Spanking Children
- Thread starter Danoff
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- a baby, candy, it's like taking.
- TexRex72
I agree with the general theme here, as well as what I didn't quote in your post, but I'd like to touch on the bolded bit without deviating from the topic too much.
I don't agree that losing track of an unspent round is in and of itself indicative of an irresponsible gun owner/user. Can it be counted among other examples in coming to such a determination? Absolutely.
Rounds are often small and I often joke that I'm ambilevous...because I kind of am. I make every effort to ensure each and every round, whether it's spent or not, is accounted for. I think this is a part of what makes me a responsible gun owner/user, even if one occasionally slips by.
[That's the end of my addressing the quoted user and quotation.]
The fact that they can so easily slip by makes being a responsible parent so important, and one can be a responsible parent in this exact scenario without even being a gun owner/user, responsible or otherwise.
First and foremost, they're not toys. Should a child find a round, the means notwithstanding, the first instinct should be to leave it alone and inform an authority figure of its location. Because it's not a toy, there's no reason to show it off to friends, and this does not go without saying; it actually bears repeating.
Inform the child of consequences of disregarding these lessons, and in many cases those consequences are for parents just as--if not more than--for the child.
Danoff
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It's not that easy to say without knowing the kids involved in both cases, understanding their history leading up to both of those instances. In order to parent those kids, I need to know those kids. It's especially hard in the theft case. I'd like to think that I'd start out in the theft case by asking a lot of questions... trying to figure out where the lapse in judgement or understanding was. I imagine there would be consequences patterned after the problem. Because if the kid honestly did not know they did anything wrong, the failure is mine, not theirs. If they knew damned well they did something wrong, then logical consequences should follow.
The bullet case is much easier. I'd start out by apologizing for leaving a bullet out, and then ask questions to figure out where the lapse in judgement or understanding was. Consequences (or not) would come from the results of that.
Neither of these cases is especially bad behavior. Beating up a kid at school, threatening to kill someone, threatening to beat children if they don't give up their lunch money... these are more severe cases where I would still not spank.
- 51,151
- Australia
- SpacedustDaddy
Times have changed. I've been spanked as a child and also had the best Family life I could ever have. Love ruled from my own home to aunts, uncles, cousins and friends. I'm one of the many fortunate. The spankings I received were just. Sometimes I misbehaved or did not do what I was supposed to, in terms of listening to what my parents said. Growing up in the 1970s and 1980s was about, "DO what I say and that's that!". Number one rule was: Respect your elders. I was never abused. Again, my life was and is filled with love.
Today, spanking doesn't accomplish anything. I have an 8yo daughter and it's all about dialogue. When she was a few years old, I gave her a soft tap on the bum with clothes on, and said the words, "Hey, don't do that.". Children speak on everything. They vocalise about the unfairness of life. Kids today, question everything. They require more information than, "Because I said so!". It's not even about spanking being an ancient discipline option, it's just not effective in today's world.
My Son is 25. Me and his mother(different to my daughter's Mother) spanked him when he was young( few and far between ). When he was about 14 and soon to come live with me, he was living with his mother and did something dumb. When I had to give him a call, he says, "I'm too old to be spanked now." I replied, "Oh, you're never too old for that.". We had a brief laugh, but when we talked recently, he said he knew a lot of what he was doing back then and was seeing how much he could get away with. He says, "I love you, Pops" all the time.
Today, spanking doesn't accomplish anything. I have an 8yo daughter and it's all about dialogue. When she was a few years old, I gave her a soft tap on the bum with clothes on, and said the words, "Hey, don't do that.". Children speak on everything. They vocalise about the unfairness of life. Kids today, question everything. They require more information than, "Because I said so!". It's not even about spanking being an ancient discipline option, it's just not effective in today's world.
My Son is 25. Me and his mother(different to my daughter's Mother) spanked him when he was young( few and far between ). When he was about 14 and soon to come live with me, he was living with his mother and did something dumb. When I had to give him a call, he says, "I'm too old to be spanked now." I replied, "Oh, you're never too old for that.". We had a brief laugh, but when we talked recently, he said he knew a lot of what he was doing back then and was seeing how much he could get away with. He says, "I love you, Pops" all the time.
Danoff
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@ryzno
Let me give you a hypothetical conversation in the theft case:
Why did you take the money to school?
The other kids are really mean to me at school.
And you thought they would be nice be if you had more money?
Well, Scott's always talking about how much money he has, and I thought the other kids would like me if I did too.
Who are your friends at school?
Well, Eric... but he's mean to me sometimes too. None of the other kids like me.
Do you see where this goes? You can have a constructive conversation about the actual problem before even coming close to talking about consequences. How does spanking help this?
Doesn't accomplish anything good. Also it didn't back then either.
Let me give you a hypothetical conversation in the theft case:
Why did you take the money to school?
The other kids are really mean to me at school.
And you thought they would be nice be if you had more money?
Well, Scott's always talking about how much money he has, and I thought the other kids would like me if I did too.
Who are your friends at school?
Well, Eric... but he's mean to me sometimes too. None of the other kids like me.
Do you see where this goes? You can have a constructive conversation about the actual problem before even coming close to talking about consequences. How does spanking help this?
Doesn't accomplish anything good. Also it didn't back then either.
- 2,216
- Isle of Wight, UK
I think honestly if I look around, at least here in the UK, spanking has gone the way of the dodo for the most part. I'm in the least-physical-violence-possible camp on most issues that exist, but how that plays out remains to be seen. Maybe that's an inherent problem with child psychology - it takes a whole childhood to really see the results of one's parenting and that inherently invites every variable under the sun.
What I learned from this thread is that sometimes, making blanket statements about things, even if totally morally okay, and backed by real science and studies, can come across a little insulting to those who might have raised/been raised a different way. When you say spanking causes all these negative things, there's a sort of implication that you're saying "kids that get spanked are messed up for life" and "parents who spank are lazy and bad". I'd personally say even anecdotal evidence is enough to make either of those implications demonstrably not true in every case.
What I learned from this thread is that sometimes, making blanket statements about things, even if totally morally okay, and backed by real science and studies, can come across a little insulting to those who might have raised/been raised a different way. When you say spanking causes all these negative things, there's a sort of implication that you're saying "kids that get spanked are messed up for life" and "parents who spank are lazy and bad". I'd personally say even anecdotal evidence is enough to make either of those implications demonstrably not true in every case.
- 7,602
- Exorcet
- OE Exorcet
I'm glad. I was probably 5 when I realized "because I said so" was utterly lazy and nonsensical and I feel the same way now.
As far as spankings go, based on current knowledge, I would avoid it (not that I ever considered for discipline really). On the other I can't point out any apparent negative effects from being spanked. It eventually backfired and reached a point where it would promote more laughter from me than fear and ceased to be a punishment at all. It makes me think that the damage it may cause is not innate, but related to other factors.
Danoff
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I don't mind if I offend some people.
It's black and white thinking that leads them to the conclusion that me telling them they shouldn't spank (or shouldn't have) means I think they're bad people or that their children are failures. It's exactly the kinds of misunderstanding that black and white parenting can promote. I don't think people are bad, or messed up, just because they didn't do things perfectly. I don't do things perfectly either. That's part of the reason why I don't hit kids for messing up.
Doesn't change the message though. It's not a good idea.
- 51,151
- Australia
- SpacedustDaddy
Definitely. Kids still believe in Santa Claus? There are many things today, that freighten children other than, "You'll get a spanking!".
Beating a person into submission is definitely the root of spanking. However, it depends who is giving the spanking. Just as I said in my post. What level of respect a parent has for their child. You've got to give respect to earn it.
So, I truly understand your reaction(and family and friends had felt the same as you did) to a spanking.
Danoff
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This thread has been fascinating.
I thought I saw the whole cycle. Exasperated parents spank in a moment of weakness, and their kids grow up and have kids, get exasperated, and do what their parents did. Cycle repeats. What I did not expect to see was such a large degree of choice affirmation bias. But it should have been obvious in retrospect. I'm starting to wonder just how much choice affirmation bias is responsible for, because once you see it, you see it everywhere.
It seems to run deep too, deeper than I expected to witness. I honestly thought that for the most part I would encounter parents who had spanked their kids, gotten short term results, and then with a little more work had compensated for the bad effects of spanking with a good parenting. But that's not actually what I'm seeing. I'm seeing leftover remnants of that bad message within adults, who, because of the cycle above, and choice affirmation bias, have now doubled-down on the notion of violence as a means to achieve obedience.
Amazingly, I came into this thread thinking that spanking was a counter-productive but usually not that big a deal problem where otherwise good parents would set themselves back and distance their children a little bit. I was immediately accused of assuming that the problem was profoundly deep (by people who think that a lack of spanking causes profoundly deep problems), even though I honestly didn't think that was the case generally. But what this thread has done is made me realize that perhaps it is. Perhaps it is profoundly deep. Perhaps that message of violence as an important means of correcting unwanted behavior has been more effectively taught than I realized.
Since the assumption is that spanking is on the decline in the US, I went searching for some answers. I found this. The question asked was whether occasionally a "good hard" spanking was necessary for discipline.
Now despite what the headline reads, that's a statistical flatline for a quarter of a century. Here's some more interesting data which I'm not sure I want to comment on yet:
Support for spanking also decreases with increased income level, and as you'd imagine based on the first part of this sentence, for education level.
I'm not sure spanking is in the decline in the US. I am sure that violence is (but the reasons may be unrelated). Spanking is linked will all kinds of problems, children who were spanked are more likely to be violent toward spouses, suicidal, and have a variety of other emotional problems (according to various research which I'll link if needed, but which I'm about ti discredit). The problem is that children who are spanked are more likely to be abused in other forms. Honestly, do you think that the dad who performs regular beatings (wife, kids, etc.) is not spanking for discipline? There's a selection bias in there. You've probably captured all of the physically abused children in one group (the spanked as a child group) and none of them in the other (the not spanked as a child group). And so of course the group that was spanked is more likely to have problems, that group was more likely to include severe cases. Statistics are such a minefield. I'd imagine that cases of more severe abuses are far more prevalent at lower income levels and lower education levels as well.
None of the research that I've seen while searching for these statistics is favorable for the effect of spanking. Even when they try to control for other forms of more severe abuse. All of it suggests that it is either unhelpful or harmful. Of course the actual analysis and theory of cognitive functions and emotional development during childhood supports this. But I guess it's good to see it born out so consistently in research.
What's really bugging me about this is that I see parallels between spanking children and US foreign policy and US treatment of criminals, especially this strikes me when we're talking about criminals who have done no actual harm to any other human, but have committed a regulatory infraction. Illegal immigration for example, prostitution, drug use, illegal gambling, etc. So often we get into a discussion about whether the person broke the rules and should be spanked, vs. whether they actually did something wrong.
I am finding myself wondering how deeply this acceptance of familial violence, and subsequent indoctrination through choice affirmation, is damaging US culture.
I thought I saw the whole cycle. Exasperated parents spank in a moment of weakness, and their kids grow up and have kids, get exasperated, and do what their parents did. Cycle repeats. What I did not expect to see was such a large degree of choice affirmation bias. But it should have been obvious in retrospect. I'm starting to wonder just how much choice affirmation bias is responsible for, because once you see it, you see it everywhere.
It seems to run deep too, deeper than I expected to witness. I honestly thought that for the most part I would encounter parents who had spanked their kids, gotten short term results, and then with a little more work had compensated for the bad effects of spanking with a good parenting. But that's not actually what I'm seeing. I'm seeing leftover remnants of that bad message within adults, who, because of the cycle above, and choice affirmation bias, have now doubled-down on the notion of violence as a means to achieve obedience.
Amazingly, I came into this thread thinking that spanking was a counter-productive but usually not that big a deal problem where otherwise good parents would set themselves back and distance their children a little bit. I was immediately accused of assuming that the problem was profoundly deep (by people who think that a lack of spanking causes profoundly deep problems), even though I honestly didn't think that was the case generally. But what this thread has done is made me realize that perhaps it is. Perhaps it is profoundly deep. Perhaps that message of violence as an important means of correcting unwanted behavior has been more effectively taught than I realized.
Since the assumption is that spanking is on the decline in the US, I went searching for some answers. I found this. The question asked was whether occasionally a "good hard" spanking was necessary for discipline.
Now despite what the headline reads, that's a statistical flatline for a quarter of a century. Here's some more interesting data which I'm not sure I want to comment on yet:
Support for spanking also decreases with increased income level, and as you'd imagine based on the first part of this sentence, for education level.
I'm not sure spanking is in the decline in the US. I am sure that violence is (but the reasons may be unrelated). Spanking is linked will all kinds of problems, children who were spanked are more likely to be violent toward spouses, suicidal, and have a variety of other emotional problems (according to various research which I'll link if needed, but which I'm about ti discredit). The problem is that children who are spanked are more likely to be abused in other forms. Honestly, do you think that the dad who performs regular beatings (wife, kids, etc.) is not spanking for discipline? There's a selection bias in there. You've probably captured all of the physically abused children in one group (the spanked as a child group) and none of them in the other (the not spanked as a child group). And so of course the group that was spanked is more likely to have problems, that group was more likely to include severe cases. Statistics are such a minefield. I'd imagine that cases of more severe abuses are far more prevalent at lower income levels and lower education levels as well.
None of the research that I've seen while searching for these statistics is favorable for the effect of spanking. Even when they try to control for other forms of more severe abuse. All of it suggests that it is either unhelpful or harmful. Of course the actual analysis and theory of cognitive functions and emotional development during childhood supports this. But I guess it's good to see it born out so consistently in research.
What's really bugging me about this is that I see parallels between spanking children and US foreign policy and US treatment of criminals, especially this strikes me when we're talking about criminals who have done no actual harm to any other human, but have committed a regulatory infraction. Illegal immigration for example, prostitution, drug use, illegal gambling, etc. So often we get into a discussion about whether the person broke the rules and should be spanked, vs. whether they actually did something wrong.
I am finding myself wondering how deeply this acceptance of familial violence, and subsequent indoctrination through choice affirmation, is damaging US culture.
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- 318
- Hungary
Spanking and emotional abuse are never really good. Parents do this mostly because they are frustrated with their child and don't know how to handle it or to beat discipline into their child. I don't have any children, but I would never spank mine, even though I was spanked by my mom during childhood. It does hurt personal relationships a lot, although in most of the cases I don't think it has longterm effects. Emotional abuse is also undermining personal relations and it can cause more harm than good, especially if the child is in their teen years. Raising your voice, slowly explaining things to the child and treats if they did good should be prioritized.
zzz_pt
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- zzz_pt
I was spanked quite a bit, got beaten with a belt a couple of times and even a broomstick (only once, after braking a vase while playing with my 6 yo brother, but it broke on my back - I was 12). Of course I don't support it and is probably, even though I can't prove it, one of the reasons why I don't want to have children. Not because I don't like children, but because I don't know how I would behave under in a bad day or while dealing with depression. I would try everything not to spank a son/daughter but I could scream or say whatever nonsense which sometimes is just as hurtful - I have no idea. I'm a very calm and patient guy and never had a fight with anyone for any reason. I only kick a kid while playing football once, when I probably 10 or 12.
A small tap on the bottom is OK, if the parent explains why it happened and makes sure the child understands. But anything more than that, I have can't support, especially slaps to the face. Anything that leaves a mark is inadmissible.
I was the oldest child. My brother didn't have to deal with this as much as I did. Good for him. ^^
Edit: Just to add, because it might leave the impression I was a terror to my parents. I wasn't. I was just a normal kid, best or one of the best in class, always had good grades, liked to sleep and just stay in my corner playing by myself at home. The times I did get beaten were because I would lie about some school thing, I would brake some piece of furniture while playing, I wouldn't eat (that was my biggest issue as a kid) or because I would bring a friend home without asking first (happened 1).
A small tap on the bottom is OK, if the parent explains why it happened and makes sure the child understands. But anything more than that, I have can't support, especially slaps to the face. Anything that leaves a mark is inadmissible.
I was the oldest child. My brother didn't have to deal with this as much as I did. Good for him. ^^
Edit: Just to add, because it might leave the impression I was a terror to my parents. I wasn't. I was just a normal kid, best or one of the best in class, always had good grades, liked to sleep and just stay in my corner playing by myself at home. The times I did get beaten were because I would lie about some school thing, I would brake some piece of furniture while playing, I wouldn't eat (that was my biggest issue as a kid) or because I would bring a friend home without asking first (happened 1).
UKMikey
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- UKMikeyA
- UKMikeyA
I hadn't been aware of him previously but James Dobson's views appear to be widely spread. He appears to be a "spare the rod" type.
- 7,689
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- Rallywgn81
I personally am not for corporal punishment. My dad was pretty free with his hands and temper, and it definitely had an affect on me. As I have grown, I have done a lot to check my anger and to find more constructive to deal with problems. Lashing out in anger does little but create more problems.
As such, I strive hard to keep my head when my children start to push those buttons. My son, 2, is too younger for me to do more than laugh inside at his antics. My daughter, going on 12 on the other hand, is quite good at frustrating myself and her mother. But never have I wanted to put hands on either of them. With one caveat. My daughter when she was1 and half, 2 ish. She bit me hard, out of complete involuntary reaction, I bit her back. I felt miserable about it for quite a long time, she however, never bit anyone again. It's not something I condone, however, I think there can be lessons learned for situations like that for a child. In her case, I dont know that she realized biting hurt until she experienced it.
I dont think the outcome is the same however for spanking. I think that causes far far more damage than it teaches lessons.
As such, I strive hard to keep my head when my children start to push those buttons. My son, 2, is too younger for me to do more than laugh inside at his antics. My daughter, going on 12 on the other hand, is quite good at frustrating myself and her mother. But never have I wanted to put hands on either of them. With one caveat. My daughter when she was1 and half, 2 ish. She bit me hard, out of complete involuntary reaction, I bit her back. I felt miserable about it for quite a long time, she however, never bit anyone again. It's not something I condone, however, I think there can be lessons learned for situations like that for a child. In her case, I dont know that she realized biting hurt until she experienced it.
I dont think the outcome is the same however for spanking. I think that causes far far more damage than it teaches lessons.
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Danoff
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Some people, especially people who are big fans of genetics and genetic superiority, assume that raising a child with a good understand of right and wrong and healthy emotional balance is easy or will naturally occur. And that parenting is not hard - you hit your kids when they step out of line. But then... isn't that where this comes from?
Ultimately it seems like huge portions of society are failing their kids miserably.
Ultimately it seems like huge portions of society are failing their kids miserably.
- 29,834
- a baby, candy, it's like taking.
- TexRex72
I definitely believe those who are victims of physical violence at a young age are more likely to engage in physical violence later in life (which isn't to say that it's a foregone conclusion), but I think there's a lot more at play when it comes to those employed in law enforcement engaging in physical violence, chiefly a culture wherein bad actors are all too often are not held accountable for their actions. Sometimes I wonder if the assurance that nothing will come of it can actually motivate people to act in a manner that they may not "naturally" otherwise.
- 29,834
- a baby, candy, it's like taking.
- TexRex72
Gotcha.
Ehhhhhhh, iunno. I think the way people were raised is definitely a factor there, with no particular emphasis on corporal punishment, and it looks like that's what you were getting at (in hindsight and with your clarification), but I think social media and red meat in traditional media are probably more to blame. It's hard to say as we can't examine either as though it exists in a vacuum.
Keef
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Pretty sure the spanking this is like almost exclusive to boys. It's one of the reasons men tend to be power hungry assholes. Virtually all my male friends got whooped a few times by their boomer parents, and pretty much all the girls never did. Guess which of those two groups turned out to be assholes? Guess which of those two groups have followed that exact same type of nurturing and eventual career paths and positions of power for hundreds of years?
But that doesn't explain why a considerable number of women are on this authority train today. Obviously the violence during childhood has typically been focused on boys, but something else about their raising has also convinced many women that this is the right path.
But that doesn't explain why a considerable number of women are on this authority train today. Obviously the violence during childhood has typically been focused on boys, but something else about their raising has also convinced many women that this is the right path.
- 13,882
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- Neomone
I was listening to a podcast today that was about men retrospectively realising that they had in the past sexually assaulted women. A lot of it seemed to centre around the idea that they weren't given strong, clear instruction around consent and so had looked to society and culture for guidance. And what society and culture says, implicitly but very loudly, is that men are irrepressable horndogs that will take women by force and that if she says no she really means yes and you just have to try harder.
This strikes me as a very similar sort of thing. Children learn very quickly by observing what goes on around them. If they're raised in a society that touts authoritarian solutions to problems then they're going to become authoritarians whether they realise it or not.
If you grow up pounding nails in with a hammer you're unlikely to even look for a nail gun unless someone explicitly points it out, and even then a lot of people will stick with the "traditional" way or just what they're used to because it's comfortable.
I think it's adequately explained if it's assumed that a significant portion of this comes from implicit conditioning by society and culture. I think this also explains why it's so hard to change so many of these things - because even if a significant portion of people are teaching their children in new and better ways, to some extent those lessons are being undone by the residual authoritarianism in the society outside of the parent's control.
Hell, schools are still profoundly authoritarian and children get 10+ years of that for 30-odd hours a week at a highly formative stage.
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Replying to an old comment, I know. But not been around these parts for quite a while, and just had a look through the thread.
I have the unfortunate vantage point of spending the first 11 years of my life in an abusive house hold. My father was abusive towards my mum, verbally and especially violently. Nothing like seeing your mum being pulled up the stairs by her hair on Christmas eve by your father and been given a pasting in full view. My mum left him when I was 11, thankfully, and I left with her.
Those first 11 years of my life, I was often violent towards my peers in school, my temperment was uncontrolled and volatile. My eldest sister and eldest brother was also very violent towards each other as well. I was punished for being violent towards my peers in the form of spankings. Negitivity in my life caused me to act negitivly towards others, because I thought thats how life was back then. Those where my examples. Then recieved that same negative behaviour as a form of punishment.
You are absolutly spot on when you say children learn by observing what goes on around them. Children learn by the example set by the adults charged with their upbringing. If that example is volatile, negative, aggressive and violent. Chances are, those same behaviours will grow inside the child, it normalises those behavious. I have first hand experiance of that.
It wasnt till my mum left and subsequently remarried that I learnt how a loving and healthy family dynamic was supposed to be. Thankfully my behaviour changed for the better as well, and I have not acted in a violent manner towards anyone since my mid teens.
It has however left me with noticable anxiaty in confrontational situations. I feel fear of how others may act/react to things. I dont like people raising their voices/shouting around me, even if it isnt directed towards me. It makes me uncomfortable and I want to run from it. I also struggle with anxiaty in large groups, and have issues sleeping. These are behavious/issues that I have had for as long as I can remember.
I also dont have an active relationship with my father, and have not since I was 13.
My step dad is my real dad to me. He taught me, helped me, supported me, and is always there when I need him. Above all else, he isnt abusive.
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