Sobering Thoughts About "The Definitive Racing Simulator"

[Scaff]

Alright, I was just curious. It seems like a lot of Forza bashing gets overlooked but GT bashing gets you nicked. I'm not saying that's how it happens, it's just what I have observed.

To be honest from the staff's point of view is more the bashing we have an issue with rather than the topic in discussion (which is were GT Planet differs from a lot of other sites).

The report button gets used and we look at the thread (on occasion we stumble upon an issue - but from my personal experience its the report button that leads me to most issues), if a problem exists a warning/infraction gets issued.

I fully understand that from a members point of view its not always clear if an issue has been addressed, as a lot of moderation happens in private. I however do use public warnings, very often aimed generally at all members posting in a thread, to try and get things back on track (and then go to private warnings and infractions if the public warning is ignored).

Most discussion involving the comparison of GT and Forza ends up to be a flame-fest to be honest. All one has to do is look through any of the numerous threads that spring up throughout the website. Obviously the GT side is worse here because of the nature of the population, I'm sure it would be the exact opposite on a Forza forum.

Not all end in chaos, but a lot do and they often need a firm hand.

I would have to say from my personal experience that its not that the GT side is worse (both sides in any argument can be just as bad), its more that being a GT based site we have more members who fall on the GT side of a discussion.

If you said that 5% (a figure I have made up for illustration purposes) of any given side are asshats, then with us having a significantly greater proportion of GT fans, they will always seem to be worse because we simply get more of them (and thats exactly why a Forza site would be the opposite).

And I try to avoid the GT5 sub-forum since there is almost nothing of value there for me. Anything I ever need to know about GT5 is posted by Jordan on the news page...which I do frequent quite a bit.

At times I wish I had that luxury, but we need to moderate the whole site.

I hate how GT4 is still measured and compared to more modern games. it was completed in 2004.... I think enough time has passed that the "PS2" racer can be retired from modern gaming and simple be a nostalgic experience. And the comparisons just aren't relevant anymore. IMO NFS Shift is more enjoyable "today" than GT4 "today". Like toys to a 14 year old ,It was great 5 years ago....

I personally think it depends on what you are looking at and what you enjoy from the game in question. Simply because its a PS2 title should not automatically make it irrelevant in this day and age.

Richard Burns Rally is a great example, nothing for console or PC has come close to it for a rally sim since it game out, its as relevant and enjoyable today as it was at launch.

but, this is a gt forum so isn't that what most people know?

An open mind never hurts and even if it is what most people know that does allow the AUP to be ignored, nor does it remove the need for basic manners when posting.

Speaking of the AUP, you know you should be using capital letters correctly when posting.


Regards

Scaff

 

[McLaren]

Forza Physics are not that good and that what got me mad is I spent alot of money preparing for F3. Dan got me so pumped with that physics talk, but in the end same thing. I remember watching a show Most Expensive cars. It was featuring a Porsche Carrera GT. During the episode the people where saying how much power the car has and how a driver has to be extremely careful with the throttle because without percise throttle response the car would go out of control. They showed drivers trying to push the car around the winding road loosing control of the rear it was real fun to watch . After I watched that I said to myself Oh i gotta play Forza3 because it has the Porsche Carrera GT. When driving the Carrera in Forza I was really sad the car handled like @ 250HP FR with R tires. It has no characteristic of a MR, It also has super amount of grip with its standard tires. Throttle control is not needed you can blast out the turn full throttle. If you want to have fun while playing a racing game Forza3 is definatly your game. Im all for simulation so i stick with GT5P/ GT5. 👍

Um, GT suffers from the exact same thing. Nearly all racing games do. If GT or Forza were pure simulation, we wouldn't be able to jump into supercars or LMPs in both games & do decent laps around the track on our first go.

And yet, you can. The only cars in both games that seem to really do a good job of requiring throttle control are the top 3-4 cars in GT5 & the R1/R2's in Forza.

 

[Dave A]

I disagree with that, the cars in GT5 across the board require a hell of a of more throttle control than they do in Forza 3. If you compare cars using the N tyres in GT5 and the road tyres in Forza 3 and turn TCS off in both, then be it a 300bhp car or a 600bhp car, you will need to use a lot more throttle control in GT5 than Forza 3. That doesn't automatically mean the physics are better in one than the other, I personally find it very hard to compare as I drive GT5 with no assists but regardless of my peripheral in Forza 3 you are always being assisted. I do think there is a really good sim underneath, it's just a shame they've wrapped the handling in cotton wool.

 

[LaBounti]

I personally think it depends on what you are looking at and what you enjoy from the game in question. Simply because its a PS2 title should not automatically make it irrelevant in this day and age.

Richard Burns Rally is a great example, nothing for console or PC has come close to it for a rally sim since it game out, its as relevant and enjoyable today as it was at launch.

You are right but I wasn't using GT4 as an example. Your example was in a positive light, GT4's comparisons seem to only be for the negatives.

And No Terronium, the same cant be said for GT5P. Its still new enough and the only GT release on PS3. It is more relevant than GT4 and GT5P has improved on everything. I'm just saying people are still downplaying GT4, saying how bad it is at this and that and how it compares to newer gamers. How many times a day does GT4's under steer get brought up

And to JDMKING13, Stay clear of the Enzo Fxx, it drives literally and figuratively like a dream. its like a gocart with super brakes and downforce, its fun but the scare factor is not there when driving some high end cars. I personally dont care and it doesn't negate the experience, its still a great racing game

 

[Terronium-12]

And No Terronium, the same cant be said for GT5P. Its still new enough and the only GT release on PS3. It is more relevant than GT4 and GT5P has improved on everything. I'm just saying people are still downplaying GT4, saying how bad it is at this and that and how it compares to newer gamers. How many times a day does GT4's under steer get brought up

You're probably the first person to have said that; the first one I've seen anyway.

 

[TBR 427]

Um, GT suffers from the exact same thing. Nearly all racing games do. If GT or Forza were pure simulation, we wouldn't be able to jump into supercars or LMPs in both games & do decent laps around the track on our first go.

Forza you can. Jump into the GT-One, mash the throttle and go for it, and let that steering aid help you keep it straight.

Though you seem to have missed is pretty much all gameplay videos of GT5 at the nurburgring, Le Mans, E3, etc. Out of the thousands of videos of people doing just that (jumping right into the supercars or LMPs) there's maybe 4 or 5 of people who don't mess up and send a Ferrari or Lamborghini or Peugeot 908 or SLS into a wall sideways at embarrassingly mediocre speeds.

 

[Moglet]

Forza you can. Jump into the GT-One, mash the throttle and go for it, and let that steering aid help you keep it straight.

What? You WILL spin out if you do that!

 

[McLaren]

Forza you can. Jump into the GT-One, mash the throttle and go for it, and let that steering aid help you keep it straight.

No, you can't. Any of the R2/R1 cars will spin if you try to man-handle them around.

Though you seem to have missed is pretty much all gameplay videos of GT5 at the nurburgring, Le Mans, E3, etc. Out of the thousands of videos of people doing just that (jumping right into the supercars or LMPs) there's maybe 4 or 5 of people who don't mess up and send a Ferrari or Lamborghini or Peugeot 908 or SLS into a wall sideways at embarrassingly mediocre speeds.

That's not a strong argument since I have watched people jump into Shift, FM3, & GT5 and mess up instantly because most of these people playing are not going to be used to the controls. Give any of these people 30 minutes, & I guarantee, they'll have the basic control settings down.

 

[Eric.]

No, you can't. Any of the R2/R1 cars will spin if you try to man-handle them around.

That's not a strong argument since I have watched people jump into Shift, FM3, & GT5 and mess up instantly because most of these people playing are not going to be used to the controls. Give any of these people 30 minutes, & I guarantee, they'll have the basic control settings down.

Hell, half of the early videos of ANY racing game that come out have idiots with every driving aid on and they can't make a single turn.

 

[Clark]

I've probably said this before in the thread but the main thing for me is the whole steering buffer that's been discussed to death, I'm sure if that was removed the physics underneath are decent (although for me not a patch on GTP Pro physics). The steering buffer just makes driving get boring very quickly as the cars feel very docile and safe. For example the FWD cars will always understeer as attempting to throw the car into a corner and lifting off to get some oversteer just results in the game not letting you put enough lock on to throw the car in but enough to just make the front tyres squel (or shuffle in FM's case . (this is how it is with the wheel although I'm pretty sure it's the same for the pad.

This makes me feel that FM is probably the best sim for a pad user and the closest you can get to a sim with it being playable with a pad, but that very fact alone makes it fall short of being a properly good sim as when driven with a wheel there is still some assistance and the car does not react to your exact inputs.

 

[newbielives]

I'm surprise Turn 10 hasn't patched this up already. I guess in the Forza forums, there are too many fanboys to give any real feedback to what needs to be done to improve the game

I've probably said this before in the thread but the main thing for me is the whole steering buffer that's been discussed to death, I'm sure if that was removed the physics underneath are decent (although for me not a patch on GTP Pro physics). The steering buffer just makes driving get boring very quickly as the cars feel very docile and safe. For example the FWD cars will always understeer as attempting to throw the car into a corner and lifting off to get some oversteer just results in the game not letting you put enough lock on to throw the car in but enough to just make the front tyres squel (or shuffle in FM's case . (this is how it is with the wheel although I'm pretty sure it's the same for the pad.

This makes me feel that FM is probably the best sim for a pad user and the closest you can get to a sim with it being playable with a pad, but that very fact alone makes it fall short of being a properly good sim as when driven with a wheel there is still some assistance and the car does not react to your exact inputs.

 

[Eric.]

I've probably said this before in the thread but the main thing for me is the whole steering buffer that's been discussed to death, I'm sure if that was removed the physics underneath are decent (although for me not a patch on GTP Pro physics). The steering buffer just makes driving get boring very quickly as the cars feel very docile and safe. For example the FWD cars will always understeer as attempting to throw the car into a corner and lifting off to get some oversteer just results in the game not letting you put enough lock on to throw the car in but enough to just make the front tyres squel (or shuffle in FM's case . (this is how it is with the wheel although I'm pretty sure it's the same for the pad.

This makes me feel that FM is probably the best sim for a pad user and the closest you can get to a sim with it being playable with a pad, but that very fact alone makes it fall short of being a properly good sim as when driven with a wheel there is still some assistance and the car does not react to your exact inputs.

I don't know how you aren't getting oversteer in a FWD car...I think you need to follow me for a lap.

 

[Clark]

If I do what I do in other games, and what I could do for real I just get the car understeering, you can't throw it in like this:

 

[Eric.]

In that case, I haven't been able to do something like that in any game except NFS shift, but that was putting a Civic Si 90 degrees by touching the brake while turning, so I'm not going to call that realistic either.

But in Forza, all of my FWD cars will rotate when you lift the throttle. I do always use a rear sway bar on FWDs (no front way, they don't need it), So that does help, but you should also be able to get that effect by raising the rear tire pressure.

 

[Clark]

I know but the point is that the steering buffer is stopping me from doing something the car should do stock, it shouldn't need modifications. I can do it in RP and GT5P fine.

 

[LaBounti]

If I do what I do in other games, and what I could do for real I just get the car understeering, you can't throw it in like this:

The digital steering will not allow that. You can do it in Shift because it has the worse steering assists playing with a pad.

 

[chromatic9]

In that case, I haven't been able to do something like that in any game except NFS shift, but that was putting a Civic Si 90 degrees by touching the brake while turning, so I'm not going to call that realistic either.

Touching the brake is one of the techniques us Europeans use for initiating oversteer in a FWD cars, so it is realistic. The front end goes down and the back end goes light and breaks traction. Best done with left foot braking.

Here's a video on the joys of messing around in FWD cars

 

[Eric.]

Didn't realize European car were set up that "touching the brake" instantly applies enough force to send a hatchback sideways.

 

[chromatic9]

Didn't realize European car were set up that "touching the brake" instantly applies enough force to send a hatchback sideways.

?

 

[Eric.]

I said that just touching the brake while turning in NFS Shift sends cars flying sideways as if I just yanked the handbrake 100%. You replied as if that is accurate and like I didn't know what lift-throttle oversteer with a FWD car was. It's not and I do, as you should be able to tell from my previous posts in this discussion...

 

[chromatic9]

I've probably said this before in the thread but the main thing for me is the whole steering buffer that's been discussed to death, I'm sure if that was removed the physics underneath are decent (although for me not a patch on GTP Pro physics). The steering buffer just makes driving get boring very quickly as the cars feel very docile and safe. For example the FWD cars will always understeer as attempting to throw the car into a corner and lifting off to get some oversteer just results in the game not letting you put enough lock on to throw the car in but enough to just make the front tyres squel (or shuffle in FM's case . (this is how it is with the wheel although I'm pretty sure it's the same for the pad.

This makes me feel that FM is probably the best sim for a pad user and the closest you can get to a sim with it being playable with a pad, but that very fact alone makes it fall short of being a properly good sim as when driven with a wheel there is still some assistance and the car does not react to your exact inputs.

Can you show me FWD liftoff oversteer in GT5P like in the Tiff Needell video? I'd like to see the car go side ways and then pulled back straight with the throttle. Don't want to see Scandinavian flicks or handbrakes, just one turn in, back end breaks traction and can be brought back straight like in the Tiff, drivers republic and Forza 3 videos on the previous page.

I guess the main point is Forza 3 just understeers but this wasn't the case when I tried it and seemed more convincing than GT5P.

I tried to find a video but doesn't seem to be here. Whats with the handbrake? You can keep it on that long and drive on a wet road but on dry you'd have to let it off pretty quick or it will slow down a lot and burn the tyres. Looks like an ice rink.

 

[Eric.]

Looks like a tie in the FWD Oversteer category. NEXT.

 

[Playguy]

what the well was that?lol

 

[GrandPrix]

Forza 3 is an ok game. There are many car too pick and upgrade and tune, but when it comes to racing, I don't think I am the only one who hates an hour race in f class around Road America. Events like that and where you can be an R1 class car and race C class cars seems pointless. I am looking for a good racing game and maybe online it will be better...not really. It is full of people who love to crash and have no idea how to race. The idea of a storefront is great and I have no problem with that, but when it comes to Turn10 picks, they are all pictures of tail-lights and close-ups of wheels. The liveries are all of anime characters. Speaking of liveries, I think its great you can create anything on your car. he tools and vynals used to create liveries are so difficult to blend together it takes a good 3 hours to get a good paint job finished. Overall, FM3 WAS a good game until story mode got old, multiplayer became too frustrating, and I have no use in spending 3 hours to create an ugly livery.(although I see some others can do some amazing things with it, its not practical.)

 

[Eric.]

Forza 3 is an ok game. There are many car too pick and upgrade and tune, but when it comes to racing, I don't think I am the only one who hates an hour race in f class around Road America. Events like that and where you can be an R1 class car and race C class cars seems pointless. I am looking for a good racing game and maybe online it will be better...not really. It is full of people who love to crash and have no idea how to race. The idea of a storefront is great and I have no problem with that, but when it comes to Turn10 picks, they are all pictures of tail-lights and close-ups of wheels. The liveries are all of anime characters. Speaking of liveries, I think its great you can create anything on your car. he tools and vynals used to create liveries are so difficult to blend together it takes a good 3 hours to get a good paint job finished. Overall, FM3 WAS a good game until story mode got old, multiplayer became too frustrating, and I have no use in spending 3 hours to create an ugly livery.(although I see some others can do some amazing things with it, its not practical.)

I swear, you people forget everything about Gran Turismo when you post **** bitching about Forza, don't you? You can race totally unfair races in GT too. For example the beginning MR races, you can go take a midengined LMP car (I think...unless race tires are restricted...in which case any supercar) and go destroy Toyota MR2s.

Online - every online racer has punters. Get over it. GT5 will have even more judging by the influx of idiotspeople who post here.

GT doesn't have a "story mode", so that's no different than Forza.

We're going to talk about practicality in a video game? You know what's practical? Not wasting time and electricity playing a game and going out and doing something in the world.

And you can't say the game sucks because of user content. Go make your own and improve it. Besides, you can search and find pretty much anything. Or get on a Forza forum and request what you want.


Question: What other racing games do you play online?

 

[dzidza]

Forza 3 is an ok game. There are many car too pick and upgrade and tune, but when it comes to racing, I don't think I am the only one who hates an hour race in f class around Road America. Events like that and where you can be an R1 class car and race C class cars seems pointless. I am looking for a good racing game and maybe online it will be better...not really. It is full of people who love to crash and have no idea how to race. The idea of a storefront is great and I have no problem with that, but when it comes to Turn10 picks, they are all pictures of tail-lights and close-ups of wheels. The liveries are all of anime characters. Speaking of liveries, I think its great you can create anything on your car. he tools and vynals used to create liveries are so difficult to blend together it takes a good 3 hours to get a good paint job finished. Overall, FM3 WAS a good game until story mode got old, multiplayer became too frustrating, and I have no use in spending 3 hours to create an ugly livery.(although I see some others can do some amazing things with it, its not practical.)

Personally i adore long race in F class, in any class. Especially with lower classes i have time,in 1h race, to have a bear or ....... :-)

 

[Terronium-12]

Forza 3 is an ok game. There are many car too pick and upgrade and tune, but when it comes to racing, I don't think I am the only one who hates an hour race in f class around Road America. Events like that and where you can be an R1 class car and race C class cars seems pointless. I am looking for a good racing game and maybe online it will be better...not really. It is full of people who love to crash and have no idea how to race. The idea of a storefront is great and I have no problem with that, but when it comes to Turn10 picks, they are all pictures of tail-lights and close-ups of wheels. The liveries are all of anime characters. Speaking of liveries, I think its great you can create anything on your car. he tools and vynals used to create liveries are so difficult to blend together it takes a good 3 hours to get a good paint job finished. Overall, FM3 WAS a good game until story mode got old, multiplayer became too frustrating, and I have no use in spending 3 hours to create an ugly livery.(although I see some others can do some amazing things with it, its not practical.)

I'm sorry, but that really is the dumbest complaint about Forza I've seen to date. Congratulations.

 

[TeamStig]

You can race totally unfair races in GT too. For example the beginning MR races, you can go take a midengined LMP car (I think...unless race tires are restricted...in which case any supercar) and go destroy Toyota MR2s.

Actually most of the time the game limits events like those to production cars. And usually it is pretty specific about that.

We're going to talk about practicality in a video game? You know what's practical? Not wasting time and electricity playing a game and going out and doing something in the world.

Great job here. Because someone's complaints about a stupid video game really justifies calling them useless and lazy. 👎

I'm sorry, but that really is the dumbest complaint about Forza I've seen to date. Congratulations.

Usually when people don't like something they give reasons why. Otherwise you can't really take anything they say seriously.

 

[crooky369]

It's the benchmark game for me and I don't think GT5 will match it totally because I don't the AI will be as good as Forza or the painting of cars.

One thing I'd like to see in Forza 4 is more tyre deterioration or longer races. The so called endurance races are all around an hour long, the only feasible pit strategy is 1 stop and you only need to pit to get fuel the tyres would probably last the whole race...

 

[Eric.]

Great job here. Because someone's complaints about a stupid video game really justifies calling them useless and lazy. 👎

Way to put words in my mouth. I never said he is useless or lazy. He mentioned whether doing something in a video game is practical.

He's claiming that making your own car designs isn't practical. Nothing about video games (or anything in the entertainment business for that matter) is practical. Either way its a feature many people have enjoyed about Forza and other games are attempting to copy.