Simulation

[MisterSTig]

This goes back to the comment "how far will the players go?" - K. Yamauchi.

I am currently a tuner for a Subaru race team mainly working on Impreza WRX STi's. That being said, I have experiences about real life racing from Grand Touring, Rally, to Endurance races.

I know Gran Turismo isn't really geared to technical people but should they put another option for reality simulation? What I mean by simulation are things like: brake fading, engine wear, engine failures, etc. I don't mean a watered down failure like for example when the tires wear out completely, it should be just a matter of time before the car shreds the rubber into pieces.

Now while the damage feature is in works as I've heard about. Damage should be done properly for every single production car. By production car I mean something like a Nissan Skyline and not Ford Model T. By done properly I don't mean pre-determined damage panels, I am talking about crash test realistic. Suspension, engine, body, chassis, tires, etc. should be all affected. A 10-20 mph head on collision on a front engine car will totally bust the engine and you should either get it repaired or buy a new one.

Now my question is, how far do you want it to go based on the simulation?
Do you want option regarding each aspect of realism?
What kind of things do you like to be added to this realism?

I would like to see:
Brakes - fading, heat dissipation, etc.
Front Spoiler (Splitter)
Engine wear - spark plugs, pistons, cams, etc.
Drivetrain wear - Transmission, clutch, driveshafts
Supercharger Boost Gauge
Boost control
Independent weight control - rims, cabon fiber parts, titanium parts, etc.
Temperature effect
Tire pressure
Tire size
Real automatic transmission with tiptronic for cars that has it


This is all based on GT4.

 

[Twinturbo120]

Well I do like this idea, I think it's to hard to implant into the game right now. Since it's PD it'll take another 2 years (around there) for something like this to happen at the most. With that being said it could be a possibility for GT6. GT5 isn't up for this yet.

 

[Northstar]

Of course I would love to have more realistic things. However with the limitations of the PS3(as well as any other console) it is hard to simulate certain things.

 

[paskowitz]

As great an idea as that is it will NEVER happen. 950+ cars. KY will be rotting in a grave and it will take 2 generations of programmers to compute all that data.

 

[MisterSTig]

Damage aside, how far-fetched is the other things?

 

[3Axis]

Also, where is the engine braking when you downshift?

 

[Sertsa]

That is a cool idea. And, while I have not played GT5P (I don't have a PS3 but plan on getting one for GT5, or maybe just tomorrow), I think that unless the AI has drastically improved from GT4, it will be a frustrating experience. I'm picturing needing an extended pit or retire / pay for damages every time I took a "5 second penalty" level hit in GT4.

I think that downshifting with the revs far too high, or even extended lugging, should be able to damage the engine, though.

 

[Northstar]

Well, it would be hard to simulate a fading break rotor as well as temperature changes or wearing in general. GT4 had some power loss over time but that was it. I think other than that it would just be a matter of adding to the tuning options, which more options equals faster laps.

 

[MisterSTig]

Well, it would be hard to simulate a fading break rotor as well as temperature changes or wearing in general. GT4 had some power loss over time but that was it. I think other than that it would just be a matter of adding to the tuning options, which more options equals faster laps.

I was reading about that power loss thread theory yesterday but I thought it was wheel horsepower versus crank.

Anyways about the fading brake rotor, isn't the concept the same as "body rigidity" worsen overtime applied on GT4?

 

[SUPER NUMBBER]

Anything that makes the game closer to real life, I'm all for it 👍

The technology to do this is available; it's just not accessible to the consumer (pro racing teams have these ultra realistic sims, but they cost a pretty penny...)

 

[FLASH48]

You might see that stuff, in like GT9 or GT10!

 

[Timppaq]

We need this

 

[Scaff]

Also, where is the engine braking when you downshift?

Engine braking has been included since at least GT4, I know because I've tested it.

Read this and this for info on compression/engine braking and how it is modeled in GT4.

We need this

It would be nice, but no manufacturer would allow intrusion into the passenger cell, and th eother snag is that it takes a hefty bank of servers a good few days to model damage to that degree of accuracy.


Regards

Scaff

 

[Griffith500]

Numbered by me

1. Brakes - fading, heat dissipation, etc.
2. Front Spoiler (Splitter)
3. Engine wear - spark plugs, pistons, cams, etc.
4. Drivetrain wear - Transmission, clutch, driveshafts
5. Supercharger Boost Gauge
6. Boost control
7. Independent weight control - rims, cabon fiber parts, titanium parts, etc.
8. Temperature effect
9. Tire pressure
10. Tire size
11. Real automatic transmission with tiptronic for cars that has it

You've some good suggestions, so I'm just going to comment on them

1. This would be cool, but it'd have to match the characteristics of 1000 cars...!
2. GT4 has downforce modeled on the front and the rear. The aero model could benefit from some tweaking, though.
3. Definitely would like to see this, but not really expecting it for GT5.
4. As 3 above... same for suspension components etc.
5. Useful to look for problems, and to find the sweet spot in the rev-range 👍
6. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes! Bring it back, damnit!
7. Like this very much. GT4 was supposed to have something to this effect on the wheels; unsprung weight -> handling differences. Don't think it did, though.
8. On engine output? Also dependent on altitude, too.
9. Kind of important, though we'd need a suitable monitoring tool for tyre temps across the width.
10. Definitely! Another way of fine-tuning the handling. Plus it'll look cool
11. They've come close with some cars already, so I imagine we'll see this

I'd really like to see weather transitions, but if not, at least a choice of conditions for each race.

+Googolplex for the improved AI, seriously...

 

[Exorcet]

At this point I think the best thing for PD to do is leave GT as the money maker/high graphics/car culture game (I do appreciate some of the sacrifices in realism made for diversity [though the game, IMO, could be more realistic even with the amount of cars, especially with graphics being way way too high on PD's priorities]) and release an all out sim under a separate name. Something with ~ 12 cars, 10 tracks and no arcady options. DLC could expand it too.

 

[yeti]

At this point I think the best thing for PD to do is leave GT as the money maker/high graphics/car culture game (I do appreciate some of the sacrifices in realism made for diversity [though the game, IMO, could be more realistic even with the amount of cars, especially with graphics being way way too high on PD's priorities]) and release an all out sim under a separate name. Something with ~ 12 cars, 10 tracks and no arcady options. DLC could expand it too.

What's the point in that - the number of cars is immaterial to the physics engine... if they have the data - then the physics can handle it.

C.

 

[bullie77]

I would like to see:
Brakes - fading, heat dissipation, etc.
Front Spoiler (Splitter)
Engine wear - spark plugs, pistons, cams, etc.
Drivetrain wear - Transmission, clutch, driveshafts
Supercharger Boost Gauge
Boost control
Independent weight control - rims, cabon fiber parts, titanium parts, etc.
Temperature effect
Tire pressure
Tire size
Real automatic transmission with tiptronic for cars that has it

I share your opinion. And I believe it is do-able if you'd cut down on the 950+ cars. But that's the way PD has choosed for the series - overwhelming diversity of cars (too much if you'd ask me). So we must keep that in mind.

However, regarding the items I've put in BOLD, I think they're possible to implement on the game has it is (or has its going to be...). For example, tire pressure influence and their wear, or brake wear, even if in a somehow rudimentary way, can be simulated in order to come closer to real-life's variables that would influence how a car behave on a track on different occasions.

I think it better a rudimentary (although well done) effect rather then have none at all.

 

[Exorcet]

What's the point in that - the number of cars is immaterial to the physics engine... if they have the data - then the physics can handle it.

C.

The more accurate and detailed the physics, the more time it will take to virtually create a car. I am talking extreme detail with this more realistic version of GT. And they can always use DLC to add stuff.

 

[devildog666]

Damage aside, how far-fetched is the other things?

All these things sound great but the current system isn't capable enough to do all the added calculations that that would require i'm afraid. For example, right now the PS3 has to calculate every reflection you see in the body work, side and rearview mirror images, the outside enviroment as the car goes past, and everything that moves inside the car, just to name a few. All those things have to be processed realtime in relation to how fast the car is moving. While it's doing that, it's calculating the physics realtime in relation to how fast the car is moving.

Those are just some of the things the PS3 is doing simultaniously. It would take a brand new type of damage model, different from anything you have every seen in a video game to do all the added things MisterSTig is sugesting. Remember, every car responds differently. A 20mph crash in a Corvette isn't the same as the same crash in a BMW M5. The PS3 would have to take that difference in consideration and keep track of it.
The PS3 would also have to keep track of all the different wear items on each car (1000), and what effect the outside enviroment would have on each car in the game. That would also affect every car differently. Maybe Kaz can add those things in the future, but not now.

 

[tibiquera]

Sounds awesome, but how can you properly simulate the way a faulty part would work? Because in real life you can have manufacturing errors too. If you were to simulate that, it could be done on a random basis, which would definitely be frustrating. But if you can track the workings of all parts, how they react to wear and tear, and how much punishment they can get, I'd be more than happy.

 

[zuggerat]

I don't think it would take too much to have to impliment the replacement of tires, clutches, oil changes and other maintenance type repairs.

The thing is, it would have to be pretty simplified. "Your clutch is worn, please replace, 1200 Cr -- kthx" or "Oil change required, 80 Cr -- kthx", that type of deal. But I think it would add a lot to the realism of the game. I think it would be pretty cool, but anything beyond that and it might be too much for the PS3 to handle.

What say you...?

 

[Sertsa]

I think at some point we also have to remember that the Gran Turismo franchise has been far more successful than more realistic games, like Grand Prix Legends. (I had a demo on a PC that could barely run it, and I tried to drive with a joystick and keyboard. Just making it lap without crashing gave an enormous feeling of accomplishment, which was followed by dread since I knew the likelihood of not crashing in another, quicker lap was pretty slim.)

 

[Slurm]

The question "how far will players go?" is a very good one.

I don't think random engine failures have much place in a game. You have to draw the line somewhere.

 

[craste]

Oh my god!

I can't believe some of the comments I'm reading - a lot of this stuff could be implemented easily I mean with spark plugs becoming faulty they don't have to model an actual spark plug so you lift the bonnet in the game and check how well the tips are!!!

Your engine will probably misfire and splutter in the rev range which would be a piss of piss to program.

Also brake fade - they just program it so that after a few hard laps the braking power diminishes and if we ever have a logitech G30 with Pressurized pedals in the future the brake pedal will go all spongey to replicate this!!

its just clever programming to feel like this - like when you are drunk in a game like GTA or drugged up and the controls are all over the place it feels mad but they have not had to cut a human brain up to see why we feel that way and model it.

Same goes with loss of tyre pressure, clutches on their way out etc.

Anybody who has driven car with the clutch on it way out feels like driving a car with a CVT transmission the revs souring and you not progressing much more!!

And with the G30 (in development) they could move the biting point of the clutch to the very top of its travel etc. - Simply programming - they don't have to go out and model an actual clutch FFS!!

(It's as if they think there is a real engine under the bonnet - have I just burst somebody's bubble?)

3rd can of Stella - I'm annoyed. Burp.

 

[craste]

Damage aside, how far-fetched is the other things?

Mate I think most of the people on here think that PD would have to test each of the 950 cars until their clutches, spark-plug etc failed and fully record and analyze how long it took each part to fail!!

In which case PD will have this finished when Satan ice skates to work.

It will be called Gran Turismo 5.1 But it will be perfect.

The rest of us will be playing Forza 100 - but the cars will be personal space ships - like UFO's if you will, - thing's will of moved on a bit whilst PD were perfecting the past.

 

[MisterSTig]

Thanks for the input guys. I agree on the guy that said instead of taking time and analyzing it from each and every single car, they could do generalization and program it to their physics engine.


I would also like to add the sound. I know Polyphony Digital spends time recording each car as I've seen in the video, but it really doesn't translate well in the game. GT5P was a huge step up compare to GT4. GT4 was just a increase aggression of buzzing sound. I would like to have a sweet high note of a Ferrari engine, big deep gurgling sound of a V8 muscle, etc. Tire screech are top notch in my opinion.

 

[Smoke&Slide]

The question "how far will players go?" is a very good one.

I don't think random engine failures have much place in a game. You have to draw the line somewhere.

GPL had loss of oil pressure, that happens unexpectedly.

 

[tibiquera]

Oh my god!

I can't believe some of the comments I'm reading - a lot of this stuff could be implemented easily I mean with spark plugs becoming faulty they don't have to model an actual spark plug so you lift the bonnet in the game and check how well the tips are!!!

The problem isn't the programming, but how to reproduce what each part of the car does in practical terms. What that means is figuring out how a car would react to all of the possible parts in case any of them failed. Also not every car reacts in the same way to a mechanical failure (a 4-cylinder car would react differently to a V8 car if they lost one cylinder or the turbo, for example), and some cars can even take more punishment than others.

You obviously could go the easy route and just take a percentage of the performance away, but that wouldn't be very realistic.

On the other hand one thing that should definitely be added with damage is loose parts affecting aerodynamics.