Signs of the times

[ledhed]

This is not a gun controll thread ..if anything its a " idiots with guns " HOW do you controll them (?), type thread .


I live in the city accross from a football / baseball field called Frankford Boys Club . It has a long standing reputation for sports and what they bring to kids lives and parents . I was a coach their , my daughter was in both T ball and cheerleading and my son T ball and baseball.

Yesterday was a practice day for football , after school you get about 100 or more kids of different , age / weight groups showing up for either practice or to meet to go to another field. You have another group that come to to advantage of the four basketball courts .


At some time there was a confrontation of some sort ..words ..what used to be normal crap that kids do .

At about 4 pm a group drives up in a black buick and someone fires ten rounds towards the crowd of kids in the field. They scoot ...no one is hit and the place empties in about ..no lie...30 seconds ..maybe ? Nobody knows a thing...no one saw anything..officially..and no bodies were left laying on the ground . The police showed up about 5 minutes after my wife called ( I had gone accross to the field to count bodies and plug any holes I could ) .
The police tape off the street and count the shell casings walk around a bit ...then leave ..another routine day..another routine job..another senless act that no one knows why or how . Just another day .

Since when does the thought proccess that says " lets drive back and show those beetches what messin with us is gonna cost and burn some ass " NORMAL ??????

WTF is wrong with these people and why is this crap SO COMMON that the police are bored with it ?

WTF


Its not the guns its the idiots with the guns ...HOW did they get that way ?

 

[exigeracer]

I'm not targetting one thing, but have you heard some of that death-metal people listen to? It promotes it and familiarizes death with them, which is so disturbing. This where I believe the Montreal shooter got his "inspiration."

I'll be watching this thread...

 

[ledhed]

The thing is ...IRONY ALERT...one guy with a messed up head walks into a college and shoots it up.....WORLDWIDE NEWS ALERT..

EVERY DAY in my city someone walks into a ' hood and shoots it up..last night 4900 block of Jackson st. a 26 yr old shot full of holes found dead...didn't make the news...300 dead and thousands wounded in my city...a year.... and its not a war........ its just lfe...didn't make the news .


Brain dead moron in Montreal walks into a College shoots up some people gets dead ..WORLD WIDE PRESS coverage. And an advertisement to other losers on what they need to do to make their lives count for something .


Ask me what I care about..the morons shooting up the ball field accross from MY HOUSE ..or a moron in Montreal who ate too many mushrooms and lived in the basement with a blow up doll too long ?

 

[Flerbizky]

I'm not targetting one thing, but have you heard some of that death-metal people listen to? It promotes it and familiarizes death with them, which is so disturbing. This where I believe the Montreal shooter got his "inspiration."

I'll be watching this thread...

Death Metal ?... I seriously hope you're not serious !... But if you are, how can you seriously put out a statement like that ?... 99% of these kids has nothing better to do than play GTA which glorifies stealing and killing...

GTA is the Real Problem this society is facing...


Irony may have been used at some point...

 

[FoolKiller]

I'm not targetting one thing, but have you heard some of that death-metal people listen to? It promotes it and familiarizes death with them, which is so disturbing. This where I believe the Montreal shooter got his "inspiration."

I'll be watching this thread...

While one can attempt to blame death-metal on violent teens Ledhed's situation sounds more like a gang-style driveby. Last I checked your sterotypical gangs don't listen to death-metal.

Then there is the fact that thousands, possibly millions, of kids listen to death-metal or gang rap and don't become violent. Maybe only 1% of the audience does. If the music is the inspiration what makes this 1% different than the rest.

And for the record, I used to listen to lots of metal and angry music when I was a teen. I also played violent video games and watched violent movies. I never once thought the idea of shooting other kids was cool.

I believe there is more than just the media to blame. In fact, I strongly feel the media is a huge cop-out by parents.

 

[exigeracer]

The gunner in our case admitted that his music was an inspiration. That's all I am saying, he also stated that "life is a video game, you gotta die sometime."

I'm sorry, when things like this happen to people around you, it's just the first thing that came to my mind. Shootings aren't "another routine day" and these sorts of things aren't "SO COMMON that the police are bored with it" here in Montreal, they just aren't.

The man in the Dawson College case has clearly nothing to do with social norms, it was just one guy who was off his block. I am sorry if I didn't completely understand the point of the thread.

 

[Danoff]

The problem is idiots, not guns, death meta, rap, video games, or movies.

 

[FoolKiller]

GTA? Music? Nope and nope. They may have been a trigger but they triggered something else that was the catalyst. People who do this kind of thing are not mentally stable for one reason or another and in desperation to find themselves something in the media may sound sensical to them.

The question I have is where are the parents when these kids get these guns or make pipe bombs in the garage? What are the parents doing when their kid disappears all night long with his "buddies?"

A year ago we had a kid shooting at cops with an automatic weapon in my city. His parents said that it was the fault of the police and the kid was just misunderstood and made a few mistakes. All evidence says that he was dealing meth and when the police approached him for acting suspicious he pulled out the gun. Whole groups were in protest over the police shooting this kid when in the end the autopsy showed that one of his own bullets bounced off the inside of his car and killed him. Apparently his mistake was buying a gun he couldn't handle.

You also have to look at the fact that people have done stupid things and gone on killing rampages for years, long before GTA, Rap, or Death-metal. I remember being a kid and hearing about cases like this. There wasn't a lot in the Fresh Prince's music or Atari that could drive a person to this. Oh wait, I forgot, it was Motley Crew.

There is something in the person's psyche that allows them to go down this road. When someone kills someone but didn't listen to a certain type of music or play certain video games they just get labelled psychotic or insane. What makes these people any different?

Trying to make these connections only leads to stigma that hurts others that listen/play the same types of things. After Columbine anyone wearinga black trenchcoat was considered dangerous. Today I heard them on CNN Headline News talking about how the kid in Montreal had a mohawk and wore a black trenchcoat. I already had a woman at work tell me that a guy she knows has a mohawk and he scares her now. Why?

I had my mom go off when she found out that I borrowed GTA from a friend, when I was 21. Why? Did I kill anyone or think it would be cool to shoot at cops? No, I got bored with it and gave it back.

Look at a person's personality and lifestyle, try and understand their psyche. Their dress and their habits mean very little.

 

[SRV2LOW4ME]

The thing is ...IRONY ALERT...one guy with a messed up head walks into a college and shoots it up.....WORLDWIDE NEWS ALERT..

EVERY DAY in my city someone walks into a ' hood and shoots it up..last night 4900 block of Jackson st. a 26 yr old shot full of holes found dead...didn't make the news...

I think one of the main differences (in this specific case) is the fact that the guy who walked into the college just shot at random people, not targeting anyone in particular for any specific reason. The 26 year old, who as you say was shot more then once, was most likely (atleast in the public/media's eye) a target due to gang violence, or some sort of "street justice". When your looking for ratings/viewers, its easier to gain a public reaction when reporting on someone dying for no reason other then a mad man, then to report on another death due to a gang related shooting.

I agree with FK on this, and he brings up some valid points and examples of how society jumps to conclusions. To blame music or video games is just a scap goat for bad parenting, and the condition in which they were raised.

 

[ledhed]

Whats scarier . A loner / loser type , who walks into a college and rips off a few rounds and is killed and done with ....OR a whole culture that believes its not only OK to fire into a crowded ballfield or shoot the crap out of someone ...for no other reason than you feel " disrespected ' ...???

You seem to be really missing the point .

300 dead a year some 4 years and younger most under 21...THOUSANDS wounded ..in only ONE city in the US .

AGAIN I must ask....



WTF

Figures released by IBC today, updated by statistics for the year 2005 from the main Baghdad morgue, show that the total number of civilians reported killed has risen year-on-year since May 1st 2003 (the date that President Bush announced “major combat operations have ended&#8221:

6,331 from 1st May 2003 to the first anniversary of the invasion, 19th March 2004 (324 days: Year 1)
11,312 from 20th March 2004 to 19th March 2005 (365 days: Year 2)
12,617 from 20th March 2005 to 1st March 2006 (346 days: Year 3).
In terms of average violent deaths per day this represents:

20 per day in Year 1
31 per day in Year 2 and
36 per day in Year 3.
The IBC figure for Year 3 includes no deaths from March 2006, excludes the bulk of killings which followed the 22nd February bombing of a major Shiite Muslim shrine in Samarra, and lacks Baghdad morgue data for January and February this year. If January and February 2006 are excluded as being clearly incomplete, then the daily death rate for the remaining part of Year 3 rises to 40 (11,480 deaths over 287 days = 40 per day). However even before Year 3 has ended, and with incomplete data for its final months, the number of civilians reported killed is already higher than for all of Year 2 (12,617 vs. 11,312).

Homicides and Suicides --- National Violent Death Reporting System, United States, 2003--2004

Violent deaths claimed 49,639 lives in the United States during 2003, and the prevention of violent deaths is an integral part of the public health agenda (1). In 2003, CDC launched the National Violent Death Reporting System (NVDRS) to provide detailed information on the circumstances of violent deaths. The system can be used to develop and evaluate prevention policies, programs, and strategies at the national, state, and local levels (2). This report describes the analysis of violent deaths from seven states that participated in NVDRS in 2003, plus six additional states that participated in 2004. Homicide circumstance information revealed that most victims knew the suspects involved and that intimate partner conflicts continued to be among the most important contributing factors. Suicide circumstance information indicated that mental health disorders and intimate partner problems had important roles. These findings underscore the value of NVDRS data for effective planning and targeting of violence-prevention programs.

NVDRS is an active, state-based surveillance system that collects information on homicides, suicides, deaths of undetermined intent (i.e., those for which available information is insufficient to enable a medical or legal authority to make a distinction among unintentional injury, self-harm, or assault*), deaths from legal intervention (e.g., involving a person killed by an on-duty police officer), and unintentional firearm deaths. Seven states provided data in 2003 (Alaska, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, Oregon, South Carolina, and Virginia), and six additional states contributed in 2004 (Colorado, Georgia, North Carolina, Oklahoma, Rhode Island, and Wisconsin). NVDRS uses a multisource approach (i.e., death certificates, coroner/medical examiner reports, law enforcement records, and crime laboratory data) for analysis of violent deaths. Using information from all of these sources, data abstractors in each state assign a manner of death (i.e., suicide, homicide, unintentional firearm deaths, legal interventions, and undetermined deaths) to each case. NVDRS also collects the International Classification of Diseases, 10th Revision (ICD-10) code for underlying cause of death (UCOD), circumstances contributing to the death, and characteristics of the death, including victim-suspect relationship and victim toxicology results. The UCOD is categorized as suicide or homicide using standard definitions from the National Vital Statistics System (NVSS) (3--5). For 2004, ICD-10 codes for the UCOD were not reported to NVDRS for 2,773 (19.9%) of the deaths. Because of the high percentage of missing UCOD codes, this report categorizes deaths only by the manner of death assigned by abstractors. The abstractor-assigned manner of death and UCOD ICD-10 codes were consistent in 99.0% and 96.5% of the suicides and homicides, respectively, in 2003, and 95.3% and 93.1%, respectively, of the suicides and homicides in 2004. Analysis of rates was restricted to in-state deaths, including both residents and nonresidents. This report reflects NVDRS data collected through June 2005.

The combined seven states collecting 2003 data accounted for 12.5% of the 2003 U.S. population and for 11.2% of all suicides and 11.5% of homicides in the United States during 2003. The 13 states participating in 2004 accounted for 23.4% of the U.S. population in 2003 and for 23.4% of all suicides and 22.6% of homicides in the United States during 2003. By June 2005, the seven states collecting 2003 data had reported 7,732 violent deaths, and the 13 states collecting 2004 data had reported 13,922.

For the seven states that collected data in 2003 and the 13 that collected data in 2004, suicide accounted for 46.6% (3,603) and 53.0% (7,379) of all NVDRS deaths, respectively. Nearly 26% of deaths reported in NVDRS in both years (2,023 in 2003 and 3,758 in 2004) were homicides. For both years, deaths from legal interventions and unintentional firearm deaths were rare (63 [0.8%] and 54 [0.7%], respectively, in 2003 and 123 [0.9%] and 104 [0.7%], respectively, in 2004).

We are at war with ourselves and dont even know it .

49,639 lives in the United States during 2003,

homicides = Nearly 26% of deaths reported in NVDRS in both years (2,023 in 2003 )

6,331 from 1st May 2003 to the first anniversary of the invasion, 19th March 2004 (324 days: Year 1)

And we are losing .

 

[Michael88]

Guns are not the problem, most guns are illegal bought from the black market at esatern europe so gun banning only hurts innocent citizen which shoot just for fun and sports.

The anti-gun propaganda may sound great for people with hoplophobia but in the end its just another ideotic ban and we all know how bans work:

Just look at drugs, drugs would be less common if they were legal because they price would go down dramatically, and the ban did nothing but increasing the price of them and starting drug-gang fights etc.

Same with guns.

 

[ledhed]

Guns are not the problem, most guns are illegal bought from the black market at esatern europe so gun banning only hurts innocent citizen which shoot just for fun and sports.

The anti-gun propaganda may sound great for people with hoplophobia but in the end its just another ideotic ban and we all know how bans work:

Just look at drugs, drugs would be less common if they were legal because they price would go down dramatically, and the ban did nothing but increasing the price of them and starting drug-gang fights etc.

Same with guns.

You can send a junkie to rehab..

how do you cure a " culure " that thinks its cool to shoot people ?

 

[Kylehnat]

The problem is idiots, not guns, death meta, rap, video games, or movies.

That's pretty much it. Homicidal maniacs are just that: maniacs. They have something inherently wrong in their head. Only the most deranged person will listen to a death-metal lyric, and make it a model for their life.

 

[Flame-returns]

Then there is the fact that thousands, possibly millions, of kids listen to death-metal or gang rap and don't become violent. Maybe only 1% of the audience does. If the music is the inspiration what makes this 1% different than the rest.

1% while it may seem a small amount is in itself vastly inflated. Yesterday I went to a concert with just over 500 other metal heads, 1% would mean that 5 people in that audience would be a severe risk, it turns out that no one was. There were no shootings, stabbings, muggings, and no one was hurt with the exception of a friend of mine who was knocked over by an over-enthusiastic mosher (the mosher promptly apologised and helped my friend up - not what I would consider to be an act of violence).

0.01% would be closer but that would still be an exaggeration.

I'm not targetting one thing, but have you heard some of that death-metal people listen to? It promotes it and familiarizes death with them, which is so disturbing.

Would you not say a piece of english literature such as Shakespear's Titus Andronicus familiarises death too (and I would say it is a lot more disturbing than the semi-serious genre which is death metal)? Were there less senseless murders before metal? or rap? or video-games?

 

[Dave A]

The problem is people can be easilly influenced by what they see and what they hear. If you listen to music that promotes going out and murdering some random people you arn't impervious to it, no matter how small the effect is, there is an effect. Most people probably won't notice it, but if you combine that type of music or video game ect with someone who wakes up one morning and thinks "what the **** is the point of life?" followed by "there isn't one." your asking for trouble. I'm not saying their isn't a point in life, I certainly belive there is, but there's an increasing number of people who don't. People hink there is no point, they don't have to answer to anyone, and life sucks, so what do they do. They go mad, comit suicide, kill somone, kill someone then commit suicide ect.

 

[FoolKiller]

1% while it may seem a small amount is in itself vastly inflated. Yesterday I went to a concert with just over 500 other metal heads, 1% would mean that 5 people in that audience would be a severe risk, it turns out that no one was. There were no shootings, stabbings, muggings, and no one was hurt with the exception of a friend of mine who was knocked over by an over-enthusiastic mosher (the mosher promptly apologised and helped my friend up - not what I would consider to be an act of violence).

0.01% would be closer but that would still be an exaggeration.

Good point. I just threw out the smallest whole number, but in reality when you consider that a shooting like this happens once every 2-5 years and figure how many people listen to/play/watch violent media you are probably looking at .000000000001% of the audience being affected.

Thanks for clarifying my statistic.

Would you not say a piece of english literature such as Shakespear's Titus Andronicus familiarises death too (and I would say it is a lot more disturbing than the semi-serious genre which is death metal)? Were there less senseless murders before metal? or rap? or video-games?

Honestly, If I had to choose I would rather someone be inspired by a shooting spree gangster movie than something like Titus. Could you imagine how gruesome that would be?

But you bring about a good point: Violence has been in all mediums since the first public mediums were formed at the beginning of civilization. Why is this? Because it is inherent in us as humans. It is in us to kill, but we have evolved to a point that we can control those desires/instincts. Sometimes a strong emotional reaction will temporarily switch off that control mechanism leading to crimes of passion, such as killing a cheating wife and/or her boyfriend. Other times long emotional reactions will build up to shut it off, such as a kid being bullied and then striking back violently. Then other times something is unstable and that control mechanism is weakened and eventually something triggers it or overcomes it, in the case of serial killers, school shootings, etc.

The problem is people can be easilly influenced by what they see and what they hear. If you listen to music that promotes going out and murdering some random people you arn't impervious to it, no matter how small the effect is, there is an effect.

Ah, the magic bullet (or hypodermic needle) theory of psychology. My mother calls it the garbage in-garbage out philosophy. When I first began studying communications I took a mass communications psychology course and found this to a be a bit of a crock even at the age of 19. Being older now I can see that, yes, repeatedly watching/hearing/playing something you enjoy can make you think that it is a cool thing. However, unlike the original, overly religious, worry-monger version of this theory likes to state, it does not make a stable person think that doing these things in real life is cool. When was the last time you quit playing GT (or any racing game) and then drove your car at 200 mph down the street? If teh theory is true then the effect would be the same with a racing game as a violent game.

People like FPSs but none of them are going around shooting people, but they do love playing them. People like GTA but they don't go out and act it out. I go a step further and I enjoy light gun games. I love the feel of an actual gun in my hand as I shoot the bad guys/aliens/whatever. I even had a girlfriend that freaked out when she saw me playing Time Crisis and shooting at humans. Despite my love for these games (or murder simulators as Joe Liberman calls them) I do not own a gun, nor do I have a desire to. I haven't shot a real gun since high school, when my mom's boyfriend was determined a real man should hunt. I did target practice to show him I knew how and then never even went for a hunting license. The closest to hunting I do is fishing. The only way I would want to go out and shoot at animals is if we were in a post-apocalyptic world and it was the only way to get food.

Magic Bullet Theory doesn't work in general because it only affects the audience to the point of wanting to find more media of this type. It also completely backfires in some cases as some people will be completely turned of from certain types of media. My wife hates horror movies, despite how much I like them. She only likes Sims as a video game (and despite how many times she makes her Sims make woohoo she doesn't act it out in real life like that ).

But what about the cases where people are affected? You point it out here:

Most people probably won't notice it, but if you combine that type of music or video game ect with someone who wakes up one morning and thinks "what the **** is the point of life?" followed by "there isn't one." your asking for trouble. I'm not saying their isn't a point in life, I certainly belive there is, but there's an increasing number of people who don't. People hink there is no point, they don't have to answer to anyone, and life sucks, so what do they do. They go mad, comit suicide, kill somone, kill someone then commit suicide ect.

So, someone has grown weary of life, depressed, angry, spiteful, whatever, and because of them the media is the problem? Suicide and murder was around a long time before video games and death metal. So which is the problem, the person or the media? Do you have to fix the media that millions of others safely enjoy and a handful react badly too? Or can you try and fix the handful of people that are disturbed on some level? These are people that are unstable and would probably at least kill themselves anyway, but they find their media inspires them to do it in a way that will gain them the attention in death that they could never achieve in life. With or without the media, they were still going to do it, they just took the media as a blueprint.

There is only one acception to my case: children. Children are still developing their brains and their psyche. Outside influences can alter how they think and act. They struggle to decipher between reality and entertainment, because they don't understand the difference. But we are talking about a 25-year-old man here and he has developed and should be able to determine life from reality.


Now, in the case of gangs I can point at the problem: society. When a gang member decides he is desperate to improve his life he doesn't study hard or try to get into college or find a job, he takes the easiest route of dealing drugs and/or joining a gang. Then you have activists that validate their actions by saying that our capitalist society has forced them into this lifestyle and the gang member is not to blame.

This is such a bad thing to do. It tells other struggling teens that they should follow suit and it will be okay, despite having to sacrifice their morals. The reality is that these people failed to take personal responsibility for their lives and joined a gang where they can say it was a group thing and they all did it. They leave the I behind and it is no longer, "I killed him," it is "we killed him." If the group does it then it is much easier to accept.

The cure for this is to have these activists stop blaming the rest of society and start preaching personal responsibility. It is hard to do that because personal responsibility means accepting the results of your actions, good or bad, and it takes a lot longer to get there than it does to sell some drugs and /or buy gun. But of course, the life expectancy is much higher on the road of personal responsibility. I would much rather work hard and die of a heart attack with gray hair than get rich overnight and die of a gunshot wound while maintaining my youthful appearance.

So to answer ledhed's original question: "How did they get that way?" Laziness and lies. It sounds too simple to be the answer but it is the truth. Combine a desire for instant gratification with their local leaders telling them the rest of the world doesn't want them to try to succeed and they believe they only have one way to go.

 

[ledhed]

its been a long road to perdition but its a complete societal breakdown and * loss of values that have contributed to this " culture " of violence. I have been alive long enough and have two generations..one child 26 one 16 to guage the differences and the evolution. Its not just one thing its a combination of things.
We live in an enviroment that glorifies sex and violence and instant gratification. we have a segment of society that wears jail time as a badge of honor . The thug life is a path to fame and glory and riches and beetche's
Its been a slow eroding of values starting from the 60's and the violent protest to the government " Nixon " showing their shorts..to jimmy Carter looking helples and hopeless while Americans were held hostage for 444 days...

It has today become fashionable to have a bullet wound to show off..and a few gunfights undred your belt .

It doesn't matter if its a lie but some actually believe its jst part of a good resume to base a carreer on .

Thats what I mean by a " culture ' of violence. Its reflected in all genres of popular music and TV and movies. You grow up with this constant influence and lack of parental influence and like the man said " Its a computer ..you put crap in and crap comes out .

Laziness and lies is a moderately decent catch phrase but doesn't go near the entire source and root of the problem .

We are just afraid to face it . The biggest problems are in the city...you see problem you move to subburb problem solved . let the gladiators fight it out...at least something good will be on TV to watch from the safety of your couch .


*Not so much a " loss" but a relacement of old values for a new set.

 

[YSSMAN]

[RANT]

There really isn't a simple answer for what is going on in our country today. I, quite frankly, am stunned by the "downfall" of this country in the past ten years, let alone the last five. I could easily blame it on television, videogames, music, etc and to a large extent, I would.

I think part of the problem is that violence, in particular that of gun-toting gang violence seems to be promoted in every facet of American culture today... Particularly the "Hip-Hop" music that seems to be so popular with suburban white kids and the black kids from the urban environment. You want to see what is wrong with this picture? Play freaking Saints Row or GTA, you might figure it out...

Why in God's name anyone would want to be like that is beyond me. Maybe it is because I can see the value in an education, hard work, and a "stable" lifestyle that I think that way. I have no idea... But I also have a very different view on gun ownership and use, one that follows that of the Second Amendment as guaranteed by our Bill of Rights in the American Constitution.

People tote the Second Amendment around as if it is their God-given right to carry a gun, and use it however they see fit. But if you read it...

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

The use of weaponry in this county should be here to protect the homeland and the republic, not your "block" from those Puerto Ricans down 42nd Street. Added to that, many guns should be used for hunting as well... Not capping some "foo" for looking at you the wrong way.

An education is part of the reason why this society seems to be crumbling at the knees. With massive ammounts of the public no longer focused on getting an education because they know that they can suclkle off the teat of the Government, get by on life by selling drugs, playing sports, or rapping... It is all obsurd!

There are way too many reasons why stupid crap like this happens, many of which I can't sort out in one "Quick Reply"... It makes me sick, all of it... One of these days it is going to come to the point at which the Feds are going to lock down the Second Amendment, limit it to hundreds of thousands of citizens, and that indeed will be a sad day. And who will I blame it on?

...The idiots who populate this nation, who do without an education, and feel no need to better themselves for any reason...

[/RANT]

 

[Solid Lifters]

[RANT]

There really isn't a simple answer for what is going on in our country today. I, quite frankly, am stunned by the "downfall" of this country in the past ten years, let alone the last five. I could easily blame it on television, videogames, music, etc and to a large extent, I would.

I think part of the problem is that violence, in particular that of gun-toting gang violence seems to be promoted in every facet of American culture today... Particularly the "Hip-Hop" music that seems to be so popular with suburban white kids and the black kids from the urban environment. You want to see what is wrong with this picture? Play freaking Saints Row or GTA, you might figure it out...

Why in God's name anyone would want to be like that is beyond me. Maybe it is because I can see the value in an education, hard work, and a "stable" lifestyle that I think that way. I have no idea... But I also have a very different view on gun ownership and use, one that follows that of the Second Amendment as guaranteed by our Bill of Rights in the American Constitution.

People tote the Second Amendment around as if it is their God-given right to carry a gun, and use it however they see fit. But if you read it...



The use of weaponry in this county should be here to protect the homeland and the republic, not your "block" from those Puerto Ricans down 42nd Street. Added to that, many guns should be used for hunting as well... Not capping some "foo" for looking at you the wrong way.

An education is part of the reason why this society seems to be crumbling at the knees. With massive ammounts of the public no longer focused on getting an education because they know that they can suclkle off the teat of the Government, get by on life by selling drugs, playing sports, or rapping... It is all obsurd!

There are way too many reasons why stupid crap like this happens, many of which I can't sort out in one "Quick Reply"... It makes me sick, all of it... One of these days it is going to come to the point at which the Feds are going to lock down the Second Amendment, limit it to hundreds of thousands of citizens, and that indeed will be a sad day. And who will I blame it on?

...The idiots who populate this nation, who do without an education, and feel no need to better themselves for any reason...

[/RANT]

Perhaps you should read more into the Second Amendment, including the people who wrote and prepared it, and what the true meaning of the Second Amendment is before ranting about it.

Spreading your lies are not going to solve the issue at hand.

What we need are stiffer penalties for criminals who use firearms in an illegal manner. It's a simple but effective way of reducing actions such as the scenario above.

We also must ease restrictions on firearm ownership and gun carry laws for honest, safe citizens.

Our criminal justice system have let us down. Our political system have let us down. The anti-gun prevaricators of our country have let us down and made us unsafe. It's time all people on either side of the gun issue realize this and help put a stop to it.

 

[Speedy Samurai]

I think the problem is... that everyone is human. The only thing humans have been able to do with any consistency is kill each other. I'd say america is doing pretty good in this area. A population that large and only that few deaths. Contrast that against, say Cambodia a couple of decades ago, or Rwanda, or...

 

[exigeracer]

I think the problem is... that everyone is human. The only thing humans have been able to do with any consistency is kill each other. I'd say america is doing pretty good in this area. A population that large and only that few deaths. Contrast that against, say Cambodia a couple of decades ago, or Rwanda, or...

You cannot be denying that it is a fairly large social problem in the country...

Denial - 👎

 

[Gil]

The actual problem stems from the changes in lifestyle, not just in America, but most of the world.

Back when I was a kid ('60s and 70's) the family unit was 2 parents, working together to train up their children. We were trained that for for everything that we did there was some consequence. For the good things there were good consequences. For the bad things, bad consequenses. Also, if you did something wrong in the neighborhood, you'd likely get some sort of punishment from the neighbor that caught you, who would tell your mama, then mama would also punish you. Whether that be a spanking, grounding, or finding every form of "hard labor" that needed to be done in the neighborhood for you to "atone" for your transgressions.
Then, people like Dr Spock, began "preaching" that punishment was not a good means for teaching children. He shifted the focus of parenting from teaching/training your children, to pschyoanalyzing them to find out "why" they were mis-behaving.
Add to that folks like Madeline O'hare, chasing "God" out of the schools, and the teaching of "morality" along with "God".

Do I believe that we should "impose" religion on each other? No. However, by taking "morality" and teaching the difference between "good and bad" out of the schools. And by removing consequences out of the equation, you get two generations of kids who are without a "moral compass", and don't really expect to be punished for their bad actions.

IMHO, it's pretty much a simple case of kids being kids and looking for boundaries. Because we believed that there was some more complex issue at hand, we haven't enforced the boundaries. In fact, we've gone as far as to make it illegal in a lot of cases to enforce the boundaries in any meaninful way. Add to that, with the "traditional" family unit becoming rarer and rarer, kids are growing up pitting dad against mom, after all if they don't live in the same house and mom says no, it's really easy to ask dad later, with no recrimination from mom cause they don't/won't/can't communicate.
Add to that, the ablility to pit the school system against the parents. All the kid has to do is cry "abuse". Even if it's a lie, the state will "tie the parents hands" in the area of enforcing discipline.
Now we have the gall to be suprised that children coming up now have no respect for their elders or any other authority?

This may turn into a "debate" on the merits/demerits of punishment. I just want to say first, that while I dote on my kids. I have tried to instill in them a value base that includes knowing that they will be facing consequences for mis-deeds. Have I spanked them? Yes, when they needed it.
Keep in mind that I have spanked them, I have not beaten them. There is a difference.
The newest and best punishment of late, is grounding the offender to clean the kitchen for 2-4 weeks. As there are eight of us living in this house, being grounded to the kitchen is a significant "hardship"

 

[YSSMAN]

Then, people like Dr Spock, began "preaching" that punishment was not a good means for teaching children. He shifted the focus of parenting from teaching/training your children, to pschyoanalyzing them to find out "why" they were mis-behaving.
Add to that folks like Madeline O'hare, chasing "God" out of the schools, and the teaching of "morality" along with "God".

Do I believe that we should "impose" religion on each other? No. However, by taking "morality" and teaching the difference between "good and bad" out of the schools. And by removing consequences out of the equation, you get two generations of kids who are without a "moral compass", and don't really expect to be punished for their bad actions.

I think you hit the nail right on the head there. Without kids having the "fear" of their parents and other adults in society, it leaves them open to do what they wish without a serious penalty. Although I being a product of the 1980s, a severe beating should anything go wrong was enough to keep me in line, as when I got the "look" from either Mom or Dad, I knew I was in trouble.

As for the lack of a "moral compass," I completely agree as well. As to having "God" a part of the equation, that I'm not so sure about it, but when you have teachers and professors across this country not setting guidelines as to what is "right" and what is "wrong" it certainly is a problem. Of course this gets into freedom of speech as well, given that anyone is entitled to their own opinion and a forum in which to state it, but the kids should be able to process the information enough themselves to be able to know what is good and what isn't.

Unfortunately both parents and teachers play far too much of a passive roll in kid's lives these days. When I'm at work (I work in a retail clothing store) I watch these kids run around without consequence, knocking things over, fighting with their siblings, and yet their parents do nothing. Added to that, we get people who come into the store looking for a job, fill out an application, and can't even take the test that goes with it correctly.

If we can't even hire people that are good enough to count $1 and $5 bills, what good will the youth of this nation be ten or fifteen years from now? Things have to be done from the start, and unfortunately I don't see that happening anymore. White suburban schools get the majority of the funding these days, and while they indeed deserve it, the inner city schools across the country need it more than anything. But when you get a student population that doesn't know the boundaries of what is "good" and "bad," don't want to learn, and for the most part keep otherwise good teachers away from the district... It is a combination that will eventually become a disaster that we may not be able to dig ourselves out of.

 

[Flame-returns]

You cannot be denying that it is a fairly large social problem in the country...

Denial - 👎

Ah but the misconception here is that the problem is getting worse.

Homicide rates for the Netherlands an Belgium (per 100,000 people):
15th century: 45
16th century: 25
17th century: 7.5
18th century: 5.5
19th century: 1.6
1900-1949: 1.5
1949 onwards: 0.9

Hey, thats a downward trend!

Italy:
15th century: 73
16th century: 47
17th century: 32
18th century: 10.5
19th century: 12.6
1900-1949: 3.2
1949 onwards: 1.5

Oh look another one!

Infact the only western European country where murders have gone up since 1949 is England and we still have one of Europe's lowest murder rates.

These figure do not include people killed in wars or in political decisions (such as Genocide or excecutions).

Man, I wish I lived in the peaceful 15th century where there was no rap or metal to inspire people to kill each other and there was worldwide love and hand holding and peace and not a murderer in the land...

 

[Speedy Samurai]

You cannot be denying that it is a fairly large social problem in the country...

Denial - 👎

I am not denying it, perhaps putting it into perspective. a large social problem vs. genocide. hmmm

 

[FoolKiller]

It has today become fashionable to have a bullet wound to show off..and a few gunfights undred your belt .

It doesn't matter if its a lie but some actually believe its jst part of a good resume to base a carreer on .

Thats what I mean by a " culture ' of violence. Its reflected in all genres of popular music and TV and movies. You grow up with this constant influence and lack of parental influence and like the man said " Its a computer ..you put crap in and crap comes out .

Laziness and lies is a moderately decent catch phrase but doesn't go near the entire source and root of the problem .

Actually it is a simplification. Yes, there is a growing culture of violence, but where does that come from? Pick these rappers if you wish. They are still a community leader. Eminem and his little group of buddies represent Detroit and the youth of Detroit look up to them. Rap music in itself is a lie glorifying a life of violence. When teens come from a poor upbringing they hear this music and see these guys from their neighborhood that got rich by doing this. It makes them think that they can do the same.

Then where did all the rappers come from? Some are blatantly lying because they were never in gangs and others used the rap to get out of the gangs, but then betray their own neighborhoods by glorifying the very thing they fled from.

I also have to disagree that violence is not glorified in all genres of popular music, TV, and movies. Teeny bopper pop tart music doesn't glorify violence, nor do I see it a lot in pop/rock music. There are dozens of TV shows and movies that can be watched without violence in them. I watch them all the time.

And then for the genres that do glorify violence you do have to ask, is the art creating violence in life or is life creating violence in art? When GTA sells record numbers or rap music tops the charts you have to ask yourself, what is wrong with society to make it accept this so willingly? Society took the first bits of violent media and sucked it in, absorbed it, and welcomed it. It is what society wanted and they took it. So, it is a chicken and the egg question. Was the problem always in society but the media brought it to light, or is the media creating the problem?

Your personal encounter with a drive-by is what brought this on. The drive-by shooting started with the automobile, long before rap. Al Capone was ordering them 80 years ago. The difference between gang violence then and today is that then they wore chalk-stripe suits and today they wear Ecko brand clothing.

*Not so much a " loss" but a relacement of old values for a new set.

Just the fact that you started this thread shows that this isn't true. It may be true for certain segments who have turned to more brutal ways of trying to survive, but for the average person this is not true.

I am not denying it, perhaps putting it into perspective. a large social problem vs. genocide. hmmm

But we don't live in Rwanda. Our concern is when this activity shows up at our door. Compared to genocide it is nothing, but compared to our own suburban lifestyles it is bad.


I would like to add this statistic on the US violent crimes and murder rate (per 100,000)

Year --- Population ----- Violent -- Murder
1990 --- 248,709,873 --- 731.8 --- 9.4
1991 --- 252,177,000 --- 758.1 --- 9.8
1992 --- 255,082,000 --- 757.5 --- 9.3
1993 --- 257,908,000 --- 746.8 --- 9.5
1994 --- 260,341,000 --- 713.6 --- 9.0
1995 --- 262,755,000 --- 684.5 --- 8.2
1996 --- 265,284,000 --- 636.6 --- 7.4
1997 --- 267,637,000 --- 611.0 --- 6.8
1998 --- 270,296,000 --- 566.4 --- 6.3
1999 --- 272,690,813 --- 523.0 --- 5.7
2000 --- 281,421,906 --- 506.5 --- 5.5
2001 --- 285,317,559 --- 504.5 --- 5.6
2002 --- 289,973,924 --- 494.4 --- 5.6
2003 --- 290,690,788 --- 475.8 --- 5.7
2004 --- 290,788,976 --- 465.5 --- 5.5

The rate of violent crimes and murder is dropping, despite what the media wants you to think.

Or you can read this news story:

U.S. Murder Rate Hits 40-Year Low

 

[exigeracer]

I am not denying it, perhaps putting it into perspective. a large social problem vs. genocide. hmmm

Yes but it is the governments' decision to deal with those problems. Your role in these issues is limited to who you elect, and from then on it is the governments' decision to deal with these issues, not yours.

Your issue is to prevent your children and neighbours of showing violent behavior and hatred towards others. This is something you have control over, and a way for you to save lives of those who you love and care for.