Sounds - Will they finally be good?

[Griffith500]

I´m a graphics, sound and physics whore...literally.

Sound is a huge part in any racing game. Tons of games are making this right as of now...why PD can´t replicate what others do?

There is no excuse. Not even technically speaking. Other games uses different methods yes, but they at least try to replicate engine sounds as they really are.
Examples like, NFS games, any Codemasters game, Simbin games and tons of arcade games mostly. Which to me is hilarious...games with arcade physics made just for fun have better sound, and a simulator doesn´t...

If we don´t get proper realistic engine sounds in the next game...I probably won´t buy it. Then I´ll be laughing at their explanation about why they couldn´t make the sounds "right".

Look at the engine sounds of any GT5 promotional video clip...It is like lying to the costumers. I call that fake advertising.

Hell, even Drive Club seems to have realistic sounds. If PD won´t deliver in that area after 15 years and 5 games...



PS: @Griffith I really like your technical explanations and sometimes "justifications" of why sounds are like that, etc...The quality is great overall but the SOUL, the POWER, the FEEL of the car is missing if you don´t have realistic engine sounds even by having the best quality/fidelity.

This is beyond technical explanations.

Oh you really do have it in for certain words, don't you?!
What did they ever do to you? Honestly, "Fidelity" is bad now? I'm sorry to say this (again), but please stop reading too much into what I'm writing, I'm fed up with fighting a battle people needlessly keep bringing to me based on their own fantasies - seriously.

Anyway, it's fine to criticise GT5's sounds, they are lacking. But to look at other games and say "why can't we have that?" when, on the whole, they're equally awful (but for different reasons), is just nonsensical to me. No game out there even comes close to the level of fidelity (seriously, it's a word rooted in Latin, where's the misunderstanding?) that is required this day and age, so there is no point coveting certain games' entire approaches when their current packages are all in the wrong directions themselves.

We need something different. I tend to favour the promise iRacing has recently shown, since they seem to be making all the right changes to their sound systems, and PD appear to be taking that same style of approach one step further, although it's all underlying tech (nothing too "visible") for now. And before you scoff, the tech is the backbone you hang everything off of. This is computer software, you're just going to have to deal with its inherent "tech-ness" and accept that it is advances in tech (not SOUL, POWER and FEEL - although there ought to be plenty of that, too) that are going to advance the general audio experience across the board of gaming in general.

As for the "lying" in trailers, I think you'll find Drive Club to be equally infiel on that front.
Be sure, also, that what you mean by "better" isn't different from "realistic", because a lot of games that are frequently cited as "better" are usually not at all "realistic".

I have more to say about the subjective nature of experience (since you so abhor the measurable, "technical" kind of discussion), and how you should take your delusion (how many of us are lucky enough to experience the SOUL, POWER and FEEL of these games' subject matter first hand?) from the person / people who most closely share your "values" regarding that particular experience, but I'll save that since we could get into some unnecessary generalising which only ever results in offence being taken one way or another.

EDIT: @ Earth: Real recordings of real cars are "fake" now?

 

[Slash]

I will buy another Gran Turismo when the muscle cars actually start to sound like this:

 

[FLASH48]

I agree with 100% Slashfan!!! That would be without any surround sound, just using standard tv speakers!

 

[1241Penguin]

Awesome but fake engine sounds throughout this trailer

Given this, I wouldn't trust any GT6 trailers to be representative of the engine sounds of the actual game.

 

[Griffith500]

Given this, I wouldn't trust any GT6 trailers to be representative of the engine sounds of the actual game.

Why would you have done anyway? Game trailers have never told the full story, they're a marketing device. Obviously I wish all trailers were representative, but you make out like this is some new thing PD have invented.

Treat all trailers with the same cynicism they were wrought from and hence deserve.

 

[Slash]

I agree with 100% Slashfan!!! That would be without any surround sound, just using standard tv speakers!

+1 That's how they should sound compared to the crappy ones we have now.

 

[1241Penguin]

Obviously I wish all trailers were representative, but you make out like this is some new thing PD have invented.

Did I? Or did I just point out something PD have almost always faked in their trailers?

 

[Griffith500]

Did I? Or did I just point out something PD have almost always faked in their trailers?

That's not what you did at all, when you look at the thread of conversation:

1. Someone else posted: This old trailer has "fake" sounds.
2. You posted: Based on that, I won't take any new trailers seriously.

No mention of "always", only a reaction to one incidence of the prolific cancer of misleading game "trailers", and your future outlook, apparently (by your own words) based on that one incidence, is now changed.

If that's not what you intended to write, then I apologise, but perhaps you should work on that a bit...

Oh, and finally, it's not "fake", it's just misleading. I don't know how real recordings of real cars can be fake, but I guess internet society just loves that word too much to actually use it properly.

 

[Strittan]

It's not the first time I refer to iRacing on these forums and probably not the last either, for good reason I think...

I mean, just listen to this!

​

It's not perfect, I know, but like 6,000 miles better than Gran Turismo for sure!

 

[Griffith500]

It's not the first time I refer to iRacing on these forums and probably not the last either, for good reason I think...

I mean, just listen to this!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J26nFVmCe_A

It's not perfect, I know, but like 6,000 miles better than Gran Turismo for sure!

I'm really impressed by the improvement - I linked to several videos in my long rambling post earlier, and I think how they're doing things is definitely the way to go. They got a very good sampling engine running first, and are now adding features "the right way". For instance, people want to hear "gear wobble" effects etc., but rather than try to craft these effects with one-shot control perturbations triggered via the game's logic, they decided to physically model the very thing that actually causes it: drivetrain flex. This has all sorts of physical (i.e. it affects the physics) nuances, particularly regarding throttle pick-up in corners etc., but the bonus is it doesn't half sound superb. Onboard, and in respect of the engine sounds alone, it now no longer sounds like a game, but rather a particularly limited recording of a real car - quite the feat.

As for those external sounds, I can still hear looping and the comb effect doesn't vary quite as much as it should, but that's because they're static recordings. It's very hard to add (well, they're easy to add, hard to tune) those sorts of effects on the fly, but I think it's more than worth pursuing in the long run. I'll reiterate: the only reason the new V8 samples sound so good (the flex affects all cars) is because of accurate spatialisation present in the samples and mix.

Dynamic spatialisation of game sounds is going to be really important for future improvements in overall fidelity, and I think the sample-based approach will quickly prove itself to be insufficient / inefficient.

Here's another video of the V8 that better shows the flex in action:

 

[avens]

Wrote this some time ago and people went against me lol: If an employee is not good enough to do his job well he just should be fired and replaced by a better one.

How do people expect better sounds if the staff is the exact same as in GT5, committing the same recording and editing mistakes that have been discussed here several times?

 

[Foxiol]

It's not perfect, I know, but like 6,000 miles better than Gran Turismo for sure!

You and me talk the same language.

Those are "realistic" engine sounds.

"Realistic" doesn´t mean "Real", it means that it is close to the real thing...which in GT series is far away from "Real" and far from "Realistic".

iRacing is doing things right and R3E too of course.

 

[Bc4]

I'd rather they give up some cars if that means better sound.

 

[Griffith500]

Wrote this some time ago and people went against me lol: If an employee is not good enough to do his job well he just should be fired and replaced by a better one.

How do people expect better sounds if the staff is the exact same as in GT5, committing the same recording and editing mistakes that have been discussed here several times?

What might they be? The trailers, start up sounds etc. prove there's nothing wrong with their recordings; as for "editing", we've not really seen any new evidence of that since GT2. So what exactly have they been doing since then?
Do you really think that over ten years, the sound team at a high-profile, big-budget studio has been doing nothing? You must feel very big though, telling everyone they need firing, I hope it's ample compensation for you.

You and me talk the same language.

Those are "realistic" engine sounds.

"Realistic" doesn´t mean "Real", it means that it is close to the real thing...which in GT series is far away from "Real" and far from "Realistic".

iRacing is doing things right and R3E too of course.

iRacing, yes, RRRE, not as much - remember that GTR3 "preview"?

Realistic absolutely does mean real if it means "close to the real thing" - what sort of logic is that anyway?
But if you prefer a more stylised sound, that's fine, too, just stop deluding yourself that it's what everything should be like, and drop the fearful avoidance of words whose connotations you misunderstand.

 

[PlainBlandMan]

I hope GT will add a vocoder so that I can speak through my driver. I don't know what I'll use it for, but it'll sound cool.

 

[Foxiol]

iRacing, yes, RRRE, not as much - remember that GTR3 "preview"?

Realistic absolutely does mean real if it means "close to the real thing" - what sort of logic is that anyway?
But if you prefer a more stylised sound, that's fine, too, just stop deluding yourself that it's what everything should be like, and drop the fearful avoidance of words whose connotations you misunderstand.

Realistic is not the same as real because you CAN´T reproduce actual reality in a video-game as of today. Real is what it is and realistic is the imitation of it. Both things are different.

As simple as that my friend.

Still, man I like you, don´t be so sensitive about every "debate" or different opinions. You always have the more technical approach to the subject, I have my own point of view and preferences.
You are talking like the rest knows nothing if they are not talking in your own "language" (as I said to the other guy). At least it seems.

Stay on topic...anyone, you, me, the rest, has the right to opine even if they are "wrong" or not.

But don´t take credit out of every comment because they don´t think like you.

 

[Strittan]

I'd rather they give up some cars if that means better sound.

Agreed.

As for those external sounds, I can still hear looping and the comb effect doesn't vary quite as much as it should, but that's because they're static recordings.

Yeah, if you close your eyes it's hard to know when the car goes by so to speak. If they improve the comb effect it will be very close to spot on!

Also very interesting info you gave on the drivetrain flex effect. It sounds awesome when he's going slow in the video you posted.

 

[Strittan]

DP, so sorry.

 

[Griffith500]

Realistic is not the same as real because you CAN´T reproduce actual reality in a video-game as of today. Real is what it is and realistic is the imitation of it. Both things are different.

As simple as that my friend.

Still, man I like you, don´t be so sensitive about every "debate" or different opinions. You always have the more technical approach to the subject, I have my own point of view and preferences.
You are talking like the rest knows nothing if they are not talking in your own "language" (as I said to the other guy). At least it seems.

Stay on topic...anyone, you, me, the rest, has the right to opine even if they are "wrong" or not.

But don´t take credit out of every comment because they don´t think like you.

iRacing speaks my language, too, so something doesn't add up here. Frankly, I've given up thinking of excuses for you at this point.

I've gone to great lengths before to explain to you why I favour the technical side to the discussion, since I don't see the value in adding another baseless emotional opinion into the mix when I can actually add in a splash (a taint, if you will) of objectivity instead. I have my own set of emotional requirements from videogames, but that's frankly not very interesting in a discussion saturated with such things.

I'm well aware that people are "entitled" to an opinion, but if people want to believe the Earth is flat, they're still wrong and I don't have to take their opinions as proof otherwise, and they certainly don't have the right to mislead everyone else.

Stop trying to take credit out of all of my comments, because evidently I don't think the way you seem to think I think.

 

[Foxiol]

iRacing speaks my language, too, so something doesn't add up here. Frankly, I've given up thinking of excuses for you at this point.

I've gone to great lengths before to explain to you why I favour the technical side to the discussion, since I don't see the value in adding another baseless emotional opinion into the mix when I can actually add in a splash (a taint, if you will) of objectivity instead. I have my own set of emotional requirements from videogames, but that's frankly not very interesting in a discussion saturated with such things.

I'm well aware that people are "entitled" to an opinion, but if people want to believe the Earth is flat, they're still wrong and I don't have to take their opinions as proof otherwise, and they certainly don't have the right to mislead everyone else.

Stop trying to take credit out of all of my comments, because evidently I don't think the way you seem to think I think.

LOL at the final part.

You just talk too much, that´s what I was trying to say and some people don´t even care or understand what are you trying to say.
Sometimes those "feelings" are more important than those interesting tech aspects.

Also you always reply to people that is not even "talking" to you.

I respect your opinions, respect others too.
And the "Earth being flat" argument...please...if you were that intelligent as a person with all that things you say and know, you won´t be here in a forum all day long posting.

If I were you I´ll be working at NASA or something.

And yeah think whatever you want, I just don´t care what you think about me...because at the end of the day I don´t care about you at all too. So why bother?

Please be back to topic and just ignore me and my low IQ comments against yours from now on. Yes that is a request that I hope you take.

It is full of smart and intelligent people in the internet these days. No one of them is rich or makes profits out of it. Interesting.

(clearly I am not one of them that´s why I am here)


TOPIC= Sounds...yes as I said, I don´t like what we have, PD work on them again and make them sound realistic. As simple as that. End.


(sorry if this sounds bad, but better stop arguing about other stuff non-related to topic, I don´t care who is who here or how they think...I just want to express MY personal opinion, like it or not...it looks like every comment is a competition to be the best...hilarious..)

 

[RedBaron]

Wonderful work with engine sound! You can finally hear throttle modulation, exactly what driver does with his foot on the gas pedal!

You can actually hear that the engine is high revving combustion beast, not some electrical box from laboratory.

This is the way to go with engine sounds for GT6, PD!

I think that it deserves its own article in GT Planet news, it's almost only way to let PD know what community thinks about GT1 sounds in game called GT5.

It's not the first time I refer to iRacing on these forums and probably not the last either, for good reason I think...

I mean, just listen to this!

​

It's not perfect, I know, but like 6,000 miles better than Gran Turismo for sure!

 

[Griffith500]

snip

Funny that you're complaining about me replying to people who are not "talking to me" (this is a public forum 💡), but you initiated this whole thread by once again trying to undermine my arguments based on the fact that you (apparently, so you say) don't understand them.

I only know what I know because I actually took the time to educate myself on the topic, not because of some miraculous NASA-grade intelligence. I only had the time to do that because of my personal situation being less than favourable, so you really should be more careful about the kinds of insults you throw around. Although I think it's funny that you believe intelligent people shouldn't be posting here.

I ("intelligent" or not, who knows) post here to offer other people a launch point into that knowledge, as I believe everyone is entitled to it, and I believe that if everyone can make better educated decisions individually, they can make better decisions collectively. If they don't want that, it's fine, but the Earth is still round.
What I don't have time for is self righteous indignation borne from a standpoint of utter ignorance, which is why sometimes I'm less then courteous.

As for the emotional aspects, I never said they were unimportant, just that I choose not to base my discussion on that front (although I've actually focused on that at great length in the past). If everyone else is free to do as they please, why am I not allowed that freedom? It wouldn't matter if I did or didn't try to construct my posts from a factual basis, some people would still not care or not understand, so that's not a valid reason (unless you mean you don't care, therefore the world doesn't care?!) - it's my time at the end of the day, and I'll do with it as I please.

Once again, you've caused me to have to explain my personal motivations for posting here, when in fact, should you have been following your own advice, I ought not have been challenged in the first place.

EDIT: You see the emotional response above? That's also how I felt when I first heard it, but I wanted to know why it worked, too. Turns out it's technical...

 

[I Love GT6]

In my opinion they should keep the graphics like they are in GT5 and just make "real" sounding cars, With "real" sounds when you upgrade the engine or exhaust.