Shooting at Empire State Building.
- Thread starter photonrider
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Strittan
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- Strittan
Of course people would kill each other, they always have. But I believe that the problems wouldn't be as huge they are today.Surely you can't be serious. You think that if firearms were never invented then people would never have the urge to kill each other? Do you also wish that forks were never invented so people wouldn't get fat?
Just astounding...
So, you think it's a good invention then? Why?
Not as dangerous as modern firearms, are they? I could do without them as well though, if that's what you wanna hear.
- 1,139
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- BJBEOSmitty
14. FOURTEEN!!! Is this confirmed? (non-yahoo)
- 7,436
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- photonrider
The moral, legal and physical existence of projectile weapons, or even their purchase, care, and maintenance, is not the core topic of this discussion - I believe there must be at least a dozen threads spread around this Forum addressing such issues.
The what that was used is not our first point of interest - would one rather have nerve gas being dispersed? We hope that 20 years from now we wont be visiting this Forum to discuss that what that was used was such. Guns, presently, are easier to access than a bomb or WMD for those expressing whatever repression they want to call attention to. As I said; there are plenty of threads to debate the various slices of the gun-debate pie.
More importantly, with regards to this incident, is the why?.
This is not so much another shooting spectacle as an incident that is part of our present now and will impact the future - so the lessons need be extracted - and that is why the WHY? is important.
There are several hypotheses and conspiracy theories floating around; some of us may have already heard these.
The Where? is important - this is a venue that is usually filled with with tourists. Not just Americans. And if youre Sleepless in Seattle because of your personal Love Affair, the venue is of more interest to you; you may want to visit one day.
When? This morning - in case one already hasnt heard.
How? That is what we want to learn more of.
Who? Yes. Who?
So - Who? Why? How? This is what we want to discuss, and maybe something fruitful may come to light that will enable us to better understand this situation. And its impact on the future.
Thanks for all the updated links - for the sake of posterity I will leave the OP unchanged so we can track how this story evolves.
Cheers,
Harry.
The what that was used is not our first point of interest - would one rather have nerve gas being dispersed? We hope that 20 years from now we wont be visiting this Forum to discuss that what that was used was such. Guns, presently, are easier to access than a bomb or WMD for those expressing whatever repression they want to call attention to. As I said; there are plenty of threads to debate the various slices of the gun-debate pie.
More importantly, with regards to this incident, is the why?.
This is not so much another shooting spectacle as an incident that is part of our present now and will impact the future - so the lessons need be extracted - and that is why the WHY? is important.
There are several hypotheses and conspiracy theories floating around; some of us may have already heard these.
The Where? is important - this is a venue that is usually filled with with tourists. Not just Americans. And if youre Sleepless in Seattle because of your personal Love Affair, the venue is of more interest to you; you may want to visit one day.
When? This morning - in case one already hasnt heard.
How? That is what we want to learn more of.
Who? Yes. Who?
So - Who? Why? How? This is what we want to discuss, and maybe something fruitful may come to light that will enable us to better understand this situation. And its impact on the future.
Thanks for all the updated links - for the sake of posterity I will leave the OP unchanged so we can track how this story evolves.
Cheers,
Harry.
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- Zenith113
The civilians hit count has been lowered to 9. That's still quite a lot.
http://www.policeone.com/officer-shootings/articles/5931466-Civilians-struck-by-police-gunfire-highlight-dangers/
http://www.policeone.com/officer-shootings/articles/5931466-Civilians-struck-by-police-gunfire-highlight-dangers/
- 3,043
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- MarcoM1972
No, that's how things go on this forum, immediate repression of opinions.
On topic, disturbed working relationships apparently can be very dangereous. It starts with small things and can grow into something big over time. Sad thing really.
Work is sometimes considered too important. I know that in the challangeing world we live in, achievements are for many people a goal in itself.
I think less competition would be good to improve the atmosphere and thus less frustrations.
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Keef
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Bows are often used to kill bucks, a much larger, heavier, and tougher animal than any average human. Spears have been used to kill wooly mammoths in the past. Atlatls were even more effective at killing some of the largest mammals to ever walk the earth. A 9mm pistol would penetrate but a few inches into a modern-day elephant, not even through the fatty tissue. To kill an elephant you'd need a .50-calbier or larger hunting/sniper rifle to penetrate to any vital organs.
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- photonrider
I've heard that a boy with a slingshot brought a giant down with a pebble, and changed the course of history. Wiki wasn't around so I don't know how true that is.
Here is Yahoo News' latest take on the incident:
The New York Police Department released surveillance video showing the moment two officers opened fire on a man who had just gunned down a former work acquaintance in front of the Empire State Building.
Police said Jeffrey Johnson shot Steven Ercolino, a former co-worker, on Friday and then stood over his prone body, pumping more bullets into him.
With his weapon in a black bag, Johnson made his way up Fifth Avenue, where his dramatic and deadly confrontation with officers was captured on surveillance tape.
The 58-year-old former fashion designer turned his gun on the officers who were standing eight feet away from him, however it appeared to have jammed, police said.
Johnson was killed by a hail of police gunfire as bystanders ran through the streets, trying to escape the shooting.
At least nine people were wounded, likely by police bullets or flying shards from planters that were hit, police said.
Witness George King told ABC News he watched several people around him struck by bullets.
"I heard multiple gunshots, I'd say about 12 of them," he said. "I thought they were firecrackers, at first. I didn't know what was going on. Everyone started running for cover along with me. The girl that was running next to me fell down to the pavement and, when I looked at her, I could see she had been hit in the leg. She was bleeding from the leg.
"I noticed about five people who had been struck on the sidewalk or the street," he said.
The saga unfolded shortly after 9 a.m. on Friday in New York's bustling Midtown area.
Johnson was lurking outside a building adjacent to the Empire State Building, ABC News station WABC-TV in New York reported.
The building housed Hazan Imports Corp., which had once contracted with Johnson to design T-shirts, police told WABC.
Johnson's relationship with the company ended bitterly a year ago in a dispute with the company's account executive, Steven Ercolino, 41, police said.
A friend of Ercolino's who witnessed the shooting told police that she noticed Johnson, who was wearing a suit and carrying a black bag, outside the building. She saw him walk up to Ercolino and without saying a word, fire five times at the victim and keep firing as Ercolino slumped to the ground, police told WABC.
Ercolino's father said he was heartbroken.
"Steven was a wonderful son. He was very good son and person," Frank Ercolino of Warwick, N.Y., told ABC News.
Johnson calmly walked away from the shooting, the witness told police, but New York Police Commissioner Ray Kelly said he was followed by a construction worker.
The worker alerted two New York Police Department officers, who confronted Johnson.
Police told WABC that Johnson legally bought his gun in Sarasota, Fla., in 1991. He illegally brought it to New York City, which has strict gun laws.
Latest news on the TV has it that 3 of the wounded were struck by police bullets, the rest from shards of debris from riccochets. The media has been flooded with images from the scene - one bystander interviewed on TV said that hundreds of people were filming the event.
Because this 'Gunfight at OK Corral' spanned several blocks, the incident is also being dubbed 'The Times Square shooting.'
The Colorado shooter, it's now known, displayed signs of wanting to go out on a killing spree, weeks before it actually happened.
The Times Square shooter, likewise, had displayed many signs of aggressiveness over the year before he actually pulled a gun - a gun which was illegal anyway in the city he used it in.
This teaches us that such warning signs shouldn't be ignored; we are our brother's keeper - if only for our own safety and well-being.
Could this man have been taken down in a more subtle way? Videos show clumps of bystanders just yards away from the shooting.
Where is the boy with the slingshot when one really needs him?
Here is Yahoo News' latest take on the incident:
The New York Police Department released surveillance video showing the moment two officers opened fire on a man who had just gunned down a former work acquaintance in front of the Empire State Building.
Police said Jeffrey Johnson shot Steven Ercolino, a former co-worker, on Friday and then stood over his prone body, pumping more bullets into him.
With his weapon in a black bag, Johnson made his way up Fifth Avenue, where his dramatic and deadly confrontation with officers was captured on surveillance tape.
The 58-year-old former fashion designer turned his gun on the officers who were standing eight feet away from him, however it appeared to have jammed, police said.
Johnson was killed by a hail of police gunfire as bystanders ran through the streets, trying to escape the shooting.
At least nine people were wounded, likely by police bullets or flying shards from planters that were hit, police said.
Witness George King told ABC News he watched several people around him struck by bullets.
"I heard multiple gunshots, I'd say about 12 of them," he said. "I thought they were firecrackers, at first. I didn't know what was going on. Everyone started running for cover along with me. The girl that was running next to me fell down to the pavement and, when I looked at her, I could see she had been hit in the leg. She was bleeding from the leg.
"I noticed about five people who had been struck on the sidewalk or the street," he said.
The saga unfolded shortly after 9 a.m. on Friday in New York's bustling Midtown area.
Johnson was lurking outside a building adjacent to the Empire State Building, ABC News station WABC-TV in New York reported.
The building housed Hazan Imports Corp., which had once contracted with Johnson to design T-shirts, police told WABC.
Johnson's relationship with the company ended bitterly a year ago in a dispute with the company's account executive, Steven Ercolino, 41, police said.
A friend of Ercolino's who witnessed the shooting told police that she noticed Johnson, who was wearing a suit and carrying a black bag, outside the building. She saw him walk up to Ercolino and without saying a word, fire five times at the victim and keep firing as Ercolino slumped to the ground, police told WABC.
Ercolino's father said he was heartbroken.
"Steven was a wonderful son. He was very good son and person," Frank Ercolino of Warwick, N.Y., told ABC News.
Johnson calmly walked away from the shooting, the witness told police, but New York Police Commissioner Ray Kelly said he was followed by a construction worker.
The worker alerted two New York Police Department officers, who confronted Johnson.
Police told WABC that Johnson legally bought his gun in Sarasota, Fla., in 1991. He illegally brought it to New York City, which has strict gun laws.
Latest news on the TV has it that 3 of the wounded were struck by police bullets, the rest from shards of debris from riccochets. The media has been flooded with images from the scene - one bystander interviewed on TV said that hundreds of people were filming the event.
Because this 'Gunfight at OK Corral' spanned several blocks, the incident is also being dubbed 'The Times Square shooting.'
The Colorado shooter, it's now known, displayed signs of wanting to go out on a killing spree, weeks before it actually happened.
The Times Square shooter, likewise, had displayed many signs of aggressiveness over the year before he actually pulled a gun - a gun which was illegal anyway in the city he used it in.
This teaches us that such warning signs shouldn't be ignored; we are our brother's keeper - if only for our own safety and well-being.
Could this man have been taken down in a more subtle way? Videos show clumps of bystanders just yards away from the shooting.
Where is the boy with the slingshot when one really needs him?
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- 38,956
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And all of them shot by the po'-lice. http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/25/justice/new-york-empire-state-shooting/index.html
- 4,543
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- Zenith113
Assuming firearms are still on-topic.
The firearm is neither a good invention nor a bad invention. It is a tool.
Is a hammer a good invention? You might say so when it is used to construct a building. How about when it is used in crime to bash someone's skull in?
The good and evil in a firearm is only the person with their finger on the trigger. The good and evil in a hammer is the person who wields it. A hammer uses momentum and leverage to apply a concentrated force onto an object. The firearm does the job Famine defined earlier. It hurls a small object at great speeds. For both the hammer and firearm, the rest is up to the user.
Mass killings and killings in general would be just as often and just as effective. You know what else is capable of killing many people in a short period of time? A car. A kitchen knife. A club. A plane. A bomb. Are these now "bad" inventions?
I digress. The idea that a firearm (or basically anything) is a "bad" invention is just wrong.
- 26,628
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- a6m5zero
That would be the classic political move. Don't make the tough decision that would benefit the public, just go along with the anti-gun media and overreact.
Absolutely not true. It's like saying military is created for just one purpose. You could say that they are created for the sole purpose of assault, but they are also created for defensive purposes. Most Americans, I think they just buy firearms as a deterrent. I don't believe that most of them acquire firearms with the intention of shooting anyone. There are millions of firearms belonging to the civilians in the U.S. Obviously, most of those guns are just being stored, or used for target practices.
I'm from Japan, and I did not understand it until I actually understood the culture here. I am for gun control, but it just would not work in this country, because the nation is built on the promise of the civilians being able to arm themselves. Not just against crimes, but also in case of defending the nation from external, or even internal threat.
I agree with much of this. Not all of it, because of two things: 1) This country needs to improve the driving training & testing first.
Seriously, gun issue is a non-issue compared to how ignorant & incapable so many of the drivers are in this country. 2) I do believe that firearm ownership, or practice of concealed carry would keep that particular family safer. If I was carrying a firearm, witness mugging or something, or in a situation of self-defense, if I didn't have the guts to shoot my gun, I'd be totally at peace with that decision. At least I had the option to use it.
True about the debts(as also true in much of the world), but I thought neighborhood/ghetto condition were much improved from decade(s) ago? I know that I feel safer around bad neighborhood today than back in the 90's......
To me, ****-hole is where people around me can't afford to eat. They don't have nicer things, or can't afford to go to school. Not quite the place even the biggest losers have a car, and keep feeding themselves until they physically can't eat anymore. And you won't be denied basic education. In fact, they will involve the authority for not attending. Hopes & dreams are definitely tougher to come by, but I thought that was true in much of the world.
I don't know if it's a ****-hole compare to Canada, but personally, I'm down with this country.
There are people who actually believe that.
Just like us, the Japanese people. We still resent the Einstein, and other physicists, definitely not Tojo, or Harry Truman, who actually triggered the bomb being dropped. 
<<< 100% sarcasmThis should be our focus with a incident like this. Every time. These people freaking out about gun control, every time there is public shooting like this, they must have selective attention watching the news or something. Bombing, Bombing, Bombing. Bomb-bomb-bomb bomb-bomb-bomb-bomb! If you can't have guns, if you want to kill tons of people, that's what the crazies use, and you can make them right from the comfort of your own home.
It is almost always about the "why".
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- GTP_Tyrrell
Not banned outright, obviously, although there are strict rules on carrying them in public and purchasing them.
I would say the law in the UK regarding knives is more or less spot on. Basically you aren't allowed to carry any knife in public without good reason and "offensive" knives such as switchblades are banned from public altogether. Under 18 year olds are banned from purchasing any knives. Fair enough really.
Strittan
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- Strittan
A pretty poor comparison I think. A hammer is a very good tool when constructing a building, and happens to work when bashing someone's skull in as well. A gun is a very good tool to kill someone with, but not so great when constructing a building.
Agreed. 👍
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- 7,436
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- photonrider
This is what is at the crux of the right-to-bear-arms debate. A well-armed militia was mandatory at the time that amendment was needed - one never knew when the colonists would return to take back a state or two, maybe even more. It was like the whole country had better be armed and waiting . . . just in case. The colonists never came back. The militia mentality never went away, having already deeply mutated the socio-political DNA of the country.
In direct relation to this incident though (do the gunlovers/gunhaters even know anything about the shooter's shooter?) the fact of whether guns should be legal or not is moot; the gun was brought into play illegally. No amount of gun-control would have prevented that. In the words of former mayor Rudy Giuliani who mentioned the Norway massacre as an example to Piers Morgan during an interview: "Gun control is not going to prevent this."
Couldn't have been more simply put.
Closer tpo the heart of the discussion in this thread is the method of taking down the shooter:
One of our local policeman was of the opinion that he would have done the same - a quick high-risk take-down, instead of a negotiation. He says that they are trained to do that; if it is in a crowded location then a man with a gun has no chance but to get shot dead. Quick. He added that if it was in a lonely location, for instance a deserted parking lot, they would actually try to talk him down (even at risk to themselves) before even before drawing their guns. Another one told me that he hasn't pulled his gun in eighteen years of service.
Drawing a firearm apparently gives them a nightmare they like to avoid at all costs - paperwork.
According to the usual sources . . . it's back to business as usual at the top of the Empire State building. Lots of kissing.
Well, better that, than bullets.
hogger129
(Banned)
- 691
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+1
Firearms are mostly illegal in Australia and the UK and their crime rates are out of control. I heard somewhere that Australia had a 300% increase in crime rate after most guns were made illegal there.
I don't think more gun controls/laws are going to do a thing. This happened in New York, which already has harsh restrictions on guns. Chicago has a really high crime rate too. But if you come north of the border here to Wisconsin, we don't have unusually high crime rates and we have some of the most lenient gun laws in the country.
Our country was founded with the idea that the common man should be able to defend himself against criminals, whether they are just out on the street, or in political office and I'm not about to take away or limit that freedom just because some people are afraid, or because some people misuse it. It's just not that simple.
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- 11,660
- GTP_Orido
For collections and competition, besides hunting of course. As for myself, I love the sound that gun made and their shape, every time I watch movies or play games with guns firing in it, I cranked up the volume just for the sheer joy of it, when guns get cocked, the magazine replaced, the noise ..... I am such a gun whore. If I have the means, I would be an avid gun collector, firing rounds everyday at shooting range, enjoying myself.
hogger129
(Banned)
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All I'm going to say is this - Second Amendment. Also, self-defense has always been human nature, not just a right protected by the United States Constitution or some set of laws.
If you don't like it, then don't buy a gun. I'm not going to get into one of these "Holier Than Thou" arguments because people have an opposing political opinion.
It gets expensive.
If you don't like it, then don't buy a gun. I'm not going to get into one of these "Holier Than Thou" arguments because people have an opposing political opinion.
It gets expensive.
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Strittan
Premium
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- Strittan
I think you neither misused them nor used it correctly. A bloke who decides to blow someone's head out using one doesn't misuse it either, does he? It's illegal, yes, but the gun does what the guy firing it wants it to do.Famine
That they're not comparable objects to begin with.BobK
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- 7,624
- Exorcet
- OE Exorcet
For four years, once a week, they provided me with some afternoon fun. I never once shot at or hit a living creature besides bacteria that would be everywhere.
They also serve as deterrents. Ever seen a cop point a gun at someone and force that person to surrender without violence?
Guns have a variety of purposes beyond killing, and they've saved lives. Would there have been less death had they never been invented? I guess there is a slim chance of that, but I would say probably not.
Guns are better than hammers for killing food, self defense, competitive shooting, and deterrence vs other hammer like weapons. They also happen to work on innocent people too.
Why not?
Strittan
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And I think there would, but we'll never know. Also, they've probably not saved as many lives as they've takenExorcet
Exactly.Exorcet
Ok, they are.Exorcet
A hammer is great when it's used to hammer a nail into a wooden material. A gun is not.
A gun is great when it's used to fire a bullet. A hammer is not.
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