SNAIL Sunday Night Future Forward - Open Discussion

[Alex ONeill]

@Lessen, there was damage on Sunday's it would just repair itself after a certain amount of time.

 

[Lessen]

@Lessen, there was damage on Sunday's it would just repair itself after a certain amount of time.

Ahh, that's right. Well, there's one thing to discuss...

 

[socalnatv]

Consider trying a PCars SNAIL type Sunday event on a different night than Sunday.
Consider doing it in place of the regular Thursday night practice ( which has had small numbers anyway ) or do it Friday/Saturday night.
That way the process can be tested over the course of several weeks, and not interrupt the regular Sunday event.

 

[aerolite]

The difference though is damage only gets fixed in PCars by pitting. Your race can be ruined by a turn one incident with damage on, and in a shorter race this would not allow any time to try and catch up. We run damage "visual only" in our Lounge, it's always fun to see who's car is a mess towards the end. Our series is more casual so damage off was an easy choice, but we do run with penalties on, which can slow you down enough to keep people honest.

 

[Alex ONeill]

The Sunday guys could run with us on wednesdays and mondays to get a feel for it and how the game works. It would help with figuring out how to incorporate the game for a Sunday league.

@aerolite, a turn 1 touch in Sunday snail would ruin your race just the same as damage. You would have to let everyone by and then have all of your points taken away for the inevitable IR.

 

[socalnatv]

The difference though is damage only gets fixed in PCars by pitting. Your race can be ruined by a turn one incident with damage on, and in a shorter race this would not allow any time to try and catch up. We run damage "visual only" in our Lounge, it's always fun to see who's car is a mess towards the end. Our series is more casual so damage off was an easy choice, but we do run with penalties on, which can slow you down enough to keep people honest.

I like the idea of visible damage on. Like you said, it would be interesting to see what everyone's car looks like at the end.

Edit...
I also prefer to stay tuning prohibited, but if that is not an option, everyone using the same tune would be a great solution.
Quick question about PCars. I've seen pics of some rigs that the PCars guys are using, and it seems most have an additional panel with switches for making tuning adjustments. Is it nescessary to install those?
I do remember being surprised at the amount of options that needed to be mapped to my wheel, and thinking there just isn't enough buttons to take care of that. And trying to keep track of where everything was.
Short attention span and short term memory issues ya know.

 

[TomMang_68]

I already stated my opinion but the more I think about it, the less it matters as to what game we choose to run SNAIL. What matters is that we have like minded drivers that have a standard they drive by.

I've been doing public lobbies on PCars to get a better feel for the game but wow, there are some real "winners" there.

shameless plug:

For anyone who hasn't tried PITS or the "The Lobanaro Lounge" (by invitation only) both host top notch respectable drivers, although you may want to say a few extra prayers after a night at the lounge

 

[irmopars]

Those details need to stay as they are in the current Sunday series I feel. Anything that can be done to provide the same general feel should probably be used.

Spec cars
Clear/fixed weather
No damage
Short races
No pit stops

Anything that changes should be a result of a need due to game limitations. Otherwise it becomes a new series, rather than a transition.

If there's no damage, I think we should be able to get back Loban's drivers, and increase our numbers like before

 

[Whitey093]

Everyone should try PITS and/or Lobanaro's Lounge as suggested to see what pcars is and isn't before declaring a big shift. Also if we can show that many are willing to join these existing leagues and they end up liking the pcars experience that may be the answer we need regarding what to do. Right now a lot of people talk up how great pcars is but dont support the snail series who have paved the way for this transition. I would be in PITS now if it didn't interfere with snail GT-1 series on Wednesday night and i was unaware of the Lobanaro Lounge until now so i will have to check that out.

 

[Lessen]

The racing does need to stay spec. That's the single biggest thing that makes Sunday SNAIL what it is and has always been. Spec racing is the heart and soul of SNAIL. I for one have confidence that the spec aspect of PC2 will be much more refined than it is in PC1 (amongst other things), which is one reason why I advocate for a move to the 2nd rendition of the title. (Keep in mind this will be Slightly Mad Studio's 2ND game on PS4hardware and only PD's first.)

Test Series: I'm not sure there is any benefit to this idea to be frank. I mean, the issues that need attention are generally all procedural. Running a "test room" once a week doesn't do much for that. The brass can figure that stuff out without holding extra official unofficial events. I do however encourage Sunday-ers to spend some time in PITS and Lobbanero to become familiar with the physics and general usage if they already have the capabilities. No need to create a third option here.

Certainly, the sooner the BOD makes a decision the better. I'm sure they will allow a reasonable timeframe for people to upgrade, but they will surely want to make it clear that a major change WILL be happening

 

[racingchamp30]

I don't have a PS4 yet so i will still host practice for Thursday nights and hosting to my respective division Sunday night official racing. I know alot have gone onto Asetto Corsa, Project Cars on the PS4 but i will stay with GT6 for the foreseeable future.

 

[JamCar0ne]

I have both a PS4 Pro & PCars1 and still prefer PS3/GT6. PCars has far too many glitches in it which ruins the fun factor for me. GT6 simply has a better user interface and is more refined. I am also a firm believer in SNAIL maintaining the Spec aspect for Sunday nights. There is no such thing as a gentleman's agreement for a base tune, someone will always tweak just a little more for an edge.

 

[Lessen]

There is no such thing as a gentleman's agreement for a base tune, someone will always tweak just a little more for an edge.

Agreed. For an informal gathering it's cool, but not for a formalized league. It needs to be largely controllable and policeable, I mean.. how many people used to/still do adjust brake bias?.?.. But I suppose that's a different discussion. Moving on.

 

[pakicote]

Personally, I would not come back if Snail goes to Project cars with fixed setups, some default setups make some cars undriveable and I just don’t enjoy it. My ps3 is retired and I don’t want to spend more money to fix it, so I’m just waiting for GTsport to come out so snail adopts it and come back to race on Sundays. If Snail adopts PC 2 and the transition is smooth then I’ll get the game for sure and race with you guys.

 

[GTLehman]

Speaking of gentleman's agreements and tuning: I think the 'arrive and drive format has been working great on Mondays. Not knowing where we are racing levels the field a bit. If we move forward and allow tuning, but not announcing the track or the car until Sunday, it would balance things out at least a bit. Even with SNAIL's current format of no tuning, there's an advantage to be gained by those who can spend five hours a day, Wednesday- Sat practicing combos over those who can't.
If we opt for PCars with tuning, lets announce the track and car at official practice Sunday afternoon. It would kind of kill the system of offering the winners the choice to choose combos, but it would be the best way to level the field. Of course it would also kill Thursday night practice cameraderie, so the compromise may be to let the winners choose/announce the car but keep the track a draw from the hat Sunday sfternoon.

 

[Lessen]

I still stand with not reinventing the wheel.

 

[M1SS-D3V10US]

What I loved the most about S.N.A.I.L., back in the day, was the fact that was a Spec Racing Series with No Tuning Allowed. GT5 & GT6 made this easy, but allowed you to use aids if you wanted, which was a personal choice, and usually made drivers slower, but it gave drivers the control they needed. I love the idea that all the drivers have the exact same car, with the Pros & Cons the car has to offer. The selected vehicle was something every driver had to learn and had to get to know the car and its personality. Finding a way to work with it and use that to your advantage, or find a way to prevent the car from doing something undesirable. All the while knowing the same issue of the car could be used to your advantage or your disadvantage if given the chance. In my opinion, this is what made the S.N.A.I.L. series so much fun. All the races had battles taking place regards of their skill level. The Spec Racing Series really allowed the driver skill to be the main factor of the race, not the tune so you weren't getting beat by a car with a better tune, but a better driver. This really promoted the idea of practicing and having practice nights. Some drivers would offer help to other drivers to help them with whatever to make them faster for the sake of a better racing experience. Just Drive The Car. It was that simple. The car is exactly the same for all drivers and the races had a lot of heated battles for position and lots of Door-to-door racing was common place. A mistake by a driver could cost them a position or 6 because of the freight train of cars running nose to tail. When I discontinued running S.N.A.I.L.S., real Life was getting in the way. However, there were 4 divisions of drivers with talks of 5 or even 6 division in the works, because it was so wildly popular. And now the series is dwindling - I think we need to figure out why.

Mopar brought up a good point about the damage setting and it's the reason there was a series split, PITS & LOBANS room. This is something that needs to be addressed. LOBANS room managed to take a lot of drivers with PITS. I think it would be wise to consider the reason why that split happened. Again, back in the day, GT5 and GT6 didn't have the option of damage and yes there were some reports that were filed on varies things, like contact, but that was pretty rare, as I recall. The most common report was corner cutting, and even then that wasn't that big of an issue as it could have been. The drivers treated the race as if it were real. Basically, there was a No Contact rule in place, but with the understanding that as long as neither driver suffered as a result of the contact, it was not a big deal, unless a report was filed, and then it was investigated. I understand the need for damage in Project Cars was to promote clean racing. How many drivers left the series because of damage? It would seem that drivers want to be able to get back into the race in the event that something should happen.

I know a lot of drivers that like to tune their cars for every race, and that's fine. I think S.N.A.I.L. could support both a Spec Series and a Tuned Series. However, I think that should be something that talked about more AFTER getting drivers to come back to the series. I think the S.N.A.I.L. series needs to figure out what it has lost and bring that back again. Having the S.N.A.I.L. series on multiple platforms is fine and on multiple games. But you cannot just make a series with the same basic rules and call it S.N.A.I.L. when it doesn't feel or look like it's part of the S.N.A.I.L. brand.

As for what game(s) to support - make a couple of polls.
* What platform(s) do people have? (PS3, PS4, XBOX 360, XBOX 1, PC, etc., etc.) (check all that apply)
* What games do you have? (GT6, Project Cars 1, iRacing, etc., etc.) (check all that apply)
* What game(s) would you like to see SNAIL run? (GT6, GT Sport, Project Cars1, Project Cars 2, iRacing, etc., ect.) (check all that apply)
* Which days would Online Racing works best for you? (check all that apply)
* What time would Online Racing work best for you? (List times stated by Eastern time zone)
* What kind of racing do you like? (Spec, Limited Tuning, Moderate Tuning, Full Tuning) (List what each would encompass) (check all that apply)

Just my 2¢.

 

[Lessen]

Just my $20.

Fixed it dear.

I kid, I kid!

 

[Rednose58]

Thanks for all the comments, opinions and ideas so far. Keep going.

Just so by the way... we sneaked in a Project Cars test night on May 28 and maybe we can get some comments from those who participated how that worked. See here for the set-ups. Here and here and here for some video.

 

[Lessen]

Ok, in all seriousness. The questionnaire is great, but what really needs to be known is which of all those factors will create a successful SNAIL Sunday league?

Thats easy... all the factors that outline the current format.

SNAIL isn't bleeding because the format didn't work. We know it did because it was 8 divs when I raced and it's been virtually unchanged for far longer than the current spiral. The cut is due in full to competition and the fact that there are several titles now that offer a better overall gaming experience in the eyes of many people. There is nothing you can do about that. What can be done however is to offer a solid product. A product that is tried and true and caters to a certain market that nobody else is tapping into.

Spec Racing.

 

[aerolite]

brought up a good point about the damage setting and it's the reason there was a series split, PITS & LOBANS room. This is something that needs to be addressed. LOBANS room managed to take a lot of drivers with PITS. I think it would be wise to consider the reason why that split happened.

A well written post sharkie, but for the sake of people reading that don't know, I do need to clarify the above statement. The damage setting being on was just a small part of why Mike and I decided to leave and start our own race night. I won't get into the other reason's as it's not pertinent to this discussion. Other then me and Mike leaving PITS, I believe there is only one other driver that races with us who doesn't race with them anymore. We did everything in our power not to interfere with anything that Alex and Zii do and still completely support their efforts.

There are quite a few of us now who have participated in the three different series (ours, Lessen's and Alex & Zii's) and have a good overview of what works well and what doesn't. It's been a great and fun learning experience and I hope our opinions and thoughts help the BOD's of SNAIL in their decision.

 

[M1SS-D3V10US]

A well written post sharkie, but for the sake of people reading that don't know, I do need to clarify the above statement. The damage setting being on was just a small part of why Mike and I decided to leave and start our own race night. I won't get into the other reason's as it's not pertinent to this discussion. Other then me and Mike leaving PITS, I believe there is only one other driver that races with us who doesn't race with them anymore. We did everything in our power not to interfere with anything that Alex and Zii do and still completely support their efforts.

There are quite a few of us now who have participated in the three different series (ours, Lessen's and Alex & Zii's) and have a good overview of what works well and what doesn't. It's been a great and fun learning experience and I hope our opinions and thoughts help the BOD's of SNAIL in their decision.

Thank you Aerolite.
I realized I most likely didn't have the full story, which is why I chose to only address the comment made by Mopar. In this case, it was about damage, as that's the only reason I have heard for the split. Of course, there is always more than one side to a story, but I felt it would only be fair to write about the one point that had been brought to my attention, "Damage". I didn't want to get into rumors or hearsay so keep my viewpoint limited to that one point of contention.

Now that you've enlightened us with your comment regarding there were/are other factors resulting in the split. I would be remised if I didn't admit to being curious to know those other reasons. You say those other reasons ar not pertinent to this discussion, and I'll leave it alone. I'm not trying to pry, I will merely offer this one thought:
The more information that's known, the more helpful it might be. Those "Other Reason" you feel may not be pertinent in direct relation to the current situation, but that information might be germane to the main topic of this discussion and may shed some light on the matter;

"Why are the numbers for S.N.A.I.L. dwindling"?
"How can we increase the S.N.A.I.L. member numbers?"

 

[JLBowler]

I can chime in a give a reason for the dwindling numbers on Sunday night. It's simply that GT6 is nearing the end of it's lifespan and there are other options (games / PS4) that are newer and more attractive than GT6. The same thing happened at the end of GT5's lifespan. SNAIL was down to 2 divisions and as soon as GT6 launched, SNAIL was back to 4 divisions within a month and eventually to 8 divisions.

The format is just fine. The issue is trying to take that format to another game and platform without completely gutting it. Personally, I'm hoping that E3 produces some details about all of our options and makes future planning a little easier by taking out some of the guesswork.

 

[aerolite]

Thank you Aerolite.

The more information that's known, the more helpful it might be. Those "Other Reason" you feel may not be pertinent in direct relation to the current situation, but that information might be germane to the main topic of this discussion and may shed some light on the matter;

"Why are the numbers for S.N.A.I.L. dwindling"?
"How can we increase the S.N.A.I.L. member numbers?"

Me and Mike just wanted to do something with a different format, and something a little more laid back. Slightly shorter races with a different car and track each week. We also start and finish earlier which suits us old guys better

Bowler and Lessen hit it on the head for numbers dwindling.

 

[Lessen]

The BIG pCARS/PS4 issues: (from my view)

1. Replays & policing IRs. The IR system is an integral part of the SNAIL format and provide a fair option for the competition itself to keep the racing clean without the need for massive amounts of race reviews on a regular basis. This is a problem because of the way race replays are saved in Project CARS. The replay is saved in the same manner a "game save" would be and is thusly not sharable. There could be workarounds, but it will still be at the hands of somebody within the race lobby in question. SNAIL has always had a limited-bias approach to how reviews are done so this is a difficult situation to tackle and maintain the same integrity the current process provides. [I think it is important to state that this issue MAY NOT BE RELATED DIRECTLY TO PROJECT CARS, but to the PlayStation 4 in general. It is not unreasonable to consider SNAIL could run into the same problem with GT Sport.]
2. Limited car/track possibilities. The current SNAIL selection process basically goes through combos like a fish does water and no other game title has a car list like GT (is there even any information at all yet about the GTS car list?). A severely limited car list has the potential to turn the selection process mundane in a short time frame. I don't know that there is much that can be done about this other than possibly adding other factors to the decision (ie. Time of Day, Select weather situations like fog/haze/ overcast etc. - things that would have an affect on the grip level or visibility)
3. Reverse Grid procedure. I honestly do not keep up on the pCARS 2 information so I'm not sure if this is something that will be included, but currently there is no option. Series' that do utilize reverse grid typically do formation laps with manually called rolling starts. This obviously is not ideal for SNAIL Sunday.

That's all I can think of at the moment, but those are probably the biggest issues.

 

[M1SS-D3V10US]

The BIG pCARS/PS4 issues: (from my view)

1. Replays & policing IRs. The IR system is an integral part of the SNAIL format and provide a fair option for the competition itself to keep the racing clean without the need for massive amounts of race reviews on a regular basis. This is a problem because of the way race replays are saved in Project CARS. The replay is saved in the same manner a "game save" would be and is thusly not sharable. There could be workarounds, but it will still be at the hands of somebody within the race lobby in question. SNAIL has always had a limited-bias approach to how reviews are done so this is a difficult situation to tackle and maintain the same integrity the current process provides. [I think it is important to state that this issue MAY NOT BE RELATED DIRECTLY TO PROJECT CARS, but to the PlayStation 4 in general. It is not unreasonable to consider SNAIL could run into the same problem with GT Sport.]
2. Limited car/track possibilities. The current SNAIL selection process basically goes through combos like a fish does water and no other game title has a car list like GT (is there even any information at all yet about the GTS car list?). A severely limited car list has the potential to turn the selection process mundane in a short time frame. I don't know that there is much that can be done about this other than possibly adding other factors to the decision (ie. Time of Day, Select weather situations like fog/haze/ overcast etc. - things that would have an affect on the grip level or visibility)
3. Reverse Grid procedure. I honestly do not keep up on the pCARS 2 information so I'm not sure if this is something that will be included, but currently there is no option. Series' that do utilize reverse grid typically do formation laps with manually called rolling starts. This obviously is not ideal for SNAIL Sunday.

That's all I can think of at the moment, but those are probably the biggest issues.

GT Sport Car List
GT Sport Track List (I suspect there will be more track locations or configuration)
GT Sport Car Class

 

[JLBowler]

If GTS comes through with 140 cars and 27 layouts that makes for 3,780 unique combos. At the rate of two new combos each week, it would take 39 years to run every single one of them. PCars is currently listed at 138 cars and 56 layouts which would take twice as long to go through every combo.

I'm aware that some may be very similar to each other but we really probably only need 4 to 5 years worth of combos and both games cover that without a problem.

 

[M1SS-D3V10US]

If GTS comes through with 140 cars and 27 layouts that makes for 3,780 unique combos. At the rate of two new combos each week, it would take 39 years to run every single one of them. PCars is currently listed at 138 cars and 56 layouts which would take twice as long to go through every combo.

I'm aware that some may be very similar to each other but we really probably only need 4 to 5 years worth of combos and both games cover that without a problem.

I liked the 3 car/track combos for the week, as it gave variety for the racing for the night (qualifying, race, and race reverse grid). I can understand if the format was shortened to 2 car/track combos a week.

BTW, It's Nice to see you again Bowler!

 

[Lessen]

Ahhh, nice analytics JL. I Thought there was much less in PC. Good to know, although the proportion of street cars to race cars and REALLY fast race cars is probably much different. Vs. GT6 that is.

 

[Dr_Strange]

You CAN run tuning prohibited in PCars. All cars have the same tune...yes they may start with varying levels of fuel in rare cases, but at least they all are tuned the same. You can turn down fuel use and tire wear...and with the shorter races of SNAIL these become non issues anyways.

Gentlemen agreements are BS.

I have driven almost every car in PCars with their base tune and they are all drivable. Some are more challenging than others but the same can be said for GT6. So no matter what combo is chosen some one is going to rejoice and others cry

As was stated, the PCars replays are basically unusable to police certain things.

Reverse grids have to be done manually...which can become time consuming.

The PITS/Lobanaro lounge split was primarily based on damage settings....PCars full damage could leave you on the side of the road at turn one (at the beginning of a 45min race) with a wheel off your car and no way to move...with nothing short of a "sorry bro". The hardcore elite did not care...primarily because they were the ones rarely suffering the damage...read into that what you will. The nightly races tended to take longer and longer as fuller lobbies and weak connections along with zero enforcement of start times made race nights run 1-2 hours longer than it should as lobbies were started and restarted waiting for certain people to return who never did. Frustration ensued. So the split occurred. I have been pretty busy with life/work and haven't been to participate in the Lobanaro lounge since its inception but I intend to soon Some of them are reading this and wondering who the hell this is

Anyways...PCars is great fun. It is possible to run tuning prohibited. But you can't run changing weather or have pit stop...but snail never ran that anyway.

Number of combos will never rival GT6...but GTS will not either. They are removing all the cool old cars of GT6 which I always liked.