Should the US return to the Gold Standard?

[Dapper]

Nope different entity. Doesn't matter that there is overall growth, inflation is a drag on that growth.

Well, it is the same entity. At least if the business or innovation is built here using America's roads, police, welfare! It is awesome we can just print dollars to feed the poor, and fat, pay way too many cops, it helps the economy. I mean, it is working.

You should host an air america program, seriously, your stuff is golden intertainment. :d

^This one's for you.

Gold pffft This is street legal and in production.

 

[Danoff]

Well, it is the same entity. At least if the business or innovation is built here using America's roads, police, welfare! It is awesome we can just print dollars to feed the poor, and fat, pay way too many cops, it helps the economy. I mean, it is working.

No, that's not the same entity. The existence of infrastructure does not make all productivity that exists within that infrastructure the property of the government. We are not slaves simply because our government decides to build roads.

You're clearly confused about how government funding works. Representatives are democratically elected. These representatives balance taxes with services in such a way as to keep their constituents happy and stay elected. Eventually those representatives toy with the idea of providing more services than the taxes collected would allow (raising taxes doesn't help you win elects like offering services does). To cover the deficit the federal reserve (not elected) borrows money (shifting taxes to future generations). In order to pay that debt back the federal reserve (not elected) can either borrow more (shifting taxes to the future) or print money (tax wealth). Money can also be printed to offer bailouts or "stimulus". The printed money destroys the wealth of american businesses and individuals.

Inflation is stifling to the economy, even more than normal taxes because it's more difficult to plan for. Now, I can go on a nice long discussion about why inflation is not as bad as it sounds. But you need to recognize that it is a serious problem with real consequences and not simply the way governments do business. The US economy has done very well in periods without inflation, and our highest periods of inflation have been some of the worst economically.

 

[Dapper]

We are not slaves simply because our government decides to build roads.

That is pretty irreverent. And paying tax ain't slavery.

Now, I can go on a nice long discussion about why inflation is not as bad as it sounds.

That's what I just did to you.

There are no major set backs due to this style of currency or governing. Technology will expand at it's own organic rate driven by the natural process of evolution, no depression or recession has stopped it yet. Watson was developed during "the worst economic time since the great depression." The greatest advancements in the worst times is impossible.

 

[Danoff]

That is pretty irreverent. And paying tax ain't slavery.

My knee-jerk reaction is to immediately stop talking to you and walk away when you do this. Do you even know you're doing something obnoxious and intellectually dishonest or is it an accident?

Here's what you originally wrote:

The value was created, then got taken away by the same entity.

I explained why it is not. Just accept that this statement is wrong and move on. Don't dig in, deflect, change the subject, etc.

That's what I just did to you.

For all the wrong reasons. Your argument is 100% wrong, but I can make an argument about why inflation is not as bad as is often thought that doesn't rely in incorrect concepts.

There are no major set backs due to this style of currency or governing.

Wrong, and you citing the tech boom (low inflationary period) is not proof of this.

Technology will expand at it's own organic rate driven by the natural process of evolution, no depression or recession has stopped it yet.

This doesn't support the claim that there are no setbacks due to inflation. This claims that we can still make progress in the face of setbacks. Surely you understand the difference.

Watson was developed during "the worst economic time since the great depression." The greatest advancements in the worst times is impossible.

See above. This doesn't support the claim that there are no setbacks due to inflation. This claims that we can still make progress in the face of setbacks. Surely you understand the difference.

 

[Dapper]

My knee-jerk reaction is to immediately stop talking to you and walk away when you do this. Do you even know you're doing something obnoxious and intellectually dishonest or is it an accident?

What you said was ignorant and irreverent. You invoked slavery to support your pathetically wrong case. 👎

I explained why it is not.

No you didn't. You are wrong, you can't explain it without invoking slavery.

This doesn't support the claim that there are no setbacks due to inflation. This claims that we can still make progress in the face of setbacks. Surely you understand the difference.



See above. This doesn't support the claim that there are no setbacks due to inflation. This claims that we can still make progress in the face of setbacks. Surely you understand the difference.

There are no setbacks!

And I never cited a "tech boom". What are you talking about? From now on, please respond to me and reality.

 

[Danoff]

What you said was ignorant and irreverent. You invoked slavery to support your pathetically wrong case. 👎

Maybe you don't understand what slavery means?

No you didn't. You are wrong, you can't explain it without invoking slavery.

Maybe you can't read?

There are no setbacks!

Maybe you don't understand math?

And I never cited a "tech boom". What are you talking about? From now on, please respond to me and reality.

Maybe you have no memory? (hint: ipad)

Either way, I'm abruptly reminded why I adopted a "don't feed the Dapper" policy.

 

[Dapper]

(hint: ipad)

You just ignore everything else... yeah I think ipads are real cool, for example, but I have no idea how that is the beginning of a tech boom when I've typed the word exponential numerous times describing growth, or evolution, from as far back as the big bang. Not 2009.

I even said there was no dotcom bubble!

My son and I enjoyed this

 

[Danoff]

You just ignore everything else... yeah I think ipads are real cool, for example, but I have no idea how that is the beginning of a tech boom when I've typed the word exponential numerous times describing growth, or evolution, from as far back as the big bang. Not 2009.

I even said there was no dotcom bubble!

My son and I enjoyed this

It's just stunning how you take the least important part of each post, miss the point, and head off in that direction. The more I read from you the more I want to know the answer to this question:

Do you even know you're doing something obnoxious and intellectually dishonest or is it an accident?

 

[Dapper]

It's just stunning how you take the least important part of each post, miss the point, and head off in that direction. The more I read from you the more I want to know the answer to this question:

Because you say don't mean so. I don't think you are engaged in the conversation that is revolving around the growth of us is becoming far to fast for gold to have any relevance. Reality is the truth.

 

[Danoff]

Because you say don't mean so. I don't think you are engaged in the conversation that is revolving around the growth of us is becoming far to fast for gold to have any relevance. Reality is the truth.

You're right, less than 2% growth (for 2011) is a staggering exponential rate that just can't be handled. The US economy is just an explosion of activity these days. Given that we had negative growth a few years ago we're clearly skyrocketing. At that rate in only a few short years we'll be growing at 1000% per year.

There is a semblance of reality in what you just said, but the US economy is roughly stagnant over the last few years.

 

[Dapper]

http://www.measuringworth.com/usgdp/

Real GDP from 1790 to present is exponential.

 

[Liquid]

Man, I remember when we were talking about a gold standard.

Silver standard, perhaps?

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

There are no setbacks!

Man, I remember when we were talking about a gold standard.

And I remember when people were talking about what happened in Germany after the war. Remember that?

 

[Liquid]

And I remember when people were talking about what happened in Germany after the war. Remember that?

Yeah, and you wonder whether Germany leaving the gold standard in 1914 had any effect on the hyperinflation that followed their crippling war debts.

The last few pages have just been about inflation and the economy generally. Interesting, but not on topic. Although that said, Dapper's stance on gold means we'd just be going around and around in circles.

Another interesting point is that China, using a silver standard, avoided the Great Depression almost completely. I'm not saying that that's a direct cause/effect, but it's an interesting observation.

 

[Dapper]

And I remember when people were talking about what happened in Germany after the war. Remember that?

So what? Germany is OK, and technology never slowed down.

 

[Liquid]

Dapper, I ask you; what is your opinion on a silver standard, as opposed to a gold standard? What is it about a backed currency that you find so unsatisfactory compared to a fiat currency?

 

[Dapper]

Dapper, I ask you; what is your opinion on a silver standard, as opposed to a gold standard? What is it about a backed currency that you find so unsatisfactory compared to a fiat currency?

It isn't flexible. And then fractional reserve banking with any material backing becomes pointless once we've created so much awesome output that the material now backs a small percent of what it represents. Having it there begins to serve no purpose. That day has already passed.

I never even use paper money! It's just numbers in cyber space at this point. Just saying

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

So what? Germany is OK, and technology never slowed down.

That's an example of inflation. Worthless currency not a setback? I'll take your word for it. I'm guessing they weren't close to the forefront of technology for a while.

I never even use paper money! It's just numbers in cyber space at this point. Just saying

The awesome thing is that digital gold transfers are also possible.

 

[Lizard]

I don't like tha gold standard. Sure it creates stability but as Churchil nicely showed, it kills outside trade.

 

[Dapper]

That's an example of inflation. Worthless currency not a setback? I'll take your word for it. I'm guessing they weren't close to the forefront of technology for a while.

Why are you picking on one tiny population of people? And I never said inflation doesn't happen, I've even said the US could be China's manufacturer. The point is that the way we are currently doing things is working. We just need to keep investing in what is growing, not gold.

The awesome thing is that digital gold transfers are also possible.

But if every tries to get their gold, it won't there.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Why are you picking on one tiny population of people? And I never said inflation doesn't happen, I've even said the US could be China's manufacturer. The point is that the way we are currently doing things is working.

It's an example of a setback with the government printing massive amounts of money. It's not the same scale as the US, but still applies. Things can work despite setbacks. But we're going in circles again.

Compared to some of Obama's investments, gold is a pretty good one.

But if every tries to get their gold, it won't there.

That depends on if the rate is fixed. The same problem exists with money.

 

[FoolKiller]

Did someone say Americans have more stuff for an equal amount of money?

Is that factoring in these numbers?

 

[Dapper]

It's an example of a setback with the government printing massive amounts of money. It's not the same scale as the US, but still applies. Things can work despite setbacks. But we're going in circles again.

Looking at the world population, and considering the growth during and after that period of time, it had no effect.

The same problem exists with money.

I never use cash. Neither does my wife. And not having a material backing means that problem does not exist. At worst one may have to wait until his money is done printing.

Did someone say Americans have more stuff for an equal amount of money?

Housing prices almost doubled from 1998 to 2006, mortgage loan requirements drastically changed, and a ton of people who use to not qualify for a mortgage bought houses in that time. Many people with $0 debt went to $300,000 in debt. Those folks are skewing the numbers.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Looking at the world population, and considering the growth during and after that period of time, it had no effect.

No effect just like gold has no value. The US isn't the world, so you're observation is faulty.

So you agree on Obama's investments?

 

[roamer2629]

You're describing Keynesian economics, which has been fairly thoroughly debunked. Government spending is a good way to prolong recessions, just as has happened with our current recession. The New Deal was one of the worst events in US history.

I guess reaganomics, Chicago, or Greenspan's zero rates were thoroughly proved right while I was AFK too.

 

[Dapper]

No effect just like gold has no value. The US isn't the world, so you're observation is faulty.

Germany was poor for a few years. So what? It had no effect on the scheme of society. I've said three times now that the US could turn into China's manufacturer.

So you agree on Obama's investments?

Absolutely.

I guess reaganomics, Chicago, or Greenspan's zero rates were thoroughly proved right while I was AFK too.

:tup:We need more Argentinians

 

[FoolKiller]

Looking at the world population, and considering the growth during and after that period of time, it had no effect.

Either we are so far off topic that you aren't having the same conversation any more or you changed scope to fit your needs.

Housing prices almost doubled from 1998 to 2006, mortgage loan requirements drastically changed, and a ton of people who use to not qualify for a mortgage bought houses in that time. Many people with $0 debt went to $300,000 in debt.

And debt was doubling about every ten years before that because...
And the credit card debt has nothing to do with all the stuff we can buy because...

Explain the whole graph, not just mortgage stats in the housing bubble time frame there at the end. The chart shows the two most common forms of debt over a 35 year period. Both grow over the full time shown.

Those folks are skewing the numbers.

The US census and Federal Reserve data?

So you agree on Obama's investments?

Always bet on failure.

 

[Dapper]

And debt was doubling about every ten years before that because...
And the credit card debt has nothing to do with all the stuff we can buy because...

Explain the whole graph, not just mortgage stats in the housing bubble time frame there at the end. The chart shows the two most common forms of debt over a 35 year period. Both grow over the full time shown.

Usury law deregulation... the attack on the middle class.

The US census and Federal Reserve data?

The left side of the bell curve was taken advantage of by the right side of the bell curve.

US Government+MIT

Researchers hope to create a platform that would allow an individual to identify a household problem that needs assistance; then head to a local printing store to select a blueprint, from a library of robotic designs; and then customize an easy-to-use robotic device that could solve the problem. Within 24 hours, the robot would be printed, assembled, fully programmed and ready for action.

No more chores!

 

[GTsail]

Once this gold standard was in place, I'm not sure how the US economy would expand from year-to-year (a concern mentioned by Dapper). The US currently only mines approx. 242,000 kilos of gold each year (which has a current market value of $14.4 billion dollars). This would put a severe limit on US growth (approximately 0.1% per year). In addition, I don't think that any of this new gold is being produced by the US Government, so I'm unsure how the US money supply could expand at all. Would the US Government have to buy gold? How would these gold purchases help anyone other than the gold mining companies?

....Definitely doesn't work that way. Gold would increase in value with the growth of the economy even if no new gold were mined. That causes deflation which leads to other problems. But the amount of gold discovered does not directly limit the economy.....

Can you explain this further?

I thought that main point of having the Gold standard is that it would limit the Government's ability to print money, because the Government could only print money up to the amount of gold it has on hand. And therefore, if no more gold was mined and sold to the Federal Reserve, the Federal Reserve couldn't print any additional money (and the economy would stagnate).

How does the economy grow if the money supply stays exactly the same from year to year?

Respectfully,
GTsail

 

[BobK]

But if every tries to get their gold, it won't there.

Oh, I see. That sentence explains things perfectly.