Thanks.

Forgot to mention that the double cones are an early brake marker in most corners as you can take another 10-20 meters off them when you're more efficient with the braking. The exit is the most important as you want to get the power down at the earliest opportunity but you have to get the corner right to maximize the acceleration zone coming after it.



You can't look ahead on a blind corner. It's blind.

I struggle with a blind turn in myself, especially at Tokyo. Visualizing the corner's shape in my head (with its markers) before I take it is my method but I tend to lose a small amount of time from being more cautious with them. I lose a lot less time doing it that way than running the risk of getting it completely wrong though. I'm just not brave enough to fully commit to the perfect line.

I look as far ahead as I can. It’s difficult when a lot of corners are past 90 degrees or over crests. I’ll try to look ahead slightly earlier. I’d figured out that you can brake after the first cones. Thanks for reply/video!

Sorry admin. I must remember to find out how to use that multi quote feature from the menus.

 

[Groundfish]

This is what I don't like about GTS's physics, I feel it's very unrealistic. Peak grip seems to occur JUST before you get the understeer effect with a FFB wheel. If you get the understeer effect, your lap is ruined, though the amount of time loss varies with car, some are reasonably tolerant of just getting the understeer effect very mildly. But I can't discern any way to know you're at the point where turning the wheel 1 degree more will trash your lap, the only way I can tell is to listen to the sound of the tyres, and get used to how much to turn the wheel for each corner. Groundfish has said he can feel the point of peak grip, but I've PMd him about his settings, and have tried changing settings based on what he uses, but I haven't found any way to know I'm at the point of peak grip. Forza is different, it works like Scaff's graph of how a real car works, with a peak FFB force, then the force drops off, and peak grip is somewhere a bit past that peak force, so you have much more idea when you're around peak grip, and it isn't on such a knife edge around that point of peak grip.

The other thing I was just thinking on this is I run cockpit, so visually there’s more visual feedback about the cars amount of rotation for a given input on pedals and wheel. I think you run cockpit also, just mentioning this.
There’s a lot more information there in cockpit than other views. You see the importance of getting the suspension working like in the aero cars like the Dallar on turn in.
Maybe that’s something that might help someone.
Edit also I’ve never changed ffb settings a long time now, so very used to feedback vs what happens. On GT3 pedal input and braking has to be done well in concert. It’s tough to nail fast laps at the limit. Very tough.
If I try to run any cam like seeing just road or just hood, I get the same effect of no idea what my inputs are doing to the car.
Just kinda occurred to me while reading that that is why I hate the other views-can’t tell what’s happening...
I know we talked before, but this kinda hit me while scanning this thread.

 

[Edd1982]

The other thing I was just thinking on this is I run cockpit, so visually there’s more visual feedback about the cars amount of rotation for a given input on pedals and wheel. I think you run cockpit also, just mentioning this.
There’s a lot more information there in cockpit than other views. You see the importance of getting the suspension working like in the aero cars like the Dallar on turn in.
Maybe that’s something that might help someone.
Edit also I’ve never changed ffb settings a long time now, so very used to feedback vs what happens. On GT3 pedal input and braking has to be done well in concert. It’s tough to nail fast laps at the limit. Very tough.
If I try to run any cam like seeing just road or just hood, I get the same effect of no idea what my inputs are doing to the car.
Just kinda occurred to me while reading that that is why I hate the other views-can’t tell what’s happening...
I know we talked before, but this kinda hit me while scanning this thread.

I always use bonnet view. I tried cockpit view and find my view seems to be restricted as I don’t have virtual and can’t see left or right. I’ve played around with ffb settings on my Logitech driving force GT. I think I will revert back to GT5 and 6 for a while and practice with driving aids off. Only until I sell some stuff and buy a G29, T150. Thanks.

 

[Groundfish]

The only other thing I can add is pretty much in stiffer sprung racecars, the best grip comes from compressing the suspension under braking, coming off brake at the best rate for the turn, and winding steering in smoothly progressively to maximum wind at apex and letting it unwind after.
Having to make corrections upsets the car some.

 

[breeminator]

Where does it show I’m at 14k DR level?

I think this is you from the video in post 35?
https://www.kudosprime.com/gts/stats.php?profile=10880301

If you can get consistent at lapping close to your best time every time, you should have no difficulty getting to a much higher DR.

 

[bduddy]

This is what I don't like about GTS's physics, I feel it's very unrealistic. Peak grip seems to occur JUST before you get the understeer effect with a FFB wheel. If you get the understeer effect, your lap is ruined, though the amount of time loss varies with car, some are reasonably tolerant of just getting the understeer effect very mildly. But I can't discern any way to know you're at the point where turning the wheel 1 degree more will trash your lap, the only way I can tell is to listen to the sound of the tyres, and get used to how much to turn the wheel for each corner. Groundfish has said he can feel the point of peak grip, but I've PMd him about his settings, and have tried changing settings based on what he uses, but I haven't found any way to know I'm at the point of peak grip. Forza is different, it works like Scaff's graph of how a real car works, with a peak FFB force, then the force drops off, and peak grip is somewhere a bit past that peak force, so you have much more idea when you're around peak grip, and it isn't on such a knife edge around that point of peak grip.

A lot of sims have this issue. You either have the grip, and you're great, or you're in slide mode and you're ****ed.

 

[kilesa4568]

It’s difficult when a lot of corners are past 90 degrees or over crests.

The 3 steps I mentioned breaks the corner down so that you don't need to see around them, only each part and plenty of practice drills the corner's profile into your head. All about rinsing and repeating those 3 steps as well as you can to limit lost time to mistakes. Your consistency will go through the roof along with quicker more controlled lap times. Anyway, you'll get there. You just need to back off a touch and be less heavy handed with the car.👍