Should PD place some emphasis on classic cars?

[niky]

Slow cars require "skill"... just ask Fangio...

Old Formula racers would be a fantastic addition to Gran Turismo... great speed... absolutely no grip...

 

[Heath_1]

OI you Aussies.. how come no one's mentioned this?

Peter Brock's first car (Austin 7). Although not very powerful or fast, certainly faster than Daimler Motor Carriage. alot of Holden fan's and Peter Brock fans like myself would love to see this.

 

[Spec M]

^ Baby Austin! Nice find! 👍

 

[Dan_]

I think that PD should make an online survey in the PSN to let the fans choose a new car to be included in the game ( or a half dozen cars..), then, they put it in the game, and start over a new survey to define the car to be added in the next month, or the next two months....

I'm sure that most of these paleolithic-era racing cars would be included...

But, they must have power enough to climb the first hill on the begining of the green hell, i've tried many times and i can't even start a lap in the ring with the daimler 1hp thing....

 

[Raitziger]

We all love speed so emphasis should be on classic sports cars.(yes daimler motor 1hp is not one )

 

[Heath_1]

those Daimlers are pointless and hopeless. theres weak cars that are fun to a certain extent like the Subaru 360 and 1970 Celica.. then theres those.

 

[Rusty*]

nice find Heath! Brock loved driving even froma young age, no matter what wheels it was.
R*

 

[Antti-san]

theres weak cars that are fun to a certain extent like the Subaru 360 and 1970 Celica..

Come on, those two are not even remotely similar.

 

[Leadfoot53]

one problem I can think of is this:
The classic cars could not be represented properly in the game. They were a heck of a lot different than the 3-pedal and stick shift setup we have nowadays. Those cars were a lot harder to drive...

 

[Spec M]

Depends on which cars you're referring to.
True some may have been harder to drive but some may be easier to drive compared to todays standards.
Theres not many current cars that have 2 speed gear boxes.

 

[niky]

I doubt anyone who has driven a classic sports car would agree with that statement.

Unassisted steering... unassisted brakes... drum brakes, at that, or friction brakes... almost no grip... few cars with synchromesh transmissions... poor suspension travel (and compliance)... sometimes infinite camber change over bumps (can anyone say "swing axle"?).

Any car is "easy" to drive toddling along... but at modern speeds... say... 60 mph... many classic cars are a nerve-wracking experience to drive for the unwary.

You see many classic racing cars going sideways in videos. They don't go sideways for drift points. They go sideways because they have no grip. Sure, the speed at which they lose grip may seem pitiful compared to modern sportscars, but you don't have to be going very fast in one to die... and many racers did meet their end on the racetrack.

 

[Spec M]

Unassisted steering... unassisted brakes... drum brakes, at that, or friction brakes... almost no grip... few cars with synchromesh transmissions... poor suspension travel

Ok, their's cars being raced in the present day that share those simularities, I don't understand your point.

Any car is "easy" to drive toddling along... but at modern speeds... say... 60 mph... many classic cars are a nerve-wracking experience to drive for the unwary.

^

Depends on which cars you're referring to.

Again. A 1987 GNX is a "classic", and it can handle speeds way beyond 60mph, and its quite stable at highway speeds, not "nerve-wracking".

You see many classic racing cars going sideways in videos.

No not really, motion capture or "videos" weren't too common in the first couple decades of the 20th century, which is the automotive era we're refering to. 👍

They don't go sideways for drift points. They go sideways because they have no grip.

I think we've all established that.

Sure, the speed at which they lose grip may seem pitiful compared to modern sportscars, but you don't have to be going very fast in one to die... and many racers did meet their end on the racetrack.

You're again stating the obvious... Drivers have died in modern racecars... I don't 'think' there will be any dying or other violence in GT5... So again i'm missing your point here.

 

[Leadfoot53]

Depends on which cars you're referring to.
True some may have been harder to drive but some may be easier to drive compared to todays standards.
Theres not many current cars that have 2 speed gear boxes.

What I am talking about is they had a completely different driving mechanic system. Take the Ford Model T for example. It is nothing like the standard driving system used in today's cars... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxb5...7EA9A129&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=35

 

[Spec M]

What I am talking about is they had a completely different driving mechanic system. Take the Ford Model T for example. It is nothing like the standard driving system used in today's cars... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxb5...7EA9A129&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=35

I'm familiar with the operation of the Model T, hand crank and all. I don't its that complicated at all, actually painfully simple. I mean the world learned how to drive from this car.

If its that important to you, program the left paddle (shift paddle) on your G25 (or other set with three pedals) to be the throttle, the throttle pedal to be your brake, your brake to be your clutch and your clutch to be your speed selector, then your shifter to be the hand brake and there you have it, Model T functionality.

PS: Nice vid, I actually live 15mins away from the location it was shot at, and the factory (Piquette Plant) where the Model Ts where assembled is less than 10 mins away.
Hence, I live in Detroit, motor capital of the world.

 

[niky]

Ok, their's cars being raced in the present day that share those simularities, I don't understand your point.

Modern race cars have disc brakes, ten times as much grip as any classic car... most have power steering and all have power brakes... non-synchromesh dogboxes on these cars will often allow clutchless shifts, too, making it much easier to change up or down. The only thing that makes driving a modern racecar more challenging is the heat (which has always been a given with race machines), the G-forces (a given) and the fact that when the car finally lets go, it's often too late to do anything about it.

Ever drive a car with drum brakes, unassisted steering, an unassisted clutch and no grip through a mountain pass, trying to keep up with modern traffic? In the rain? It's character building, I can tell you that... ...now give it positive camber when you hit a bump, engine choking at low rpms due to the thin air, and stick the shifter outside the cockpit at the level of your ankles, and you'll have a classic car.

Again. A 1987 GNX is a "classic", and it can handle speeds way beyond 60mph, and its quite stable at highway speeds, not "nerve-wracking".

A 1987 GNX is far and away a different car from anything mentioned in this thread. In fact, the gap between that and say, a sports car from the 60's, is pretty big.

You're again stating the obvious... Drivers have died in modern racecars... I don't 'think' there will be any dying or other violence in GT5... So again i'm missing your point here.

Drivers die... but they have to do ten times more stupid and hit the wall more than twice as fast to get there. Big crashes happen nowadays because drivers are confident that they can hit the edge of the handling envelope, and aren't as scared of crashing as drivers of old. Racing car drivers, in the old days, had to race like they were walking on eggshells... and they still bought the farm... in droves.

You said: "easier to drive". Easier to drive what? At normal speeds? No. At racing speeds? Definitely no. Even cars from the 70's and 80's are not as stable to drive on the highway at speeds of 100 mph as cars of today... cars from the pre-war era could hardly go that fast, but they were not nearly as stable as cars from the 60's.

Cars are so refined, so stable, and so predictable nowadays that any fool with half a brain can get in one and go around a racetrack with at least half-a-chance of not ending up turned turtle in the weeds. Try driving a classic with no grip at even 8/10ths and you'll need to be very sharp indeed to catch it.

Of course, if we're talking about control issues here... these things can't be accurately represented in a game that will interpolate control inputs anyway... sorry... I jumped on your response without reading the post before it... but I'd hardly say that driving older cars is easy compared to what's out today.

 

[Seismica]

We need more classic cars. Having a classic car cup with only 10-15 cars capable of entering is pointless.

In GT4 the European classic car cup was absolutely dominated by the Jag E-type. Even the Aston DB5 didn't come close. We already have Ferrari and Lamborghini so we should get some classics from them, but we need many many more, and we need older ones. Maybe a classic le-mans 24 hour with cars pre-1940, and another one for pre-1970 That would make these sort of cars useful for something. (Although the GT40 will probably dominate the pre-1970 ones if Porsche isn't included, but oh well )

 

[Antti-san]

In GT4 the European classic car cup was absolutely dominated by the Jag E-type. Even the Aston DB5 didn't come close.

Probably not, since the DB5 wasn't even in the game (unfortunately). Perhaps you are thinking of Enthusia? But yeah, I agree, you can never have enough classic cars! 👍

 

[Seismica]

Probably not, since the DB5 wasn't even in the game (unfortunately). Perhaps you are thinking of Enthusia? But yeah, I agree, you can never have enough classic cars! 👍

I might be thinking of the DB6? I thought there was an old Aston? Ah well i'm probably wrong now i come to think of it, as the prize from the Aston 1 make race was a DB9...

Well that just furthers my point, the Jag had no competition (Even the Merc 300SL - I know THAT is in the game Mission 34 FTW). Except the old American muscle cars, which wern't driven by the AI in the classic cups, but were usable by the player, good job PD 👍

 

[Spec M]

Modern race cars have disc brakes, ten times as much grip as any classic car... most have power steering and all have power brakes... non-synchromesh dogboxes on these cars will often allow clutchless shifts, too, making it much easier to change up or down.

Power steering is usually deleted to save weight in most touring car series. Im not quite sure what power brakes are. I'm a tech and have only heard of hydraulic and ABS. Still not getting your point...

The only thing that makes driving a modern racecar more challenging is the heat (which has always been a given with race machines), the G-forces (a given)

Ok, too bad we can't experiences any of those things while playing GT5. Again, I don't think video game technology has come that far.

GT4 allowed players to drive 900hp Group C cars, which in real life i'm sure not many people can get in and just started whipping around the track. Hence some of the greatest driver in the world have piloted them (Schumacher) But, it is a game.

A 1987 GNX is far and away a different car from anything mentioned in this thread.

Exactly my point.

Drivers die... but they have to do ten times more stupid and hit the wall more than twice as fast to get there.

I disagree 100% for obvious reasons. But I wont sit and determine rather a person was killed is because he did something stupid or not. Thats a pretty ignorant comment.

Big crashes happen nowadays because drivers are confident that they can hit the edge of the handling envelope, and aren't as scared of crashing as drivers of old.

Really, you seem to know so much that you can speak for every race pilot in the land.

Racing car drivers, in the old days, had to race like they were walking on eggshells... and they still bought the farm... in droves.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here but, I don't think race drivers think about crashing as much as you do apparently. They're professionals.

said: "easier to drive". Easier to drive what? At normal speeds? No. At racing speeds?

but I'd hardly say that driving older cars is easy compared to what's out today.

^What the hell are racing speeds, 120mph can be normal on the autobahn...

When the Alfa Romeo P2 was introduced in 1924 Ascari drove it 98mph, then he won a speed trial by reaching 121mph. It was a standard gas pedal driven inline 8 with two carburetors. Its not rocket science to operate some of these vintage cars, really.

Even cars from the 70's and 80's are not as stable to drive on the highway at speeds of 100 mph as cars of today... cars from the pre-war era could hardly go that fast, but they were not nearly as stable as cars from the 60's.

I'm not going to even respond to this, because it completely false, and much like all of your statements its a bunch of unsupported allegations.

Cars are so refined, so stable, and so predictable nowadays that any fool with half a brain can get in one and go around a racetrack with at least half-a-chance

Apparently not any fool...

Try driving a classic with no grip

I will eventually and people still do, even in the rain...

Of course, if we're talking about control issues here... these things can't be accurately represented in a game that will interpolate control inputs anyway

Obviously, no car can be accurately represented with a DS3, whats your point?
If driving a vintage road racing car is too difficult and scary for you just don't drive one.
I'm sure skilled and seasoned drivers that want a challenge will be enthused to pilot them. Sorry I'm not registering any relevant points or facts in any of your statements.

 

[niky]

I disagree 100% for obvious reasons. But I wont sit and determine rather a person was killed is because he did something stupid or not. Thats a pretty ignorant comment.

*sigh*

What was meant, partially in sarcasm, was that a driver has to be pushing much harder and driving much faster to get into a potentially fatal accident nowadays, than a race driver of years gone by.

Back in the 60s, the life expectancy of a Formula driver was much, much shorter than it is today. In fact, the chances of a racer dying within five years of racing in the 60's were two in three.

Nowadays, a driver in F1 can have a shunt at well over 250 km/h and walk away with nothing but a bruised ego.

Drivers of yesteryear often drove well within their cars' limits, mindful of the danger... which is what made standout performances like Fangio's at the Nurburgring even more memorable, as he dared to push much closer to the edge than anyone else, and set lap record after lap record in his

Really, you seem to know so much that you can speak for every race pilot in the land.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here but, I don't think race drivers think about crashing as much as you do apparently. They're professionals.

Many veterans of the sport have noted that modern racing cars are much more forgiving to drive. A recent EVO article had Tom Chilton driving classic touring cars and comparing them to his modern Ford Focus... his thoughts on the Galaxie were quite... interesting. Also try to catch Top Gear Australia's piece on the Ford Falcon GTHO Phase III... an amazing racing car in the 70's, but something of a beast to drive today.

Yes, it takes skill to drive modern racers, but older cars were often less predictable and less forgiving than modern cars.

^What the hell are racing speeds, 120mph can be normal on the autobahn...

You've never actually driven on a track, have you?

When the Alfa Romeo P2 was introduced in 1924 Ascari drove it 98mph, then he won a speed trial by reaching 121mph. It was a standard gas pedal driven inline 8 with two carburetors. Its not rocket science to operate some of these vintage cars, really.

Straightline speed tells you nothing about how well or how badly a car handles...

I'm not going to even respond to this, because it completely false, and much like all of your statements its a bunch of unsupported allegations.

So... are you saying Volkswagen Beetles were more stable than modern cars? Or a Shelby Cobra (which is noted to be quite flightly at speed on the racetrack, in modern tests)?

I will eventually and people still do, even in the rain...

On reproduction tires with modern rubber, and not at full racing speeds.

If driving a vintage road racing car is too difficult and scary for you just don't drive one.
I'm sure skilled and seasoned drivers that want a challenge will be enthused to pilot them. Sorry I'm not registering any relevant points or facts in any of your statements.[/b]

You say old cars are easy... simply because they can't hit high speeds in a straight line. Which is totally missing the point of a game like Gran Turismo... which is not Gran Drag-ismo.

 

[TheCracker]

*sigh*
What was meant, partially in sarcasm, was that a driver has to be pushing much harder and driving much faster to get into a potentially fatal accident nowadays, than a race driver of years gone by.

Back in the 60s, the life expectancy of a Formula driver was much, much shorter than it is today. In fact, the chances of a racer dying within five years of racing in the 60's were two in three.

That was less about the car's handling attributes and more about car and circuit safety equipment and facilities.

Many veterans of the sport have noted that modern racing cars are much more forgiving to drive. A recent EVO article had Tom Chilton driving classic touring cars and comparing them to his modern Ford Focus... his thoughts on the Galaxie were quite...

Good article that 👍

Yes, it takes skill to drive modern racers, but older cars were often less predictable and less forgiving than modern cars.

Most of that comes down to the tyre construction of period tyres. The Dunlops that we run on, and most classic racing series use, have very different characteristics to modern road and race tyres. Modern tyres have much higher levels of grip, but when they let go you have little chance of catching it, and if you do you'll have lost so much time. The classic tyres have little real grip but the loss of it is very gradual, almost as soon as you turn, but the slide is very progressive and controllable and is the only way you'll get a decent lap time using them.

Older cars have much less rigidity in the chassis too so you get plenty of twist and flex. This added to the tyre characteristics, can lead to the cars appearing to be a handful, when actually the driver is well on top of the situation. In a lot of ways, softer older cars are more forgiving then stiffer modern cars on the limit. The difference is, you drive a modern race car upto it's limits of traction, you drive a classic beyond it's limits of traction to get the best out of it.

On reproduction tires with modern rubber, and not at full racing speeds.

Classic racing tyres are exactly the same as the ones used in period. And they certainly do race at full racing speeds.

 

[niky]

Damnit! Shhhh! I was trying to win this one!

Of course, there is still the fact that a modern car has higher limits, and that exceeding those limits is harder to do. You hit the limits on an older car much, much earlier.

Oh... and Cobra, Cheetah, etcetera... still damn scary.

 

[TheCracker]

Oh... and Cobra, Cheetah, etcetera... still damn scary.

Oh, without a doubt. Anything with much more power than grip is going to be a handful, especially when the suspension set-up is crude compared to modern multi-link systems that keep the wheels located in the ideal position to the road. 👍

 

[Spec M]

*sigh*
Back in the 60s, the life expectancy of a Formula driver was much, much shorter than it is today. In fact, the chances of a racer dying within five years of racing in the 60's were two in three.

Alright, as I states before, their's no death or violence in the GT series so i'm sure we wont have to worry about this.

Yes, it takes skill to drive modern racers, but older cars were often less predictable and less forgiving than modern cars.

Alright apparently theres been muscle cars of the 50s and 60s in GT4 and I haven't heard too many people complain and whine about them. In fact IMO they where some of the funnest cars to drive and make normal modern production vehicles seem, rather boring and soft.

You've never actually driven on a track, have you?

Actually I have sorry to shoot your assumption out of the sky. Not auto x either, I've driven a 83 Camaro (305ci) on Waterford Hills Road Course, which is 45mins away from my home. The Camaro was my first car when I was 18 and I took it to the road course within the first 6 days of having my license. 👍

Straightline speed tells you nothing about how well or how badly a car handles...

Agreed, but when Antonio Ascari won the GP in 1924 he had a recorded speed of 98mph.
Hint Grand Prix races aren't straightline races, this was a road course, Circuit of Ceremona in Italy actually. It wasn't until later on that year or earlier 1925 he drove the same car at a recorded 121mph during a speed record.

You say old cars are easy... simply because they can't hit high speeds in a straight line.

No I didn't, you're putting words in my mouth. Maybe you should read more carefully and you could understand.

Which is totally missing the point of a game like Gran Turismo... which is not Gran Drag-ismo.

Wow that was clever:tup:.
If you don't want to drive vintage pre era race cars than don't. Who cares, really.

BUT I WILL!


I would love to be a part of this type of racing! Funny though, they're driving cars from the 1920s-30s and theirs no dying

 

[eca123]

Sort of off topic, but if the game includes old formula cars, I would love to see the old Nurburgring included.

 

[RedBaron]

Like that:

 

[Spec M]

Sort of off topic, but if the game includes old formula cars, I would love to see the old Nurburgring included.

No actually you're perfectly on topic

Like that

This is some great footage, added to favs .
Shows some of these vintage cars aren't as slow and unstable as some people think.

Edit: Found this amazing historical Mercedes vid.
Over 600hp in the 1930s PLEASE PD!!! I need to drive this atleast once on the Ring!

 

[Apok]

Over 600hp in the 1930s PLEASE PD!!! I need to drive this atleast once on the Ring!

Me toooo please. These are truly monsters

 

[Biggles]

My experience with classic race cars in Ferrari Challenge & F1CE (Time Trials only) leads me to think these cars are as enjoyable & tricky to drive as anything out there. They sound great, look great & I particularly like the slower speed & open cockpit - gives you a good opportunity to "look around" while you're racing. It would be great to be able (via the eye toy, or something) to stick your own head on the driver's body, so you could "interact" with your opponents while racing online.

 

[OmegaKing]

mako shark
by corevette

http://www.1-18scalecars.com/Chevrolet/Chevrolet_Corvette_Mako_Shark_1961_front_quarter.jpg