So invading other countries is ok now?

Originally posted by askia47
so we cant support palestine?

No one here is telling you who you can or can't support. Only you can make that decision.

However, I should point that it is entirely possible to support the cause of the Palestinian people; a proper soverign Palestinian state alongside Israel, a place where both sides can live in dignity and peace, an end to 50+ years of conflict, without hating one side or the other.

Only by understanding its long and sordid history can one even begin to formulate a reasonable view of what's going on there. Unfortunately, these days, almost no one bothers to take the time to do this anymore. They base their politcal views on 10 second sound bites and TV footage of tanks crushing houses. I wager the vast majority of people in the western world can't even place the West Bank or the Gaza strip on a map, let alone tell you what is really happening there.

I don't know about you folks, but the day I saw jets fly into buildings and three thousand people die in my hometown, was the day I got to understanding the Muslim and Arab world real fast.


///M-Spec
 
I have to say that I am suprised and impressed that there are people on here that are taking the stance that they are taking towards Israel. I was beginning to think I was the only one who at least looked into their history and did a little studying on the present situation.

:)
 
Originally posted by neon_duke
By not supporting Israel, you're supporting the Palestinian terrorists

I don't support either organisation - I support the state of Palestine but not the terrorists and - gasp - I'm completely against the state of Israel including all US aid for it. Pull the **** out.
 
Originally posted by M5Power
I don't support either organisation - I support the state of Palestine but not the terrorists and - gasp - I'm completely against the state of Israel including all US aid for it. Pull the **** out.
👍

mspec and neon, im not completely oblivious to what the history is. speaking of history have either of you checked out the story about the USS liberty? my comment about not being interested was specifically about all the details. I know that israel doesn't specifically target civilians when firing air to surface missiles at crowded streets, there are bound to be terrorists caught up there. but its not exactly a level playing field. get US aid out of there, pull back to at least the 1970's borders and send US troops in to keep the peace. i guarantee you all suicide bombings will stop.

hang on, didn't i say i wouldn't continue posting here? :S doh!

P.S. all the victims of the september 11th attacks have my undying sympathy.
 
Originally posted by Nightmage82
i guarantee you all suicide bombings will stop.
The suicide bombings are the least of my worries. If we'd pulled out of Israel before September 11, it wouldn't have happened. As we continue to support Israel - and not Islam - Islamic extremists want us dead, at all cost.

Truthfully, I don't care about the violence in Israel because no-one will do anything to stop it. There's a large suicide blast in Israel, then Sharon attacks Palestine, then another suicide blast, and Sharon "shows restraint" by not destroying 20 more rock-wielding Palestinian kids. Save them for next time. The best thing that can come of the MidEast situation is simply if America removes itself from the middle - it's the easiest way to defuse future terrorist attacks in the US.

The religiously-motivated violence WILL NOT stop in the MidEast. It's only stopped in Ireland because the two sides decided to give a little and get a little - that won't happen in the MidEast because neither side will back down, especially not Israel with the United States behind it.
 
m5 power would you mind if i asked you where you were when the planes hit, i see you live in manhattan. i obviously watched the tv but just wanted to ask someone who was in new york what the atmosphere was like for you guys.. i can't imagine !!
 
Originally posted by jay wilkie
m5 power would you mind if i asked you where you were when the planes hit, i see you live in manhattan. i obviously watched the tv but just wanted to ask someone who was in new york what the atmosphere was like for you guys.. i can't imagine !!

At the time I was living in Colorado, actually, so I was watching on TV also - the only New York 'disaster' I can attest to being a part of was that blackout we had two months ago, and even then I was just stuck in traffic the whole time.
 
Originally posted by Nightmage82
mspec and neon, im not completely oblivious to what the history is.

Prove it.

Originally posted by Nightmage82
speaking of history have either of you checked out the story about the USS liberty?

Yes, I have. Now, tell me what it has to do with the current situation.

Originally posted by Nightmage82
my comment about not being interested was specifically about all the details.

Again, that would be ignorant.


Originally posted by Nightmage82
I know that israel doesn't specifically target civilians when firing air to surface missiles at crowded streets, there are bound to be terrorists caught up there. but its not exactly a level playing field.

My wife tells me the education system in the UK is top notch. But judging by your inability to construct a coherent paragraph here, I would say it still needs improvement.


Originally posted by Nightmage82
get US aid out of there, pull back to at least the 1970's borders and send US troops in to keep the peace. i guarantee you all suicide bombings will stop.

Think through what you are saying here. Trading Israeli occupation for American occupation will finally make the Palestinians happy?


Originally posted by Nightmage82
P.S. all the victims of the september 11th attacks have my undying sympathy.

That's nice... but since there doesn't seem to be any here, why are you telling us this?
 
Originally posted by ///M-Spec


I don't know about you folks, but the day I saw jets fly into buildings and three thousand people die in my hometown, was the day I got to understanding the Muslim and Arab world real fast.


///M-Spec

Hi Mspec....yes, if Bush had bothered to do his homework and understood the Islamic plight before 9/11, none of this would have happened...

he just though everything was hunky-dorey in the east...and continued with his beer and pretzels...

woooooops....thats a mistake he'll never forget...

and the moral?....

know your enemy for he studies your every move
 
Originally posted by TurboSmoke
Hi Mspec....yes, if Bush had bothered to do his homework and understood the Islamic plight before 9/11, none of this would have happened...

While I've disagree with many aspects of US foreign policy, your statement sounds suspiciously like blaming the victim as the cause for an attack while ignoring the actions of the attacker.

If a woman is raped, do you argue that she probably "brought it on herself" by wearing suggestive clothing?


Originally posted by TurboSmoke
he just though everything was hunky-dorey in the east...and continued with his beer and pretzels...

And you Europeans have the nerve to say Americans are culturally insensitive.


Originally posted by TurboSmoke
woooooops....thats a mistake he'll never forget...

and the moral?....

know your enemy for he studies your every move

Everything simple in the mind of a simpleton.


///M-Spec
 
Originally posted by TurboSmoke
Hi Mspec....yes, if Bush had bothered to do his homework and understood the Islamic plight before 9/11, none of this would have happened...

he just though everything was hunky-dorey in the east...and continued with his beer and pretzels...

woooooops....thats a mistake he'll never forget...

and the moral?....

know your enemy for he studies your every move

Oooooohh. :rolleyes:

Another vapid comment. Nice. I've given up hope that you'll ever make a point and/or back it up.

Your deep hatred of America and everything American, which oozes out of almost all of your non-GT related posts, is expressed in the the very same things you ridicule about America, except in your case it's escalated to an obsessively malicious degree. It's hateful. It's hypocritical.

I know your comments are inconsequential, but they are so irritating and I simply must tell you so. The urge to point out your ignorance is irresistible.
 
Originally posted by milefile
Oooooohh. :rolleyes:

Another vapid comment. Nice. I've given up hope that you'll ever make a point and/or back it up.

Your deep hatred of America and everything American, which oozes out of almost all of your non-GT related posts, is expressed in the the very same things you ridicule about America, except in your case it's escalated to an obsessively malicious degree. It's hateful. It's hypocritical.

I know your comments are inconsequential, but they are so irritating and I simply must tell you so. The urge to point out your ignorance is irresistible.


i think i'll take most of your response as a compliment....coz m/f, i dont know how else to respond to a comment that closes all arguements and only offers recourse into a personal slanging match....and m/f i aint taking that route with you...you'll have to take your pent up hatred and point it at someone else....;)
 
here's all i'm gonna say because i got class in 20 minutes, and it's impossible to change a person's opinion too easily and i'm just not gonna bother trying against anyone. people have a tendency to be stubborn and everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

you guys gotta start watching foreign news reports. if you did bother to watch, a good number of suicide bombings happened AFTER something drastic caused by Isreal. you would know that only if you were to watch both local and foreign (especially arab) news and to take both.

keep in mind that almost all news is propaganda in order to get people to change their minds on a topic and to support current government views. the only way u'll get the whole story is to see both sides of it since both sides overexaggerate everything. the thing here, is that censorship in the western world is too great and so the true extent of anything is never shown now is it?

i'm totally against the suicide bombings....but i can understand where the disparity to drive a person to that extent comes from. I'm also completely against Isreal's actions in Palistine. they have broken a good number of UN laws that they have agreed to comply by. this has been proven by numerous non profit organizations working towards humanitarian causes. but the information has never been taken seriously or analysed thanks to media censorship by minimising exposure to it.

my 2 cents...off to accounting...DAMN my prof...i HATE her
 
agree totally with emad.. the one thing about news channels is they always sway towards their own country obviously.. i always get a bit mistified when the fox news channel says .." fair and balanced news... " when they are so one sided...
 
Originally posted by emad
here's all i'm gonna say because i got class in 20 minutes, and it's impossible to change a person's opinion too easily and i'm just not gonna bother trying against anyone. people have a tendency to be stubborn and everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

That sounds a little like relative moralism to me. I cannot deny that freedom of thought and expression is a crucially important right. However, I feel that too often people mistake freedom of expression as a compensation for freedom of thought which they seldom use.


Originally posted by emad
you guys gotta start watching foreign news reports. if you did bother to watch, a good number of suicide bombings happened AFTER something drastic caused by Isreal. you would know that only if you were to watch both local and foreign (especially arab) news and to take both.

And that something drastic by Isreal is usually a strike against militants, which was in turn, caused by a suicide bombing or gunman attack. I don't need to watch Al Jazeera to conclude that there is a vicious cycle of violence occuring there.


Originally posted by emad
keep in mind that almost all news is propaganda in order to get people to change their minds on a topic and to support current government views. the only way u'll get the whole story is to see both sides of it since both sides overexaggerate everything. the thing here, is that censorship in the western world is too great and so the true extent of anything is never shown now is it?

Censorship in the western world is too great? Compared to Arab-Islamic media? Are you serious? Do you actually expect us to believe that the various state owned and run Arab-Islamic media companies, based in one of the most intellectually repressed societies in world, excersise more fairness and objectivity than western media outlets?

Give me break.👎


Originally posted by emad
i'm totally against the suicide bombings....but i can understand where the disparity to drive a person to that extent comes from. I'm also completely against Isreal's actions in Palistine. they have broken a good number of UN laws that they have agreed to comply by. this has been proven by numerous non profit organizations working towards humanitarian causes. .

This is the only thing I agree with. Israeli leadership has failed to take positive actions to end the stalemate. It has failed to curb new settlements and tightening security and putting up walls is not going to address the core issues. On the other hand, Palestinian leadership has failed equally. They have failed to hold militants to a ceasefire and have failed to unite on key issues. Its pathetic to see when two people who claim to want peace do nothing to achieve it.


Originally posted by emad
but the information has never been taken seriously or analysed thanks to media censorship by minimising exposure to it.

Media censorship can only occur when a government entity places restrictions on what it can tell the public. If the media is has no access to information, then it has nothing to tell, hence, not censorship. If the media has information, but chooses not to tell the public, its not censorship.

But the problem is not the media. The problem is that most other people in the world don't give a damn for the most part. Sure, people pay lip service when they need to and try to sound sanctiminious about it, but when the buck stops, no one is interested in fixing Isreal and Palestine's problem.

If we really, really did want to help the situation, the entire occupied territories would be COVERED with UN peacekeepers from all different, neutral countries. Isreal would have aid and trade sanctions imposed on it not only from the United States, but from Europe and Asia too, until a formal declaration of peace has been signed, and a new Palestinian state is ratified.

So the biggest problem isn't that the two key players in the struggle aren't interested in doing what is nessessary for peace. The biggest problem is that no one else seems to be either.


///M-Spec
 
keep in mind that almost all news is propaganda in order to get people to change their minds on a topic and to support current government views

How little you understand free society.
 

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