Shokunins: One person, one car - crusading rant about the S1 Elise

[sik180sx]

Comfort Soft grips better when they are warm in GT6, and now comfort tires has more grip overall than in GT5. I can even drive hard on comfort soft fitted on a 600HP Venom Viper GTS replica

I too drive everything with comfort tyres and no abs:tup:but i still gotta say they are sport hards.they honestly are so grippy it will leave you amazed Especially once you've pushed some es100 and s-drives(top of yoko's street tyre range)to the limit,and my goodness do they grip.

But the ao48,ad08 they are on another level but all good mate we will agree to disagree haha​

 

[Buck-O]

I don't think we're disagreeing... I was just saying that it's unusual for a modern Euro-designed car to have a light that's separate from the cluster. I went on to speculate that it's a nice retro touch, I presume it's the same on the VX220 derivatives?

EDIT: No, only on the Elise... the GM VX220 (Vauxhall, Opel) had the Fog in the cluster. Much better, I'd want my light a LOT higher than the Elise has it if I was on the motorway!!

It not unusual at all. There are plenty of cars that have individual fog lamps, that are not integrated with the rear tail lamp assembly.
For many manufactures, incorporating into the tail light assembly means they have to have a bespoke tail light assembly just for one region. Some car companies like Mercedes, just say screw it and do it anyway. Others, prefer to use one universal standard tail light assembly for all regions, and simply replace one of the reverse lights, on the bumper or trunk, with a red fog indicator lamp. It is cheaper that way, and in some areas, even required.

But to say that it is unusual, is really a misnomer. Until recently, Audi had the split reverse/fog lamps for the UK. In the US both were reverse. Heck, even the multi million dollar Aston Martin One-77, has a separate reverse and fog lamp in the same cluster. Likewise, the Elise has a fog, and a reverse lamp.

Anecdotal evidence of a European market only Elise based car, means little to what other manufactures do to meet safety regulations for their indicator lamps. Its simply cheaper and easier to use a separate lamp.


And i can assure you, the fog lamp on the Elise is plenty visible on the road way. Its higher up than you think.
Though, it should be noted that on the later Elise models, it was incorparated into one half of the rear brake light.

 

[Troggy]

The

I've been thinking about this for a while now and I suspect there are probably others with similar observations, so I thought I would document my feedback on the Series 1 Lotus Elise and I'd like to hear about others, hopefully someone might point these things out to the modellers at Polyphony and maybe some things could be made more efficient and some things could be fixed.

Here's the background that triggered this thread:




So let's look at one car and it's derivatives:

Lotus Elise '96:

From the front, looks pretty accurate, the only obvious thing missing is the hole for the tow hook in the centre of the front grill.

From the rear:

looking very good, except the space for the numberplate is too large and inside the rear grills there should be one rectangular red reflector and one white reverse light.

The real thing for comparison:

Rear tyres of the Racing Elise:

So Yokohama are supposed to be partners, in GT6 you can choose the Yokohama Sports Medium Tyre which they actually make an OEM version for the Elise, an A048, of which you can see the tread pattern in the real image... why when this tyre is fitted to the car or as standard on the racing Elise, even though the preview when you purchase the tyre shows the right tread pattern, the car still has the Yokohama Comfort Tyre Tread Pattern?

I'm not sure why they did the cutouts and other things to the racing version, there are plenty of real world aero for an Elise, wings, diffusers, scoops, splitters, instead they make up some fantasy body kit:

They have replaced the front with that from the Exige, or Motorsport Elise and added carbon fibre canards.

Here you can see the tow hook. You can also see the factory options of driving lights, headlight covers and wheels that you should be able to add to the base model... but can't.

Note the clips on the bonnet, the Elise was designed right from the start, so the bonnet opens from the windscreen side and these clips are incorrectly placed at the hinge, meaning they would most likely break off when you pop the bonnet:

Sport 190 Elise:

This is a standard model, even though the Shokunin has already modelled all the differences from the premium Elise including the roll cage shown, headlight covers and driving lights on the premium Racing Elise.

It's hard to see from this angle, but unlike the premium models, they put the rear vision mirror in the centre, this is the wrong place and this is even stated in the manual of the car.

Why can't I put the Racing Elise wheels on this or the base model Elise?

If they added a decal, new wheels and a little spoiler, you would have another model, the Elise Sport 160:

Even if they didn't have this as another model, you should be able to add the OEM spoiler and wheels.

The Motorsport Elise:

This is a standard model again, and even though they already modelled the front, doors, inside and most of the roof, all they did for GT6 was make the Lotus Sport Decals higher resolution.

Yet again the attention to detail is lacking as they missed the feature that they even had in the text about the car in GT2 - the central driving position:

Once you've modelled the Motorsport Elise, all you have to do is make the rear cover perspex and move the driving position back and you have another model, a Lotus Exige:

Maybe I'm being picky, but if I was given one car to model I'm pretty sure I would notice these things, or at least fix them if someone pointed them out to me.

The shokunin quote was referring to vision gt cars. Not regular cars. It has 0 relevance to any version of the Elise.

 

[LVracerGT]

The

The shokunin quote was referring to vision gt cars. Not regular cars. It has 0 relevance to any version of the Elise.

Do you have proof to back that up? I'm pretty sure he was referring to all GT cars not just the Vision GT cars.

 

[TenEightyOne]

The

The shokunin quote was referring to vision gt cars. Not regular cars. It has 0 relevance to any version of the Elise.

So I thought too, but the interview seems to suggest otherwise. It seems unlikely in a practical age of multi-instance information that you'd expect one modeller to be responsible for the entire product.

 

[LVracerGT]

• Kaz says that he insists on the "One person, one car" policy, in which every single car must be modelled by one person only, from top to bottom, so that each staff member can reflect the qualities of Shokunins (職人), which is closely defined as "Craftsman" or "artisan" in English.

Unless every single car are VGT cars (obviously not) I believe he's talking about all GT cars. In which case I stand by my earlier comment.

While a respect their beliefs and having one person to model one car for craftsmanship, IMO it's causing a lot of mistakes and slowing down the development process. The premium Mustang GT in GT5 is a perfect example. That car was horridly messed up. Wrong trans/gearing, wrong weight distribution, etc. The mistakes are continuing into GT6 as well.

This could also explain why we even have standards in the first place. If they had done things more efficiently, all the cars could have been modeled equally with interiors for everything (possibly).

Again, I respect their beliefs and customs, but IMO they need to get with the times. Just another example of poor development choices, IMO.

 

[Troggy]

• Kaz says that he insists on the "One person, one car" policy, in which every single car must be modelled by one person only, from top to bottom, so that each staff member can reflect the qualities of Shokunins (職人), which is closely defined as "Craftsman" or "artisan" in English.

Unless every single car are VGT cars (obviously not) I believe he's talking about all GT cars. In which case I stand by my earlier comment.

I guess my brain gave them the benefit of the doubt. I never would have thought they would implement such an absurd policy for every car in the game. I think Japanese game developers live in 1988.

 

[dbarrade]

IMHO, YH A048 is equal to comfort soft in GT6

With regards to grip, your statement may be correct... my real tyres are rated Medium front and Medium Hard at the rear, I have yet to do any precise comparisons between grip levels, but in previous Gran Turismo's I found that the Lateral grip was too low and the acceleration / deceleration grip was too high with Comfort Softs, so it seemed impossible to get a correct feeling tyre. Another contributing factor was brake bias, at least in GT5, maybe GT6 when you increase the Brake setting to 10 it also increased the tyre traction in all directions so you were able to corner faster, this is totally unrelated to braking, and a lazy physics hack imho.

My comment was about the tread pattern shown... just the way the tyres look, in the preview in GT Auto Shop and then when they are put on the car. I was trying to show this with a photo, clearly I would have to upload a video to show the physics... maybe that is the next thing to do

@Raggi Boy I can't confess to know that much about other cars... which was why I asked others to point out things like this about the cars that they love.

 

[TenEightyOne]

For many manufactures, incorporating into the tail light assembly means they have to have a bespoke tail light assembly just for one region. Some car companies like Mercedes, just say screw it and do it anyway. Others, prefer to use one universal standard tail light assembly for all regions, and simply replace one of the reverse lights, on the bumper or trunk, with a red fog indicator lamp. It is cheaper that way, and in some areas, even required.

But to say that it is unusual... even the multi million dollar Aston Martin One-77, has a separate reverse and fog lamp in the same cluster. Likewise, the Elise has a fog, and a reverse lamp.

Anecdotal evidence of a European market only Elise based car, means little to what other manufactures do to meet safety regulations for their indicator lamps. Its simply cheaper and easier to use a separate lamp.


And i can assure you, the fog lamp on the Elise is plenty visible on the road way. Its higher up than you think.
Though, it should be noted that on the later Elise models, it was incorparated into one half of the rear brake light.

I disagree strongly about the effectiveness of the Elise's lights in general - particularly when behind a MkI in fog, and that's based on thousands of miles crossing the Pennines. I know about fog alright

I'm not sure what you mean about the Aston - is the fog in the cluster or not? A fog would normally have its place in at least one cluster (more than 10cm from a stop lamp, in Europe).

Interestingly American-standard brake lamps aren't legal for use in Europe, far too bright

 

[Mikeyb13]

My concern with the Elise S1 is not the way it looks, it's that it handles nothing like it does in real life. Constant unpredictable oversteer no matter how I set it up, I have a track prepared S1 and it drives nothing like this.